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[Editorial] Elder Scrolls Online: Thoughts on the Collector's Edition Controversy

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Comments

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Posts: 875Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by eric1000

    What complete BS.  By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury.  I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom.  I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing. 

    It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take.  Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions.  But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.

     

    It's nothing by itself in a vacuum.  It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,

     

    “And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor

     

    and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said.  If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading.  Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."

     

    Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release?  Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?

    So do you think they shouldn't have sold a CE at all that had any kind of digital goods in it?

    Most certainly.  I would have absolutely no problem with CE owners getting physical collectors items.  Digital goods only last as long as the game servers stay open so they are not collectors items at all are they.

  • gamerman98gamerman98 SKPosts: 804Member Uncommon

    Ya the lousy imperial race..i know, you dont need to sound all cool by correcting me. Still my point stands, NOT worth giving into the deception. And to be cool and "technical" imperials arent considered a "race" since humans already exist...they are a faction, read it up.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by eric1000

    What complete BS.  By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury.  I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom.  I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing. 

    It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take.  Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions.  But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.

     

    It's nothing by itself in a vacuum.  It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,

     

    “And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor

     

    and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said.  If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading.  Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."

     

    Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release?  Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?

    So do you think they shouldn't have sold a CE at all that had any kind of digital goods in it?

     

    I don't care what they do with a CE, outside of locking content behind a pay wall after saying they wouldn't.  Early access, great.  Items that are otherwise obtainable through in-game means, sure.  Content that you can ONLY get by paying extra cash for it after specifically saying, "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."  Yeah, that's lying, misleading and flat out shady. 

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

    It shouldn't even occur.

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

    It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

    Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

    This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

    It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$.  Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.

    The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money.  The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.

    That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.

     

     

    $20 is not getting nickel and dimed.  That's getting twentied.

     

    This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time.  Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them.  There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them.  It is literally a different look for a player's avatar.  It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.

     

    Though, there will be microtransactions at some point.  They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend.  They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen.  I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.

     

     

    +1

     

    I'm sorry, but if you think races are just "cosmetic" than you're most likely not a role player. I don't care what people say, putting races behind a time gated pay wall is greedy.

     

    You act as if it were just some cosmetic "outfit." It's not. It's a whole freaking race we are talking about, locked behind a time gated pay wall. That is completely different than just an "outfit."

    Smile

  • GrakulenGrakulen Staff Writer St. Charles, MOPosts: 460MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
     

    I didn't bring up WoW or Pandas.  I carried the conversation forward though.  I most certainly did not bring up sparkle ponies.  That was you, just now.  When the conversation is about sparkle ponies, it's your fault, not mine.  If someone posts a picture of a star filled pony, I will not accept the blame.

     

    **

     

    Just for the record, I don't know that listening to me is a good idea.  It's just that I know me, and I'm not all that comfortable listening to me.  Recommending other people listen to me seems like a shaky proposition at best.

     

    Challenge accepted.

     

    image

  • AdokasAdokas KristiansandPosts: 217Member
    Originally posted by gamerman98

    Ya the lousy imperial race..i know, you dont need to sound all cool by correcting me. Still my point stands, NOT worth giving into the deception. And to be cool and "technical" imperials arent considered a "race" since humans already exist...they are a faction, read it up.

    So hostile. You should get that checked.

    I was not attempted to be cool by correcting you. But there are so many people who believe different things with this game already. How am I supposed to know if you mean something else, when what you write is "class"?

    And how can they be considered a faction when they join one of the three available factions?

  • Balkin31Balkin31 Citrus Heights, CAPosts: 224Member Uncommon
    I actually think the Pr-order stuff is brilliant, people wanted some choice with this game now they have it, you are just gonna have to pay for it!!
  • joxxer22joxxer22 ROSEMEAD, CAPosts: 4Member
    I just recently bought a new car in last 3 weeks. These new cars come with a computer and moniter mounted center of the console. In that computer is a navagation program, it already on it just not activated unless you pay one of two prices. The dealer usually has this program active if you get a 5k package the car. I shopped several brand and noted that all of them was doing this. I said hell no to paying an extra 5k. So after I got the car I went in and asked to have it activated. To do this it would require the dealer to enter a 22 digit number twice and make a phone call to the software company. Guess what they wanted to do this. Six hundred dollars. I passed on that too. Guess Ill just find my way arround the world with out this feature. Now i wonder how many people here think that a car that cost 28k should automaticly come with this feature working already? Well if you are in that camp you would be out of luck. So pony up the dough and welcome to real life or do with out it.
  • FrigiddeathFrigiddeath Dallas, TXPosts: 8Member
    Originally posted by Adokas
    Originally posted by gamerman98

    To me paying for a collectors edition is one thing, but to use a class that should have already been in the game from the get go JUST to boost sales, is not only deceptive, but shows me that they sure dont take their fan base seriously. Its just all for the big bucks. Sure glad im not going to be wasting my money on this.

    You don't get any "class". You get a race. The racial passives in ESO are minor. Like WoW. So for the very most part, that race is a skin. A cosmetic. Just another human race.

     

    If you think Racial are a minor thing in WoW, you must have not played WoW in any serious way in over 6 years.  There is a reason almost every top 100 World Guild in PvE is Horde.  Their racial are a DPS boost over anything the alliance gets.

     

    The same reason why Human is very popular if you are seriously doing Arenas.  Every Man for Himself pretty much allows you to never have to care about having a PvP trinket on which can be switched up for another trinket that is just better compared to other races who have to use a PvP trinket.

     

    There is a reason why even Blizzard themselves have said that if they were making WoW today, they would scrap the whole racial system.

  • pmcubedpmcubed Portland, ORPosts: 289Member
    Originally posted by Adokas
    Originally posted by gamerman98

    To me paying for a collectors edition is one thing, but to use a class that should have already been in the game from the get go JUST to boost sales, is not only deceptive, but shows me that they sure dont take their fan base seriously. Its just all for the big bucks. Sure glad im not going to be wasting my money on this.

    You don't get any "class". You get a race. The racial passives in ESO are minor. Like WoW. So for the very most part, that race is a skin. A cosmetic. Just another human race.

     

    WoW racials are not "minor" lol.  There is a reason competitive Arena is pretty much all undead or human.

  • GravargGravarg Harker Heights, TXPosts: 3,332Member Uncommon
    I thought the days of me getting collector's editions was over.  Other than WoW, nobody ever puts anything I want into their CE.  The CE comes with both a map and the statue.  I love little statues like this.  Last one I got was Diablo 3's statue thing, It was kinda small and was expecting more, but it's still cool and sits on my desk :)  I'm thinking more and more that I will probably end up laying ESO more than Wildstar, but I'm still torn between them.  I like the more mature (and love that they got the M rating actually), and realistic side of ESO.  I also like the playful, fun, and comical side of Wildstar.  I guess maybe I found my WoW Killer, both of these games together XD
  • GrakulenGrakulen Staff Writer St. Charles, MOPosts: 460MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by eric1000
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by eric1000

    What complete BS.  By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury.  I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom.  I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing. 

    It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take.  Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions.  But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.

     

    It's nothing by itself in a vacuum.  It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,

     

    “And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor

     

    and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said.  If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading.  Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."

     

    Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release?  Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?

    So do you think they shouldn't have sold a CE at all that had any kind of digital goods in it?

    Most certainly.  I would have absolutely no problem with CE owners getting physical collectors items.  Digital goods only last as long as the game servers stay open so they are not collectors items at all are they.

    They have exclusivity and value to collectors. The length of their existence is moot. On a long enough time line we're all dust. But at least your argument is logical.

  • blazzen67blazzen67 Virginia Beach, VAPosts: 65Member
    if the imperials are going to be available in CE edition, you can basically bet they will be available at some point in the game..like when you finish the game with one character and bring that character to lvl 50. its a non issue for me,  and when are people going to get an education on what it takes to make and maintain an MMO  24/7, month after month, year after year? and learn what is involved with running a business? i swear some people have gotten so spoiled and had the wool pulled over there eyes on the F2P model that they have come to believe that it must be free to the developers to not only make a game but then free to maintain that game year after year. to the point that they want the game handed to them on a silver platter for free..its turned people into greedy freeloaders that want the entire cake and want to eat it to.. bottom line is ANY MMO needs money coming in from somewhere on a monthly basis in order to keep these MMO's online and to keep new content for the game coming on a regular basis...period, its unavoidable.  and for me, i would MUCH rather pay one fee a month and have the ENTIRE game available to me and not have to worry about money for in game items, than get nickel and dimed to death with micro-transaction and pay gates that force players to spend more a month in order to have access to everthing a game has to offer. i really want the free to play model to die, because its the kiss of death for the MMO.  anyone who doesnt like the sub fee or doesnt agree with it, there is a very easy solution, either stop playing MMO's, because its not for you or don't buy games  that have a sub fee, move on, and stop whining about it. because it isnt going away..thank god.   i can tell you this, IF this game ever goes free to play, i will stop playing it because it will be the kiss of death for this game, just like all the rest.
  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by Razeekster
     

    I'm sorry, but if you think races are just "cosmetic" than you're most likely not a role player. I don't care what people say, putting races behind a time gated pay wall is greedy. 

    You act as if it were just some cosmetic "outfit." It's not. It's a whole freaking race we are talking about, locked behind a time gated pay wall. That is completely different than just an "outfit."

    In practical terms, it doesn't appear to even rise to the level of cosmetic.  Everything they have shown indicates that all the human races look essentially the same, with the only difference being that Redguards can have a darker skin tone than Nords or Bretons.  If that really is the case, it means the Imperial won't actually be cosmetically different.  It will just be a Breton/Nord/Redguard with the word Imperial on the character sheet instead.

    Essentially, the only thing people are getting from the "Imperial Race" that others don't have is an exclusive set of racial passives.  People already get the appearance through the other human races, and as for "RP," when has what your character sheet says your race is ever stopped roleplayers from deciding they are some different race?

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by blazzen67
    if the imperials are going to be available in CE edition, you can basically bet they will be available at some point in the game..like when you finish the game with one character and bring that character to lvl 50. its a non issue for me,  and when are people going to get an education on what it takes to make and maintain an MMO  24/7, month after month, year after year? and learn what is involved with running a business? i swear some people have gotten so spoiled and had the wool pulled over there eyes on the F2P model that they have come to believe that it must be free to the developers to not only make a game but then free to maintain that game year after year. to the point that they want the game handed to them on a silver platter for free..its turned people into greedy freeloaders that want the entire cake and want to eat it to.. bottom line is ANY MMO needs money coming in from somewhere on a monthly basis in order to keep these MMO's online and to keep new content for the game coming on a regular basis...period, its unavoidable.  and for me, i would MUCH rather pay one fee a month and have the ENTIRE game available to me and not have to worry about money for in game items, than get nickel and dimed to death with micro-transaction and pay gates that force players to spend more a month in order to have access to everthing a game has to offer. i really want the free to play model to die, because its the kiss of death for the MMO.  anyone who doesnt like the sub fee or doesnt agree with it, there is a very easy solution, either stop playing MMO's, because its not for you or don't buy games  that have a sub fee, move on, and stop whining about it. because it isnt going away..thank god.   i can tell you this, IF this game ever goes free to play, i will stop playing it because it will be the kiss of death for this game, just like all the rest.

     

    I think you may have missed what is being discussed.  I recommend at least skimming through the majority of the thread.  People are definitely not complaining about the subscription fee.

  • zaylinzaylin Olympia, WAPosts: 789Member

    Did anyone read the faq on the TESO page. you ONLY have to pre order to get the ability to play any race on any alliance.

    What is the Explorer’s Pack?

    [ If players pre-purchase the game through The Elder Scrolls Online Store (https://store.elderscrollsonline.com) or pre-order at any participating retailer, they'll receive the Explorer's Pack, a digital bundle that includes: ] — The ability for the player's characters to join any alliance, no matter which race you choose — The Scuttler , a tiny but loyal vanity pet — Four bonus treasure maps that will lead the player to loot ** When players pre-purchase through The Elder Scrolls Online Store, the Explorer's Pack will automatically be added to their account. If they pre-order the game through a participating retailer, closer to launch they'll be provided with a code they can redeem after registering an account at https://account.elderscrollsonline.com. Players can contact their preferred retailer for more details.

    the rest of the digital fluff is just bonus stuff. if peeps wanna pay extra $$ for a mount , a race, let them. like some have said other games have given bonus races and other such stuff for CE's . I honestly thought you had to buy the CE to be able to play on any side, now that i know you only have to pre order, guess imma head to Gamestop :)

     

    Game looks fun, my friends are going to be playing (most important part) all this hoopla is soo silly

  • roger82roger82 BrisbanePosts: 19Member

    If anything I am more upset that once again, we are getting price gouged in Australia, not just for the physical copies, but for digital versions as well.

    For reference, digital standard edition for us is $80 and digital deluxe is $119.

    Physical deluxe edition is also going to be $140.

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon

    What would be interesting to see (If at all possible) would be where the averages lie after the 1st 2 weeks - 1st 30 days, in terms of how well the players are doing in the game. How far they have progressed, how much wealth they have amassed, What they have accumulated. Etc etc. I'd love to see the difference between the players who bought the extras vs. those who didn't. That would be a good indication of whether the terms P2W or P2P apply.

  • keithiankeithian Los Angeles, CAPosts: 3,042Member Uncommon
    This was one of the most well written articles I've seen on this site. It covered a wide range of points and it was very easy to understand...not to mention it was just logical. +1000 to the author. If people would just try to calm down and actually read what he wrote carefully, you would see that this really is a lot of drama about nothing. If you compare this CE with just about every CE before, especially SWTOR, you will realize this is a great value and not hurting anyone. It's a vanity race. Geez, get over it. It doesn't come with any different content or story. As he stated, you can upgrade to the CE edition after release if you want it so bad. We want Zenimax to be profitable if we want a quality game that doesn't feel as if you have to buy content in piecemeal. 

    There Is Always Hope!

  • GrakulenGrakulen Staff Writer St. Charles, MOPosts: 460MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by roger82

    If anything I am more upset that once again, we are getting price gouged in Australia, not just for the physical copies, but for digital versions as well.

    For reference, digital standard edition for us is $80 and digital deluxe is $119.

    Physical deluxe edition is also going to be $140.

    I don't know why that is but is there a chance it has to do with import tariffs that Australia might place on the goods? If that's the case those are going to get passed on to the consumer.

     

  • AdokasAdokas KristiansandPosts: 217Member
    Originally posted by pmcubed

    Originally posted by Adokas
    Originally posted by gamerman98
    To me paying for a collectors edition is one thing, but to use a class that should have already been in the game from the get go JUST to boost sales, is not only deceptive, but shows me that they sure dont take their fan base seriously. Its just all for the big bucks. Sure glad im not going to be wasting my money on this.

    You don't get any "class". You get a race. The racial passives in ESO are minor. Like WoW. So for the very most part, that race is a skin. A cosmetic. Just another human race.

     

    WoW racials are not "minor" lol.  There is a reason competitive Arena is pretty much all undead or human.

     

    All right, fair. Minor like some of the racials then, or how some of them used to be! :-)
  • SonOfValmarSonOfValmar Selma, ALPosts: 49Member

    It is very interesting to see this controversy develop here on mmorpg.com. I am unsure if this is becoming (or ever will become) a widespread pr nightmare; however, i believe there are some key points to be discussed here.

     

    1) Imperials were originally thought to be kept out of the game because they did not fit into the 3 Faction model this game is designed around. Becoming available seemingly out of nowhere is a bit of a shocker and of course they are behind an additional payment. I wonder how long this race was in development, and if their implementation was simply an attempt to extract cash from players/fans wanting to play such a race or did their creation stem from the developers' own desires?

     

    2) While the Imperial Race has received the most discussion, I do not believe it to be the most significant point. I am surprised more people are not centering their focus around being able to play any race on any faction. It is amusing to see a single pre-order bonus blatantly undermine a game's design so easily. One cannot deny that ESO was designed, at its core, with the 3 Locked Faction philosophy in mind, and as such many of the systems built in the game revolved around this concept. Such a pre-order bonus ruins the weight of that design and renders the purpose of many features in the game pointless.

     

    3) With the pre-order bonus of being able to play any race on any faction in mind, one must ponder what was the purpose of designing the game with faction limitations in mind? Why design ESO in the way that they have if they were willing to implement such a bonus? For me, this is a red flag as it shows the developers either have little control over their product so any design in this game could be undermined if additional monies is involved, or that they have little faith in their original vision for the game.

     

    I will enjoy reading the conversation this pre-order controversy stirs up. From my perspective, the pre-order bonus of being able to play any face on any faction is a dangerous way to undermine your core design philosophies for a few more funds.

  • strellokstrellok ASdff, ALPosts: 48Member
    Didn't we all agree here that we will support p2p model? So we don't have to deal with cash shop or extra content for more cash? Box price is insane, it is the most expensive game in my country, with sub, with collector's edition cost even more you have to buy to have full content. You just can smell cash shop coming from this move. If people are willing to preorder game like this, there is no hope for future of MMOs.
  • DihoruDihoru ConstantaPosts: 2,731Member
    I wonder how long it takes for people to realize the obvious pre-order bait.

    image
  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,596Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dihoru
    I wonder how long it takes for people to realize the obvious pre-order bait.

    Probably right after the post-release switch

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