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Gaming Companies Have Gone Too Far

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  • orionblackorionblack Wichita Falls, TXMember Posts: 493 Uncommon
    imageWell said Zaga...well said.
  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAMember Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by TangentPoint
    -shrug- I don't see the problem either way. The way I see it: A number of people had a problem with the way races and factions were set up. A number of people didn't. They provided an for those who would like it, and find it worth paying a little extra for. For those who like the idea, they get to enjoy playing an Imperial. For those who didn't care, they'll continue playing what they had likely intended to anyway. No one loses.  Using myself as an example... I intend to play a Dark Elf and explore the lands of Morrowind. If the option to play an Imperial was in the game for everyone, I wouldn't be pursuing it regardless because I have no interest in it. Hence, I wouldn't be spending the extra money to unlock it. Likewise, whether others have that option or not means nothing to me. I'm playing the game the way I enjoy. So are they. More people playing as they enjoy = more people to play with = more fun for everyone. Everyone wins. If the option did appeal to me and I felt it worthwhile, then I'd consider whether the additional cost was worth it. If it was, then I'd buy it, roll up an Imperial and decide where to start. Again.. I'm playing the game the way I enjoy. Others are playing the game the way they enjoy. Everyone wins. It's not like you get some kind of power advantage over others with it. They're not selling power. It's not part of the "core game", or it would be included. They're selling some additional fluff. Same game.. Still gotta pick a race. Still gotta pick a faction. Still gotta get through the content like everyone else. You just get to do it in a different skin.  -shrug-  I could see why people are upset by it... I do agree their timing seems a bit off... But I don't see anything in the situation that would make it a deal-breaker for me personally.

    Don't be so rational, it doesn't belong here!

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • GaendricGaendric Member Posts: 569 Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

    It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

     

    Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

    I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

    That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

    "apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

    If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

  • GaendricGaendric Member Posts: 569 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zaga
    Do we really need this thread with every new game that comes out?   Many years ago, this business had only one widely accepted business model: Box sales + fixed monthly subscription. But that ship has sailed... years ago.   People now get to choose not only between different games, but also between different business models. Taking offense at the business model someone chooses to support makes you seem like one of those idiots who become offended at someone else's choice of game to subscribe to, back in the "good old days".   The advice we can give you is also the same as what any of us would have told those idiots: if you don't like it, don't buy it, don't play it. In modern times, may I add don't spend money on that game's preorder, or in that game's cash shop.   I'm not touching ESO with a ten foot pole, but guess what? I'm ok with everyone else having their 99 bucks worth of Imperial fun in any faction (or whatever it is). And I'm sure all future ESO players are ok with me not joining them. Zenimax must be ok with that too, because they sure as hell didn't decide on a business model without surveying what kind of player base it would get them, so they already know that some Elder Scrolls fans, like me, are out. And they still decided to go for it, so either I'm not any kind of majority, or they are going to crash and burn soon. Either way there's nothing for me to find "unfair" there.   You may keep playing sub-based games, and others may not. Once you learn to live with it, everybody's happy.

    Fully agree.

    Besides the namecalling. That was uncalled for and just weakens your arguments.

    People really need to understand that companies can't arbitrarily set prices. The market sets the prices. Not buying is how you can influence the process if you don't like the price they suggest.

     

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingMember Posts: 1,211 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

    It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

     

    Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

    I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

    That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

    "apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

    If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

    It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

     

    Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghMember Posts: 4,270
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

    It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

     

    Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

    I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

    That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

    "apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

    If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

     

    My arguments have already been posted on the matter, this post was just based on my annoyance at people wanting to stop the discussion altogether by posting rude comments.

    Regarding 'apathetic MMO locusts' ... how else would you describe the masses that descend on every new MMO, claim that it is faultless and that the whiners need to shut up, and then leave in droves months later?  Seems like a pretty apt description of pretty much every single MMO launch since EQ2 / WoW.  ESO will be no different.

  • GaendricGaendric Member Posts: 569 Uncommon
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

    It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

     

    Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

    I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

    That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

    "apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

    If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

    It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

     

    Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

    He used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

    If he is just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

    If I understood it wrong, then shame on me.

     

  • GaendricGaendric Member Posts: 569 Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro   My arguments have already been posted on the matter, this post was just based on my annoyance at people wanting to stop the discussion altogether by posting rude comments.

    I totally agree to that part. I am annoyed too, hence my post frenzy. :p

    We come here for good discussions not for an onslaught of attacks, cuss words and fallacies.

     

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingMember Posts: 1,211 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

    It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

     

    Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

    I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

    That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

    "apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

    If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

    It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

     

    Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

    You used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

    If you are just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

    If I understood you wrong, then shame on me.

     

    Well I'm not namecalling for namecalling sake. I didn't even use the word "locust". You were calling for a balanced discussion and I thought he had a point. I acknowledged it was hyperbole and that it was insulting and I didn't place myself completely above the insult. I just thought there was some truth in there and thought it worth exploring. I can understand why you may have thought I was trying to "weaken the counter argument" though and I'm not completely free of bias so there is no need for shame.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIMember Posts: 995 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by evilastro   My arguments have already been posted on the matter, this post was just based on my annoyance at people wanting to stop the discussion altogether by posting rude comments.

    I totally agree to that part. I am annoyed too, hence my post frenzy. :p

    We come here for good discussions not for an onslaught of attacks, cuss words and fallacies.

     

     

    Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

  • GaendricGaendric Member Posts: 569 Uncommon
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

    It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

     

    Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

    I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

    That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

    "apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

    If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

    It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

     

    Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

    You used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

    If you are just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

    If I understood you wrong, then shame on me.

     

    Well I'm not namecalling for namecalling sake. I didn't even use the word "locust". You were calling for a balanced discussion and I thought he had a point. I acknowledged it was hyperbole and that it was insulting and I didn't place myself completely above the insult. I just thought there was some truth in there and thought it worth exploring. I can understand why you may have thought I was trying to "weaken the counter argument" though and I'm not completely free of bias so there is no need for shame.

    Yeah that was my bad, you were referring to my comment on someone else's post. I thought it was yours. Sorry.

     

  • plat0nicplat0nic new york, NYMember Posts: 301
    After 15 years of MMO's one thing I've learned is that I have NEVER been happy if I've played the shit out of an open-beta and run my powergame on a new release.  Of the 15 or so mmorpgs i've made my b*tch, all but a couple lasted the 2 month test. With age comes wisdom, and I THINK I may just sit out the release on ESO and give it a month or two before i bust my nut all over it. Every time I hit endgame I get dissapointed with the lack of vision. It's like they didn't know people would max out in the first week. Maybe I'll just give the company the benefit of the doubt this time, and expect that they don't know people are going to max out in a week and give them their buffer to come out with and end game pvp grind or pve that makes sense. 

    image
    Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)
    2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghMember Posts: 4,270
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    He used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy.  If he is just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one. If I understood it wrong, then shame on me.  

     

    The MMO locust comment wasn't intended as an attack on Cephus' character, it was more of an observation of the industry as a whole.  New game comes out with obvious flaws, some people try to point them out and get shut down by cries of 'Shut up and don't play if you don't like it!', then a few months down the track servers are closing and the same locusts have moved on to the next big thing.

    These type of players aren't interested in sustainable MMO worlds, only in their own enjoyment for a few months, which is fine but it's not helpful for the industry in the long run.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAMember Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by killion81 Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

    You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIMember Posts: 995 Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81 Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

    You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

     

    Yes, I also realize that some people are wrong and others are right.  Opinions impact people's perception, but they don't necessarily change whether they are wrong or right.  Reality doesn't change because of opinions :) 

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingMember Posts: 1,211 Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Gaendric
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

    It's quite simple. If you don't like what he's saying.... DON'T READ THE FUCKING THREAD!

    Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

     

     

    Works both ways you see. Stop trying to stifle discussion about issues that MMO players are concerned about. If you aren't concerned about it, feel free to say so without being rude.  Most people who think this is poor form probably won't play the game, but they don't want it to set an industry trend / standard for games they actually want to play in the future because apathetic MMO locusts don't care enough to stand up for their convictions.

    I agree his post was inappropiate and bad form.

    That doesn't mean you should answer with fallacies though.

    "apathetic MMO locusts"? Really? You point fingers at others while doing the same?

    If you want to argue, post real arguments, not ad hominems.

    It's insulting and it's hyperbole (thanks for teaching me that word too :) ) but is it really a fallacy? I know that once upon a time I could have been described as being just that and judging by my impressions of people on forums such as these and my understanding of initial playerbase followed by a sharp decline every major release I don't think I was alone. I wouldn't have liked it and it would have been an exaggeration but I don't think it's completely false.

     

    Either way, I agree, people need to calm down.

    You used the attack to weaken the counter-argument's side by attaching these negative traits to them. That's why I understood it as fallacy. 

    If you are just namecalling for the namecalling's sake without having it influence the arguments/discussion, then I agree it wouldn't be one.

    If I understood you wrong, then shame on me.

     

    Well I'm not namecalling for namecalling sake. I didn't even use the word "locust". You were calling for a balanced discussion and I thought he had a point. I acknowledged it was hyperbole and that it was insulting and I didn't place myself completely above the insult. I just thought there was some truth in there and thought it worth exploring. I can understand why you may have thought I was trying to "weaken the counter argument" though and I'm not completely free of bias so there is no need for shame.

    Yeah that was my bad, you were referring to my comment on someone else's post. I thought it was yours. Sorry.

     

    No problem, I think I've done it more than once. It wasn't necessary but thanks for apologizing.

  • GaendricGaendric Member Posts: 569 Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81 Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

    You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

    If this thread has shown anything, then that there indeed are very varied opinions on this.

     

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAMember Posts: 2,198

    Originally posted by killion81

     Yes, I also realize that some people are wrong and others are right.  Opinions impact people's perception, but they don't necessarily change whether they are wrong or right.  Reality doesn't change because of opinions :) 
    And do you realize that feeling very strongly about your opinion doesn't suddenly morph it into The One And Only Truth On The Matter?

    Originally posted by Gaendric

    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81 Don't forget the paid shills.  Well, I assume they are paid shills.  You would have to be to completely ignore all reason and maintain illogical opinions that are detrimental to the consumer.  I mean, they're consumers too.  I'd think you'd have to be paid to sell out like that.

    You do realize that not everyone has the same honest opinion about what is detrimental to consumers, right?

    If this thread has shown anything, then that there indeed are very varied opinions on this.

    Oh no, didn't you get the memo? Anyone who disagrees with the Correct View must be a "paid shill," because it isn't possible to actually disagree with The Truth.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • aaradunaaradun Montreal, QCMember Posts: 91

    OP, what rock have you been living under. the collector edition is not new pretty much all MMO even the F2P had it.

    As for the Imperial thing, it's just really an additional race that you can play on either side. you won't be able to go to the other side, you just pick a side and start with that race. An additional Race is not content, it's no more then having to buy a class in a lot of F2p games. nothing really special about it.

    Your just making a big fuss for really nothing. There's no additional content, it's just a different race you can start with sheesh.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIMember Posts: 995 Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81  Yes, I also realize that some people are wrong and others are right.  Opinions impact people's perception, but they don't necessarily change whether they are wrong or right.  Reality doesn't change because of opinions :) 
    And do you realize that feeling very strongly about your opinion doesn't suddenly morph it into The One And Only Truth On The Matter?

     

    Absolutely.  My opinions don't create reality.  However, reality does heavily influence my opinions.

     

    Regarding harming consumers, when consumers receive less value at a higher cost, they have received harm as a whole.  Any action that reduces the value provided to the consumer while maintaining the same cost or increasing the cost is an action that harms consumers.  This is the reality of the situation.  

     

    The decisions made by Zenimax have reduced the value provided to the consumer while increasing the cost or require greater cost to maintain similar value, in comparison to competing options.  Other opinions are fine, but unless they can show that the consumer is not receiving less value (than competing products) for the same price or the same value (as competing products) for a higher price, they are not correct if they conclude that the consumer has not been harmed by the business decisions made by Zenimax.  It can be taken even further in that if these decisions are considered successful in the MMORPG market, it is more likely that companies will make similar decisions in the future, causing even more harm to consumers.

  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaMember Posts: 1,053 Uncommon
    Originally posted by orionblack
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Cephus404
    It's quite simple.  If you don't like what they're doing... DON'T PLAY THE FUCKING GAME! Wow, it's simple when you think about it.

    yeah .. i really don't understand the rant ... people are talking as if companies are taking their babies away. We are just talking about games. If one does not work for you for whatever reasons, do something else!

    There are good tv, good movies, good novels, good comics ..... no devs owe anyone a game that they have to like, at a price or business model that they like.

     

    If your only objective is to ridicule or downplay my thread, I see no purpose in you even participating in it. Unless you have some meaningful contribution to the discussion at hand, I suggest you keep your snide comments to yourself as they do good to no one. I'm surprised I have to tell this to a 49 year old...

    Because he's not trying to down play or ridicule you, if you are an adult as you make it seem , then the simplest thing to do in this situation is..Don't buy the game.

    Regardless on how you feel on the subject ,game companies will simply keep doing these kind of thing until the GENERAL PUBLIC no longer support it.

    So yeah...alot of people do not understand why the whining about the pre order.

    And yeah...if this kind of thing makes you angry enough to yell and preach, then maybe just maybe we all should all just take a step back and realise that it is just a video game.....nothing more.

    Downplay = make something seem less important; Ridicule = Mock. Instead of presenting something meaningful he basically said: "I don't understand this because it seems unimportant to me." How does that contribute at all? Furthermore, what do people think forums are for? Praising and agreeing with everything the favored game developer does? A place where it's either "buy or don't buy", no debating allowed? It's a place for discussions, and this is one of them, so if people see no purpose in this 'whine', why bother to come in here in the first place?

  • GaendricGaendric Member Posts: 569 Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro
     New game comes out with obvious flaws, some people try to point them out and get shut down by cries of 'Shut up and don't play if you don't like it!', then a few months down the track servers are closing and the same locusts have moved on to the next big thing. These type of players aren't interested in sustainable MMO worlds, only in their own enjoyment for a few months, which is fine but it's not helpful for the industry in the long run.

    I totally agree the "shut up & don't play it!" cries should never drown out valid complaints. 

    We as gamers should all want successful games, that is what strengthens the market and gives us better games in future.

     

    In the context of this thread, "Don't buy it." does apply though (if delivered politely and with a real argument/explanation attached), because that is how a consumer can influence the market. 

    You vote with your wallet. Companies will listen to that. (much more than to anything else I would guess)

     

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAMember Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by killion81 Absolutely.  My opinions don't create reality.  However, reality does heavily influence my opinions.  Regarding harming consumers, when consumers receive less value at a higher cost, they have received harm as a whole.  Any action that reduces the value provided to the consumer while maintaining the same cost or increasing the cost is an action that harms consumers.  This is the reality of the situation.    The decisions made by Zenimax have reduced the value provided to the consumer while increasing the cost or require greater cost to maintain similar value, in comparison to competing options.  Other opinions are fine, but unless they can show that the consumer is not receiving less value (than competing products) for the same price or the same value (as competing products) for a higher price, they are not correct if they conclude that the consumer has not been harmed by the business decisions made by Zenimax.  It can be taken even further in that if these decisions are considered successful in the MMORPG market, it is more likely that companies will make similar decisions in the future, causing even more harm to consumers.

    That is your interpretation of reality.  What is "harmful," in a financial sense, is a matter of opinion, not fact.  If the customer feels like he has received sufficient value for what he paid, he hasn't been harmed, no matter what he paid.  It could be $1.00, it could be $1,000.00.  Prices are not fixed at some arbitrary point.  Companies are not required to offer everything in the game for the price of the sub, and players are not required to give companies any money and play their games.  There is no right and wrong here, just choices and consequences.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIMember Posts: 995 Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81 Absolutely.  My opinions don't create reality.  However, reality does heavily influence my opinions.  Regarding harming consumers, when consumers receive less value at a higher cost, they have received harm as a whole.  Any action that reduces the value provided to the consumer while maintaining the same cost or increasing the cost is an action that harms consumers.  This is the reality of the situation.    The decisions made by Zenimax have reduced the value provided to the consumer while increasing the cost or require greater cost to maintain similar value, in comparison to competing options.  Other opinions are fine, but unless they can show that the consumer is not receiving less value (than competing products) for the same price or the same value (as competing products) for a higher price, they are not correct if they conclude that the consumer has not been harmed by the business decisions made by Zenimax.  It can be taken even further in that if these decisions are considered successful in the MMORPG market, it is more likely that companies will make similar decisions in the future, causing even more harm to consumers.

    That is your interpretation of reality.  What is "harmful," in a financial sense, is a matter of opinion, not fact.  If the customer feels like he has received sufficient value for what he paid, he hasn't been harmed, no matter what he paid.  It could be $1.00, it could be $1,000.00.  Prices are not fixed at some arbitrary point.  Companies are not required to offer everything in the game for the price of the sub, and players are not required to give companies any money and play their games.  There is no right and wrong here, just choices and consequences.

     

    Perceived value is fantastic for marketing and a great way to dupe people into paying more for something than the market dictates it worth.  It's a valid sales tactic and it's used all the time.  Hell, Zenimax is attempting to manipulate the perceived value with preorder and CE bonuses.  It will probably work.

     

    However, perceived value is still different than actual delivered value.  There's a reason that consumer protection organizations exist.  It's because consumers are considered susceptible to predatory practices that don't deliver adequate real value.  However, the existence of such organizations that specialize in consumer protection shows that there is little faith that the majority of consumers can protect themselves.  That's pretty much where perceived value fits.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAMember Posts: 2,198
    Originally posted by killion81  Perceived value is fantastic for marketing and a great way to dupe people into paying more for something than the market dictates it worth.  It's a valid sales tactic and it's used all the time.  Hell, Zenimax is attempting to manipulate the perceived value with preorder and CE bonuses.  It will probably work.  However, perceived value is still different than actual delivered value.  There's a reason that consumer protection organizations exist.  It's because consumers are considered susceptible to predatory practices that don't deliver adequate real value.  However, the existence of such organizations that specialize in consumer protection shows that there is little faith that the majority of consumers can protect themselves.  That's pretty much where perceived value fits.

    It's a video game, not a lawn mower, or a hammer, or something else with a practical function.  When it comes to entertainment products, the perceived value *is* the actual value.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

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