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"People are just playing it wrong!"

13

Comments

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,267Member Uncommon

    Idk, but I don't think you should review this game until you have pvp'd, which is level 10 minimum.

     

    It doesn't look like many have made it that far (Angry Joe). That's 8-10 hours into the game. 

  • kartoolkartool Hamilton, ONPosts: 472Member Uncommon
    This game has MMO fans who want a next-gen MMO experience and TES fans who want a classic TES experience. It was screwed from the get-go.
  • RebelScum99RebelScum99 Mesa, AZPosts: 1,090Member

    This game will ultimately be judged on its PvP content, to be sure.  But I don't think I've seen any videos or reviews of that particular aspect of the game.  I could be wrong though.  However, if that's the case, and Zenimax hasn't opened that up to folks yet, then it doesn't bode well for the game.  A little too similar to the Ilium fiasco in SWTOR.  None of us realized how horrible an experience that would be up until the point we reached level 50 and found out for ourselves.  

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Idk, but I don't think you should review this game until you have pvp'd, which is level 10 minimum.

     

    It doesn't look like many have made it that far (Angry Joe). That's 8-10 hours into the game. 

    A game must give you something gripping before level 10 or else most won't bother to slog through. Besides if someone doesn't like the core gameplay PVP isn't going to naturally fix that. I was planning to get up to level 10 this weekend and try the PVP but I'm pretty fed up with the game right now and just don't feel like playing. (NDA prevents me from going into the reasons).

     

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RebelScum99
    Originally posted by Yamota

    Well fantasy RPGs are compared to either sandbox Skyrim or linear story-driven Dragon Age/Witcher type gameplay. So the question is, which one of these will ESO live up to. My guess is neither, since it is an MMO and seems to be playing it safe, it will probably be more like linear quest hub MMOs rather than trying to be sandbox, like all Elder Scrolls game have been like.

    And that is the reason I think it will be yet another generic big budget, ThemPark MMO.

    You just proved my point.  Fantasy RPGs are compared to other fantasy RPGs.  This particular MMO is STILL being compared to other fantasy RPGs, as you just did.  Instead of comparing it to other MMOs.  

    ESO should be compared to other fantasy setting games just as SWTOR was compared to KOTOR and other sci-fi games INCLUDING sci-fi MMOs. LOTRO was compared to the SRPG LOTR games as well as EQ and DaoC because they are fantasy.

    ESO has already been compared to fantasy MMOs and has been found wanting. It lacks depth, it lacks engrossing combat and it becomes boring fast, toss on top of it using an existing IP and it doesn't even compare to them.

    It doesn't stack up in either respect and THAT is why you don't want those types of comparisons. You want to limit that as much as possible because its the only way the game looks good. Well guess what? The game its based off of, DaoC was FAR BETTER, it had DEPTH to it and decent combat at least.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,267Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by bcbully

    Idk, but I don't think you should review this game until you have pvp'd, which is level 10 minimum.

     

    It doesn't look like many have made it that far (Angry Joe). That's 8-10 hours into the game. 

    A game must give you something gripping before level 10 or else most won't bother to slog through. Besides if someone doesn't like the core gameplay PVP isn't going to naturally fix that. I was planning to get up to level 10 this weekend and try the PVP but I'm pretty fed up with the game right now and just don't feel like playing. (NDA prevents me from going into the reasons).

     

    PvP is the core game play here in ESO imo. I felt like you pre-cryodiil. In fact I wasn't planning on playing beta again if I had to level to 10 again.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by arieste
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    If people are used to skipping cutscenes and dialogue because it's often not worth it, they may continue to do so in ESO, when maybe they shouldn't.

    I want to respond to this specifically, since this tends to come up a lot.    Yes, some people just skip cutscenes and don't read quests as a hard habit.  But i think that for the vast majority of us, it just depends on the quality.  

     

    I've done over 2,000 quests in EQ2 (which i've been playing for 10 years) and i can tell you that despite this fact, there is very little that will make me read more than 1 out of every 500 of those quest.   The writing is horrid, the lore in general is atrocious and it all makes absolutely no sense in relation to the game i'm playing.  At the same time, I read and soak up every last tidbit of the (very wordy) LoTRO quests - they both read well and help frame the game world.   

     

    The same is true about listening to voiced dialogue/cut-scenes.  I will hang on to word and relish every NPC interaction in TSW, because it is so vibrant and well-written.  But i will spacerbar (skip) virtually all dialogue in SWTOR because it seems to have been written by 12yr-olds for their younger, dumber siblings.  And it has nothing to do with the overall game world either, I think the world of Star Wars is one of the richest and most interesting in existence, but this doesn't change that SWTOR is a horribly written game.   (The relation here is that just because TES is a rich world, doesn't make every TES game have good writing by the virtue of being set there.)

     

    TL;DR - I think more than anything, things come down to the quality of the writing and the relation to the game world.  We all know ESO has hired all these famous actors, but are they reading stuff that's interesting and relevant to the player?   If they are, i don't think people will want to skip cutscenes.     Some of the examples that are being quoted in the articles are pretty awful, but some are quite good, so based on the reviews, I would say that it sounds like it's a bit of both.   

    Well if you're programmed to just skip all quest dialogue in themeparks, you may not know if it's worth it, which is kind of my whole point. I don't know if ESO is "worth it", I'm just outlining a situation where people would be "playing the game wrong" through no fault of the game."

     

    Kind of like Bill Murphy's ESO preview from the other day. He was saying for the first several hours he just ran through it like a typical themepark until he realized that was playing the game "wrong" and then he just started to take it slow and enjoy it.

  • ariestearieste toronto, ONPosts: 3,308Member Common
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    Well if you're programmed to just skip all quest dialogue in themeparks, you may not know if it's worth it, which is kind of my whole point. I don't know if ESO is "worth it", I'm just outlining a situation where people would be "playing the game wrong" through no fault of the game."

    There are ways to prevent skipping dialogue.  If your game's (and i'm not saying that it is) main feature is well-written cut scenes, the onus is on you as a developer to forcefeed a few of them to people in order to get them to see that.  After that, you make them optional and hope that you've hooked people.  If you haven't, well, then you've failed.  

     

    Same thing goes for combat, for other things.  Random example - one of Rift's major features was the actual Rifts (public quest type events), so the game forced you to participate in one very early on, in order to show them off and get you into them.  So that people couldn't say "oh rifts? yeah, i played for 20 levels, never tried one."    

     

    If your games best feature is group dynamics, but you don't give people a reason to group for anything and see that, again, you've failed. 

     

    If you've got good stuff in your game, you better design your early experience to hook people on it.  It goes for cut scenes, any new features, skill system, crafting, questing, exploration etc.    A person having finished the tutorial/introduction needs to say "omg, i want to do more of THAT, because THAT was awesome!"

    If you're a developer, you don't want to leave it to chance that people "play the game right".    Most people will give ANY mmo 5-10 levels of trial.  Even if it's pretty bad.  This is your chance to hook them.      

     

    An example comes to mind from 10 years ago and taking my first steps in EQ2.  There was a newbie area... and in it was a sample of just about every kind of gameplay you'd eventually find in the game.  My friend found a collection piece and immediately said "omg, i am going to do every collection in the game!".    There was a hooked player.  

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  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Originally posted by darkwarhamme

    Unfortunately this is kind of how conversations go on here lately. Nit picking and logical fallacies going on to prove someone is "wrong".

    One thing to know, there is a VERY vocal minority of people that dislike most MMOs. I used to enjoy conversations on here, but the personal attacks and dismissive comments don't help. Strange when reddit can have more civil conversations about MMOs. I hope this changes, but it is pretty much up to the community to do so.

     

    It's the internet brah, and being wrong is serious bidness...

  • d_20d_20 AmsterdamPosts: 756Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RebelScum99 ... But this game, considering the IP it shares, WOULD have been better developed as a straight sandbox with some story elements, if possible.  Making it a themepark game, no matter how great it was for the story, didn't do it any favors for the series it was trying to bring to life, since The Elder Scrolls has always been about open, non-linear gameplay.  

    Even though I'm buying the game, I do agree with this.

    image
  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RebelScum99

    The problem with your reasoning is that much of the negative publicity this game has received isn't due to a lack of  the features that reviewer was looking for.  It's that the reviewer was looking for the wrong features to begin with.  In other words, TESO's major problem is that it's being compared to its own IP.  Many of these reviewers expect you to be able to do everything in TESO that you can do in the single player games.  And, you simply can't in an MMO format.  It doesn't work.  

    That's not to say there aren't valid concerns, because there are.  But TESO's worst enemy isn't that it lacks features, content, or solid gameplay.  It's worst enemy is that it's carrying the Elder Scrolls name, and because of that, people are coming in with unrealistic expectations of what to expect.  

    Zenimax has recreated Tamriel, the world.  But not all the little things that makes Elder Scrolls what it is.  It's unfortunate, because comparing it to other MMOs, it holds up quite well.  Comparing it to the Elder Scrolls IP, it feels like it's lacking, even if they did a good job of re-creating the game world and the atmosphere of the franchise.

    I'm not sandbox apologist. In fact, I've yet to find one outside of Eve that was worth a damn.  But this game, considering the IP it shares, WOULD have been better developed as a straight sandbox with some story elements, if possible.  Making it a themepark game, no matter how great it was for the story, didn't do it any favors for the series it was trying to bring to life, since The Elder Scrolls has always been about open, non-linear gameplay.  

    This is all true but the only reason and let me reiterate the ONLY reason I am going to buy the game is because it has tons of content and that's without knowing the endgame PvE experience.  So in that regard it is unlike all the other MMO's released over the last 7-8 years in that there should be content to keep one busy for a while even if the game itself is mediocre.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member
    If it does not play like Skyrim the rage will be there. It does not matter how the game motivates them.
  • Squeak69Squeak69 Colorado Springs, COPosts: 956Member
    Originally posted by RebelScum99

    The problem with your reasoning is that much of the negative publicity this game has received isn't due to a lack of  the features that reviewer was looking for.  It's that the reviewer was looking for the wrong features to begin with.  In other words, TESO's major problem is that it's being compared to its own IP.  Many of these reviewers expect you to be able to do everything in TESO that you can do in the single player games.  And, you simply can't in an MMO format.  It doesn't work.  

    That's not to say there aren't valid concerns, because there are.  But TESO's worst enemy isn't that it lacks features, content, or solid gameplay.  It's worst enemy is that it's carrying the Elder Scrolls name, and because of that, people are coming in with unrealistic expectations of what to expect.  

    Zenimax has recreated Tamriel, the world.  But not all the little things that makes Elder Scrolls what it is.  It's unfortunate, because comparing it to other MMOs, it holds up quite well.  Comparing it to the Elder Scrolls IP, it feels like it's lacking, even if they did a good job of re-creating the game world and the atmosphere of the franchise.

    I'm not sandbox apologist. In fact, I've yet to find one outside of Eve that was worth a damn.  But this game, considering the IP it shares, WOULD have been better developed as a straight sandbox with some story elements, if possible.  Making it a themepark game, no matter how great it was for the story, didn't do it any favors for the series it was trying to bring to life, since The Elder Scrolls has always been about open, non-linear gameplay.  

    wait i shouldnt be compareing it to the IP it is based on, then explain to me what the point of baseing it on that IP is then.

    im not looking at playing the game just cause its another generic fantasy MMO i got hundreds of thsoe out there, i wanted to play it because i wanted to play a elderscrolls game online with friends. 

    if you arnt willing to go all the way and make it look, fill and PLAY like a elder scrolls game then dont ruin one of my faverite IPs in order to get a few more bucks.

    i wish they had just made another installment of elderscroll and put co-op in it.

    F2P may be the way of the future, but ya know they dont make them like they used toimage
    Proper Grammer & spelling are extra, corrections will be LOL at.

  • xpiherxpiher Indianapolis, INPosts: 3,311Member
    Originally posted by RebelScum99

    The problem with your reasoning is that much of the negative publicity this game has received isn't due to a lack of  the features that reviewer was looking for.  It's that the reviewer was looking for the wrong features to begin with.  In other words, TESO's major problem is that it's being compared to its own IP.  Many of these reviewers expect you to be able to do everything in TESO that you can do in the single player games.  And, you simply can't in an MMO format.  It doesn't work.  

    Thats simply not true. Zenimax/Bethesda could have easily made the game closer to an actual ESO title by making the game more of a sandbox and less of a solo MMORPG with a poorman's story. Instead, they went with GW2 with better instancing. 

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  • QuicksandQuicksand Aurora, COPosts: 604Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by RebelScum99
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Even when you compare it to an MMORPG, at least for the first 15 levels, it's pretty bleh. My opinion of course.

    Not my opinion at all.  But everyone has their own feelings about what a solid MMO is supposed to be.

    I agree with Rebel.

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  • Nemesis7884Nemesis7884 ZurichPosts: 880Member Uncommon
    the problem with the critical articles is - they played the game for 5-6 lvls and wrote a review (which is ridicoulos in itself)... I heard/read different reviewers (such as gameinformer) that said the game gets better the longer you play it, further you get...
  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,699Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DMKano

    TESO has fundamental gameplay problems that surfaced in all reviews so far that have nothing to do with it living up to ES single player games.

    Like inability to exit zones without completing quest objectives in early parts of the game.

    This must be one of the most idiotic thing created in any MMO.

    The fact that you cannot leave a zone if you don't complete a quest it's absolutely ridiculous and it goes totally against the TES philosophy of free exploration.

    That's why this game is getting negative reviews.

  • skyline385skyline385 BangalorePosts: 564Member
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Originally posted by DMKano

    TESO has fundamental gameplay problems that surfaced in all reviews so far that have nothing to do with it living up to ES single player games.

    Like inability to exit zones without completing quest objectives in early parts of the game.

    This must be one of the most idiotic thing created in any MMO.

    The fact that you cannot leave a zone if you don't complete a quest it's absolutely ridiculous and it goes totally against the TES philosophy of free exploration.

    That's why this game is getting negative reviews.

    Every MMO has starter zones. And story quests essential to those zones are compulsory. You can't simple leave it unless you complete them. It's the same case here. But go on, continue bashing the game for things which are present in almost every other MMO.

    image
  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Behind you, ORPosts: 1,520Member Uncommon

    The amount of misinformation and misleading opinions I see on this site really doesn't amaze me.

    People that played any ES games should be pleased. If not, then you expect too much.

    It is exactly what I expected and more.

    image
    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,699Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by skyline385
    Originally posted by ste2000
     

    Every MMO has starter zones. And story quests essential to those zones are compulsory. You can't simple leave it unless you complete them. It's the same case here. But go on, continue bashing the game for things which are present in almost every other MMO.

    Really? What sort of MMO do you play.

    Name a MMO that doesn't allow you to exit a zone and enter another zone if you don't complete a certain quest.

  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Behind you, ORPosts: 1,520Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Originally posted by skyline385
    Originally posted by ste2000
     

    Every MMO has starter zones. And story quests essential to those zones are compulsory. You can't simple leave it unless you complete them. It's the same case here. But go on, continue bashing the game for things which are present in almost every other MMO.

    Really? What sort of MMO do you play.

    Name a MMO that doesn't allow you to exit a zone and enter another zone if you don't complete a certain quest.

    ALL of them if YOU interact with the zone's finale quest.....

    image
    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • otacuotacu BolzanoPosts: 547Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    I kind of agree and disagree OP. Yes, games are directed experiences. For instance if a themepark wanted you to play more like an TES game, they could have quests that are more than 30 feet away from where you got it. If ESO does that, that will help.

     

    However, we ARE influenced by things outside of the game's control. If people are used to skipping cutscenes and dialogue because it's often not worth it, they may continue to do so in ESO, when maybe they shouldn't.

    The OP is right.

    If forx example the dialogue and cutscenes shouldn't be skipped the game should direct the player by making it worth to watch and hear them.

    There should be important info inside that should you not know it you will get much less experience or cannot complete a quest at all. Instead it's just the generic and boring dialogue nobody cares and we have seen/heard thousand of times..... and because of this it's content skipped.

    Don't blame the players. Zenimax didn't make cutscenes/dialogue worth watching/hearing.

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by otacu
    Originally posted by Holophonist

    I kind of agree and disagree OP. Yes, games are directed experiences. For instance if a themepark wanted you to play more like an TES game, they could have quests that are more than 30 feet away from where you got it. If ESO does that, that will help.

     

    However, we ARE influenced by things outside of the game's control. If people are used to skipping cutscenes and dialogue because it's often not worth it, they may continue to do so in ESO, when maybe they shouldn't.

    The OP is right.

    If forx example the dialogue and cutscenes shouldn't be skipped the game should direct the player by making it worth to watch and hear them.

    There should be important info inside that should you not know it you will get much less experience or cannot complete a quest at all. Instead it's just the generic and boring dialogue nobody cares and we have seen/heard thousand of times..... and because of this it's content skipped.

    Don't blame the players. Zenimax didn't make cutscenes/dialogue worth watching/hearing.

    So the answer is to REQUIRE that people watch the cutscenes in order to see tangible benefits in-game? No, I don't think so. I'm a walking example of why the OP is wrong. At first I was rushing through quests and skipping dialogue because I assumed it was just another themepark, and to some extent it is. But because I watched Bill Murphy's review wherein he suggests playing it like a TES game, I decided to slow it down and pay attention to the quests and it WAS more enjoyable. The bottom line is there ARE things outside of the game's control that dictate how we play, and that kind of sucks.

     

    So I'll say again, OP is kind of right and kind of wrong. Games are directed experiences and if ESO wants us to play a certain way, they should do things that nudge us in that way, but at the same time some things are out of their control, like a person's perception of the game.

  • JacobinJacobin Toronto, ONPosts: 697Member Uncommon

    What the reviewers don't like is that the game is completely 'on rails' which is bad for Elder Scrolls fans AND for MMO players.

     

    The quests themselves may be decently written and the VO is good, but the actual quests basically consist of running from objective to objective without actually doing much.

     

    'Kill 10 rats' quests may be lame, but at least you have to actually do something. The reviewers don't like how ESO consists of running from objective to objective without actually having to do much of anything at all.

     

    They are playing for like 5-10 hours and feel like they haven't encountered anything interesting.

  • SEANMCADSEANMCAD Houston, TXPosts: 5,348Member

    From reading some of these replies it appears this is what a gamer is 'supposed' to do.

    Gamer: 'I really like exploring'

    Game: 'then dont take the quest that gives youuber XP, go hang out at the bar and stare at the wall'

    Correlation does not imply causation

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