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[Editorial] Elder Scrolls Online: Thoughts on the Collector's Edition Controversy

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  • GrakulenGrakulen Staff Writer St. Charles, MOPosts: 460MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

     

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

     

    I don't consider that to be the same at all. Pandarian's have their own starting area and quest lines. They have content tied to them. The Imperials are just a vanity item. If the Imperials had their own starting area and story lines that impacted the over all game like the Pandarian's do in WoW then that would be a fair comparison. That's the difference that a lot of people seem to be missing.

    If ZeniMax was selling a content addition like that in the CE then I'd agree with you that they have crossed the line. But they aren't....

     

    If Zenimax announced that they were removing all races from the game except one, would you say they removed content?  I believe that a lot of people would.  You could argue that it is simply cosmetic and the same game is still there for everyone to play, but I wouldn't agree with that argument.

     

    If anyone reading this WOULD call the above scenario removing content, then you think races are content.  If you think races are content, asking people to pay more to access a race is locking content behind a pay wall.

     

    That argument is just as illogical as me stating that since people agree that unique mounts are vanity items and not content that if developers removed all mounts from the game they haven't removed content. In the end they have gimped travel because now you have to walk everywhere.

    You can take anything to extremes. That's not whats happening though.

  • CalvenCalven AarhusPosts: 151Member
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

     

    It shouldn't even occur.

     

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

     

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

    Do you want an imperial?  If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad. 

     

    That's stupid. It's like saying "Do you have cancer? If you want to be free of it then you must pay. If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want to be free of it"

  • GrakulenGrakulen Staff Writer St. Charles, MOPosts: 460MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

    It shouldn't even occur.

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

    It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

    Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

    This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

    It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$.  Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.

    The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money.  The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.

    That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.

     

     

    $20 is not getting nickel and dimed.  That's getting twentied.

     

    This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time.  Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them.  There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them.  It is literally a different look for a player's avatar.  It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.

     

    Though, there will be microtransactions at some point.  They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend.  They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen.  I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.

     

     

    +1

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by JJ82

    Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

    This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

    It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$.  Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.

    The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money.  The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.

    By your logic, the instances that came with the expansion pack, the story and every single other thing should also be offered up for pre-orders only.

    I know, want a specific dungeon? Pay extra. Want the next tier? Pay extra again. Want to get 5 more levels? Pay extra yet again!

    F2P nickel and diming meets subscription.

     

    No, my logic was simply stating that people are upset about something that's actually pretty common, based on when it's happening, not what's happening.  A cosmetic item, that doesn't change game play is being offered for additional money, and because it's happening at launch instead of later people want to call it a controversy.  Never mind that cosmetic items have existed in subscription game cash shops for a very, very long time.  This isn't a controversy at all.  This is a bunch of people who want to be upset about something.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • GrakulenGrakulen Staff Writer St. Charles, MOPosts: 460MMORPG.COM Staff Uncommon
    Originally posted by Calven
    Originally posted by waynejr2
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

     

    It shouldn't even occur.

     

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

     

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

    Do you want an imperial?  If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want it that bad. 

     

    That's stupid. It's like saying "Do you have cancer? If you want to be free of it then you must pay. If you aren't willing to spend for it, I don't think you really want to be free of it"

     

    Just for the record. We are talking about video games. Not cancer.

     

    PS. Listen to LizardBones. He gets it.

     
  • AsboAsbo ManchesterPosts: 796Member Uncommon

    I've not read all the posts on this subject as it's clear there are good and bad cases for both sides of several arguments. However looking at this from a business prospective and from Zenimax's side If they choose to sell their game to anyone, then they can do that at whatever price they choose. (FACT)  They have to recover their costs which they have invested to make this game which must be very high.

    SO IF you are not happy that's cool too so don't buy it, but ffs stop moaning about it and move on!

    IF however you feel that buying the CE gives you an advantage or someone else and you feel this is against your principles then again that's all cool and you entitled to your opinion and again say your bit and move on!

    But until everyone has had the opportunity to try open beta that's when it will become relevant to discharge your anger about what's happening or will be in the game, until that time unless people are in the beta and know the answers to all the comments we will find out how or what effect this will have on our playing experience.

    If people think that voicing their concerns about the price or other people buying their CE giving someone an advantage because they cannot afford or wont budge to buy it then it's beyond me why they are complaining at all, just move on as there are plenty of other games out there. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THIS GAME FULL STOP!!!

    The constant hate for certain games will not prevent others from making their own decision and playing any game. People with money to spend on their hobby wont give a HOOT what you think they will just get their wallet out and pay to play the way they want and that's all that matters. If you cannot afford and feel they have the advantage then again stop moaning and go work some extra hours and get the addition you want. If you wont buy it because of principles then again later close the door behind you I'm not bothered.

    This game is going to come out and it will come out as Zenimax wanted so you have to play it their way...Or no way! image

    Asbo

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

     

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

     

    I don't consider that to be the same at all. Pandarian's have their own starting area and quest lines. They have content tied to them. The Imperials are just a vanity item. If the Imperials had their own starting area and story lines that impacted the over all game like the Pandarian's do in WoW then that would be a fair comparison. That's the difference that a lot of people seem to be missing.

    If ZeniMax was selling a content addition like that in the CE then I'd agree with you that they have crossed the line. But they aren't....

     

    If Zenimax announced that they were removing all races from the game except one, would you say they removed content?  I believe that a lot of people would.  You could argue that it is simply cosmetic and the same game is still there for everyone to play, but I wouldn't agree with that argument.

     

    If anyone reading this WOULD call the above scenario removing content, then you think races are content.  If you think races are content, asking people to pay more to access a race is locking content behind a pay wall.

     

    That argument is just as illogical as me stating that since people agree that unique mounts are vanity items and not content that if developers removed all mounts from the game they haven't removed content. In the end they have gimped travel because now you have to walk everywhere.

    You can take anything to extremes. That's not whats happening though.

     

    Actually, that's totally different.  With one race remaining, everyone would still be able to play that single race.  There would be no disadvantage (such as everyone having to walk rather than mount).  It's just that everyone would be the same race, albeit on different alliances still.  The game would be exactly as it is now, you just wouldn't be able to be different races.  Since races are cosmetic, it wouldn't be removing content, right?  It's the exact same concept applied to the races included with the "base" game.  Sounds like you might consider races to be content.  Hopefully I was able to help. :)

  • PigozzPigozz CPosts: 842Member

    What I dont get are the people defending this decision - I mean it's like you want to give away your money - are you really that dumb??

     

    It's simple - I, as a costumer want the best service for the least amount of cash and thus this moves is just plain stupid - we already "tolerate" the monthly fees WITH the box price which is utter artificial BS that was somehow magicaly accepted

     

    People are so dumb these days Im seriously thinking about founding an MMO company and milking them hardcore - they seem to enjoy it :-S

     

     

    MMOs played chronologically:
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    Most fun: Tabula Rasa
    image

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by killion81

    Significant harm to a hobby I enjoy.  I never said it would harm me, I said that it has serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment of my hobby.  Nothing quite like context...

    How, exactly, is your enjoyment potential being "significantly" harmed?  Not saying it isn't, just asking how it is.  If you aren't planning to play an Imperial, your enjoyment potential hasn't really been impact in any way, has it?  Do you want to play an Imperial?  If so, would a one time fee of $20.00 in order to be able to spend hundreds or thousands of hours as an Imperial really be that harmful to your enjoyment?

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • CalvenCalven AarhusPosts: 151Member
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by killion81
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

     

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

     

    I don't consider that to be the same at all. Pandarian's have their own starting area and quest lines. They have content tied to them. The Imperials are just a vanity item. If the Imperials had their own starting area and story lines that impacted the over all game like the Pandarian's do in WoW then that would be a fair comparison. That's the difference that a lot of people seem to be missing.

    If ZeniMax was selling a content addition like that in the CE then I'd agree with you that they have crossed the line. But they aren't....

     

    If Zenimax announced that they were removing all races from the game except one, would you say they removed content?  I believe that a lot of people would.  You could argue that it is simply cosmetic and the same game is still there for everyone to play, but I wouldn't agree with that argument.

     

    If anyone reading this WOULD call the above scenario removing content, then you think races are content.  If you think races are content, asking people to pay more to access a race is locking content behind a pay wall.

     

    That argument is just as illogical as me stating that since people agree that unique mounts are vanity items and not content that if developers removed all mounts from the game they haven't removed content. In the end they have gimped travel because now you have to walk everywhere.

    You can take anything to extremes. That's not whats happening though.

     

    Tell me, then, if developers removed all races from the game what did they gimp then? Without races what would we be controlling? Shadows? Races are vital and connected with everything in Elder Scrolls. Even in other MMOs races play a HUGE role.. Take away Humans from World of Warcraft and you take away a huge amount of history and lore created by the previous games. If you claim races to be vanity then you strip the RPG part from the MMO. Just remember how much fuss it caused when BioWare announced that all races would be humanoid. Suddenly several iconic races were left out. Races are important. It determines who you are in the game. There's a reason for the Character Creation that exists in nearly every MMORPG. Because we want our character to be our own. If you think otherwise I believe you forget the RPG of the MMO, and then, frankly, I'm unsure why you'd work for a site called MMORPG.

  • MpfiveMpfive LondonPosts: 295Member
    Originally posted by Wicoa

    I don't have a problem with pets and mounts (cosmetic stuff) being sold in the shop. However a playable race thats only available to collectors editions just doesn't sit right with me. I was someone on the fence thinking about trying the game but Im going to pit the market against itself and see what Wildstar/SOE ALL PASS/WOD has to offer.

     

    I think ESO is outrageously overpriced but thats okay I dont have to buy it.  If in one or two years time it is pitched at a better price (considering the subscription) I might have a go.  Until then, plenty more fish in the sea.  I fell for it once with swtor, never again.

     

    IMHO they have priced themselves out of the market, there is no point in buying unless your a hardcore Scrolls fan.  NDA still in place and not many have seen the end game they have.

     

    99euro for the physical imperial edition is not overpriced:)

  • GhernGhern Shingle Springs, CAPosts: 134Member Uncommon

    Name another subscription based game that locked a race behind more money?

    I don't care if they do or do not have their own starter zone or quest lines.

    This just smells bad.

  • pmcubedpmcubed Portland, ORPosts: 289Member
    Originally posted by Ghern

    Name another subscription based game that locked a race behind more money?

    I don't care if they do or do not have their own starter zone or quest lines.

    This just smells bad.

     

    Not to mention the imperials are an iconic race for the entire ES franchise.  

     
  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by killion81

    Significant harm to a hobby I enjoy.  I never said it would harm me, I said that it has serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment of my hobby.  Nothing quite like context...

    How, exactly, is your enjoyment potential being "significantly" harmed?  Not saying it isn't, just asking how it is.  If you aren't planning to play an Imperial, your enjoyment potential hasn't really been impact in any way, has it?  Do you want to play an Imperial?  If so, would a one time fee of $20.00 in order to be able to spend hundreds or thousands of hours as an Imperial really be that harmful to your enjoyment?

     

    I'll just repeat from earlier in the thread...

     

    These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok.  This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry.  It's these sort of decisions that end up causing significant harm to a hobby I enjoy and it the end have serious potential to degrade my future enjoyment.  A lot of people already acknowledge the garbage cash grab releases that are becoming prevalent due to past "successes". 

     

    What that means is that when a new "monetization" strategy is seen as being "successful", future releases may decide to implement similar strategies and often times push it even further.  If that was a game that I might enjoy, minimally my enjoyment will be decreased by the bad taste, but more likely I will pass on the game because I actually hold to my principals.  Now I have lost all potential enjoyment from that game.  Unfortunate, I know.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by pmcubed
    Originally posted by Ghern

    Name another subscription based game that locked a race behind more money?

    I don't care if they do or do not have their own starter zone or quest lines.

    This just smells bad.

     

    Not to mention the imperials are an iconic class for the entire ES franchise.  

    ESO screwed up.

    If this was B2P then a race premium unlock is justifiable.  Not in a sub method.  Its fine that to charge for the mount and vanity item.

    But in the end, ESO can do whatever they want and you don't need to play it.

  • catlanacatlana Houston, TXPosts: 1,677Member
    Originally posted by Pigozz

    What I dont get are the people defending this decision - I mean it's like you want to give away your money - are you really that dumb??

    It's simple - I, as a costumer want the best service for the least amount of cash and thus this moves is just plain stupid - we already "tolerate" the monthly fees WITH the box price which is utter artificial BS that was somehow magicaly accepted

    People are so dumb these days Im seriously thinking about founding an MMO company and milking them hardcore - they seem to enjoy it :-S

    You do not seem to get it. I spend far more money than $20 on things I enjoy. Even something as simple as concert tickets for $250 each can be a lot of fun. What is the relative value you get out of the entertainment? How does that entertainment help you? If $20 is too much for you, go hang out with your buddies or grind away in a f2p. Or better yet, work on improving your life. Your life is what you make of it.  

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

    It shouldn't even occur.

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

    It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

    Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

    This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

    It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$.  Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.

    The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money.  The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.

    That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.

    $20 is not getting nickel and dimed.  That's getting twentied.

    This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time.  Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them.  There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them.  It is literally a different look for a player's avatar.  It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.

    Though, there will be microtransactions at some point.  They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend.  They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen.  I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.

    +1

    So because it's a $20 charge it's okay? That must make the $200 preorder pack for Neverwinter 10x as okay, right? You're both ignoring the part where he said that whole mtx/dlc thing wasn't going to be a part of this game because they were choosing the subscription model instead. He made the point of differentiating from cash shops and mtx, not me. You keep talking about WoW and pandas and sparkle ponies, but this isn't WoW. We're talking about how he said and alluded to one thing and then how he did something different. I'm saying that is wrong and that we should not give developers or publishers a pass to do this. We should expect them to speak clearly and transparently. What they've gotten away with in the past doesn't mean it should continue.

    I'm also pointing out a double-standard here on mmorpg.com how F2P games that go into soft release are heavily grilled and questioned early about their monetization methods and costs while games requiring a sub (a higher minimum investment) are given excuse articles as to why their charges are okay.

    This has nothing to do with the quality of the game, although I think it's a poor practice to accept money while keeping a legal NDA up, much worse than F2P games using the beta label and taking money. At least with those games you can see what you get before you buy. How convenient is it that they're taking money for the game, but "oops" the game can't be reviewed because of the NDA. Oh well, c'est la vie?

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,067Member Uncommon
    I think the big loser in this is ZSOs defence of the subscription. When it was being discussed I asked the - rhetoricsl - question: Does this mean there will never be an expansion? I didn't thinm the first expansion would be pre-launch!

    For that is what this boils down to. Content behind a pay gate.

    l'm ok with paid for content btw. Its subs as a given I have an issue with. They create an expectation of entitlement - check. They are fundamentally dishonest imo - check.

    If ZSO need to charge $200 a box so be it. Charge everyond.

    This move suggests that retail pre-orders are down; the orders from BestBuy etc. They have gone with a sub and retailers have responded. So its a cash grab.

    For thoze undecided -the NDA staying up wait. The CE will be available long after laun h anx it will get cheaper.


  • Randallt3mpRandallt3mp Menlo Park, CAPosts: 168Member
    Originally posted by Dewguy79
    Originally posted by eric1000
    Originally posted by rochrist
    I actually think an awful lot of people would be pretty ecstatic with a modern DAoC remake. Just sayin

    You're right, but not if I could say play a troll as Albion.  What made realm pride was in no small part due to the differences, there will be no realm pride in ESO now that any race can join any alliance.  Dumbest decision ever.

     

    Dumbest decision to you.  Their preorder sales tell a different story.  But hey your entitled to your opinion. 

    Ya and McDonalds is the best restaurant, and justin bieber is the most talented artist ever.

    MMOs Played: FFXI,Age of Conan, Aion, Rift, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, GW2

    Playing:None

    Waiting For: Wildstar, The Repopulation, Archeage, TESO, Warhammer 40K:EC, EQN

  • tyrsontyrson edmonton, ABPosts: 34Member
    Originally posted by NightBandit

    I've not read all the posts on this subject as it's clear there are good and bad cases for both sides of several arguments. However looking at this from a business prospective and from Zenimax's side If they choose to sell their game to anyone, then they can do that at whatever price they choose. (FACT)  They have to recover their costs which they have invested to make this game which must be very high.

    SO IF you are not happy that's cool too so don't buy it, but ffs stop moaning about it and move on!

    IF however you feel that buying the CE gives you an advantage or someone else and you feel this is against your principles then again that's all cool and you entitled to your opinion and again say your bit and move on!

    But until everyone has had the opportunity to try open beta that's when it will become relevant to discharge your anger about what's happening or will be in the game, until that time unless people are in the beta and know the answers to all the comments we will find out how or what effect this will have on our playing experience.

    If people think that voicing their concerns about the price or other people buying their CE giving someone an advantage because they cannot afford or wont budge to buy it then it's beyond me why they are complaining at all, just move on as there are plenty of other games out there. YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUY THIS GAME FULL STOP!!!

    The constant hate for certain games will not prevent others from making their own decision and playing any game. People with money to spend on their hobby wont give a HOOT what you think they will just get their wallet out and pay to play the way they want and that's all that matters. If you cannot afford and feel they have the advantage then again stop moaning and go work some extra hours and get the addition you want. If you wont buy it because of principles then again later close the door behind you I'm not bothered.

    This game is going to come out and it will come out as Zenimax wanted so you have to play it their way...Or no way! image

    truth.

    This is an awesome way for them to create hype and get some much needed dollars up front.

    In all honesty would not have rolled an Imp, just another human. But know with the some what exclusivity of them and the cool armour. It was more the horse, rings, 5days.

    Again folks the choice is yours, you be voting with your wallets.

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Common
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Grakulen
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

    It shouldn't even occur.

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

    It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

    Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

    This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

    It was still additional content, and it cost me extra $$.  Had I purchased it when it first released, it would have cost me $40.

    The complaint here isn't that there is extra content that costs extra money.  The complaint here is that there is extra content that costs extra money that's available at launch.

    That isn't my complaint. My complaint is that Firor made a point of saying that the subscription was the right fit for ESO so their wouldn't be pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions, that everyone would have the same core game experience for the sub. The niggle comes with the definition of "core" experience. It's the same smoke and mirrors type of marketing that Turbine uses. It still doesn't change the fact that he strongly inferred with that statment there would be none of this and yet here it is.

    $20 is not getting nickel and dimed.  That's getting twentied.

    This type of thing, cosmetic items, mounts, etc. in cash shops have existed in subscription games for a very long time.  Imperials are a race, sure, but there's no additional content tied to them.  There are no areas that are unlocked by being an Imperial and no starter zone content that comes with them.  It is literally a different look for a player's avatar.  It's not all that different from the options currently available in other subscription cash shops.

    Though, there will be microtransactions at some point.  They have built in ways to give some players things and not give all the players things based on how much money they spend.  They are certainly not wanting to go with some sort of F2P Microtransaction system to fund the game, but they certainly have the framework in place to make it happen.  I'm not concerned about any of this, but if I was, that's what I'd be concerned about.

    +1

    So because it's a $20 charge it's okay? That must make the $200 preorder pack for Neverwinter 10x as okay, right? You're both ignoring the part where he said that whole mtx/dlc thing wasn't going to be a part of this game because they were choosing the subscription model instead. He made the point of differentiating from cash shops and mtx, not me. You keep talking about WoW and pandas and sparkle ponies, but this isn't WoW. We're talking about how he said and alluded to one thing and then how he did something different. I'm saying that is wrong and that we should not give developers or publishers a pass to do this. We should expect them to speak clearly and transparently. What they've gotten away with in the past doesn't mean it should continue.

    I'm also pointing out a double-standard here on mmorpg.com how F2P games that go into soft release are heavily grilled and questioned early about their monetization methods and costs while games requiring a sub (a higher minimum investment) are given excuse articles as to why their charges are okay.

    This has nothing to do with the quality of the game, although I think it's a poor practice to accept money while keeping a legal NDA up, much worse than F2P games using the beta label and taking money. At least with those games you can see what you get before you buy. How convenient is it that they're taking money for the game, but "oops" the game can't be reviewed because of the NDA. Oh well, c'est la vie?

    +2

    Edit: And the yellow is why we keep seeing these "money grabs."

  • LugorsLugors colorado springs, COPosts: 180Member Common
    Like many of the posters, and the OP for the article, I don't understand the angst over having a race locked to the CE.  How is it different than having a different skin for a weapon, or hat, or any other cosmetic feature?  I would look at it in game and think, you spent 50 dollars more for the same game and experience. 
  • knapuknapu GifhornPosts: 131Member

    dont know why everyone so excited as a pc gamer for a console mmo with 4 skills in the hotbar, if i would had ps4 or X1 i would buy it for sure but i dont like games that are stripped of alot of things just so they can be playable on console which hurts the pc gamers .

    Awsome graphics and thats it waiting for  the repopulation and EQN  and Oculus rift !!!!  thats game changer and not some same old with new graphics and stripped on top of it :/ ... 

    Thats just my opinion so dont hate the player  hate the game :P.

    I am the punishment of God...
    If you had not committed great sins,
    God would not have sent a punishment like me upon you
    — Genghis Khan

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by JJ82

    By your logic, the instances that came with the expansion pack, the story and every single other thing should also be offered up for pre-orders only.

    I know, want a specific dungeon? Pay extra. Want the next tier? Pay extra again. Want to get 5 more levels? Pay extra yet again!

    F2P nickel and diming meets subscription.

    No, my logic was simply stating that people are upset about something that's actually pretty common, based on when it's happening, not what's happening.  A cosmetic item, that doesn't change game play is being offered for additional money, and because it's happening at launch instead of later people want to call it a controversy.  Never mind that cosmetic items have existed in subscription game cash shops for a very, very long time.  This isn't a controversy at all.  This is a bunch of people who want to be upset about something.

    Not in games where we were told that the game HAS TO have race and faction locks in an MMO in order to defend DaoC 2 with the TES name on it.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • ArglebargleArglebargle Austin, TXPosts: 1,414Member Uncommon

    'Much ado about not much.'

     

    Two days ago you couldn't play Imperials at all.   Now you can, but just for a bit more money.  It's not like they promised it, and then put it behind a paywall.  There are other benefits in the package as well, for people who support the game.  Games do need to make profits to continue in existence, although that's not always even enough.

     

    The 'Any race, any faction' part is a major plus.  Their antiquated design, which didn't fit well with ES, is getting fixed.   They ran in to a load of complaints about their old design, and came up with a clever, and slightly evil, way to implement it.  Pre-orders!  

     

    This is pretty much the design I told them to use (sans pre-order), as it requires no change to the mechanics, and allows folks to play the game as they want.   There's a chance they'll get my money now, where before, there was none.  Pretty sure they've done a cost benefit analysis on this.

    If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.

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