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How do you feel about mmorpg databases?

SawlstoneSawlstone barrie, ONPosts: 301Member

I was thinking yesterday as I logged in to wow yet again after a long break. If there was never a www.thottbot.com or www.allakhazam.com that eventually led to the amazing www.wowhead.com would my feelings regarding World of Warcraft be the same. My feeling is simple. I want to discover, explore and learn in an mmorpg.

I'm sure there must have been websites like these for other earlier games but for me these are the ones l discovered for myself and they changed my experience drastically. Starting out in a new game and discovering things yourself is how it was meant to be. Asking a traveller who you meant in game for directions or a tip on where to find a quest is how it was meant to be. Somedays in wow, all you get is L2google....

Now I absolutely salute the people behind such amazing websites that are invaluable for some players. I just wonder if players today placing too much blame on a developer saying a game is completely on rails, whien in fact the shear infromation surrounding a game is jsut saturating their perspective.

One statement that is without a doubt true. Mmorpgs would not seem as on 'rails' if databases didn't exsist. How do you feel? 

 

I just realised I posted this in the wrong spot :( Now I know why I don't start threads lol.

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Comments

  • SawlstoneSawlstone barrie, ONPosts: 301Member
    Please move to wow general/ general or delete.
  • BetaguyBetaguy Halifax, NSPosts: 2,590Member
    Originally posted by Sawlstone

    I was thinking yesterday as I logged in to wow yet again after a long break. If there was never a www.thottbot.com or www.allakhazam.com that eventually led to the amazing www.wowhead.com would my feelings regarding World of Warcraft be the same. My feeling is simple. I want to discover, explore and learn in an mmorpg.

    I'm sure there must have been websites like these for other earlier games but for me these are the ones l discovered for myself and they changed my experience drastically. Starting out in a new game and discovering things yourself is how it was meant to be. Asking a traveller who you meant in game for directions or a tip on where to find a quest is how it was meant to be. Somedays in wow, all you get is L2google....

    Now I absolutely salute the people behind such amazing websites that are invaluable for some players. I just wonder if players today placing too much blame on a developer saying a game is completely on rails, whien in fact the shear infromation surrounding a game is jsut saturating their perspective.

    One statement that is without a doubt true. Mmorpgs would not seem as on 'rails' if databases didn't exsist. How do you feel? 

     

    I just realised I posted this in the wrong spot :( Now I know why I don't start threads lol.

     I don't use them for the very reason you explained, exploration of the unkown. I don't like or use any kind of walkthroughs for any game on any platform.

    image

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Sawlstone

    Now I absolutely salute the people behind such amazing websites that are invaluable for some players. I just wonder if players today placing too much blame on a developer saying a game is completely on rails, whien in fact the shear infromation surrounding a game is jsut saturating their perspective.

    One statement that is without a doubt true. Mmorpgs would not seem as on 'rails' if databases didn't exsist. How do you feel?

    Those websites help in many ways beyond quest advice. I like reading the comments on Wowhead on the quests (if it's not the usual driveby stuff), as it offers more info and sometimes more history.

     

    Perfect example is like fighting the pet battle trainers in WoW. Now you can spend an hour trying to figure the right pet classes to use (and lose your win ratio in the process), or you can goto places like Wowhead and study the advice players offered. I was remembering how folks were saying one trainer was brutal to get through (a gate?). But I went in and within 3 tries completed it. Then came back and added my 2 cents so the next Joe won't feel like it'll take rocket science to win. I do it also for those Holy paladins wanting a challenge to down content as a healer (it's actually fun thinking out of the box to do it).

     

    BTW, WoW got the "questing on rails" term because how the quests were laid out into hubs in Cata. No longer could you just pick up a quest while traveling, you have to first complete a whole series of quests to start another in a different zone. THAT got old quick, as you had to even track down the breadcrumb quests to even get a chance to talk with another zone quest giver. It's a lot of wasted back-to-back traveling that mimics Archaeology (ugh!).

     

    But over all those sites add more to questing than just a paper in your journal. If you're a avid quester they'll be your trusted friend as it'll take a year to get the Loremaster achieve, and to complete all the quests...years.

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    I wish there was a way to delete all gameplay  information about every videogame from the internet except perhaps tough puzzles. It would make them a lot more fun to play to be forced to figure things out yourself or with friends like the old days. Unfortunately that will obvious  never happen
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member

    Those sites are very useful. They save time for chores like looking for NPC and stuff.

    Running around a city to look for a NPC is easy-mode (no challenge, just tedium .. for me of course), and database sites help.

    Also, more convenient to min-max gear.

     

  • IGaveUpIGaveUp NW, INPosts: 273Member

    When I first started WoW, also my first MMORPG, and I learned of the "look up your quest" web sites...

     

    I considered it cheating.

     

    I also was never a fan of "hint books" for RPGs, and felt the same way about them.

     

    I use them when I have to because of poorly written quests, or when I have zero immersion in the game and just want to plow through game mechanics to level my character.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

    When I first started WoW, also my first MMORPG, and I learned of the "look up your quest" web sites...

     

    I considered it cheating.

     

    I also was never a fan of "hint books" for RPGs, and felt the same way about them.

     

    I use them when I have to because of poorly written quests, or when I have zero immersion in the game and just want to plow through game mechanics to level my character.

    You can't even do group quests anymore without looking up how to do them -- the group will kick you.

     

    Same applies to dungeons/raids/RBGs.

     

    Because all the information available you're expected to know. Arrive too lazy to read the write up, you'll leave for being too "clever" to not to read.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

    When I first started WoW, also my first MMORPG, and I learned of the "look up your quest" web sites...

     

    I considered it cheating.

     

    I also was never a fan of "hint books" for RPGs, and felt the same way about them.

     

    I use them when I have to because of poorly written quests, or when I have zero immersion in the game and just want to plow through game mechanics to level my character.

    You can't even do group quests anymore without looking up how to do them -- the group will kick you.

     

    Same applies to dungeons/raids/RBGs.

     

    Because all the information available you're expected to know. Arrive too lazy to read the write up, you'll leave for being too "clever" to not to read.

    he can always play solo.

  • ste2000ste2000 londonPosts: 4,705Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sawlstone

    One statement that is without a doubt true. Mmorpgs would not seem as on 'rails' if databases didn't exsist. How do you feel? 

    Nah............ the problem is the Quest Hubbing System.

    You don't even have to check ZAM or any other database site to progress fast in a MMO, you only need to follow hub after hub on autopilot.

    That's the problem of modern MMOs

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

    When I first started WoW, also my first MMORPG, and I learned of the "look up your quest" web sites...

     

    I considered it cheating.

     

    I also was never a fan of "hint books" for RPGs, and felt the same way about them.

     

    I use them when I have to because of poorly written quests, or when I have zero immersion in the game and just want to plow through game mechanics to level my character.

    You can't even do group quests anymore without looking up how to do them -- the group will kick you.

     

    Same applies to dungeons/raids/RBGs.

     

    Because all the information available you're expected to know. Arrive too lazy to read the write up, you'll leave for being too "clever" to not to read.

    he can always play solo.

    Go ahead, Nari. I'm sure you can play tank/healer/DPS to the tune of 10+ players and solo SoO to finish those quests!

     

    lololol

     

    Good luck!

     

    ICC  was the epitome of raid quests/dailies and rep grinding. Even now, and 2 expansions after, my sis (a decked out Arcane mage) and another DPS couldn't solo it all...no heals (/flex) to get past Sindy.

  • NildenNilden null, NBPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ste2000
    Originally posted by Sawlstone

    One statement that is without a doubt true. Mmorpgs would not seem as on 'rails' if databases didn't exsist. How do you feel? 

    Nah............ the problem is the Quest Hubbing System.

    You don't even have to check ZAM or any other database site to progress fast in a MMO, you only need to follow hub after hub on autopilot.

    That's the problem of modern MMOs

    While I agree with you it's more than that. Back in the day I used ZAM and printed off maps. I would also use Magelo way back when. This is 2014 where you can do item searches in game and have glowing lines that guide you to your destination. You even have games that will auto-walk your character to your destination. Not only do they have in game maps but they are interactive as well as linked to your quest tracker.

    Let's face it the amount of stuff put into these games that would have been looked up is huge and a large part of what takes away the challenge in these games when too much information is presented to the players. Don't get me wrong a lot of this is just better quality of life type things but you can go overboard with too much auto-pilot hand-holding as well as information overload.

    From personal experience my guess is a lot of these MMORPG database sites will see less traffic (from me anyway) as more and more of the information is available either in game or on youtube.

    How to post links.

    "classification of games into MMOs is not by rational reasoning" - nariusseldon
    Love Minecraft. And check out my Youtube channel OhCanadaGamer

  • MavolenceMavolence Appleton, WIPosts: 612Member Uncommon
    I always thought  it was pretty lame and people who can't play without it are just thick. People gonna do what they like so I'm not going to try to stop anyone having a good time if it doesn't affect me.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by nilden

    From personal experience my guess is a lot of these MMORPG database sites will see less traffic (from me anyway) as more and more of the information is available either in game or on youtube.

    The reason sites like Wowhead is popular is the comments, because it's the comments that offer the tips. Ingame tips Blizzard was specific they won't explain it all and YouTube is one players perspective. Can get over 100 insights how to down a boss, instead (and some broken down by class and role, too).

     

    So no they'll remain viable for a l-o-n-g time.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

    When I first started WoW, also my first MMORPG, and I learned of the "look up your quest" web sites...

     

    I considered it cheating.

     

    I also was never a fan of "hint books" for RPGs, and felt the same way about them.

     

    I use them when I have to because of poorly written quests, or when I have zero immersion in the game and just want to plow through game mechanics to level my character.

    You can't even do group quests anymore without looking up how to do them -- the group will kick you.

     

    Same applies to dungeons/raids/RBGs.

     

    Because all the information available you're expected to know. Arrive too lazy to read the write up, you'll leave for being too "clever" to not to read.

    he can always play solo.

    Go ahead, Nari. I'm sure you can play tank/healer/DPS to the tune of 10+ players and solo SoO to finish those quests!

     

    lololol

     

    Good luck!

     

    ICC  was the epitome of raid quests/dailies and rep grinding. Even now, and 2 expansions after, my sis (a decked out Arcane mage) and another DPS couldn't solo it all...no heals (/flex) to get past Sindy.

    who says in the same game? Just switch to another game and play solo content .. heck .. even wow has some of that, although i prefer solo content of many other games.

    Or use LFD/LFR .. that is almost as good as solo. In fact, you can afk in LFR and still finish the raid.

     

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,669Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence
    I wish there was a way to delete all gameplay  information about every videogame from the internet except perhaps tough puzzles. It would make them a lot more fun to play to be forced to figure things out yourself or with friends like the old days. Unfortunately that will obvious  never happen

    Sound like an excellent idea. Out of curiosity, who decides the cutoff point where "tough" begins?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by iridescence
    I wish there was a way to delete all gameplay  information about every videogame from the internet except perhaps tough puzzles. It would make them a lot more fun to play to be forced to figure things out yourself or with friends like the old days. Unfortunately that will obvious  never happen

    Sound like an excellent idea. Out of curiosity, who decides the cutoff point where "tough" begins?

    The guy with the most drool on his shirt...so pretty much where we are right now.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by iridescence
    I wish there was a way to delete all gameplay  information about every videogame from the internet except perhaps tough puzzles. It would make them a lot more fun to play to be forced to figure things out yourself or with friends like the old days. Unfortunately that will obvious  never happen

    Sound like an excellent idea. Out of curiosity, who decides the cutoff point where "tough" begins?

    And a totally impractical idea. And a silly one at that.

    If you want to figure things out, don't read the solution on the internet. Why do you want to stop other people from doing so? You don't decide what is fun for others. If it is fun to figure things out, they will.

    I find it strange to try to force other people to play games as you would.

     

  • funyahnsfunyahns michigan city, INPosts: 315Member
     Yeah I dislike a lot of the information just because it takes away the sense of exploring. Now I think that they have their place for telling you what items monsters drop, or what zone I can find specific items in.  I am hoping EQN has a good way of randomly spawning rooms and monsters so that you can never be sure of how a pull is to be done, or where an actual named boss is.  Would love to see giant dungeon zones that you can dig through with possible boss mobs anywhere.  That would also stop people from being able to camp the same spawn for days on end.
  • srsnoobsrsnoob New Orleans, LAPosts: 44Member
    To some extent, with regards to quests, I agree but I hope that nobody considers asking other players in game for help or information as "cheating." Discussion and helping others is what drives the social components in any MMO. I think for games where class or item mechanics are not straightforward, these websites and videos guides are important resources for learning how to get better. So in that respect I am glad we have them. But my personal preference is to try to improve myself first before reading up on it. This way I can explore and generate my own ideas before incorporating others ideas into my playstyle.
  • AldersAlders Jack Burton'sPosts: 1,857Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by RealmLordsKen

    When I first started WoW, also my first MMORPG, and I learned of the "look up your quest" web sites...

     

    I considered it cheating.

     

    I also was never a fan of "hint books" for RPGs, and felt the same way about them.

     

    I use them when I have to because of poorly written quests, or when I have zero immersion in the game and just want to plow through game mechanics to level my character.

    You can't even do group quests anymore without looking up how to do them -- the group will kick you.

     

    Same applies to dungeons/raids/RBGs.

     

    Because all the information available you're expected to know. Arrive too lazy to read the write up, you'll leave for being too "clever" to not to read.

    he can always play solo.

    Go ahead, Nari. I'm sure you can play tank/healer/DPS to the tune of 10+ players and solo SoO to finish those quests!

     

    lololol

     

    Good luck!

     

    ICC  was the epitome of raid quests/dailies and rep grinding. Even now, and 2 expansions after, my sis (a decked out Arcane mage) and another DPS couldn't solo it all...no heals (/flex) to get past Sindy.

    In fact, you can afk in LFR and still finish the raid.

     

     

    This is  why we can't have nice things.

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 953Member Uncommon

    My question is how does the existence of third party info sites affect players?  My conclusion is, it produces informed opponents.  The OP implied that access to information destroys the wonder and discovery in these games.  I say that unless the information is provided without request, there is no harm to discovery.

     

    All claims about hand holding are false.  One, the mod has to be installed, therefore the hand holding is sought.  Two, If the complaint is about in game “Tutorial / Information Dialogs”, these can typically be turned off in the options either before the games starts or soon after.  No,  the true problem is not the individuals access to this information, but everyone else’s access.  The OP and their kind are not complaining about their exposure to this information, they can control that themselves.  They are complaining about your level of information that they can not control, outside of forum rants.

     

    An uninformed opponent is a disadvantaged opponent, and this is their favorite kind.


    People who make games can see through this kind of post, and ignore them.

     

    Every complaint about video games is a complaint about the existence of game balance.  Every player suggestion is to achieve imbalance and an exploitable advantage.  The answer to why they wont make the game you want.  Because no Developer will make a game with the exploits that you want.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • dave6660dave6660 New York, NYPosts: 2,543Member Uncommon
    I think if the game is so easy that all it takes is Google to best most of the content then it's not worth playing.

    “There are certain queer times and occasions in this strange mixed affair we call life when a man takes this whole universe for a vast practical joke, though the wit thereof he but dimly discerns, and more than suspects that the joke is at nobody's expense but his own.”
    -- Herman Melville

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 953Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dave6660
    I think if the game is so easy that all it takes is Google to best most of the content then it's not worth playing.

    Spoken like a Fan of FPSs, where the best hardware is mistaken for skill.  Whenever I read these kinds of posts I point out, Look To The Stars.  It is a level 25 multi-part quest.  The first part is a delivery quest, aka FedEx.  You look for a Bronze Tube.

    The quest doesn’t tell you who or where to find this, except to find a Skilled Engineer.  Lets suppose you ask in chat and instead of being told to google it, you are told it is a crafted item.  We may learn or have found that a vendor in town sells the item. Or we find a crafter to make us one.

    This is IMO a great quest.  It is multi-part, and multi-genre quest.  I believe it is a quest that can be done with / without third party information.

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon
    Always resented the existence of the MMORPG databases.   It didn't stop me from using them, even swearing by them at some points.  Still, in hindsight it would have probably been cooler if they didn't exist.

    image
  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
     

    You can't even do group quests anymore without looking up how to do them -- the group will kick you.

     

    Same applies to dungeons/raids/RBGs.

     

    Because all the information available you're expected to know. Arrive too lazy to read the write up, you'll leave for being too "clever" to not to read.

    yupp. I really hate that. Games are suppossed to give you that sense of discovery and learning by playing. I should not need to read a manual to join a group content, but thats how developers are making mmos with all the focus on strict raid/bg/arena crap based on specific class builds.

    image
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