WoW allegedly has 7-8 million, how many pay what is unknown as they don't differentiate between the western subs and the hourly rates over east. We do know that it made $213 million from its cash shop alone.
But WoW is a bit of an anomaly, pretty much every other game has failed to maintain a subscription alone.
There's not many Chinese playing currently, as MoP didn't grab their attention (NATURALLY), and that is differentiated in the stock report as US/EU/Oceania.
Both methods are viable, both can do really well if used appropiately.
And as WoW and SWTOR show, a hybrid approach can be extremely profitable.
The point is sub-only model is going the way of the do-do bird. A hybrid basically means that someone can play for free, and if there are whales who are willing to sub, better for the game.
The point is not that it is F2P vs P2P, it is sub-only vs an option for F2P.
In the top 10 money making games (and most listed here on MMORPG.com), all but ONE is sub-only (WOW).
And wow is only #7, and making less than half compared to LoL.
This pretty much shows that to make money, F2P beats P2P, and often you don't even need a virtual world.
[mod edit]
You aren't paying attention. How many subs do wow have left in the west? 3M? That is only 3*15*12 = $540M .. still smaller than the biggest F2P games on the list.
If you go down to the next biggest sub-game .. say Eve ... with 500k subs. That is a mere $90M a year .. way smaller than F2P numbers.
Tell me, aside from WOW, is there any sub game that approach these f2p numbers?
WoW allegedly has 7-8 million, how many pay what is unknown as they don't differentiate between the western subs and the hourly rates over east. We do know that it made $213 million from its cash shop alone.
But WoW is a bit of an anomaly, pretty much every other game has failed to maintain a subscription alone.
Aren't people here saying most of the wow players are in the east now?
But in any case, if you discount WOW (which i doubt even wow has 900M worth of sub fees because china players don't pay a sub), no other games have subs come anywhere close to the numbers on the list.
If anyone has solid data to refute that, feel free to do so. My impression is that Eve and TOR have the most amount of subs around 500k, and that .. at $15 a month .. generate very small amount of revenue compared to those F2P numbers.
Both methods are viable, both can do really well if used appropiately.
And as WoW and SWTOR show, a hybrid approach can be extremely profitable.
The point is sub-only model is going the way of the do-do bird. A hybrid basically means that someone can play for free, and if there are whales who are willing to sub, better for the game.
The point is not that it is F2P vs P2P, it is sub-only vs an option for F2P.
But you're getting free content that's free because most people abandoned it for greener pastures of the established IPs.
So, Nari, you prefer playing games without the polish and content, instead?
It's "free" for a reason, and not just for whales to have a pay land all to themselves.
Both methods are viable, both can do really well if used appropiately.
And as WoW and SWTOR show, a hybrid approach can be extremely profitable.
The point is sub-only model is going the way of the do-do bird. A hybrid basically means that someone can play for free, and if there are whales who are willing to sub, better for the game.
The point is not that it is F2P vs P2P, it is sub-only vs an option for F2P.
But you're getting free content that's free because most people abandoned it for greener pastures of the established IPs.
So, Nari, you prefer playing games without the polish and content, instead?
It's "free" for a reason, and not just for whales to have a pay land all to themselves.
That generalization that f2p games have no polish & content .. well it is just wrong.
For example, Marvel Heroes have unique content. There is no other MMO (or even recent single player games) that i can play as Captain America. Tell me where i can find that content other than in Marvel Heroes.
Yes, it is free for a reason .. because there are whales, and it can make more money.
Look at LoL, don't tell me the game is not polished.
That generalization that f2p games have no polish & content .. well it is just wrong.
Prove it, Nari.
Tell us how 10000001 MMOs had essentially a 90 day life span.
It's not like the crowd playing WoW sure wouldn't want a great modern MMO to call home.
It's just there isn't any to date.
EvE isn't even in the same genre. RIFT doesn't have the polish.
So this mass of players is sticking with WoW. Some will venture into EvE; RIFT; Minecraft and LoL, but they keep their Battle.net account info nearby, as it's tough to leave all that content and polish WoW has to play tiny worlds, and with buggy controls and characters.
Tell us how 10000001 MMOs had essentially a 90 day life span.
So what if a MMO has a 90 day life span. What does that have to do with content & polish?
I just finished Crysis 2, and it takes a much less than 90 days. The content is very polished, and i have lots of fun. Just make MMO like SP games, then you can have polished content and a short life span.
So far I agree F2P quality is not quite there. (and I don't care about stuff like LoL, I am talking MMORPGs. Apple vs. apple or bust)
Quality is subjective.
Clearly quality is there for Marvel Heroes, and STO because i am having fun. In fact, if you can find a more quality game where I can play marvel heroes like captain america, or a TNG era star trek captain, let me know.
Both methods are viable, both can do really well if used appropiately.
And as WoW and SWTOR show, a hybrid approach can be extremely profitable.
The point is sub-only model is going the way of the do-do bird. A hybrid basically means that someone can play for free, and if there are whales who are willing to sub, better for the game.
The point is not that it is F2P vs P2P, it is sub-only vs an option for F2P.
Release as P2P, rake in the box sales then subs. A year later go hybrid/F2P and let the micro transactions become the extra/only revenue stream. This seems to be to be an excellent financial model based on the fact that so many MMOs have successfully done this.
It is not unlike the way a film is only released in the cinema first (P2P), then goes to DVD (Hybrid), then is released as a TV programme (F2P).
It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.
Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.
Seeing how many F2P players dump literally thousands of bucks into progressing their characters. You have a bunch of people who don't spend a thing, but it only requires you to have a few of those "whales" who hand over the big cash to make up for that.
Originally posted by boxsnd
It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.
Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.
Perhaps, but it's oh so easy for the P2W to sneak in there.
Because it's oh so tempting for companies to abuse the social pressure to progress in an MMO.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Seeing how many F2P players dump literally thousands of bucks into progressing their characters. You have a bunch of people who don't spend a thing, but it only requires you to have a few of those "whales" who hand over the big cash to make up for that.
Originally posted by boxsnd
It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.
Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.
Perhaps, but it's oh so easy for the P2W to sneak in there.
Because it's oh so tempting for companies to abuse the social pressure to progress in an MMO.
Don't forget the F2P business model is still in its infancy. It is still evolving. A lot of companies abused it in the beginning but nowadays P2W games are getting so much bad publicity that I don't think they will even exist in a few years.
I am curious as to how those people get their data.
The only companies in that chart that need to publish hard numbers are EA, Blizzard and NCsoft.
All others can publish them however they damn please, curios is after 5 minute google searches on CrossFire there is absolutely no data on the company G4BOX INC (the owner and publisher of the game).
Riot games has a probable revenue of 200 mill on 2013.
Those guys took the earnings of the Tencent company which is a big ass behemoth in China providing media and internet services, it's like Vivendi in the west.
Seeing how many F2P players dump literally thousands of bucks into progressing their characters. You have a bunch of people who don't spend a thing, but it only requires you to have a few of those "whales" who hand over the big cash to make up for that.
Originally posted by boxsnd
It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.
Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.
Perhaps, but it's oh so easy for the P2W to sneak in there.
Because it's oh so tempting for companies to abuse the social pressure to progress in an MMO.
Don't forget the F2P business model is still in its infancy. It is still evolving. A lot of companies abused it in the beginning but nowadays P2W games are getting so much bad publicity that I don't think they will even exist in a few years.
They'll exist as long as profit is to be made. It's not like the publisher treats those games with care, as they produce yet another trashy F2P to feed the addicted, again.
There's no shortcuts in making a good game. It has to be good from the start, not paying to get anywhere.
Both methods are viable, both can do really well if used appropiately.
And as WoW and SWTOR show, a hybrid approach can be extremely profitable.
The point is sub-only model is going the way of the do-do bird. A hybrid basically means that someone can play for free, and if there are whales who are willing to sub, better for the game.
The point is not that it is F2P vs P2P, it is sub-only vs an option for F2P.
Release as P2P, rake in the box sales then subs. A year later go hybrid/F2P and let the micro transactions become the extra/only revenue stream. This seems to be to be an excellent financial model based on the fact that so many MMOs have successfully done this.
It is not unlike the way a film is only released in the cinema first (P2P), then goes to DVD (Hybrid), then is released as a TV programme (F2P).
Yes. But the strategy did depend on enough hype & marketing to get that initial year of box sales & subs ... otherwise, just skip to stage 2 with a hybrid F2P/sub/cash shop system.
Personally with so many games, and already turned F2P MMOs, i won't ever sub again.
Seeing how many F2P players dump literally thousands of bucks into progressing their characters. You have a bunch of people who don't spend a thing, but it only requires you to have a few of those "whales" who hand over the big cash to make up for that.
Originally posted by boxsnd
It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.
Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.
Perhaps, but it's oh so easy for the P2W to sneak in there.
Because it's oh so tempting for companies to abuse the social pressure to progress in an MMO.
Don't forget the F2P business model is still in its infancy. It is still evolving. A lot of companies abused it in the beginning but nowadays P2W games are getting so much bad publicity that I don't think they will even exist in a few years.
Agreed.
Hopefully we will get more big budget F2P titles without P2W elements and F2P will finally leave the "bad games" stigma behind.
There will ofcourse still be good games and bad games (in both payment model categories), but people will hopefully judge them on a game by game basis instead of payment model based generalizations.
(and I mean "bad" on an objective level, as in polish, quality, content, well designed gameplay, eventual inclusion of P2W mechanics, etc.)
Hopefully we will get more big budget F2P titles without P2W elements and F2P will finally leave the "bad games" stigma behind.
You can't, as you only get what you pay for.
Whales in themselves won't pay freebies through, as there's little loyalty to game hoppers. They're not there to add to a game, they're there to only take. And that's what kills F2P games in the end.
WoW is unique that Blizzard can't change it's pay model, but it's a haven for the smartest game shoppers online.
Yes. But the strategy did depend on enough hype & marketing to get that initial year of box sales & subs ... otherwise, just skip to stage 2 with a hybrid F2P/sub/cash shop system.
Personally with so many games, and already turned F2P MMOs, i won't ever sub again.
That's the reason many people hate F2P. While you can play for free. Many people need to pay way more if they want to experience the full game.
Take atlantica online for example. My favorite turn based mmorpg.
You "can" play for free. But if want to pvp... (sorry 15$/month else you can't view people's health point and guarantee lossing)
You "can" level without exp boost, but it only take 2000 hours to reach max level... Better use exp boost so it only take 1000 hours.
If you want to do that really hard dungeon.... Better spend 1000$ else your gear won't be good enough to do it!
Take SWTOR for example. The chart is saying half of the people paid more than 40$ a month... Does that sound right?
I get it you dont' mind float game to game. But some of us do find a game we like and want to keep playing it but realizing how much money we need to pay.
Hopefully we will get more big budget F2P titles without P2W elements and F2P will finally leave the "bad games" stigma behind.
You can't, as you only get what you pay for.
Whales in themselves won't pay freebies through, as there's little loyalty to game hoppers. They're not there to add to a game, they're there to only take. And that's what kills F2P games in the end.
WoW is unique that Blizzard can't change it's pay model, but it's a haven for the smartest game shoppers online.
I prefer sub games. So yeah I get what I pay for.
But to your argument: Yes, WE get what we pay for collectively.
I have in fact posted several times that freeloaders DO negatively influence game budgets and thus quality.
We are in agreement on that.
I just don't think it outright kills F2P games. F2P also has advantages that influence things like barriers to entry and customer acquisition costs.
You can't only list the negatives while ignoring the positives. It's not as black&white as some people imply (on both sides of the argument).
In any case we will very likely see a new generation of bigger F2P titles and wishing them failure just because we personally don't like the model is in my opinion not the way to go.
(current F2P titles are mostly a bad basis to extrapolate from anyway, many of them weren't even made for F2P, or are quick money grab shots.)
I do think the really successful titles will be more likely hybrids and not pure F2P. We don't totally disagree there either.
I just don't think it outright kills F2P games. F2P also has advantages that influence things like barriers to entry and customer acquisition costs.
You can't only list the negatives while ignoring the positives. It's not as black&white as some people imply (on both sides of the argument).
It kills them like a cancer kills it's host.
Have enough cancer cells, it spreads. Next thing folks know it's at stage IV and the host begins to die...it sucks the life out.
That's how the games die. It's slow, but it's one drop of lifeblood at a time. For not only did the cancer fed on the host, the host also fed on the cancer.
I just don't think it outright kills F2P games. F2P also has advantages that influence things like barriers to entry and customer acquisition costs.
You can't only list the negatives while ignoring the positives. It's not as black&white as some people imply (on both sides of the argument).
It kills them like a cancer kills it's host.
Have enough cancer cells, it spreads. Next thing folks know it's at stage IV and the host begins to die...it sucks the life out.
That's how the games die. It's slow, but it's one drop of lifeblood at a time. For not only did the cancer fed on the host, the host also fed on the cancer.
It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.
Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.
You are right sir. As long as it is not P2W I am all for P2P.
Comments
The whole F2P vs. P2P discussion is pointless.
Both methods are viable, both can do really well if used appropiately.
And as WoW and SWTOR show, a hybrid approach can be extremely profitable.
There's not many Chinese playing currently, as MoP didn't grab their attention (NATURALLY), and that is differentiated in the stock report as US/EU/Oceania.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
The point is sub-only model is going the way of the do-do bird. A hybrid basically means that someone can play for free, and if there are whales who are willing to sub, better for the game.
The point is not that it is F2P vs P2P, it is sub-only vs an option for F2P.
Take the Magic: The Gathering 'What Color Are You?' Quiz.
Aren't people here saying most of the wow players are in the east now?
But in any case, if you discount WOW (which i doubt even wow has 900M worth of sub fees because china players don't pay a sub), no other games have subs come anywhere close to the numbers on the list.
If anyone has solid data to refute that, feel free to do so. My impression is that Eve and TOR have the most amount of subs around 500k, and that .. at $15 a month .. generate very small amount of revenue compared to those F2P numbers.
But you're getting free content that's free because most people abandoned it for greener pastures of the established IPs.
So, Nari, you prefer playing games without the polish and content, instead?
It's "free" for a reason, and not just for whales to have a pay land all to themselves.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
That generalization that f2p games have no polish & content .. well it is just wrong.
For example, Marvel Heroes have unique content. There is no other MMO (or even recent single player games) that i can play as Captain America. Tell me where i can find that content other than in Marvel Heroes.
Yes, it is free for a reason .. because there are whales, and it can make more money.
Look at LoL, don't tell me the game is not polished.
Prove it, Nari.
Tell us how 10000001 MMOs had essentially a 90 day life span.
It's not like the crowd playing WoW sure wouldn't want a great modern MMO to call home.
It's just there isn't any to date.
EvE isn't even in the same genre. RIFT doesn't have the polish.
So this mass of players is sticking with WoW. Some will venture into EvE; RIFT; Minecraft and LoL, but they keep their Battle.net account info nearby, as it's tough to leave all that content and polish WoW has to play tiny worlds, and with buggy controls and characters.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Yeah, that's the billion dollar question I guess, how can someone steal a good chunk of the WoW playerbase.
I agree the clone approach à la Rift doesn't work well, it's near impossible to compete head on with WoW in terms of polish and content.
Maybe once we start seeing big budget western F2P titles they will have some success with it. Who knows.
So far I agree F2P quality is not quite there. (and I don't care about stuff like LoL, I am talking MMORPGs. Apple vs. apple or bust)
Or we finally see something innovative with a high level of polish do surprisingly well. (yeah, just a dream for now)
So what if a MMO has a 90 day life span. What does that have to do with content & polish?
I just finished Crysis 2, and it takes a much less than 90 days. The content is very polished, and i have lots of fun. Just make MMO like SP games, then you can have polished content and a short life span.
Quality is subjective.
Clearly quality is there for Marvel Heroes, and STO because i am having fun. In fact, if you can find a more quality game where I can play marvel heroes like captain america, or a TNG era star trek captain, let me know.
Release as P2P, rake in the box sales then subs. A year later go hybrid/F2P and let the micro transactions become the extra/only revenue stream. This seems to be to be an excellent financial model based on the fact that so many MMOs have successfully done this.
It is not unlike the way a film is only released in the cinema first (P2P), then goes to DVD (Hybrid), then is released as a TV programme (F2P).
It's not really that hard to figure out yourself F2P is the business model of the future. So many P2P MMOs were on the brink of destruction, switched to F2P and are doing fine now. Even WoW is preparing for the F2P switch. It's time for P2P fans to face reality.
Also, there is nothing wrong with F2P as long as it's not P2W. The only people who are against F2P are those who don't understand it and confuse it with P2W.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
It wouldn't surprise me.
Seeing how many F2P players dump literally thousands of bucks into progressing their characters. You have a bunch of people who don't spend a thing, but it only requires you to have a few of those "whales" who hand over the big cash to make up for that.
Perhaps, but it's oh so easy for the P2W to sneak in there.
Because it's oh so tempting for companies to abuse the social pressure to progress in an MMO.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Don't forget the F2P business model is still in its infancy. It is still evolving. A lot of companies abused it in the beginning but nowadays P2W games are getting so much bad publicity that I don't think they will even exist in a few years.
DAoC - Excalibur & Camlann
I am curious as to how those people get their data.
The only companies in that chart that need to publish hard numbers are EA, Blizzard and NCsoft.
All others can publish them however they damn please, curios is after 5 minute google searches on CrossFire there is absolutely no data on the company G4BOX INC (the owner and publisher of the game).
Riot games has a probable revenue of 200 mill on 2013.
Those guys took the earnings of the Tencent company which is a big ass behemoth in China providing media and internet services, it's like Vivendi in the west.
That website reeks of misinformation.
They'll exist as long as profit is to be made. It's not like the publisher treats those games with care, as they produce yet another trashy F2P to feed the addicted, again.
There's no shortcuts in making a good game. It has to be good from the start, not paying to get anywhere.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Yes. But the strategy did depend on enough hype & marketing to get that initial year of box sales & subs ... otherwise, just skip to stage 2 with a hybrid F2P/sub/cash shop system.
Personally with so many games, and already turned F2P MMOs, i won't ever sub again.
Agreed.
Hopefully we will get more big budget F2P titles without P2W elements and F2P will finally leave the "bad games" stigma behind.
There will ofcourse still be good games and bad games (in both payment model categories), but people will hopefully judge them on a game by game basis instead of payment model based generalizations.
(and I mean "bad" on an objective level, as in polish, quality, content, well designed gameplay, eventual inclusion of P2W mechanics, etc.)
You can't, as you only get what you pay for.
Whales in themselves won't pay freebies through, as there's little loyalty to game hoppers. They're not there to add to a game, they're there to only take. And that's what kills F2P games in the end.
WoW is unique that Blizzard can't change it's pay model, but it's a haven for the smartest game shoppers online.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
That's the reason many people hate F2P. While you can play for free. Many people need to pay way more if they want to experience the full game.
Take atlantica online for example. My favorite turn based mmorpg.
You "can" play for free. But if want to pvp... (sorry 15$/month else you can't view people's health point and guarantee lossing)
You "can" level without exp boost, but it only take 2000 hours to reach max level... Better use exp boost so it only take 1000 hours.
If you want to do that really hard dungeon.... Better spend 1000$ else your gear won't be good enough to do it!
Take SWTOR for example. The chart is saying half of the people paid more than 40$ a month... Does that sound right?
I get it you dont' mind float game to game. But some of us do find a game we like and want to keep playing it but realizing how much money we need to pay.
I prefer sub games. So yeah I get what I pay for.
But to your argument: Yes, WE get what we pay for collectively.
I have in fact posted several times that freeloaders DO negatively influence game budgets and thus quality.
We are in agreement on that.
I just don't think it outright kills F2P games. F2P also has advantages that influence things like barriers to entry and customer acquisition costs.
You can't only list the negatives while ignoring the positives. It's not as black&white as some people imply (on both sides of the argument).
In any case we will very likely see a new generation of bigger F2P titles and wishing them failure just because we personally don't like the model is in my opinion not the way to go.
(current F2P titles are mostly a bad basis to extrapolate from anyway, many of them weren't even made for F2P, or are quick money grab shots.)
I do think the really successful titles will be more likely hybrids and not pure F2P. We don't totally disagree there either.
It kills them like a cancer kills it's host.
Have enough cancer cells, it spreads. Next thing folks know it's at stage IV and the host begins to die...it sucks the life out.
That's how the games die. It's slow, but it's one drop of lifeblood at a time. For not only did the cancer fed on the host, the host also fed on the cancer.
Parasites kill each other in the end.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
That's one way to put it.
I respectfully disagree.
You are right sir. As long as it is not P2W I am all for P2P.
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)