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New Q&A at their site touches on some CE topics

13

Comments

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Reklaw

    look at other game like WOW pre order. it doesnt include a WHOLE RACE and still sold out.

    you made it sound like they cant sell any CE if they dont sell imperial, there many cosmetic things like cool mini pet  that many other game did.

    be more specific.

    The more reason I never pre-ordered.

    But still feel that now pre-order players finaly get something more unique then what "most" games offer with a pre-order. Perhaps it's just me that I never understood why someone would pay for a CE edition when most of it is only cosmetic and pretty much meaningless thru the course of the game.

    And still not going to pre-order TESO but will buy the game at release or slightly after for sure.

    I've seen people speak out against these pre-orders yet those same people are looking forward to Everquest Landmark/Next, yet those games are labelded Free To Play but have founderpacks for early acces and will be included into it's new Station all Acces pass.

    I have nothing against either but wonder how people justified complaining about one game while another game seems to be doing equally the same just in another form. And even has done so before gamers where able to play.

     

     

    Lets break down this comment....

     

    The reason why "most game" never did it because it is taboo. Especially if youre paying a subscription.

    Perhaps it's taboo to you and/or other people I just don't see a reason why it should be taboo

    They pay for a CE because they love the IP andwant to have something from it. Digital CEs are money grabs in the first place. They are a bastardization of a TRUE CE, where you generally get an art book or lore book, a sound track CD. a map generally, some token either a statue or a coin or a medallion, and generally a specially decorated box it comes in. THAT Is a COLLECTORS EDITION, you actually 'collect' them. Offering more in game stuff in some digital collectors edition has always been borderline especially in games starting out with a sub. But because theyre accepted now (the outrage at common stuff is the same as what we are seeing with what ESO is offering back when this first started, so food for thought) everyone gives it a pass.

    I love the IP  but you are quite mistaken with using the word CE because there is no CE with TESO. It's a DE/DIE(Digital Edition and Digital Imperial Edition). You might have had a point if these where Collector Editions.

    The third part is the biggest factor, theyre FREE to PLAY. So giving stuff to people who PAY for it is perfectly fine. In a sub based game EVERYONE pays with their subscription. Therefore they should all get the same things. Paying more and getting more isnt a subscription based game mindset, it is a buy to play or a free to play mindset. Had ESo gone buy to play like most peopel thought they would this wouldnt even be a discussion.

    Still not sure why you persieve it that way. As said I rather see people using a pre-order to gain something unique and their money is actually spend for things ingame. I am more of a sub-fee minded player then a F2P player nd still see nothing wrong but actually a good thing Zenimax did.

    Also in regards to EQ Landmark and certainly EQ next will also offer it, theyre paying to get into the game first. So basically theyre paying to beta it, or thyre paying into a 'kickstarter" that has sort of started but their money and efforts help do stretch goals (in a round about way). I think one Sony is doing and people who go that route have a lot more brains than sending money to people who dont have anything and have never done anything in the past to warrant giving them money for a promise of something that doesnt even exist. But dont get me wrong Sony s as big a cash grab company as has ever existed, thats why I didnt do (buy my way in) the Alpha even though I was intrigued.

    I don't understand people who do buy into pre-order if never had a chance to actually try/play the game. So to me it would be logical those people wouldn't pre-order.  In that order do you understand why I do not understand why people are okay with paying for some founder pack well before (months) there is even a playable state of that game.

    Your final statement, its two completely different circumstances as I said one is free to play and one is pay to play the differences are astounding thats why the initial announcement of a sub was pretty hot. But by doing what theyre doing now and will more than likely do in the future based off these examples flies right in theface of the subscription model, and why the defenders of that model are now the ones critical of what theyre doing now. Theyre double and almost triple dipping here.

    I still stand with having more faith in their decision of TESO being a sub based game then I have in upcoming "sandbox" games being F2P. 

    People can do what they want, its a free country but all these these lead to more things down the road. Until gamers unite (which will never ever happen) it will  continue and it will get worse. I guarantee if the nae of this game was sshgfggggxgxdotijf and NOT ESO and it was produced and developed and had the exact same everything except name, people would be laughing at these guys for trying to do what theye doing. People are buying into the NAME of this  game, and for that theyre truly going to be sorry.

    From my point of view, people who are into ES and dismiss this game might miss out on a good ES experiance.

     

  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen
     

    . This game didn't plan on having Imperials in the game on launch. People asked for them, they were added as part of the pre-order and time moves on. Now you have a litmus of seeing it done once. 

     

    I think they always had them, just like they always had the ability to do first person, just like they always had the intention of unlocking races, just like they had a lot of things that they said they didnt have or were 'impossible' to do but miraculously figured a way into the game.

     

    if you listen to all the interviews and how the voices are when they answered question about some of this stuff it is interesting. Then these latest Q&A sessions where they come right out and say 'I could answer that but marketing might be upset' THAT right there tells you what is going on here.

     

    But they do these things and like you people think they did it because players asked for it. When they just created the controversy to come in like a knight and save the day by giving people what they wanted.

     

    I have no proof of this obviously just speculation based on listening to hours of videos and decisions that have been made that contradict things they say, and not just once but over and over again. Its a pattern now. One that is easy to see.

     

    Once the game is actually released even the people with blinders on will see it. Whether it makes a difference or not is anyones guess. I have seen gamers take a lot of abuse from companies to play and even pay for games they love or feel some sort of attachment to.

     

     

  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reklaw

     

     

    I love the IP  but you are quite mistaken with using the word CE because there is no CE with TESO. It's a DE/DIE(Digital Edition and Digital Imperial Edition). You might have had a point if these where Collector Editions.

     

     

     

     

    There is a physical CE. its 99 bux. most places have sold out of that version already.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by Skymourne

    Because people like you and those defending this garbage have allowed it to happen.  You said similar things in a previous thread.  It doesn't make it less of an abomination if you tell yourself that this is acceptable behavior.  This should have never happened and now everyone has to pay for it.  Unbelievable.

    Disliking reality doesn't change reality.  Even if every single person who reads these threads were to refuse to buy the game, it wouldn't be a drop in the bucket of their sales.  The audience as a whole just doesn't share your outrage, not enough of it to ever make an impact.  Change has come, your only choices are to accept it or opt out of MMOs.

    Originally posted by rodarin

    There is a physical CE. its 99 bux. most places have sold out of that version already.

    Seriously?  It's not like the TOR CE or the Mists of Pandaria CE, where I could probably go out and find ten copies of each before the end of the day if I felt like it, it's actually limited?

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,618Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by greenreen
     

    . This game didn't plan on having Imperials in the game on launch. People asked for them, they were added as part of the pre-order and time moves on. Now you have a litmus of seeing it done once. 

     

    I think they always had them, just like they always had the ability to do first person, just like they always had the intention of unlocking races, just like they had a lot of things that they said they didnt have or were 'impossible' to do but miraculously figured a way into the game.

     

    if you listen to all the interviews and how the voices are when they answered question about some of this stuff it is interesting. Then these latest Q&A sessions where they come right out and say 'I could answer that but marketing might be upset' THAT right there tells you what is going on here.

     

    But they do these things and like you people think they did it because players asked for it. When they just created the controversy to come in like a knight and save the day by giving people what they wanted.

     

    I have no proof of this obviously just speculation based on listening to hours of videos and decisions that have been made that contradict things they say, and not just once but over and over again. Its a pattern now. One that is easy to see.

     

    Once the game is actually released even the people with blinders on will see it. Whether it makes a difference or not is anyones guess. I have seen gamers take a lot of abuse from companies to play and even pay for games they love or feel some sort of attachment to.

     

     

    No, I don't think they did. You can speculate that this is part of their grand design just like I speculated in my other thread about an internal power struggle between Firor and Sage about sticking to the original concept (no Imperials, races locked to factions) or listening to the fans complaints and allowing off-faction choice. We're both just guessing.

     

    This decision to me smacks of compromise not any devious plan - you're giving them way too much credit for marketing savvy when you assume that this was their plan all along. If one side had fully gotten its way you would see no off-alliance choice or Imperials. If the other side had, you'd see no alliance lock at all... what they're doing is something in between... that's how the double-hump horses get designed.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Reklaw

     

     

    I love the IP  but you are quite mistaken with using the word CE because there is no CE with TESO. It's a DE/DIE(Digital Edition and Digital Imperial Edition). You might have had a point if these where Collector Editions.

     

     

     

     

    There is a physical CE. its 99 bux. most places have sold out of that version already.

    Aha thanks wasn't aware.

    So Zenimax thought of both collectors and gamers who actually want to show something unique ingame.

     

  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by greenreen
     

    . This game didn't plan on having Imperials in the game on launch. People asked for them, they were added as part of the pre-order and time moves on. Now you have a litmus of seeing it done once. 

     

    I think they always had them, just like they always had the ability to do first person, just like they always had the intention of unlocking races, just like they had a lot of things that they said they didnt have or were 'impossible' to do but miraculously figured a way into the game.

     

    if you listen to all the interviews and how the voices are when they answered question about some of this stuff it is interesting. Then these latest Q&A sessions where they come right out and say 'I could answer that but marketing might be upset' THAT right there tells you what is going on here.

     

    But they do these things and like you people think they did it because players asked for it. When they just created the controversy to come in like a knight and save the day by giving people what they wanted.

     

    I have no proof of this obviously just speculation based on listening to hours of videos and decisions that have been made that contradict things they say, and not just once but over and over again. Its a pattern now. One that is easy to see.

     

    Once the game is actually released even the people with blinders on will see it. Whether it makes a difference or not is anyones guess. I have seen gamers take a lot of abuse from companies to play and even pay for games they love or feel some sort of attachment to.

     

     

    No, I don't think they did. You can speculate that this is part of their grand design just like I speculated in my other thread about an internal power struggle between Firor and Sage about sticking to the original concept (no Imperials, races locked to factions) or listening to the fans complaints and allowing off-faction choice. We're both just guessing.

     

    This decision to me smacks of compromise not any devious plan - you're giving them way too much credit for marketing savvy when you assume that this was their plan all along. If one side had fully gotten its way you would see no off-alliance choice or Imperials. If the other side had, you'd see no alliance lock at all... what they're doing is something in between... that's how the double-hump horses get designed.

    Neither Sage nor Firor are even in the equation beyond someone asking them "Is it Possible?". Then the next question is "whats the best way to make money off it?".

     

    Now sage might be closer to the market side of things than firor or willing to break lore (but NOT having Imperials is lore breaking if you ask me, as a playable race you can argue that point, but whatever) But ot think they were not going to have them in the game as a playable race is naive. if you really thought theyre were nt going to have first person (when it is an absolute staple of the ES franchise) and believed it when they said first person was 'Impossible' Then throw your computer away now. Especially when in less than 3 months it was released in a video (in a time the game was in a lull hypewise as negative leaks came out) So they released that info when they needed to, and since they obviously couldnt find a way to charge for it or use it as an enticement they did it when it did some good at least.

     

    Developers can make and do just about anything, but its the market side of games now that decide what gets put in and when. There are more than enough examples to give a proof by inspection validation. This game isnt even out yet so of course its a lot of speculation and conjecture but there is also enough empirical stuff to make those conclusions. It really isnt some wild conspiracy theory.

     

    We predicted a lot of this stuff already so when it actually comes to fruition that pretty much verifies some of that speculation and conjecture because it isnt anymore its proven.

  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Reklaw

     

     

    I love the IP  but you are quite mistaken with using the word CE because there is no CE with TESO. It's a DE/DIE(Digital Edition and Digital Imperial Edition). You might have had a point if these where Collector Editions.

     

     

     

     

    There is a physical CE. its 99 bux. most places have sold out of that version already.

    Aha thanks wasn't aware.

    So Zenimax thought of both collectors and gamers who actually want to show something unique ingame.

     

    As a critic of them I think they added the digital CE to make more money. It was focused at the first group of critics the game had, the 'we want free to play or buy to play" crowd. Because it used their mentality of spend a little more you get a little more. REAL fans are going to but the physical box. Fake fans are going to buy the cheaper version but the one that still gives them the Imperial race, and de facto Alliance unlock.

     

    Problem is by setting that precedent they also alienated their first defenders the subscription minded players who think (and rightly so) if a game in this day and age especially is going to go sub fee right off the bat then sub payers should get everything.

     

    What amounts as content and what is fluff has been debated to death. Point is it doesnt matter, they used those things alot of people wanted as bait for them to pre order. Pre ordering a game that is still under a VERY strict NDA policy and one that is still in closed beta. Sure they can cancel a pre order because no money has changed hands yet, but they (Zenimax knows) that once people are in the likelihood of them opting out is slim, especially when they pre ordered after the schenanigans they already pulled.

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,925Member Uncommon

    "...get a unique racial skill line of equal gameplay impact to other races’ unique racial skill lines."

     

    You know what else this stands true for? Classes, and you know what games balanced classes? None. Yeah, I'm sorry but you can't claim its equal for one. Look at world of warcraft, for the longest time the races were considered to be a bit imbalanced (and still can be) with having just 1 or 2 of the abilities that are suppose to be small providing advantages that any min-maxer would take over other races. So trying to go "nah its fine" and brush it off at least for balance sake is just BS.

    Guys, please stop defending them. You know holding a special race back in a sub based game isn't right. Don't support such practices of allowing a game to charge box price and sub, while also holding back something large like a race to be specific to only people who pay more money. Your giving them an okay to charge for big things like that on their game on top of the sub fee. Your opening the same can of worms that has allow the mobile ftp games into a plague of greed. 

  • squalleonahasqualleonaha miss, ONPosts: 211Member
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by squalleonaha
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by squalleonaha
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by squalleonaha..snip

     

    what you point of bringing my comment from other forum post?

    yes, i did say "we are no longer in a time that only WOW, EQ2, FF11 are the only mmo" in other game. 

    you are trying to use my words to say that : using WOW pre-order as an example is outdated. however, just look back in the history of all pre order game untill the present FF14, SWTRP,RIFT. has any of them sell exclusive RACE? when a thing go too far it become ABNORMAL.

    Look, I came to forum and read two topics. You were the last poster in both of them and said two opposing things. I didn't single you out, it wasn't personal or meant to be an offensive thing. Just showing you what I was thinking when I read the WOW pre-order comparison with your own words. You made the comments, I only used them together because they supported what I was thinking, WOW wasn't a fair comparison to a game releasing now.

    As for the other games. Well, now you have a precedent for future. This game didn't plan on having Imperials in the game on launch. People asked for them, they were added as part of the pre-order and time moves on. Now you have a litmus of seeing it done once. If no one can have the Imperial race but the people who bought the pre-order in 6 mos. or so down the line. Get back to me about it and I'll eat crow but I don't see any reason they won't introduce them in some way later. Maybe through a storyline where you talk to them and learn of their plans to be in all alliances and why you have seen them around but only in small numbers. If I can think up that scenario now, in 15 seconds, how long do you think they've had to mull about it since they first got word some people wanted to have the race.

    Here's my imaginary meeting inside their heads.

    Another thing too was they had an equal set of 3 races in each alliance. So where oh where do you put the 10th because now you don't have a division of 3? That could have been why they were left out to start with. Maybe they queried Skyrim/any of their games metrics/records and found them to be the least appealing/played race - we just don't know because we weren't there. So, they let them go into any alliance. Ok, that then brings a backstory and flavor to the races, now all of them technically have 4 races possible.

    So, hey guys, if we can send people to other alliances, let's add in that our pre-order people can choose an alliance and be in an alternate alliance in a sort of treacherous way. Now that we've seen that races can be important to some of the players we can let them wiggle into non-home-based alliances so that they can get the game and play with a friend though their preferred races aren't in the same alliance by default. Then we potentially have all races in all alliances but not in a way that's equal or common. Someone has to come from pre-order to choose that route for now, then all alliances aren't exactly the same.

    Right, right, we don't want all alliances to be exactly the same right now. We want those stragglers to be fewer than those core racial groupings. Over time we could open it up and let all races be in all alliances but let's make them do a quest or something and change their minds or be bothered by a leadership structure then seeking a change of fellowship. Exactly because some people are born rebellious and some need to get fed up to act upon it. That will help with the racial balancing too. Once all races are available in all alliances, no one can claim that one alliance has a severe advantage because only they can have access to those racials. This will leave us open to produce more content instead of being stuck at balance issues spinning wheels.

     

    i dont know what you are trying to prove or trying to pick a thing here?and whatever it is, i dont bother. what is the opposite thing i said?

    the 2 thing i said is " WOW pre-order doesnt sell RACE and its still sold out" this is on argument with a dude who said imperial RACE is COSTMETIC and Zenimax NEED to sell that RACE in order to able to sell CE.

    the second thing i said on other topic is what you quote" we are no longer in a time that only WOW, EQ2, FF11 are the only mmo". and it about a totally different thing in a different topic. what is the opposite you see in those words?

    plz read careful previous post if you dont know. 

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,618Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by greenreen
     

    . This game didn't plan on having Imperials in the game on launch. People asked for them, they were added as part of the pre-order and time moves on. Now you have a litmus of seeing it done once. 

     

    I think they always had them, just like they always had the ability to do first person, just like they always had the intention of unlocking races, just like they had a lot of things that they said they didnt have or were 'impossible' to do but miraculously figured a way into the game.

     

    if you listen to all the interviews and how the voices are when they answered question about some of this stuff it is interesting. Then these latest Q&A sessions where they come right out and say 'I could answer that but marketing might be upset' THAT right there tells you what is going on here.

     

    But they do these things and like you people think they did it because players asked for it. When they just created the controversy to come in like a knight and save the day by giving people what they wanted.

     

    I have no proof of this obviously just speculation based on listening to hours of videos and decisions that have been made that contradict things they say, and not just once but over and over again. Its a pattern now. One that is easy to see.

     

    Once the game is actually released even the people with blinders on will see it. Whether it makes a difference or not is anyones guess. I have seen gamers take a lot of abuse from companies to play and even pay for games they love or feel some sort of attachment to.

     

     

    No, I don't think they did. You can speculate that this is part of their grand design just like I speculated in my other thread about an internal power struggle between Firor and Sage about sticking to the original concept (no Imperials, races locked to factions) or listening to the fans complaints and allowing off-faction choice. We're both just guessing.

     

    This decision to me smacks of compromise not any devious plan - you're giving them way too much credit for marketing savvy when you assume that this was their plan all along. If one side had fully gotten its way you would see no off-alliance choice or Imperials. If the other side had, you'd see no alliance lock at all... what they're doing is something in between... that's how the double-hump horses get designed.

    Neither Sage nor Firor are even in the equation beyond someone asking them "Is it Possible?". Then the next question is "whats the best way to make money off it?".

     

    Now sage might be closer to the market side of things than firor or willing to break lore (but NOT having Imperials is lore breaking if you ask me, as a playable race you can argue that point, but whatever) But ot think they were not going to have them in the game as a playable race is naive. if you really thought theyre were nt going to have first person (when it is an absolute staple of the ES franchise) and believed it when they said first person was 'Impossible' Then throw your computer away now. Especially when in less than 3 months it was released in a video (in a time the game was in a lull hypewise as negative leaks came out) So they released that info when they needed to, and since they obviously couldnt find a way to charge for it or use it as an enticement they did it when it did some good at least.

     

    Developers can make and do just about anything, but its the market side of games now that decide what gets put in and when. There are more than enough examples to give a proof by inspection validation. This game isnt even out yet so of course its a lot of speculation and conjecture but there is also enough empirical stuff to make those conclusions. It really isnt some wild conspiracy theory.

     

    We predicted a lot of this stuff already so when it actually comes to fruition that pretty much verifies some of that speculation and conjecture because it isnt anymore its proven.

    You're assuming that adding imperials takes as much development time as changing their first person view to one that showed your hands weapons and effects from their original no-hands standard MMO fare FPV?

     

    Imperials are just a skin and a new database entry for their racials. They literally could be coded and added in a day. There is no Imp starting zone, no unique quest lines... adding them is trivial. Not to mention the fact that no one in beta has ever seen them...

     

    And your assumptions about the influence of the bean counters vs. the president and creative director is borrowed from the structure of other companies--EA corporate for example. Zenimax/Bethesda are essentially the very same entity which also happens to be privately held - no stockholders here. Their corporate dynamics are nothing like what you'd see for publicly traded companies that do need to pander to the stock holders.

  • DrakynnDrakynn The Pas, MBPosts: 2,030Member

    I don't really have a problem with the CE editions.

    I'm not thrilled about one race being locked away behind a pay wall already but it's not a deal breaker to me

    The horse I don't care about at all,that normal CE stuff.

    What has turned me away from ESO is the whole play as any race in any faction for pre-orders.If you want to 180 on the whole race faction lock then do it for the core game otherwise it's not a 180 it's just that all their reasons for race locks int he first place was total BS  and it was always just to  do what they are dong now,using it to force people to decide to pre-order sight unseen while still under NDA.

    This coupled with being able to wear armors from other factions(might be wrong on that) and races means no factional identity and they might as well just get rid of factions altogether game mechanic wise and just do Server V Server v Server like GW2.

    This has caused me to have no faith in how they will monetize things in the future and made me give this game a pass and wait for whatever is net on the horizon.

    I'm not mad but I am disappointed.

  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
     

    You're assuming that adding imperials takes as much development time as changing their first person view to one that showed your hands weapons and effects from their original no-hands standard MMO fare FPV?

     

    Imperials are just a skin and a new database entry for their racials. They literally could be coded and added in a day. There is no Imp starting zone, no unique quest lines... adding them is trivial. Not to mention the fact that no one in beta has ever seen them...

     

    And your assumptions about the influence of the bean counters vs. the president and creative director is borrowed from the structure of other companies--EA corporate for example. Zenimax/Bethesda are essentially the very same entity which also happens to be privately held - no stockholders here. Their corporate dynamics are nothing like what you'd see for publicly traded companies that do need to pander to the stock holders.

    Maybe, but youre making assumptions as well. I can say with pretty good certainly that after what we have seen the past week or so the likelihood of their never being any new quests related to Imperials exclusively and them not ever getting a paid for DLC oto create their own area is a lot less than what a lot of peopel would have though before. Even if they assumed Imperials would eventually be added tot he game.

     

    I also suspect that the 'full time' beta people have in fact seen them and if they could without an NDA in place comment.

     

    As far as the 'ease' of them being created, exactly. Why werent they just introduec up front? Well for one they sold the whol 3 races. three alliances rhetoric. Introducing the odd man out too early would have upset that apple cart. But since races and alliances really dont matter now then its OK. They always had them they always were going to make them a playable race. How couldnt they? They have been a playable race in every ES game as far as I know.

     

    And no I am not basing my idea of this company on EA or Sony or anything else I am going by what I see from them with my own two eyes and what I have heard (and not heard) in interviews, especially the most recent ones.

     

    This game as tit has gotten closer and closer to release has taken some pretty extreme course changes. That isnt assumption or opinion either. Now what you blame that on can be. But from EVERYTHING I see and hear to me it is crystal clear.

  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Iselin
     
    ...snip

    And no I am not basing my idea of this company on EA or Sony or anything else I am going by what I see from them with my own two eyes and what I have heard (and not heard) in interviews, especially the most recent ones.

     This game as tit has gotten closer and closer to release has taken some pretty extreme course changes. That isnt assumption or opinion either. Now what you blame that on can be. But from EVERYTHING I see and hear to me it is crystal clear.

    I'm pretty good at reading body language, especially lies. Link me to an interview with a person and I'll tell you if I see any "tell" for untruth.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,618Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Iselin
     

    You're assuming that adding imperials takes as much development time as changing their first person view to one that showed your hands weapons and effects from their original no-hands standard MMO fare FPV?

     

    Imperials are just a skin and a new database entry for their racials. They literally could be coded and added in a day. There is no Imp starting zone, no unique quest lines... adding them is trivial. Not to mention the fact that no one in beta has ever seen them...

     

    And your assumptions about the influence of the bean counters vs. the president and creative director is borrowed from the structure of other companies--EA corporate for example. Zenimax/Bethesda are essentially the very same entity which also happens to be privately held - no stockholders here. Their corporate dynamics are nothing like what you'd see for publicly traded companies that do need to pander to the stock holders.

    Maybe, but youre making assumptions as well. I can say with pretty good certainly that after what we have seen the past week or so the likelihood of their never being any new quests related to Imperials exclusively and them not ever getting a paid for DLC oto create their own area is a lot less than what a lot of peopel would have though before. Even if they assumed Imperials would eventually be added tot he game.

    Any speculation about the future of imperials is about 72 hours old... speculate away in the vein of "anything is possible"

     

    I also suspect that the 'full time' beta people have in fact seen them and if they could without an NDA in place comment.

    No comment 

     

    As far as the 'ease' of them being created, exactly. Why werent they just introduec up front? Well for one they sold the whol 3 races. three alliances rhetoric. Introducing the odd man out too early would have upset that apple cart. But since races and alliances really dont matter now then its OK. They always had them they always were going to make them a playable race. How couldnt they? They have been a playable race in every ES game as far as I know.

    As I already said, you have your speculations and I have mine. Their addition, I suspect, was a hotly debated topic in developer staff meetings until very recently.

     

    And no I am not basing my idea of this company on EA or Sony or anything else I am going by what I see from them with my own two eyes and what I have heard (and not heard) in interviews, especially the most recent ones.

     

    This game as tit has gotten closer and closer to release has taken some pretty extreme course changes. That isnt assumption or opinion either. Now what you blame that on can be. But from EVERYTHING I see and hear to me it is crystal clear.

    I don't understand what "extreme course changes" you're referring to. I can only think of 3:

    • The new enhanced First Person View from 6 months ago
    • The addition of Imperials to the CE
    • The ability to choose which alliance you play in AFTER selecting your race.
    And even calling those "extreme" is debatable. I certainly have my own opinions about them: it goes like meh, meh and hmm. Only the third one bothers me a bit and only because it's potentially too many defectors. But the idea of having a limited number of defectors is something I proposed myself last spring - I even proposed pay-gating that option as a possible way to control it, although I would have preferred a very tough in-game way of doing it.

     

    There have been decisions made that I wouldn't have made--I've got a bellybutton just like everyone else--but I don't see them as extreme or game changing.

  • Effin_RabbitEffin_Rabbit Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 773Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    All seems like things common sense would tell people just from reading the list of included items.  Sad that they felt the need to "clarify" the obvious.

    Common sense isn't so common.

  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by greenreen
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Iselin
     
    ...snip

    And no I am not basing my idea of this company on EA or Sony or anything else I am going by what I see from them with my own two eyes and what I have heard (and not heard) in interviews, especially the most recent ones.

     This game as tit has gotten closer and closer to release has taken some pretty extreme course changes. That isnt assumption or opinion either. Now what you blame that on can be. But from EVERYTHING I see and hear to me it is crystal clear.

    I'm pretty good at reading body language, especially lies. Link me to an interview with a person and I'll tell you if I see any "tell" for untruth.

    you dont need it when they constantly plead the marketing department (like people plead the 5th).

     

    at best they dont know at worst theyre complicit.

     

    Last comment on this. 

     

    NONE of this changes the gameplay for most people at least not in PVE. Whether it will in PvP is really unknown. I suspect PvP will be a lot different than what people have seen or what people expected for a number of reasons.

     

    It simply sets a precedent and sets them up to continue to do it.

     

    The game wasnt sub worthy anyway from everything I have seen and heard. That is my personal opinion. Once a lot more people get their hands on it (I dont need to) they will more than likely feel the same way and retention will bear that out. Another speculation of mine is they will offer some ridiculously "cheap" extended subscription offerings to lock people in for a long time to pump up numbers and get even more money up front. But again that is conjecture but that prediction will take a lot less time to prove or disprove. But something like 14.99/mo 29.99 3 months 49.99 6 month and 89.99 for a year. Which will of course make the fanboys jump for joy because its so 'cheap'. But what they dont see is a situation where they have outlaid 180 or so bux up front for a game they really dont know anything about, and that after their first year is up (which they played less than 3 months of) someone else might be able to come in and play for absolutely nothing. And after 15 months both groups will probably have the same amount of playing time.

     

    GREAT games dont need gimmicks disguised at "rewarding their player base" that whole rewarding the player base is code for charging for something that we should get for free. A truly great ES based MMO would sell on its merits alone and people would gladly pay a fair price to play it.

     

    Drop the NDA let player made stuff come out, let them talk about things that people might want to hear and THEN offer the game for sale.

     

    The post above missed a few things in the list of flip flps and course changes.

     

    Holding the NDA this long and having closed beta this long is not something most people would have foreseen. Whether it is by design or necessity, neither IMO are positive. Offering the game for sale BEFORE said NDA was lifted and still with the game in closed beta is not likely many people would  have foreseen either. Again design or necessity, who knows? Verifying that there is a cash shop in the game that will definitely sell things beyond 'fun stuff' and name changes. Whether it is an actual in game store or a link you press to get to a website is moot, offering access of any kind to things that are exclusive (pay for them in one form or another) is all that matters. A few other things as well that could be listed but technically would violate the NDA. But those were also leaked and can be found, but the way this place it being policed you cant breath anything about the game without getting banned.

     

    So there are about a dozen things actually that have changed about this game within the last 3 or 4 months alone. Some we know some we dont know or at least cant talk about. I am sure within the coming days and few weeks we have there will be even more.

  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,478Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Reklaw
    Originally posted by rodarin
    Originally posted by Reklaw

     

     

    I love the IP  but you are quite mistaken with using the word CE because there is no CE with TESO. It's a DE/DIE(Digital Edition and Digital Imperial Edition). You might have had a point if these where Collector Editions.

     

     

     

     

    There is a physical CE. its 99 bux. most places have sold out of that version already.

    Aha thanks wasn't aware.

    So Zenimax thought of both collectors and gamers who actually want to show something unique ingame.

     

    As a critic of them I think they added the digital CE to make more money. It was focused at the first group of critics the game had, the 'we want free to play or buy to play" crowd. Because it used their mentality of spend a little more you get a little more. REAL fans are going to but the physical box. Fake fans are going to buy the cheaper version but the one that still gives them the Imperial race, and de facto Alliance unlock.

     

    Problem is by setting that precedent they also alienated their first defenders the subscription minded players who think (and rightly so) if a game in this day and age especially is going to go sub fee right off the bat then sub payers should get everything.

     

    What amounts as content and what is fluff has been debated to death. Point is it doesnt matter, they used those things alot of people wanted as bait for them to pre order. Pre ordering a game that is still under a VERY strict NDA policy and one that is still in closed beta. Sure they can cancel a pre order because no money has changed hands yet, but they (Zenimax knows) that once people are in the likelihood of them opting out is slim, especially when they pre ordered after the schenanigans they already pulled.

    I am a fan of ES games and a MMORPG fan but overall I just a gamer looking for fun games to play where a MMORPG should go deeper then all the other game genre's I also love playing.

    As for your comment about REAL fans will buy a physical box you might consider me not a real fan then. I also will not pre-order the game. But I will buy the game at release or slightly afer.

    I just do NOT see those so-called problems many do seem to see with this. Perhaps I have more experiance with games then most who complain about it? Don't know but it really seems silly what type of uproar we get.

    I actually expect people who pre-order to have something or things I can not have. That is why they pay more. I could if I wanted but simply see no reason as I know I am going to enjoy the game even without those extra's.

    I also think that many who complain never seen pre-orders cause let's face it all pre-orders offer things that some person might wished they had. Perhaps not a full race. But atleast Zenimax is given it's players something meaningfull for it's pre-order.

    And if people really get upset by something like this then it doesn't bode well for the rest of the industry or let alone kickstarter projects. Since they are asking and offering allot more for allot more money with little in return as of this moment.

    Guess many aren't really into games but are more into the politics behind the games.

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reklaw

    Guess many aren't really into games but are more into the politics behind the games.

    I agree.. Best sentence I've seen all year.

    image
  • rodarinrodarin camarillo, CAPosts: 576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Reklaw
     

    I am a fan of ES games and a MMORPG fan but overall I just a gamer looking for fun games to play where a MMORPG should go deeper then all the other game genre's I also love playing.

    As for your comment about REAL fans will buy a physical box you might consider me not a real fan then. I also will not pre-order the game. But I will buy the game at release or slightly afer.

    I just do NOT see those so-called problems many do seem to see with this. Perhaps I have more experiance with games then most who complain about it? Don't know but it really seems silly what type of uproar we get.

    I actually expect people who pre-order to have something or things I can not have. That is why they pay more. I could if I wanted but simply see no reason as I know I am going to enjoy the game even without those extra's.

    I also think that many who complain never seen pre-orders cause let's face it all pre-orders offer things that some person might wished they had. Perhaps not a full race. But atleast Zenimax is given it's players something meaningfull for it's pre-order.

    And if people really get upset by something like this then it doesn't bode well for the rest of the industry or let alone kickstarter projects. Since they are asking and offering allot more for allot more money with little in return as of this moment.

    Guess many aren't really into games but are more into the politics behind the games.

    Like I said I was on the fence. I didnt love what I had seen but I didnt hate it either. In terms of the game and the playability of it. But I have seen NOTHING released officially that shows me anything thios game offers as anything different than any other MMO offers. In fact it gives LESS. No AH and  no housing (people can debate that all they want) are the two biggest for me.

     

    But all the stuff we do know and do not know eventually all adds up. it isnt 'politics' it goes right to the core of whether the game is 'worth' what they want for it.

     

    I was even OK with the subscription model IF it were 'worth' it. I said months ago when I started talking about this game that time would tell. I was wrong, or only partially right because time hasnt told because Zenimax hasnt told us....anything.

     

    Their 'blockbuster' reveals in the last month or so have been voice actors  and the CE options. The latter has been crucified by a  large cross section of the game. Only one embracing it are the guys who have a free to play mentality. The people who ordered the IE edition other than them were going to order anyway and the new race didnt matter (at least so they claim), and a video with a couple developers beating a rift. Which the more I look at it looks like they were in God mode because other than one guy getting smashed by half the mobs in the rift no one lost any health and the guy shooting the video never dipped below 50% magika despite spamming massive magika cost spells for the complete duration of the video. And they were one and two shotting most of the mobs. It took them about 15 seconds to beat the 'boss'. Although they did cut screen a few times to maybe make it look alittle different still what I saw was pretty obvious.

     

    Thats it, something a lot of people dont care about, something a lot of people do care about and most dislike and a 'fake' video that is supposed to show ACTUAL gameplay.

     

    Oh yeah and the trailer, a complete CGI hype fest that is misleading to most people because it intimates that the actual game play will look like this. So theyre hoping the Skyrim people who dont read forums or dont look up stuff will watch that and think that is a good facsimile of actual gameplay, and it worked because osme people did think that look at their facebook page.

     

    So basically ANYTHING associated with the game world so far has been manufactored in a VERY favorable way.

     

    It all just adds up.

     

    There ARE some things I like about it, but theyre not special and they are things that ANY AAA MMO with the money spent this one allegedly has spent would and should have. There is just no WOW (not world of warcraft) factor. Something that when you see it and know that you will be abole to do it in the game is mindblowingly awesome.

     

    Do those things exist? We dont know because no one is releasing anything. And when they are like I said above it is manufactored and faked or doctored or made by guys who arent playing 'avergae' characters but developer buffed ones.

     

    I would LOVE to play the game. I just wont continue to feed the machine that produces stuff that isnt worth it. I also dont think that by NOT playing it I will be missing out on anything special. I figure when it goes free to play or buy to play with a vastly reduced box price it will have more stuff in it. Whether it has the population to make it worth it is the only unknown.

  • funyahnsfunyahns michigan city, INPosts: 315Member
     So they said that what they did was definitely not shady, good enough for me.  Cause any time a company does something questionable they self police themselves and admit that they may have overstepped a bit.
  • HairysunHairysun none, OHPosts: 1,060Member
    Originally posted by funyahns
     So they said that what they did was definitely not shady, good enough for me.  Cause any time a company does something questionable they self police themselves and admit that they may have overstepped a bit.

    Exactly what I was thinking .....

     

    This just in:  All non CE copies of the game will come with a small packet of vaseline as you will never be able play the Imperial Race.  Perhaps never is too strong a word.  Once ESO goes F2P you will be able to pick up the Imperial Race for a nominal fee.

     

    Additionally, check out our new Kick Starter Campaign to release the NDA.  Goal is $100K and we're accepting pledges as small as $1.  Bonuses for larger donations include ...... The Imperial Playable Race and Cool Horse Mounts.

     

     

    Good time to be a gamer

     

     

     

  • Neo_LibertyNeo_Liberty Lufkin, TXPosts: 429Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hairysun
    Originally posted by funyahns
     So they said that what they did was definitely not shady, good enough for me.  Cause any time a company does something questionable they self police themselves and admit that they may have overstepped a bit.

    Exactly what I was thinking .....

     

    This just in:  All non CE copies of the game will come with a small packet of vaseline as you will never be able play the Imperial Race.  Perhaps never is too strong a word.  Once ESO goes F2P you will be able to pick up the Imperial Race for a nominal fee.

     

    Additionally, check out our new Kick Starter Campaign to release the NDA.  Goal is $100K and we're accepting pledges as small as $1.  Bonuses for larger donations include ...... The Imperial Playable Race and Cool Horse Mounts.

     

     

    Good time to be a gamer

     

     

     

    yes, it is definitely a good time to be a gamer.

    image
  • rguilbertrguilbert Key West, FLPosts: 107Member
    Originally posted by funyahns
     So they said that what they did was definitely not shady, good enough for me.  Cause any time a company does something questionable they self police themselves and admit that they may have overstepped a bit.

    Perfectly put. 

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by Hairysun

    Exactly what I was thinking ..... 

    This just in:  All non CE copies of the game will come with a small packet of vaseline as you will never be able play the Imperial Race.  Perhaps never is too strong a word.  Once ESO goes F2P you will be able to pick up the Imperial Race for a nominal fee.

     Additionally, check out our new Kick Starter Campaign to release the NDA.  Goal is $100K and we're accepting pledges as small as $1.  Bonuses for larger donations include ...... The Imperial Playable Race and Cool Horse Mounts.

    Good time to be a gamer 

    Pay more attention.  Anyone can upgrade to the digital Imperial Edition at any time after launch.  No waiting for a free option necessary.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

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