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New data settles it, F2P makes much more money than P2P

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  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Yes. But the strategy did depend on enough hype & marketing to get that initial year of box sales & subs ... otherwise, just skip to stage 2 with a hybrid F2P/sub/cash shop system.

    Personally with so many games, and already turned F2P MMOs, i won't ever sub again.

    That's the reason many people hate F2P.  While you can play for free.  Many people need to pay way more if they want to experience the full game.

    Take atlantica online for example.  My favorite turn based mmorpg.

    You "can" play for free.  But if want to pvp... (sorry 15$/month else you can't view people's health point and guarantee lossing)

    You "can" level without exp boost, but it only take 2000 hours to reach max level... Better use exp boost so it only take 1000 hours.

    If you want to do that really hard dungeon.... Better spend 1000$ else your gear won't be good enough to do it!

    Take SWTOR for example.  The chart is saying half of the people paid more than 40$ a month... Does that sound right?

    I get it you dont' mind float game to game.  But some of us do find a game we like and want to keep playing it but realizing how much money we need to pay.

  • GaendricGaendric Posts: 449Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by Gaendric
      Agreed.

    Hopefully we will get more big budget F2P titles without P2W elements and F2P will finally leave the "bad games" stigma behind.

    You can't, as you only get what you pay for.

     

    Whales in themselves won't pay freebies through, as there's little loyalty to game hoppers. They're not there to add to a game, they're there to only take. And that's what kills F2P games in the end.

     

    WoW is unique that Blizzard can't change it's pay model, but it's a haven for the smartest game shoppers online.

    I prefer sub games. So yeah I get what I pay for.

    But to your argument: Yes, WE get what we pay for collectively.

    I have in fact posted several times that freeloaders DO negatively influence game budgets and thus quality. 

    We are in agreement on that.

     

    I just don't think it outright kills F2P games. F2P also has advantages that influence things like barriers to entry and customer acquisition costs.

    You can't only list the negatives while ignoring the positives. It's not as black&white as some people imply (on both sides of the argument).

     

    In any case we will very likely see a new generation of bigger F2P titles and wishing them failure just because we personally don't like the model is in my opinion not the way to go.

    (current F2P titles are mostly a bad basis to extrapolate from anyway, many of them weren't even made for F2P, or are quick money grab shots.)

     

    I do think the really successful titles will be more likely hybrids and not pure F2P. We don't totally disagree there either.

     

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Gaendric

    I just don't think it outright kills F2P games. F2P also has advantages that influence things like barriers to entry and customer acquisition costs.

    You can't only list the negatives while ignoring the positives. It's not as black&white as some people imply (on both sides of the argument).

     

    It kills them like a cancer kills it's host.

     

    Have enough cancer cells, it spreads. Next thing folks know it's at stage IV and the host begins to die...it sucks the life out.

     

    That's how the games die. It's slow, but it's one drop of lifeblood at a time. For not only did the cancer fed on the host, the host also fed on the cancer.

     

    Parasites kill each other in the end.

  • GaendricGaendric Posts: 449Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by Gaendric

    I just don't think it outright kills F2P games. F2P also has advantages that influence things like barriers to entry and customer acquisition costs.

    You can't only list the negatives while ignoring the positives. It's not as black&white as some people imply (on both sides of the argument).

     

    It kills them like a cancer kills it's host.

     

    Have enough cancer cells, it spreads. Next thing folks know it's at stage IV and the host begins to die...it sucks the life out.

     

    That's how the games die. It's slow, but it's one drop of lifeblood at a time. For not only did the cancer fed on the host, the host also fed on the cancer.

     

    Parasites kill each other in the end.

    That's one way to put it.

    I respectfully disagree.

     

  • plat0nicplat0nic new york, NYPosts: 301Member
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.

     

    Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.

    You are right sir. As long as it is not P2W I am all for P2P.

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  • GestankfaustGestankfaust Behind you, ORPosts: 1,522Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by plat0nic
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.

     

    Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.

    You are right sir. As long as it is not P2W I am all for P2P.

    lol....wow

    F2P offers nothing to the person that likes MMOs the way they were...period.

    Name one F2P game I should be playing?

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    "This may hurt a little, but it's something you'll get used to. Relax....."

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Sunnyvale, CAPosts: 485Member

    There are some smart people working at Carbine and  Zenimax  and yet they didn't go with the free to play model.

    Why?

    1) A good P2P MMO is FAR MORE PROFiTABLE then a free to play MMO. Even league of legends can't touch WoW. They are a money printing machine.

    2) Going pay to play - then buy to play - then free to play will likely bring in more revenue then just starting off as free to play and throwing up pay walls.

    3) Free to Play fans are only look at revenue and not profit. Its true the aggregrate of free to play games brings in more revenue. But video game code is sunk cost. It costs these guys x amount of dollars to code up the game. So its very often then a losing game could be put out there and bring in revenue - because SOME revenue will offset the sunk costs.

    The model everyone WANTS - even league of legends is World of Warcrafts business model. A game so loved that people will pay for even when they aren't playing it much. You aren't going to convince business types Free to Play is where its at. The only major MMO coming out thats free to play is EQ:N and those guys are trying to enslave the game players to design their game..

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Gestankfaust

    F2P offers nothing to the person that likes MMOs the way they were...period.

    +1

     

    EQII went to F2P and we got less than we did with a sub.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Yes. But the strategy did depend on enough hype & marketing to get that initial year of box sales & subs ... otherwise, just skip to stage 2 with a hybrid F2P/sub/cash shop system.

    Personally with so many games, and already turned F2P MMOs, i won't ever sub again.

    That's the reason many people hate F2P.  While you can play for free.  Many people need to pay way more if they want to experience the full game.

    "Many people need to pay"? Most players don't. I guess not as many want to experience the "full" game as one would think.

    In fact, why do i need a full game when i can just move onto to the next game. It is not like I buy all the DLCs, and expansion if i play a single player game.

    And so what if others hate F2P, it is not like i depend on them to have fun.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Gestankfaust
     

     

    F2P offers nothing to the person that likes MMOs the way they were...period.

    Name one F2P game I should be playing?

    Great .. i don't like MMOs the way they were anyway .. so it is all good for me.

    How should i know what you like? Game choices are all personal anyway. One man's fun game is another man's chore and vice versa. I don't know what F2P game you should be playing, nor do i care .. but i know which one is fun for me.

     

  • GaendricGaendric Posts: 449Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gestankfaust
    Originally posted by plat0nic
    Originally posted by boxsnd

    It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.

     

    Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.

    You are right sir. As long as it is not P2W I am all for P2P.

    lol....wow

    F2P offers nothing to the person that likes MMOs the way they were...period.

    Name one F2P game I should be playing?

     

    If you like oldschool MMORPGs then current F2P games prolly won't serve you well. I agree on that. 

     

     

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Gaendric

    If you like oldschool MMORPGs then current F2P games prolly won't serve you well. I agree on that. 

     

     

    Psst...The target audience were P2P customers, and that 800lb gorilla in the room IS P2P.

     

    For F2P to be successful it needs WoW players to "try" their game, and to stay to play...not run back to WoW in 30 days.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Gaendric

     

     

    If you like oldschool MMORPGs then current F2P games prolly won't serve you well. I agree on that. 

     

     

    So the growth of f2p, and the decline of sub-only games is a sign that the majority don't care for oldschool MMORPGs?

    I suppose that is true. Personally, i don't like old school mmorpgs .. newer modern ones are much better games.

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Yes. But the strategy did depend on enough hype & marketing to get that initial year of box sales & subs ... otherwise, just skip to stage 2 with a hybrid F2P/sub/cash shop system.

    Personally with so many games, and already turned F2P MMOs, i won't ever sub again.

    That's the reason many people hate F2P.  While you can play for free.  Many people need to pay way more if they want to experience the full game.

    "Many people need to pay"? Most players don't. I guess not as many want to experience the "full" game as one would think.

    In fact, why do i need a full game when i can just move onto to the next game. It is not like I buy all the DLCs, and expansion if i play a single player game.

    And so what if others hate F2P, it is not like i depend on them to have fun.

     

    I suppose the F2P part are usually solo and leveling phase.  Usually when you reach end game that's where you start to play with people.  That's when the developer are trying to get you to pay.

    In that sense you probably have more fun playing single player game.  Not that I endorse pirating game.  You might as well go play single player game.  In which they make a better single player game compare to mmorpg.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
     

    I suppose the F2P part are usually solo and leveling phase.  Usually when you reach end game that's where you start to play with people.  That's when the developer are trying to get you to pay.

    In that sense you probably have more fun playing single player game.  Not that I endorse pirating game.  You might as well go play single player game.  In which they make a better single player game compare to mmorpg.

    Yes, I play SP games. You are not under the illusion that i only play MMO, do you?

    However, that is no reason not to play *some* MMOs that i like. In fact, i play them as SP games .. and don't tell me this crap about SP games are all better.

    There is no better recent diablo clone in the marvel universe than Marvel Heroes .. because that is the only one (more like a marvel ultimate alliance clone).

    Oh, i have no problem paying for SP games .. i just don't pay for sub-only MMOs.

     

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    Psst...The target audience were P2P customers, and that 800lb gorilla in the room IS P2P. 

    For F2P to be successful it needs WoW players to "try" their game, and to stay to play...not run back to WoW in 30 days.

    Remember, the revenue generating portion of the F2P model is the cash shop, and WoW has one of those.  It isn't "pure" P2P, and hasn't been for a long time.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    Psst...The target audience were P2P customers, and that 800lb gorilla in the room IS P2P. 

    For F2P to be successful it needs WoW players to "try" their game, and to stay to play...not run back to WoW in 30 days.

    Remember, the revenue generating portion of the F2P model is the cash shop, and WoW has one of those.  It isn't "pure" P2P, and hasn't been for a long time.

    yeah .. there is no sub-only game any more ... the only question is whether a game has a free portion .. and even WOW can be played to L20 for free.

     

  • laokokolaokoko TaipeiPosts: 2,003Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laokoko
     

    I suppose the F2P part are usually solo and leveling phase.  Usually when you reach end game that's where you start to play with people.  That's when the developer are trying to get you to pay.

    In that sense you probably have more fun playing single player game.  Not that I endorse pirating game.  You might as well go play single player game.  In which they make a better single player game compare to mmorpg.

    Yes, I play SP games. You are not under the illusion that i only play MMO, do you?

    However, that is no reason not to play *some* MMOs that i like. In fact, i play them as SP games .. and don't tell me this crap about SP games are all better.

    There is no better recent diablo clone in the marvel universe than Marvel Heroes .. because that is the only one (more like a marvel ultimate alliance clone).

    Oh, i have no problem paying for SP games .. i just don't pay for sub-only MMOs.

     

    I'm under the illusion you only care about what you want base on your post.

    Most of your response is like "oh you like that, I don't.  Good thing I don't care about you.  But I still bother to respond"

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Didn't apple just lose a lawsuit for selling apps to children?

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    Psst...The target audience were P2P customers, and that 800lb gorilla in the room IS P2P. 

    For F2P to be successful it needs WoW players to "try" their game, and to stay to play...not run back to WoW in 30 days.

    Remember, the revenue generating portion of the F2P model is the cash shop, and WoW has one of those.  It isn't "pure" P2P, and hasn't been for a long time.

    Difference is WoW doesn't depend on their cash shop to remain open. F2P needs their cash shop to even operate.

  • DoomedfoxDoomedfox Elmhurts, NYPosts: 685Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    reposting the link from another topic:

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-digital-games-market/

    But the point is:

    In the top 10 money making games (and most listed here on MMORPG.com), all but ONE is sub-only (WOW).

    And wow is only #7, and making less than half compared to LoL.

    This pretty much shows that to make money, F2P beats P2P, and often you don't even need a virtual world.

    I suppose its save to assume that the numbers are an average per person right?

    After all to support your claim all the games would need the same amount of players otherwise its just a bad joke to make a statement like yours.

    But wait isnt  that a list that only shows the cashshop income and doesnt factor in the actually income of the subs?

    I dont know man but if i would make a claim i at least would think for a sec about the source i use to back the claim up and a source that does not even show the sub income or takes the total playerbase into consideration is not a source i would use lol

     

  • Entris38Entris38 Somewhere, OHPosts: 323Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Doomedfox
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    reposting the link from another topic:

    http://www.superdataresearch.com/blog/us-digital-games-market/

    But the point is:

    In the top 10 money making games (and most listed here on MMORPG.com), all but ONE is sub-only (WOW).

    And wow is only #7, and making less than half compared to LoL.

    This pretty much shows that to make money, F2P beats P2P, and often you don't even need a virtual world.

    I suppose its save to assume that the numbers are an average per person right?

    After all to support your claim all the games would need the same amount of players otherwise its just a bad joke to make a statement like yours.

    But wait isnt  that a list that only shows the cashshop income and doesnt factor in the actually income of the subs?

    I dont know man but if i would make a claim i at least would think for a sec about the source i use to back the claim up and a source that does not even show the sub income or takes the total playerbase into consideration is not a source i would use lol

     

    Correct, this chart only shows cash shop income, not the sub part of the income. It's been rehashed a few times in this thread, but 27 pages is hard to sift through lol.

     

    I only really added to this conversation because I wanted to rehash saying a simple thing.......I don't care how much money F2P has made , the fact is that it caters many times to convenience or P2W situations and it's the lazy way out for developers and easy mode gamers. This whole way of thinking isn't good for gaming or gamers at all, it the easy way out to make high end profit for essentially delivering NOTHING. Companies give you a carrot or lazy content for cash, rather than having to give you something of substance or quality to keep gamers playing. They don't care about loyalty to or from their customers at all, knowing someone else is going to walk by and go "look, it's free, why not try it?", then hope they spend a few bucks in the cash shop.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laokoko
     

    I suppose the F2P part are usually solo and leveling phase.  Usually when you reach end game that's where you start to play with people.  That's when the developer are trying to get you to pay.

    In that sense you probably have more fun playing single player game.  Not that I endorse pirating game.  You might as well go play single player game.  In which they make a better single player game compare to mmorpg.

    Yes, I play SP games. You are not under the illusion that i only play MMO, do you?

    However, that is no reason not to play *some* MMOs that i like. In fact, i play them as SP games .. and don't tell me this crap about SP games are all better.

    There is no better recent diablo clone in the marvel universe than Marvel Heroes .. because that is the only one (more like a marvel ultimate alliance clone).

    Oh, i have no problem paying for SP games .. i just don't pay for sub-only MMOs.

     

    I'm under the illusion you only care about what you want base on your post.

    Most of your response is like "oh you like that, I don't.  Good thing I don't care about you.  But I still bother to respond"

    In that case, you should know that i care about SP games way more than MMOs since i said many times that i play MMOs solo. That should give you a clue.

    Of course i respond. Discussion here is fun. I don't have to like traditional MMOs to have fun discussing them, do i?

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laokoko
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by laokoko
     

    I suppose the F2P part are usually solo and leveling phase.  Usually when you reach end game that's where you start to play with people.  That's when the developer are trying to get you to pay.

    In that sense you probably have more fun playing single player game.  Not that I endorse pirating game.  You might as well go play single player game.  In which they make a better single player game compare to mmorpg.

    Yes, I play SP games. You are not under the illusion that i only play MMO, do you?

    However, that is no reason not to play *some* MMOs that i like. In fact, i play them as SP games .. and don't tell me this crap about SP games are all better.

    There is no better recent diablo clone in the marvel universe than Marvel Heroes .. because that is the only one (more like a marvel ultimate alliance clone).

    Oh, i have no problem paying for SP games .. i just don't pay for sub-only MMOs.

     

    I'm under the illusion you only care about what you want base on your post.

    Most of your response is like "oh you like that, I don't.  Good thing I don't care about you.  But I still bother to respond"

    In that case, you should know that i care about SP games way more than MMOs since i said many times that i play MMOs solo. That should give you a clue.

    Of course i respond. Discussion here is fun. I don't have to like traditional MMOs to have fun discussing them, do i?

    Which people would conclude is "spamming/trolling". The WoW devs would've banned you years ago over these threads! lol

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    Of course i respond. Discussion here is fun. I don't have to like traditional MMOs to have fun discussing them, do i?

    Which people would conclude is "spamming/trolling". The WoW devs would've banned you years ago over these threads! lol

    Wait .. i have to blindly like all traditional MMOs out there to be considered not trolling?

    Then i guess everyone who like WOW but not EQ or UO is trolling. Everyone who like GW2 and not Eve is trolling.

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