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What's Next, Pay Extra to Unlock Certain Classes?

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  • ZadawnZadawn SPosts: 651Member Common
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by inemosz
    Originally posted by Ghabbo

    Short answer, yes, like it or not this is the current trend:

     

    1) Pay for alpha testing.

    2) Pay for beta testing.

    3) Pay for exclusive perks (CE or whatever).

    4) Pay for DAY1 DLC.

    5) Pay monthly subs (during 12 months max).

    6) Pay for unlockable content (clases, races, bag space, etc) or continue paying monthly subs.

    7) Optional: Pay for cashshop items/services (instant leveling, faction transfers, etc).

    8) Pay for expansions.

     

    Still, people throw money at them. The problem is not the developer/publisher, it's the people.

    I agree the people are the deciding factor. But I don't see a big problem.

     

    IF the majority agrees with you, there simply is no problem.

    Because if the majority won't buy at that price, the devs lose a ton of revenue and learn the lesson.

     

    And... if the majority doesn't agree with you and is willing to pay that price, there should also be no problem.

    Because you shouldn't try to force your minority opinion onto the majority.

     

    And something like "we know it better than the majority, it should be forced on them" is simply not a viable solution. That's a way way too dangerous and slippery slope and wrong in so many ways. 

     

    The majority is stupid. Look around you  and tell me what's the ratio of stupid/bright people.

    image
  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,290Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zadawn
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by inemosz
    Originally posted by Ghabbo

    Short answer, yes, like it or not this is the current trend:

     

    1) Pay for alpha testing.

    2) Pay for beta testing.

    3) Pay for exclusive perks (CE or whatever).

    4) Pay for DAY1 DLC.

    5) Pay monthly subs (during 12 months max).

    6) Pay for unlockable content (clases, races, bag space, etc) or continue paying monthly subs.

    7) Optional: Pay for cashshop items/services (instant leveling, faction transfers, etc).

    8) Pay for expansions.

     

    Still, people throw money at them. The problem is not the developer/publisher, it's the people.

    I agree the people are the deciding factor. But I don't see a big problem.

     

    IF the majority agrees with you, there simply is no problem.

    Because if the majority won't buy at that price, the devs lose a ton of revenue and learn the lesson.

     

    And... if the majority doesn't agree with you and is willing to pay that price, there should also be no problem.

    Because you shouldn't try to force your minority opinion onto the majority.

     

    And something like "we know it better than the majority, it should be forced on them" is simply not a viable solution. That's a way way too dangerous and slippery slope and wrong in so many ways. 

     

    The majority is stupid. Look around you  and tell me what's the ratio of stupid/bright people.

    Just as common sense is really not all that common. But this whole thing is really just an example of 'whatever the market will bear' perhaps their just testing the limits of what that might be.image

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zadawn
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by inemosz
    Originally posted by Ghabbo

    Short answer, yes, like it or not this is the current trend:

     

    1) Pay for alpha testing.

    2) Pay for beta testing.

    3) Pay for exclusive perks (CE or whatever).

    4) Pay for DAY1 DLC.

    5) Pay monthly subs (during 12 months max).

    6) Pay for unlockable content (clases, races, bag space, etc) or continue paying monthly subs.

    7) Optional: Pay for cashshop items/services (instant leveling, faction transfers, etc).

    8) Pay for expansions.

     

    Still, people throw money at them. The problem is not the developer/publisher, it's the people.

    I agree the people are the deciding factor. But I don't see a big problem.

     

    IF the majority agrees with you, there simply is no problem.

    Because if the majority won't buy at that price, the devs lose a ton of revenue and learn the lesson.

     

    And... if the majority doesn't agree with you and is willing to pay that price, there should also be no problem.

    Because you shouldn't try to force your minority opinion onto the majority.

     

    And something like "we know it better than the majority, it should be forced on them" is simply not a viable solution. That's a way way too dangerous and slippery slope and wrong in so many ways. 

     

    The majority is stupid. Look around you  and tell me what's the ratio of stupid/bright people.

    This is exactly my thoughts on the matter. The people who think it's alright to pay all this crap when in the past you never had to, in my eyes they are insane.

    I also love how they try and bend facts to make it alright. Like trying to compare it to an expansion pack. Worse is when they say all games have Collectors Editions as if that is why people are arguing. Those who say that clearly have missed the point.

    Point is, imperials is a base race in the elder scrolls series. Something that is part of the base game should never, ever, cost extra. I don't care if I had no plans on playing as an imperial, that still doesn't make it right.

    It also doesn't matter if I don't buy the game, I can still complain, because it still isn't right. Just because I don't purchase something, doesn't mean I can't complain. After all, it's these specific reason why I am not purchasing it.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LuciferIAm
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987

    *sarcasm start* One day I am going to make an MMORPG. Going to charge a box price and sub. The base game will release with 3 races and I will charge for the other optional 6 races. $5 a piece.

    They where really suppose to be part of the base game ... but hahaha I decided to tell customers other wise because they foolishly buy it anyway. I learned it's so easy to trick people into thinking they are getting more. When really they are simply being scammed.

    While I am at it I will take out 3 outfits from the base game and a few items as well as a mount and charge $20 extra for them as a collectors edition. Hey .. it's normal .. no one cares and they throw money at me, even though I am technically cheating them.

    I will also include a cash shop, so you can get a few goodies and cosmetics because we havn't ripped you off enough yet. *sarcasm end*

    It amazes me how many people feel it's ok to do this type of stuff and defend it. It really begs the question ... where is the limit for these people who think it's ok? Imperials are a base race in the elder scrolls series. You shouldn't have to pay for it. Those who defend it, I ask where is the limit then? Where do you draw the line?

    Probably when we have to pay 1 cent everytime we walk a space.

    lol I don't even think that would do it. They would some how do the math to make it seem like no big deal. Then compare it to something more expensive.

    Something along the lines of like ...

    Per hour an average character walks 1,000 spaces. That is only $10 an hour. Going out to the theaters will cost you gas, movies tickets, and most people get popcorn. All together you are look at nearly $30 - 40+ for 1 - 2 people. For a 2 - 3 hour movie.

    $10 per hour to play a good game is a bargain! 

     

    Also .. no .. I am not kidding, I have seen people use this kind of argument against others to make it seem like something is cheaper.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 835Member Uncommon
    I may fool to ask , but can you play the game without expansion pack ?
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    There are no expansion packs ESO is not out yet. Expansion packs themselves are on the way out, cash shops have beaten retail boxes and microtransactions favour small purchases not large ones.

    And ESO will be play to play. So we won't have to share with the riff-raff which is a relief. ;)

  • phantomghostphantomghost Atlanta, GAPosts: 694Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    Let me start by saying that F2P games have the right to put pay barriers on pretty much whatever they want if they're not charging anything to play the basic game.

    However, when a developer chooses to charge a box price + sub, then believes it's OK to charge an additional fee to give players access to all classes, we are treading on a slippery slope that simply will not end well for most gamers.

    Let's be honest, if Zenimax sells a lot of CE's because of this tactic, we all know that the next round of MMO releases will take this idea one step further.  

    Will we be paying extra to unlock a certain class?  

    Or only people who purchased the CE can access a certain raid?  

    Want that next tier of gear to stay competitive in PvP, better cough up some cash.

     

    I'm hoping that ESO CE sales aren't amazing, not because I want ESO to fail but because I don't want other developers to think this type of business practice is acceptable to MMO gamers.

     

    Unfortunately, the desperation of many MMO players to get their hands on the latest game on day one, often affects their ability to look at the big picture... and the developers / publishers are very well aware of this.  

    Let me guess without reading this what it is.  Another thread about TESO that needs to be locked and the user needs to be issued a warning for posting the same thread that has been posted 500x now. 

     

    Don't like it don't play.  Go post about something else. 

    photo SIG_zpszteuyd0ejpg
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Brabbit1987

    It amazes me how many people feel it's ok to do this type of stuff and defend it. It really begs the question ... where is the limit for these people who think it's ok? Imperials are a base race in the elder scrolls series. You shouldn't have to pay for it. Those who defend it, I ask where is the limit then? Where do you draw the line?

    No limit for me. I just don't pay. I don't have to participate to support dev's right to do whatever they want with their game. Plus, it is not up to you anyway.

    No matter what they put into the cash shop, i can simply ignore. If the game is free part is fun enough, i will play and there are plenty of free fun MMOs out there.

    (Of course it only applies to MMO .. i gladly pay for games like Dishonored, or The ROOM, just not MMO).

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by LuciferIAm

    Nearly replied with a lengthy  rape analogy but decided not to.

    People who defend consumer gouging are just the worst. They truly, truly are. "You don't like X asking you to bend over? Then don't present yourself"

    Talk about how a company owns whatever and they can do what they want with it all you want but heres the thing. These companies exploit casuals en masse and/or people with simply little sense. They dangle some type of carrot in front of themm only to send them through a buttspanking machine on the way there.

    Now when another company sees that delightful sadistic scene they jump at the chance to create their own carots and ass slappin machines. Why? Because as so many people like to point out, its business. Guess the big ol secret about business? Come on, you know it. You got this. They aren't your friends. Surprise!

    The people dictating the gouging of the customer do it because it makes more money. This causes others to do the same because surprise they want more money. So many businesses are currently archaicly f'n the customer over on a daily basis because simply most of the sheeple don't know any better. Those that do often have to listen to sheeple defend said businesses.

    I find the worst of these to be those who respond with the whole you don't like it then don't buy it schtick. Do you really not understand what you're doing? You're giving companies liscence to freely continue to release lower and lower quality products. YOU are hurting the industry by being a sheep.

    Sadly these same people often spout out the if it's so bad 'it should be proven with your wallet' junk. I'll refer you to the exploitation of those who know no better.

    So, I pose these questions to those who so often defend terrible consumer gouging practices. Claiming that because it is simply entertainment that somehow makes it ok.

    "Why do you want future games to suck? Don't you enjoy playing games? Do you look forward to paying 5 dollars to move 5 spaces?"

    Hell if you're still going to reply with the entertainment part, then think about some of the developers out there who love what they do. But their bosses ruin their passions with greed. They sadly still need their jobs to survive, it's not like they can tell their bosses to f' off. Instead it's up to their fans to show the businesses we won't take their gouging with a 'Yes, Please'.

    Sure, some devs don't fit said bill. But it's clear many do when you hear them speak about their work. They pour their hearts and souls into their games. Only for their hard work to be marred by greed.

    Somehow people justify their negativity towards outspoken words against companies by again making the entertainment claim. But attaching entertainment moniker to games as if thats all they are is a travesty. I'm willing to bet nearly all of us have had wonderful social interactions with fellow enthusiasts. Made long lasting friends along the way. Made memories we will never forget. Maybe even found love. So what if it's on a virtual plane, how does that make it any less significant?

    In junior or senior year, you'll probably take an economy or business class of some sort. When you get there, show your teacher this post so that he knows the uphill battle he will be facing. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • TheocritusTheocritus Gary, INPosts: 3,750Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by anemo
    You already do with expansions.

     Thats just it...I dont think alot of people realize that they pay for them im p2p games also...I dont have a problem with premium classes as long as there are a few good ones for free too.....

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon

    The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

     

    In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by BeansnBread

    The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

     

    In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

    No the argument is that if you are not fine by it, don't play the game. Devs are under no obligation to do whatever you want. They only follow the money.

    For example, I am not "fine" with FFA pvp ... so i don't play FFA pvp games .. very simple.

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by BeansnBread

    The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

     

    In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

    No the argument is that if you are not fine by it, don't play the game. Devs are under no obligation to do whatever you want. They only follow the money.

    For example, I am not "fine" with FFA pvp ... so i don't play FFA pvp games .. very simple.

    That is actually a completely different argument. That is your argument, not the one that I was referring to. And I agree with your argument. Don't buy the game if you are uncomfortable with their payment model.

  • funyahnsfunyahns michigan city, INPosts: 315Member
     I have no problem with F2P games doing it. I have a problem with P2P games doing it though. So I am going to not buy it, and make sure other people know about it too. If you can get enough people on your side and they suffer through bad sales or bad publicity then maybe they will change their minds. Pretty much with what happened to Xbox last year when all that negative feedback hit them.  The biggest problem I had with the ordeal was acting like Pay gates are to good for them and subs should handle the entire thing.  Dishonesty is something I do not like in any company that wants me to spend money there.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by BeansnBread

    The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

     

    In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

    No the argument is that if you are not fine by it, don't play the game. Devs are under no obligation to do whatever you want. They only follow the money.

    For example, I am not "fine" with FFA pvp ... so i don't play FFA pvp games .. very simple.

     

    Or, they can now pay their gamers for the time spent playing the game. Have already over 356 days of actual play time in WoW (not just standing in Stormwind) and the minimum wage of around $8hr = $68,352.

     

    Upon that sum I'd gladly leave the game, since now I'm paid a wage for putting up with the BS in these games, including trolling devs which isn't part of the ToS/EULA.

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
    Originally posted by anemo
    You already do with expansions.

    Yeah, but when you buy an expansion you actually get the race/class. You don't have to pay extra for it.

    /facepalm

    Ya, that's the point. You don't get the class UNLESS you buy the expansion.

    True but an expansion is released after a MMO launches. This is building an expansion into the launch which gets us into paying extra for something they have already made for launch. It is in effect holding back on material from the get go. Much like Dragon Age held back sections of its game and expected us to pay extra.

    When you think of all the cash shop abuse that goes on in a F2P MMO it should be no surprise that P2P MMMOs start to take on bad practice as well.

    That is the state of play in the MMO genre now, nothing they do will surprise me, gaming ethos is dead.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Dewguy79
    But you do get the full game.  In most cases if you don't buy that race or class you will still be able to play the full game.  It will have no impact on your game.  Just because another player buys it doesn't mean he gets into new content. 

    Except for not having a race that's been in Elder Scrolls for over 10 years without paying extra for.

  • iixviiiixiixviiiix GSPosts: 835Member Uncommon

    For everyone continue use "expansion packs" compare .

    You can't play the game without expansion pack (except in some games)

    It difference than pay extra cash to unlock something that ready exit in game client but blocked by your "no extra" account . (that you can still play the game without that extra paid)

     

    Though i don't like way they do but i hope enough people paid for it so we will get better TES IV game

     

    Also it depend on the mass to tell that Zenimax do right or wrong move.

    If the mass see it "right" , they get money , if wrong then they doomed .

    As for myself , i cast my vote that they do wrong move.

  • KaosProphetKaosProphet Edmonton, ABPosts: 379Member

    I do not understand all these free-market advocates, who defend supplier behaviors in terms that suggest our decisions as consumers must be taken in silent isolation; without receiving or giving input through public discussion.

     

  • LienhartLienhart Markham, ONPosts: 635Member
    Originally posted by Xssiv

    However, when a developer chooses to charge a box price + sub, then believes it's OK to charge an additional fee to give players access to all classes, we are treading on a slippery slope that simply will not end well for most gamers.

    Do you know what's wrong with this statement?

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by BeansnBread

    The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

     

    In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

    No the argument is that if you are not fine by it, don't play the game. Devs are under no obligation to do whatever you want. They only follow the money.

    For example, I am not "fine" with FFA pvp ... so i don't play FFA pvp games .. very simple.

     

    Or, they can now pay their gamers for the time spent playing the game. Have already over 356 days of actual play time in WoW (not just standing in Stormwind) and the minimum wage of around $8hr = $68,352.

     

    Upon that sum I'd gladly leave the game, since now I'm paid a wage for putting up with the BS in these games, including trolling devs which isn't part of the ToS/EULA.

    You are kidding me .... your spend the time voluntary inside the game to have fun. In fact, sometimes you pay for that privilege.

    Do you get to ask movie theaters to pay you 2 hours of minimum wage to watch movies too.

    If gaming feels like work to you, you should quit.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,668Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BeansnBread

    The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

     

    In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

    If you are referring to expansions there, I agree. It's paying for expansions that you are saying is absurd, right? 

     

    "Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way."

    NO ONE thought that way. If they did, expansions would have never caught on. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by BeansnBread

    The argument that because people have been paying for expansions they should be fine with this basically boils down to this. You pay for expansions in other sub games and so everything is ok to sell in a cash shop (along with the sub). Classes, races, textures, top tier weapons and armor, levels, zones, quests, crafting supplies, etc. After all, you already pay for expansions and expansions include all of these things.

     

    In the end it's an argument that is technically valid, but is also relatively absurd to those that thought paying a sub should get you access to a full game. Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way. They would prefer to pay a sub and on top of that add in a cash shop that sells very important gameplay related items and services. I'm just not one of those people.

    If you are referring to expansions there, I agree. It's paying for expansions that you are saying is absurd, right? 

    It's a value argument. $20 for a race is not that same as $40 for a ton of content, races, classes, dungeons, features, zones, quests, raids, the list goes on and on. It is sometimes even a complete transformation of the game itself. The sheer scale of both of the purchases should be obvious to anyone that considers it for even a few seconds. And like the race unlock, everyone has to make that same value judgement. Is a paying for a single race worth $20 in a sub game? Is this specific expansion worth $40 in a sub game?

     

    The value difference is so extreme as to make both purchases barely comparable. That's why the argument is absurd to people that have been playing sub games for a long time. 

     

    "Obviously there are a lot of people that no longer feel this way."

    NO ONE thought that way. If they did, expansions would have never caught on. 

    Actually, obviously people DO feel this way about putting specific races behind a cash shop in a sub game. And obviously people did not feel that way about expansions.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by BeansnBread
     

    It's a value argument. $20 for a race is not that same as $40 for a ton of content, races, classes, dungeons, features, zones, quests, raids, the list goes on and on. It is sometimes even a complete transformation of the game itself. The sheer scale of both of the purchases should be obvious to anyone that considers it for even a few seconds. And like the race unlock, everyone has to make that same value judgement. Is a paying for a single race worth $20 in a sub game? Is this specific expansion worth $40 in a sub game?

    Then it is just a matter of price. If the cost of unlock is $5 .. or $1 .. you will agree that there is no problem?

     

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by BeansnBread

    It's a value argument. $20 for a race is not that same as $40 for a ton of content, races, classes, dungeons, features, zones, quests, raids, the list goes on and on. It is sometimes even a complete transformation of the game itself. The sheer scale of both of the purchases should be obvious to anyone that considers it for even a few seconds. And like the race unlock, everyone has to make that same value judgement. Is a paying for a single race worth $20 in a sub game? Is this specific expansion worth $40 in a sub game?

    Then it is just a matter of price. If the cost of unlock is $5 .. or $1 .. you will agree that there is no problem?

    I've probably said like 19 times in this thread that I think they can charge whatever they want for their product. Even in direct response to YOU, I said the following:

     

    But, like I've said before, it's fine that they're asking for it, I just personally don't like that type of payment model in a sub game whether it be in WoW or any other sub game.

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