So because it's a $20 charge it's okay? That must make the $200 preorder pack for Neverwinter 10x as okay, right? You're both ignoring the part where he said that whole mtx/dlc thing wasn't going to be a part of this game because they were choosing the subscription model instead. He made the point of differentiating from cash shops and mtx, not me. You keep talking about WoW and pandas and sparkle ponies, but this isn't WoW. We're talking about how he said and alluded to one thing and then how he did something different. I'm saying that is wrong and that we should not give developers or publishers a pass to do this. We should expect them to speak clearly and transparently. What they've gotten away with in the past doesn't mean it should continue.
I'm also pointing out a double-standard here on mmorpg.com how F2P games that go into soft release are heavily grilled and questioned early about their monetization methods and costs while games requiring a sub (a higher minimum investment) are given excuse articles as to why their charges are okay.
This has nothing to do with the quality of the game, although I think it's a poor practice to accept money while keeping a legal NDA up, much worse than F2P games using the beta label and taking money. At least with those games you can see what you get before you buy. How convenient is it that they're taking money for the game, but "oops" the game can't be reviewed because of the NDA. Oh well, c'est la vie?
I think there are a multitude of disagreements going on that are getting mixed up. I'll try and go through your post point by point so we can get on the same page.
I think the price is irrelevant. If they wanted to charge $200 for it I'd say they are crazy but they have the right to do so. I wouldn't buy it. I thought Neverwinter charging $200 for a digital only CE was mind boggling but they did it and people bought it.
He said they would have fun things in the shop. This by a lot of definitions is a fun thing not essential to the core game play. People can disagree on that. I think if they did offer things like a unique dungeon or adventure pack or pick what ever arbitrary name you want and they stuck that in a cash shop then yeah, that's pretty lame and obviously going back on what he said.
I mentioned WoW in the article because they charge for pets and mounts in a shop and have for year. Those are fun things they micro transact. I never mentioned Pandarian's in the article because I don't think it is a fair comparison. I only responded to someone else's claims that it was.
You are correct. Consumer's should expect honesty from their service providers. If you are pissed at ESO because you think Matt lied to you then I can't tell you not to be pissed about that.
The micro transaction based games get grilled when they go into open "beta" and charge you money for an unfinished product. Before yesterday ZSO wasn't taking money from people. Those games also weren't protected by an NDA. ESO is. I've been honest with people and told them I was less than impressed about ESO at shows. I've slowly come around. I'll tell you more soon. I'll call a spade a spade and tell you if the game is a POS as soon as I can. I also cautioned people not to run out and buy the game if if they are unsure about it. I don't want you to spend your money on anything you don't want to spend it on. I have no vested interest in the games success other than hopefully getting some enjoyment out of it.
I also talked about the fact the NDA still being up in my mind was cause for concern as a consumer. If I want to buy something and you won't let people talk about it yet then their seems to be a disconnect. But the NDA will be down in plenty of time for people to prepurchase the game based upon and informed decision if that is what they choose to do.
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
Do you want an imperial? If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad.
That's stupid. It's like saying "Do you have cancer? If you want to be free of it then you must pay. If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want to be free of it"
Just for the record. We are talking about video games. Not cancer.
PS. Listen to LizardBones. He gets it.
its called an analogy for gods sake. we arent saying video games are more important than the cure for cancer or ending "apartheid." However, video games are fairly impornant to many people that play them on a regular basis so naturally they are going to speak out about things that upset them in a major aspect of their time.
Originally posted by Badaboom I wonder how people would react if WoW was released and no one could play the Tauren unless they bought a CE?
If it was actually the Tauren, with a starting area, quests and home city, people would probably react pretty badly.
If it was just a skin over an avatar that could play for either faction with no starting area, quests or home city, then who knows? People seem to get upset over anything. The game would have still sold a bajillion copies.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
They will unlock all factions in time for everyone I bet on it. I do prefer the faction lock though with the imperials being the floater race as cyrodil is being fought over. People go on about how in elder scrolls games there was no faction lock blah blah, how many times did you ever see a orc working as a guard in a Nord city etc, yea there are roamers in each races area but a minority.
Hopefully they just trying to limit the crossover with the CE pack so like only 10% of characters on a certain alliance are foreign.
Biggest issue for me is the PvP nstances in cyrodil really.
What complete BS. By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury. I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom. I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing.
It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take. Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions. But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
What complete BS. By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury. I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom. I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing.
It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take. Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions. But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.
It's nothing by itself in a vacuum. It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,
“And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor
and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said. If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading. Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."
Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release? Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?
It's nothing by itself in a vacuum. It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,
“And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor
and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said. If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading. Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."
Here is the thing about lies, or even deception generally; it's only dishonest if he didn't mean it at the time that he said it. It's not dishonest if he changed his mind later. It's not dishonest if somebody with more authority overruled him. It's only dishonest if, at the time he made the statement, he didn't mean it. And I'm fairly certain nobody here can prove that is the case, even if it is.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion. Through passion, I gain strength. Through strength, I gain power. Through power, I gain victory. Through victory, my chains are broken. The Force shall free me.
It's nothing by itself in a vacuum. It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,
“And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor
and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said. If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading. Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."
Here is the thing about lies, or even deception generally; it's only dishonest if he didn't mean it at the time that he said it. It's not dishonest if he changed his mind later. It's not dishonest if somebody with more authority overruled him. It's only dishonest if, at the time he made the statement, he didn't mean it. And I'm fairly certain nobody here can prove that is the case, even if it is.
I suppose you could use this to set a precedent on future communications from Zenimax. Essentially, it doesn't matter what they say, because in the future they may change their opinion and do the total opposite of what they said. However, you shouldn't be concerned about this because it's not lying or dishonest. They really meant what they said at the moment they said it. They just changed their opinion later... no big deal, right?
What complete BS. By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury. I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom. I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing.
It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take. Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions. But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.
Firstly I don't really care about the Imperial race being CE only as it is only cosmetic. What I find immoral is being given information on the game by people in the know ( zenimax ) such as the reason for the faction lock and then finding out that actually the reasons given were a complete fabrication because they don't apply if you pre-order. This completely changes the nature of the game and is certainly not just cosmetic.
I am loving all the whinning about the imperial ce. What I would do, cause I am a real capitalist is limit this race to only preorders. And I would promise that this is the only way you could play this race. Oh and I think I would ask for more money for it too. If every one has an opinion about it that means it has value and value costs more. They should raise the price of the ce by atleast ten bucks. If they follow the release up with great expansions this game will have a long shelf life. And if they was to promise never to let anyone else have an imperial account once the game launches, when I quit the game I could even sell it and make lots of my money back. Like in the old days with my EQ account. Can you say CAPITALIST?
I think both side of this argument are both playing the part of fanboys. People who are totally ok with paying the extra $20 for a race were probably going to buy a CE before they were even announced. They see getting an extra race to themselves are a great perk for something they were already going to do.
People on the otther side did not like ESO to begin with and this just gives another reason to hate on the game. However, there as also people who have been on the fence about this game. This CE and preorder bonuses give a hint on how developers of the game see the game progressing financially to me.
I was one of the fence sitter on this game, but this CE convinces me not to buy the game. Not so much because of the obvious cash grab that the CE is, but because it screams to me that Zenimax knows this game is going to go B2P or F2P within a year or two. They are already conditioning their player base to be ok with spending extra money on actual content.
If you don't believe having an exclusive race is not content, I don't honestly know what to say to you. Each race has passive traits, they are going to effect gameplay. In PvP, this could make a huge difference, if Imperial racial traits are strong. The game is basically a remake of DAoC, so PvP will be important. If you want to be competitive in PvP and Imperials have some of the best traits for PvP, you are going to have to shell out the extra $20 to buy them. The same goes for whatever level of PvE content is available.
This is not the same as vanity shop items in WoW, Rift, or any other game. I have bought plenty of vanity items in WoW, my Lil Rag is not going to help me one bit in game outside of being cool and saying old Ragnaros quotes. One of the Imperial racial traits could make me stronger in the game. Not all micro transactions are created equal.
Now, some people will probably argue that things like competitiveness in PvP or PvE are not important, and all of that "anti-Elitist" sentiment that is normal with a lot of players. However, for people who do take MMO a little more serious, it is a major deal. You are paying $15 a month for this, and now if you want to play every race, you need to pay another $20. Want easier access to a mount, pay us $20 for the CE. If you don't think that sooner or later it will get to "if you want to have this special dungeon or PvP map, in a similar vein to what COD does with maps, you are nuts. Right now Zenimax is clearly double dipping and will one day switch to a B2P or F2P model. They are showing all of the sign. If you are cool with that, fine. But don't pretend like this is something totally normal in sub based MMOs. It's not, and everyone who plays MMO for any amount of time knows it.
At the end, people are going to buy or not buy this game. However, I do worry that this will lead other developers to think it is ok to lock actual content away at launch behind a BS CE pay wall, because players who really want to play the game don't care and will drop the cash regardless. In fact, their player base will make reason why this is totally normal and not different than any other game when it clearly is. When the next major franchise comes up with an MMO and locks away a special area for buying the CE, people will be like "what the big deal? Other MMOs make you pay extra for races." Of Course, these same players will then later complain about DLC updates and other small features as cash grab in other games they don't care about, but that is what the internet is about.
What complete BS. By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury. I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom. I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing.
It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take. Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions. But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.
It's nothing by itself in a vacuum. It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,
“And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor
and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said. If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading. Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."
Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release? Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?
So do you think they shouldn't have sold a CE at all that had any kind of digital goods in it?
To me paying for a collectors edition is one thing, but to use a class that should have already been in the game from the get go JUST to boost sales, is not only deceptive, but shows me that they sure dont take their fan base seriously. Its just all for the big bucks. Sure glad im not going to be wasting my money on this.
I don't like the imperials but an Elder Scrolls game with races that actually have different racial skills AND exclusive looking armour (Since people keep forgetting to mention this) require an extra to unlock in a game that DIDN'T EVEN LAUNCH is absurd.
I and probably anyone here complaining could afford that, doesn't justify having it as an extra.... it's bullshit period.
And for those people saying it's just a skin (Which is not) how can you know that they won't add some story for the imperials? I'm pretty sure at this point that could and probably will happen. (Hint hint with extra monies?)
To me paying for a collectors edition is one thing, but to use a class that should have already been in the game from the get go JUST to boost sales, is not only deceptive, but shows me that they sure dont take their fan base seriously. Its just all for the big bucks. Sure glad im not going to be wasting my money on this.
You don't get any "class". You get a race. The racial passives in ESO are minor. Like WoW. So for the very most part, that race is a skin. A cosmetic. Just another human race.
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.
Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.
This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.
It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$. Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.
The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money. The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.
That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.
$20 is not getting nickel and dimed. That's getting twentied.
This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time. Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them. There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them. It is literally a different look for a player's avatar. It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.
Though, there will be microtransactions at some point. They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend. They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen. I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.
+1
So because it's a $20 charge it's okay? That must make the $200 preorder pack for Neverwinter 10x as okay, right? You're both ignoring the part where he said that whole mtx/dlc thing wasn't going to be a part of this game because they were choosing the subscription model instead. He made the point of differentiating from cash shops and mtx, not me. You keep talking about WoW and pandas and sparkle ponies, but this isn't WoW. We're talking about how he said and alluded to one thing and then how he did something different. I'm saying that is wrong and that we should not give developers or publishers a pass to do this. We should expect them to speak clearly and transparently. What they've gotten away with in the past doesn't mean it should continue.
I'm also pointing out a double-standard here on mmorpg.com how F2P games that go into soft release are heavily grilled and questioned early about their monetization methods and costs while games requiring a sub (a higher minimum investment) are given excuse articles as to why their charges are okay.
This has nothing to do with the quality of the game, although I think it's a poor practice to accept money while keeping a legal NDA up, much worse than F2P games using the beta label and taking money. At least with those games you can see what you get before you buy. How convenient is it that they're taking money for the game, but "oops" the game can't be reviewed because of the NDA. Oh well, c'est la vie?
You are misinterpreting what he said. His statements could be summed up as, "We are going with a Subscription Monetization Model, not a F2P Monetization Model". Subscription monetization includes cash shop extras. In this particular case it includes a generic avatar with a specific appearance. I would consider it more than buying a sparkle pony, but it's not buying a race. Buying a race would include a starting area unique to that race or at least that race's faction, along with starter quests and the like. The price isn't all that relevant except as the basis on which people should make their decision to purchase or not. If it's too much, don't purchase. If it's a good deal, make the purchase.
It would be nice if publishers spoke clearly and transparently, but that's just not going to happen. They are going to express things from their point of view. If their point of view happens to differ from someone listening to them, confusion is going to follow and there's nothing they can do about that. One thing that they can do is reveal what they're doing before they collect the money, which they did. That's about as good as it will get.
I'm torn on the whole NDA thing. Lifting NDAs in the past didn't seem to stop anyone from buying the game and getting disappointed if the posts on these forums are any indication. At the same time, I think people should be able to make informed purchases. Parallel to this is the fact that people won't make informed purchased about luxury items, and TESO is most certainly a luxury item and people are going to buy it whether the NDA is lifted or not. Obviously. The practical difference between the NDA being in place or being lifted seems to be nil, compared to other MMORPG preorders. I think the NDA should be lifted prior to people purchasing the game, but I don't think it would make any difference.
I didn't bring up WoW or Pandas. I carried the conversation forward though. I most certainly did not bring up sparkle ponies. That was you, just now. When the conversation is about sparkle ponies, it's your fault, not mine. If someone posts a picture of a star filled pony, I will not accept the blame.
**
Just for the record, I don't know that listening to me is a good idea. It's just that I know me, and I'm not all that comfortable listening to me. Recommending other people listen to me seems like a shaky proposition at best.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
What complete BS. By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury. I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom. I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing.
It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take. Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions. But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.
It's nothing by itself in a vacuum. It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,
“And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor
and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said. If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading. Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."
Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release? Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?
So do you think they shouldn't have sold a CE at all that had any kind of digital goods in it?
Most certainly. I would have absolutely no problem with CE owners getting physical collectors items. Digital goods only last as long as the game servers stay open so they are not collectors items at all are they.
Ya the lousy imperial race..i know, you dont need to sound all cool by correcting me. Still my point stands, NOT worth giving into the deception. And to be cool and "technical" imperials arent considered a "race" since humans already exist...they are a faction, read it up.
What complete BS. By your reckoning no fraudsters would ever be behind bars because they didn't cause anyone or their property any physical injury. I will actually buy the game because I like what I saw in the beta but I know when I am being treated like a mushroom. I will not therefor buy the CE because I will not help propagate this type of immoral marketing.
It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take. Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions. But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.
It's nothing by itself in a vacuum. It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,
“And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor
and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said. If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading. Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."
Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release? Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?
So do you think they shouldn't have sold a CE at all that had any kind of digital goods in it?
I don't care what they do with a CE, outside of locking content behind a pay wall after saying they wouldn't. Early access, great. Items that are otherwise obtainable through in-game means, sure. Content that you can ONLY get by paying extra cash for it after specifically saying, "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all." Yeah, that's lying, misleading and flat out shady.
"Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."
It shouldn't even occur.
That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).
Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).
It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.
Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.
This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.
It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$. Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.
The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money. The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.
That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.
$20 is not getting nickel and dimed. That's getting twentied.
This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time. Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them. There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them. It is literally a different look for a player's avatar. It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.
Though, there will be microtransactions at some point. They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend. They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen. I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.
+1
I'm sorry, but if you think races are just "cosmetic" than you're most likely not a role player. I don't care what people say, putting races behind a time gated pay wall is greedy.
You act as if it were just some cosmetic "outfit." It's not. It's a whole freaking race we are talking about, locked behind a time gated pay wall. That is completely different than just an "outfit."
I didn't bring up WoW or Pandas. I carried the conversation forward though. I most certainly did not bring up sparkle ponies. That was you, just now. When the conversation is about sparkle ponies, it's your fault, not mine. If someone posts a picture of a star filled pony, I will not accept the blame.
**
Just for the record, I don't know that listening to me is a good idea. It's just that I know me, and I'm not all that comfortable listening to me. Recommending other people listen to me seems like a shaky proposition at best.
Ya the lousy imperial race..i know, you dont need to sound all cool by correcting me. Still my point stands, NOT worth giving into the deception. And to be cool and "technical" imperials arent considered a "race" since humans already exist...they are a faction, read it up.
So hostile. You should get that checked.
I was not attempted to be cool by correcting you. But there are so many people who believe different things with this game already. How am I supposed to know if you mean something else, when what you write is "class"?
And how can they be considered a faction when they join one of the three available factions?
I just recently bought a new car in last 3 weeks. These new cars come with a computer and moniter mounted center of the console. In that computer is a navagation program, it already on it just not activated unless you pay one of two prices. The dealer usually has this program active if you get a 5k package the car. I shopped several brand and noted that all of them was doing this. I said hell no to paying an extra 5k. So after I got the car I went in and asked to have it activated. To do this it would require the dealer to enter a 22 digit number twice and make a phone call to the software company. Guess what they wanted to do this. Six hundred dollars. I passed on that too. Guess Ill just find my way arround the world with out this feature. Now i wonder how many people here think that a car that cost 28k should automaticly come with this feature working already? Well if you are in that camp you would be out of luck. So pony up the dough and welcome to real life or do with out it.
Comments
I think there are a multitude of disagreements going on that are getting mixed up. I'll try and go through your post point by point so we can get on the same page.
I think the price is irrelevant. If they wanted to charge $200 for it I'd say they are crazy but they have the right to do so. I wouldn't buy it. I thought Neverwinter charging $200 for a digital only CE was mind boggling but they did it and people bought it.
He said they would have fun things in the shop. This by a lot of definitions is a fun thing not essential to the core game play. People can disagree on that. I think if they did offer things like a unique dungeon or adventure pack or pick what ever arbitrary name you want and they stuck that in a cash shop then yeah, that's pretty lame and obviously going back on what he said.
I mentioned WoW in the article because they charge for pets and mounts in a shop and have for year. Those are fun things they micro transact. I never mentioned Pandarian's in the article because I don't think it is a fair comparison. I only responded to someone else's claims that it was.
You are correct. Consumer's should expect honesty from their service providers. If you are pissed at ESO because you think Matt lied to you then I can't tell you not to be pissed about that.
The micro transaction based games get grilled when they go into open "beta" and charge you money for an unfinished product. Before yesterday ZSO wasn't taking money from people. Those games also weren't protected by an NDA. ESO is. I've been honest with people and told them I was less than impressed about ESO at shows. I've slowly come around. I'll tell you more soon. I'll call a spade a spade and tell you if the game is a POS as soon as I can. I also cautioned people not to run out and buy the game if if they are unsure about it. I don't want you to spend your money on anything you don't want to spend it on. I have no vested interest in the games success other than hopefully getting some enjoyment out of it.
I also talked about the fact the NDA still being up in my mind was cause for concern as a consumer. If I want to buy something and you won't let people talk about it yet then their seems to be a disconnect. But the NDA will be down in plenty of time for people to prepurchase the game based upon and informed decision if that is what they choose to do.
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its called an analogy for gods sake. we arent saying video games are more important than the cure for cancer or ending "apartheid." However, video games are fairly impornant to many people that play them on a regular basis so naturally they are going to speak out about things that upset them in a major aspect of their time.
MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2
Playing:None
Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN
If it was actually the Tauren, with a starting area, quests and home city, people would probably react pretty badly.
If it was just a skin over an avatar that could play for either faction with no starting area, quests or home city, then who knows? People seem to get upset over anything. The game would have still sold a bajillion copies.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
They will unlock all factions in time for everyone I bet on it. I do prefer the faction lock though with the imperials being the floater race as cyrodil is being fought over. People go on about how in elder scrolls games there was no faction lock blah blah, how many times did you ever see a orc working as a guard in a Nord city etc, yea there are roamers in each races area but a minority.
Hopefully they just trying to limit the crossover with the CE pack so like only 10% of characters on a certain alliance are foreign.
Biggest issue for me is the PvP nstances in cyrodil really.
It's fine if you don't think the Imperial Edition provides enough value to justify the cost, that is a fair position to take. Saying you don't like it is reasonable, everybody has different opinions. But calling it immoral is just stupid, and will hurt your credibility with any person who is looking at the situation rationally rather than emotionally.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
Agree with article.
Really not something to fuzz about. Dont pay for ce and check out upgrade option later if a race is still locked..
-Semper ubi sub ubi!
always wear underwear
It's nothing by itself in a vacuum. It becomes shady and a flat out lie when you say something like,
“And it’s important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models – but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being “monetized” in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word “monetized” exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don’t want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for – with our system, they get it all.” - Matt Firor
and then your actions are completely opposite to what you have said. If you want to say it's not a lie and just twisting words, go that route, but it's still shady and misleading. Personally, I hold people to what they say and the part that particularly stands out as a lie is "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all."
Do you "get it all" if you don't preorder, but rather purchase the game after release? Do you "get it all" if you choose not to purchase the CE?
Here is the thing about lies, or even deception generally; it's only dishonest if he didn't mean it at the time that he said it. It's not dishonest if he changed his mind later. It's not dishonest if somebody with more authority overruled him. It's only dishonest if, at the time he made the statement, he didn't mean it. And I'm fairly certain nobody here can prove that is the case, even if it is.
Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
Through passion, I gain strength.
Through strength, I gain power.
Through power, I gain victory.
Through victory, my chains are broken.
The Force shall free me.
I suppose you could use this to set a precedent on future communications from Zenimax. Essentially, it doesn't matter what they say, because in the future they may change their opinion and do the total opposite of what they said. However, you shouldn't be concerned about this because it's not lying or dishonest. They really meant what they said at the moment they said it. They just changed their opinion later... no big deal, right?
Firstly I don't really care about the Imperial race being CE only as it is only cosmetic. What I find immoral is being given information on the game by people in the know ( zenimax ) such as the reason for the faction lock and then finding out that actually the reasons given were a complete fabrication because they don't apply if you pre-order. This completely changes the nature of the game and is certainly not just cosmetic.
I think both side of this argument are both playing the part of fanboys. People who are totally ok with paying the extra $20 for a race were probably going to buy a CE before they were even announced. They see getting an extra race to themselves are a great perk for something they were already going to do.
People on the otther side did not like ESO to begin with and this just gives another reason to hate on the game. However, there as also people who have been on the fence about this game. This CE and preorder bonuses give a hint on how developers of the game see the game progressing financially to me.
I was one of the fence sitter on this game, but this CE convinces me not to buy the game. Not so much because of the obvious cash grab that the CE is, but because it screams to me that Zenimax knows this game is going to go B2P or F2P within a year or two. They are already conditioning their player base to be ok with spending extra money on actual content.
If you don't believe having an exclusive race is not content, I don't honestly know what to say to you. Each race has passive traits, they are going to effect gameplay. In PvP, this could make a huge difference, if Imperial racial traits are strong. The game is basically a remake of DAoC, so PvP will be important. If you want to be competitive in PvP and Imperials have some of the best traits for PvP, you are going to have to shell out the extra $20 to buy them. The same goes for whatever level of PvE content is available.
This is not the same as vanity shop items in WoW, Rift, or any other game. I have bought plenty of vanity items in WoW, my Lil Rag is not going to help me one bit in game outside of being cool and saying old Ragnaros quotes. One of the Imperial racial traits could make me stronger in the game. Not all micro transactions are created equal.
Now, some people will probably argue that things like competitiveness in PvP or PvE are not important, and all of that "anti-Elitist" sentiment that is normal with a lot of players. However, for people who do take MMO a little more serious, it is a major deal. You are paying $15 a month for this, and now if you want to play every race, you need to pay another $20. Want easier access to a mount, pay us $20 for the CE. If you don't think that sooner or later it will get to "if you want to have this special dungeon or PvP map, in a similar vein to what COD does with maps, you are nuts. Right now Zenimax is clearly double dipping and will one day switch to a B2P or F2P model. They are showing all of the sign. If you are cool with that, fine. But don't pretend like this is something totally normal in sub based MMOs. It's not, and everyone who plays MMO for any amount of time knows it.
At the end, people are going to buy or not buy this game. However, I do worry that this will lead other developers to think it is ok to lock actual content away at launch behind a BS CE pay wall, because players who really want to play the game don't care and will drop the cash regardless. In fact, their player base will make reason why this is totally normal and not different than any other game when it clearly is. When the next major franchise comes up with an MMO and locks away a special area for buying the CE, people will be like "what the big deal? Other MMOs make you pay extra for races." Of Course, these same players will then later complain about DLC updates and other small features as cash grab in other games they don't care about, but that is what the internet is about.
So do you think they shouldn't have sold a CE at all that had any kind of digital goods in it?
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To me paying for a collectors edition is one thing, but to use a class that should have already been in the game from the get go JUST to boost sales, is not only deceptive, but shows me that they sure dont take their fan base seriously. Its just all for the big bucks. Sure glad im not going to be wasting my money on this.
This is sad news for me.
I don't like the imperials but an Elder Scrolls game with races that actually have different racial skills AND exclusive looking armour (Since people keep forgetting to mention this) require an extra to unlock in a game that DIDN'T EVEN LAUNCH is absurd.
I and probably anyone here complaining could afford that, doesn't justify having it as an extra.... it's bullshit period.
And for those people saying it's just a skin (Which is not) how can you know that they won't add some story for the imperials? I'm pretty sure at this point that could and probably will happen. (Hint hint with extra monies?)
You don't get any "class". You get a race. The racial passives in ESO are minor. Like WoW. So for the very most part, that race is a skin. A cosmetic. Just another human race.
You are misinterpreting what he said. His statements could be summed up as, "We are going with a Subscription Monetization Model, not a F2P Monetization Model". Subscription monetization includes cash shop extras. In this particular case it includes a generic avatar with a specific appearance. I would consider it more than buying a sparkle pony, but it's not buying a race. Buying a race would include a starting area unique to that race or at least that race's faction, along with starter quests and the like. The price isn't all that relevant except as the basis on which people should make their decision to purchase or not. If it's too much, don't purchase. If it's a good deal, make the purchase.
It would be nice if publishers spoke clearly and transparently, but that's just not going to happen. They are going to express things from their point of view. If their point of view happens to differ from someone listening to them, confusion is going to follow and there's nothing they can do about that. One thing that they can do is reveal what they're doing before they collect the money, which they did. That's about as good as it will get.
I'm torn on the whole NDA thing. Lifting NDAs in the past didn't seem to stop anyone from buying the game and getting disappointed if the posts on these forums are any indication. At the same time, I think people should be able to make informed purchases. Parallel to this is the fact that people won't make informed purchased about luxury items, and TESO is most certainly a luxury item and people are going to buy it whether the NDA is lifted or not. Obviously. The practical difference between the NDA being in place or being lifted seems to be nil, compared to other MMORPG preorders. I think the NDA should be lifted prior to people purchasing the game, but I don't think it would make any difference.
I didn't bring up WoW or Pandas. I carried the conversation forward though. I most certainly did not bring up sparkle ponies. That was you, just now. When the conversation is about sparkle ponies, it's your fault, not mine. If someone posts a picture of a star filled pony, I will not accept the blame.
**
Just for the record, I don't know that listening to me is a good idea. It's just that I know me, and I'm not all that comfortable listening to me. Recommending other people listen to me seems like a shaky proposition at best.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Most certainly. I would have absolutely no problem with CE owners getting physical collectors items. Digital goods only last as long as the game servers stay open so they are not collectors items at all are they.
Ya the lousy imperial race..i know, you dont need to sound all cool by correcting me. Still my point stands, NOT worth giving into the deception. And to be cool and "technical" imperials arent considered a "race" since humans already exist...they are a faction, read it up.
I don't care what they do with a CE, outside of locking content behind a pay wall after saying they wouldn't. Early access, great. Items that are otherwise obtainable through in-game means, sure. Content that you can ONLY get by paying extra cash for it after specifically saying, "We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for -- with our system, they get it all." Yeah, that's lying, misleading and flat out shady.
I'm sorry, but if you think races are just "cosmetic" than you're most likely not a role player. I don't care what people say, putting races behind a time gated pay wall is greedy.
You act as if it were just some cosmetic "outfit." It's not. It's a whole freaking race we are talking about, locked behind a time gated pay wall. That is completely different than just an "outfit."
Smile
Challenge accepted.
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So hostile. You should get that checked.
I was not attempted to be cool by correcting you. But there are so many people who believe different things with this game already. How am I supposed to know if you mean something else, when what you write is "class"?
And how can they be considered a faction when they join one of the three available factions?