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Why I do not want F2P!

JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon

Everywhere I look I see people screaming for F2P for ESO. I see it on Youtube, Reddit, the beta forums and on MMORPG.com.

Lets take a step back and review what happened with SWTOR. Here is a segment of an article from when SWTOR went live with F2P. Some things have changed now, but this was the original incarnation of their system.

 

SWTOR - "What do you get for free? Two character slots, two hotkey bars, an in-game currency cap, and access to the full class quest lines. These kinds of restrictions are fairly standard with other MMO F2P models.

What don’t you get? No ability to send mail, no priority on login queue, reduced crafting capability, inability to equip high-end (Artifact-level) gear, no bank access, restricted chat access, inability to loot high level gear from group instance, slower experience gain, higher vendor costs, no rested exp, and the list goes on. Of course, many of these features can be purchased (some only temporarily) through the Cartel system. Though some of these restrictions are commonplace among other MMOs, all together these leave you with a very confining experience of a game they are trying to get you to pay full price for.

Once you do give in and spend at least $5 on Cartel Coins (SWTOR’s microtransaction currency) you get bumped up to Preferred status. This grants you some banks space, complete chat access, a second crafting profession, a higher credit cap and a few more perks. But all those other restrictions listed above are still firmly in place."

 

Now is that really what you are looking for in your MMO? I am sure several of us can cite less extreme examples of F2P titles and probably more extreme ones as well... So this example makes for a happy medium to judge things by.

I can't think of anything more annoying and more immersion killing than the F2P model. Constantly being bombarded with messages about how much easier my life could be if I just bought more stuff from their shop. Getting emails about this weeks deals in their item shop. Having to stare at the permanent shop button plastered on my UI.

I for one, would much rather pay 15 dollars a month for even an average game than have an item shop built around the very core of the game. These shops are deceptive and in the long run they end up costing many players much more than 15 dollars a month. They also introduce the entire "play to win" aspect to the conversation. So the moment that people screaming for F2P get their way, you have a whole new group of people screaming "omg this game is pay to win now".

The longer I am around for MMO games, the more it feels like everyone is overly entitled and just plan cheap.

If you are unsure about the game. Wait a month, hell wait 2 or 3 months. Let other people give you real reviews on how the game fleshes out. Not these ridiculous reviews we are getting right now, where people have barely pushed past the tutorial part of the game.

Thanks,

J

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Comments

  • lunatiquezlunatiquez San Fransisco, CAPosts: 381Member

    You pick SWTOR as an example of F2P game, of all titles?

    Have you tried AION/Rift/Blade & Soul (CN) or even TSW & GW2?

    You won't see restrictions on those titles

    I do agree that most F2P games are P2W though

  • squalleonahasqualleonaha miss, ONPosts: 211Member

    well, i think its about personal like.

    however i think F2P model is better. Why?

    its the number of people. if the game F2P , you'll see ton of people while in P2P you have less people 

    just take a look at game like LOTRO. it got beat hard by WOW in P2P and it about to die. however when it changed to F2P. its draw in people, the game become live and then people spend on the cash shop and actualy bring the game back. many other game like LOL or DOTA let you see millions of player online and the cash shop is enough to make the company rich.

    when playing MMO, i prefer seeing and interact with many people. otherwise , i'll just grab an x1 or PS4 to play single-multi player game.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    You can actually pay $15/month in SWTOR to remove all the restrictions.
  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by inemosz

    You pick SWTOR as an example of F2P game, of all titles?

    Have you tried AION/Rift/Blade & Soul (CN) or even TSW & GW2?

    You won't see restrictions on those titles

    I do agree that most F2P games are P2W though

     

    It makes as good of an example as anything else. Several of the titles you spoke of are not popular in the NA market at all. RIFT has a fair following, but I dislike their shop almost as much as SWTOR. GW2 is the only one that stands out from the crowd, but it is currently an anomaly and we have no metrics on how much money it pulls in.

    The fact of the matter is - SWTOR is making money and I find that scary. If Zenimax is going to copy any other format out there, who knows which one it will be. Through their entire development process they have been very adamant about using the subscription model and why that model has merit.

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    You can actually pay $15/month in SWTOR to remove all the restrictions.

    Yes you can, but you still get to see that shop pop up every time you log in. You still get bombed with emails about sales and paying more on top of your subscription. You still see mounts, cosmetic items and all kinds of other nifty quality of gaming life items in that shop that are not available to you even as a subscriber.

    I want a game I can enjoy. Not a game that is trying to do nothing but be a printing press for publisher. There has to be balance.

  • squalleonahasqualleonaha miss, ONPosts: 211Member

    i see its hard for ESO go F2P at all because the company already very clear on what they want.

    they already  followed box sell+ sub $15 + cash shop which willnet them enought money for 1-2 years. after that they'll just living on Fans base like FF14 or SWTOR,

    they'll try to sell more box when ps4 and x1 version comeout. but i think they hardly get new sub b/c console player is more like kids and teenager, they dont have much cash to spend.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by inemosz

    You pick SWTOR as an example of F2P game, of all titles?

    Have you tried AION/Rift/Blade & Soul (CN) or even TSW & GW2?

    You won't see restrictions on those titles

    I do agree that most F2P games are P2W though

    Fair point but ESO is more like SWTOR than those other titles. Big budget  game that needs to make its money back at least. I'm sure if they go F2P it'll be nickle and dime heavy freemium on the SWTOR model.

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Dublin, OHPosts: 3,415Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by inemosz

    You pick SWTOR as an example of F2P game, of all titles?

    Have you tried AION/Rift/Blade & Soul (CN) or even TSW & GW2?

    You won't see restrictions on those titles

    I do agree that most F2P games are P2W though

    Fair point but ESO is more like SWTOR than those other titles. Big budget  game that needs to make its money back at least. I'm sure if they go F2P it'll be nickle and dime heavy freemium on the SWTOR model.

    oh really?

    How big is their budget?

    I'm just curious because they never announced how much ESO cost to make so... I'm wondering how you got this insider information, and what it might be.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    l.

    oh really?

    How big is their budget?

    I'm just curious because they never announced how much ESO cost to make so... I'm wondering how you got this insider information, and what it might be.

    http://www.ubergizmo.com/2014/01/the-elder-scrolls-online-rumored-to-have-cost-200-million/

     

    Hardly "insider information"

    Sure it's a "rumor" and you could dispute the exact figure but I'm sure the ballpark is right. It wasn't a cheap game to make.

     

  • YizleYizle Atlanta, GAPosts: 517Member
    Originally posted by inemosz

    You pick SWTOR as an example of F2P game, of all titles?

    Have you tried AION/Rift/Blade & Soul (CN) or even TSW & GW2?

    You won't see restrictions on those titles

    I do agree that most F2P games are P2W though

    Show me the P2W on Rift

  • Laughing-manLaughing-man Dublin, OHPosts: 3,415Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    l.

    oh really?

    How big is their budget?

    I'm just curious because they never announced how much ESO cost to make so... I'm wondering how you got this insider information, and what it might be.

    http://www.ubergizmo.com/2014/01/the-elder-scrolls-online-rumored-to-have-cost-200-million/

     

    Hardly "insider information"

    Sure it's a "rumor" and you could dispute the exact figure but I'm sure the ballpark is right. It wasn't a cheap game to make.

     

    Did you not see how they responded to that by essentially making fun of it?

    You are waaaay out of the loop.

    http://www.p4rgaming.com/zenimax-debunks-elder-scrolls-online-200m-budget-rumor-we-couldnt-have-wasted-that-much-money/

    They didn't even spend REMOTELY 200 million.  That is a completely fake number, and you really shouldn't continue to spread it.  :-(

     

    Edit:  My article also states that they have never released ANY actual data on how much it had cost to produce.  Hence my certainty in the fact that you were incorrect.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    *shrug* I don't know. You could be right. I hadn't seen the article you posted. Anyway this is all just wild speculation about something that may happen (F2P) but I'm  pretty sure they haven't decided on yet. The game doesn't look "cheap" and all that top notch voice acting doesn't work cheap. I doubt they're going to ever have a super generous F2P system ( I honestly don't know how a game like Rift even makes a profit although games like that are nice from player's perspective.)
  • VelocinoxVelocinox Old Folks Home, CAPosts: 812Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jyiiga

    Everywhere I look I see people screaming for F2P for ESO. I see it on Youtube, Reddit, the beta forums and on MMORPG.com.

    Lets take a step back and review what happened with SWTOR. Here is a segment of an article from when SWTOR went live with F2P. Some things have changed now, but this was the original incarnation of their system.

     

    SWTOR - "What do you get for free? Two character slots, two hotkey bars, an in-game currency cap, and access to the full class quest lines. These kinds of restrictions are fairly standard with other MMO F2P models.

    What don’t you get? No ability to send mail, no priority on login queue, reduced crafting capability, inability to equip high-end (Artifact-level) gear, no bank access, restricted chat access, inability to loot high level gear from group instance, slower experience gain, higher vendor costs, no rested exp, and the list goes on. Of course, many of these features can be purchased (some only temporarily) through the Cartel system. Though some of these restrictions are commonplace among other MMOs, all together these leave you with a very confining experience of a game they are trying to get you to pay full price for.

    Once you do give in and spend at least $5 on Cartel Coins (SWTOR’s microtransaction currency) you get bumped up to Preferred status. This grants you some banks space, complete chat access, a second crafting profession, a higher credit cap and a few more perks. But all those other restrictions listed above are still firmly in place."

     

    Now is that really what you are looking for in your MMO? I am sure several of us can cite less extreme examples of F2P titles and probably more extreme ones as well... So this example makes for a happy medium to judge things by.

    I can't think of anything more annoying and more immersion killing than the F2P model. Constantly being bombarded with messages about how much easier my life could be if I just bought more stuff from their shop. Getting emails about this weeks deals in their item shop. Having to stare at the permanent shop button plastered on my UI.

    I for one, would much rather pay 15 dollars a month for even an average game than have an item shop built around the very core of the game. These shops are deceptive and in the long run they end up costing many players much more than 15 dollars a month. They also introduce the entire "play to win" aspect to the conversation. So the moment that people screaming for F2P get their way, you have a whole new group of people screaming "omg this game is pay to win now".

    The longer I am around for MMO games, the more it feels like everyone is overly entitled and just plan cheap.

    If you are unsure about the game. Wait a month, hell wait 2 or 3 months. Let other people give you real reviews on how the game fleshes out. Not these ridiculous reviews we are getting right now, where people have barely pushed past the tutorial part of the game.

    Thanks,

    J

    Your point is entirely moot.

     

    If you don't want to put up with all those limits... then subscribe. Almost every triple-A F2P MMO has a subscription model that removes all those nickle and dime limitations. Use that, and stop trying to exclude the F2P option for those that prefer it.

     

    For the record, since you use SWeaTOR as your example, they are one of the top grossing F2P games currently running. They aren't going to turn away from that business model now. (Especially since all of the big talking subscription fans left them high and dry only a few months after they launched.)

     

    There is nothing wrong with choice. Or do you feel you're entitled to decide how businesses make their profit and how other people enjoy their games? Entitlement is always what people cry when they are talking about other people, not what they cry when it's their entitlement.

     

    Besides, I hate to break it to you, but TESO will have a cash shop soon subscription model or not. So you're going to pay the sub and still be told how much better the game will be if you just spent a little more. Welcome to MMO's of the twenty-teens, get used to them.

     

    'Sandbox MMO' is a PTSD trigger word for anyone who has the experience to know that anonymous players invariably use a 'sandbox' in the same manner a housecat does.


    When your head is stuck in the sand, your ass becomes the only recognizable part of you.


    No game is more fun than the one you can't play, and no game is more boring than one which you've become familiar.


    How to become a millionaire:
    Start with a billion dollars and make an MMO.

  • EntinerintEntinerint brooklyn, NYPosts: 843Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Laughing-man
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Laughing-man

    l.

    oh really?

    How big is their budget?

    I'm just curious because they never announced how much ESO cost to make so... I'm wondering how you got this insider information, and what it might be.

    http://www.ubergizmo.com/2014/01/the-elder-scrolls-online-rumored-to-have-cost-200-million/

     

    Hardly "insider information"

    Sure it's a "rumor" and you could dispute the exact figure but I'm sure the ballpark is right. It wasn't a cheap game to make.

     

    Did you not see how they responded to that by essentially making fun of it?

    You are waaaay out of the loop.

    http://www.p4rgaming.com/zenimax-debunks-elder-scrolls-online-200m-budget-rumor-we-couldnt-have-wasted-that-much-money/

    They didn't even spend REMOTELY 200 million.  That is a completely fake number, and you really shouldn't continue to spread it.  :-(

     

    Edit:  My article also states that they have never released ANY actual data on how much it had cost to produce.  Hence my certainty in the fact that you were incorrect.

    They never responded.

     

    The debunk was a joke, not perpetrated by ZOS.  ZOS nor Bethesda ever reacted to the rumor.

     

    But let's do some quick math.  The game has been in development since 2007, so this is year 7.  There are 250 devs at least.  At 50k a year (extreme low end salary for a AAA game dev, even the lowest on the totem pole would like be paid more), not even factoring health, taxes and benefits. 

    That right there is 87.5 million.

     

    Then let's start factoring in office leasing, equipment fees, server costs, software licensing, catering, R&D, marketing, voice-over talent, studio time, legal fees, Christmas bonuses and let's not forget, the entire setting up of a brand new company.

     

    Now 200 million doesn't seem too farfetched, now does it?

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by Jyiiga
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    You can actually pay $15/month in SWTOR to remove all the restrictions.

    Yes you can, but you still get to see that shop pop up every time you log in. You still get bombed with emails about sales and paying more on top of your subscription. You still see mounts, cosmetic items and all kinds of other nifty quality of gaming life items in that shop that are not available to you even as a subscriber.

    I want a game I can enjoy. Not a game that is trying to do nothing but be a printing press for publisher. There has to be balance.

    You still going to have that even in subscription games.

    Just because games are subscription don't mean they don't have a cash shop

  • lunatiquezlunatiquez San Fransisco, CAPosts: 381Member
    Originally posted by Yizle
    Originally posted by inemosz

    You pick SWTOR as an example of F2P game, of all titles?

    Have you tried AION/Rift/Blade & Soul (CN) or even TSW & GW2?

    You won't see restrictions on those titles

    I do agree that most F2P games are P2W though

    Show me the P2W on Rift

    Well, I said most, in fact I'm defending those titles. I'm a fan of those titles, as they aren't P2W. It's been a while since I logged in to Aion though, so i have no idea how is it now.

    I'll be a happy man if ESO can go B2P like TSW in the future. No need to F2P, just B2P.

  • Allacore69Allacore69 Casselberry, FLPosts: 839Member


    Originally posted by Velocinox
    Originally posted by Jyiiga Everywhere I look I see people screaming for F2P for ESO. I see it on Youtube, Reddit, the beta forums and on MMORPG.com. Lets take a step back and review what happened with SWTOR. Here is a segment of an article from when SWTOR went live with F2P. Some things have changed now, but this was the original incarnation of their system.   SWTOR - "What do you get for free? Two character slots, two hotkey bars, an in-game currency cap, and access to the full class quest lines. These kinds of restrictions are fairly standard with other MMO F2P models. What don’t you get? No ability to send mail, no priority on login queue, reduced crafting capability, inability to equip high-end (Artifact-level) gear, no bank access, restricted chat access, inability to loot high level gear from group instance, slower experience gain, higher vendor costs, no rested exp, and the list goes on. Of course, many of these features can be purchased (some only temporarily) through the Cartel system. Though some of these restrictions are commonplace among other MMOs, all together these leave you with a very confining experience of a game they are trying to get you to pay full price for. Once you do give in and spend at least $5 on Cartel Coins (SWTOR’s microtransaction currency) you get bumped up to Preferred status. This grants you some banks space, complete chat access, a second crafting profession, a higher credit cap and a few more perks. But all those other restrictions listed above are still firmly in place."   Now is that really what you are looking for in your MMO? I am sure several of us can cite less extreme examples of F2P titles and probably more extreme ones as well... So this example makes for a happy medium to judge things by. I can't think of anything more annoying and more immersion killing than the F2P model. Constantly being bombarded with messages about how much easier my life could be if I just bought more stuff from their shop. Getting emails about this weeks deals in their item shop. Having to stare at the permanent shop button plastered on my UI. I for one, would much rather pay 15 dollars a month for even an average game than have an item shop built around the very core of the game. These shops are deceptive and in the long run they end up costing many players much more than 15 dollars a month. They also introduce the entire "play to win" aspect to the conversation. So the moment that people screaming for F2P get their way, you have a whole new group of people screaming "omg this game is pay to win now". The longer I am around for MMO games, the more it feels like everyone is overly entitled and just plan cheap. If you are unsure about the game. Wait a month, hell wait 2 or 3 months. Let other people give you real reviews on how the game fleshes out. Not these ridiculous reviews we are getting right now, where people have barely pushed past the tutorial part of the game. Thanks, J
    Your point is entirely moot.

     

    If you don't want to put up with all those limits... then subscribe. Almost every triple-A F2P MMO has a subscription model that removes all those nickle and dime limitations. Use that, and stop trying to exclude the F2P option for those that prefer it.

     

    For the record, since you use SWeaTOR as your example, they are one of the top grossing F2P games currently running. They aren't going to turn away from that business model now. (Especially since all of the big talking subscription fans left them high and dry only a few months after they launched.)

     

    There is nothing wrong with choice. Or do you feel you're entitled to decide how businesses make their profit and how other people enjoy their games? Entitlement is always what people cry when they are talking about other people, not what they cry when it's their entitlement.

     

    Besides, I hate to break it to you, but TESO will have a cash shop soon subscription model or not. So you're going to pay the sub and still be told how much better the game will be if you just spent a little more. Welcome to MMO's of the twenty-teens, get used to them.

     



    Okay, i'm confused. Where, ever, did it say, anywhere, that their will be a cash shop?

    Oh and by the way, Neverwinter is on par with SWTOR. Both games have 2 million + playing. Check your facts.

    image

  • XssivXssiv Haskell, NJPosts: 359Member

    ESO should have followed GW2's B2P model.  

    This would have made sense financially for ES fans who don't normally play MMO's and I'm sure most people who are on the fence about the game would be more willing to give it a try if it was B2P.

     

    B2P also helps to prevent the sudden population drop off that many sub games experience after the first 30-60 days.  

     

     

  • goboygogoboygo Posts: 792Member Uncommon

    Here is why I don't want F2P.  I have a job.  I'm not a kid, I don't want people to give me free stuff nor do I want someone else to pay my way.   I don't want to have to make a purchasing decision on 100's of items that will end up costing a fortune.

     

    I don't want developers designing my gaming experience around the limitations of F2P and steering me in frustration to spend more and more money, to "Speed" up my leveling.  Or to "increase" my chance of success at something. Or to make me more "effective" at PvP, all for an ongoing and uncapped cost.

     

    I want the entire game for one set price.  Computer games are DIRT cheap.  Stop being cheap.

  • Aldous.HuxleyAldous.Huxley Monticello, MNPosts: 418Member
    Originally posted by goboygo

    Here is why I don't want F2P.  I have a job.  I'm not a kid, I don't want people to give me free stuff nor do I want someone else to pay my way.   I don't want to have to make a purchasing decision on 100's of items that will end up costing a fortune.

     

    I don't want developers designing my gaming experience around the limitations of F2P and steering me in frustration to spend more and more money, to "Speed" up my leveling.  Or to "increase" my chance of success at something. Or to make me more "effective" at PvP, all for an ongoing and uncapped cost.

     

    I want the entire game for one set price.  Computer games are DIRT cheap.  Stop being cheap.

    This ↑

    And also, why as a paying customer should I have to support a ftp gamers playtime. I don't mind subsidizing food & shelter or medical treatment for the needy, but games... Really?

  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Velocinox

    Your point is entirely moot.

     

    If you don't want to put up with all those limits... then subscribe. Almost every triple-A F2P MMO has a subscription model that removes all those nickle and dime limitations. Use that, and stop trying to exclude the F2P option for those that prefer it.

     

    For the record, since you use SWeaTOR as your example, they are one of the top grossing F2P games currently running. They aren't going to turn away from that business model now. (Especially since all of the big talking subscription fans left them high and dry only a few months after they launched.)

     

    There is nothing wrong with choice. Or do you feel you're entitled to decide how businesses make their profit and how other people enjoy their games? Entitlement is always what people cry when they are talking about other people, not what they cry when it's their entitlement.

     

    Besides, I hate to break it to you, but TESO will have a cash shop soon subscription model or not. So you're going to pay the sub and still be told how much better the game will be if you just spent a little more. Welcome to MMO's of the twenty-teens, get used to them.

     

    The point is not moot so I will keep my reply short. Even after you subscribe (as I pointed out before) many of the annoyances of their model still remain. That is why I still avoid playing it to this day. I am entitled to one thing, to vote with my wallet, which I have done with SWTOR. The group of us that are interested in the sub model, which is a sizable group, can only hope that Zenimax is serious about what they have said.

  • SuperNickSuperNick CambridgePosts: 460Member

    Games go F2P because they couldn't succeed as P2P. I don't see why they are seen as shining beacons of light in the industry.

    This usually means they are already old games which are just trying to breath life into a title they couldn't make float.. That doesn't sound like a good game, that sounds like a last ditch effort. It's like whoa great, you get a failed game for free now, let's all hop on board.

    Games that get released as F2P from the get-go are usually incredibly mediocre too. Neverwinter Online was arguably one of the biggest budget F2P titles released in recent times and it still failed to move above mediocre. Why? Because it was built on a F2P model. Things got sacrificed hard and you can tell instantly in game. Guild Wars 2 was released as free-to-play but look at the state of that game.. it's barely evolved an inch since release, they clearly don't have the money to evolve it so give you piece meal content in the form of a new dungeon and some new items every now and then.

    ESO and WildStar already have hugely successful foundations built, if they can continue with regular content and improvements, I see no reason they can't be solid stable hits in the market.

     

     

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 2,587Member
    Originally posted by goboygo

    Here is why I don't want F2P.  I have a job.  I'm not a kid, I don't want people to give me free stuff nor do I want someone else to pay my way.   I don't want to have to make a purchasing decision on 100's of items that will end up costing a fortune.

     

    I don't want developers designing my gaming experience around the limitations of F2P and steering me in frustration to spend more and more money, to "Speed" up my leveling.  Or to "increase" my chance of success at something. Or to make me more "effective" at PvP, all for an ongoing and uncapped cost.

     

    I want the entire game for one set price.  Computer games are DIRT cheap.  Stop being cheap.

    +1

    In additional you want to have a quality community and not a game hopper community.

  • They're already locking content behind a paywall despite having a sub fee.

  • SuperNickSuperNick CambridgePosts: 460Member
    Originally posted by Axxar

    They're already locking content behind a paywall despite having a sub fee.

    What content is that? A race which looks identical to the Breton and Nord, shares racials with them and doesn't even provide a starter zone? The best unique thing you'll find is perhaps Imperial will have +1% increased negotiation.

    Sounds like a skin to me.

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