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[Editorial] Elder Scrolls Online: Thoughts on the Collector's Edition Controversy

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Comments

  • orbitxoorbitxo fort lauderdale, FLPosts: 1,405Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nttajira

    Now they give the option of the imperial race not faction locked, WHAT A JOKE !!

    I'm saying all that, but I'm going to play the games because that amazing and nothing else better currently out and probably buy the collector edition for the horse+the race but this doesn't change how zenimax have changed how I view them = really bad !!

    iam ok with imperial beign neutral. IF theres a short lore togo with it.

    i always thought blizzard screwed up with deathknights and pandas= its clear to see which faction they 'really'  belong too..

    that  said...with elders its safe to say imperials can play either factions- iam ok with that..

  • RuienRuien Durant, OKPosts: 39Member

    I bought the digital imp. I am happy with my choice. I don't see the controversy. What I do see is the over all entitled mentality that rules the forums on this site.

    As Madimorga stated, people think because they pay an amount they are entitled to everything. That could be true in other areas of a market but it hasn't always applied to games or gaming. In fact that mentality has been very detrimental to gaming on a whole with games losing any type of challenge. it has also lead to games being made that emphasize the "reward" over the game play. Now developers create an award and then make gameplay around it for you to do to get it. Thats how you get dailies for gold or tokens or faction so you can get the new uber sword. Its pathetic.

    ESO has done something different. They have put the emphasis back on the gameplay and the reward is just an extra. Thats why you have so many entitled pukes who don't like the game. They have never known anything different than the WoW and its clones mentality.

    If  ESO stays the way it is, I will be giving them money just to let them know at least 1 person appreciates what they have done.

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,176Member Uncommon

    If this pre-order deal is a success it bodes ill for the future of MMOs.

    Companies will start deliberately locking content and developing games in a way that you will have to pay even more to unlock.

    You hate F2P because its nickel and diming? Just wait, now you will have to buy a game, pay a sub and still have to pay more to unlock content!

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • MMOGamer71MMOGamer71 Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,930Member Common
    Originally posted by Ruien

    I bought the digital imp. I am happy with my choice. I don't see the controversy. What I do see is the over all entitled mentality that rules the forums on this site.

    As Madimorga stated, people think because they pay an amount they are entitled to everything. That could be true in other areas of a market but it hasn't always applied to games or gaming. In fact that mentality has been very detrimental to gaming on a whole with games losing any type of challenge. it has also lead to games being made that emphasize the "reward" over the game play. Now developers create an award and then make gameplay around it for you to do to get it. Thats how you get dailies for gold or tokens or faction so you can get the new uber sword. Its pathetic.

    ESO has done something different. They have put the emphasis back on the gameplay and the reward is just an extra. Thats why you have so many entitled pukes who don't like the game. They have never known anything different than the WoW and its clones mentality.

    If  ESO stays the way it is, I will be giving them money just to let them know at least 1 person appreciates what they have done.

    Yeah offering a subscription based game with race pay locks like a F2P masked as a CE is an entitlement.

  • aslan132aslan132 Tampa, FLPosts: 378Member Uncommon

    So, I get all the controversy over the race and everything, and honestly its only a part of the problem for me. People are really latching onto the fact that preorders get "any race in any faction", and collectors get "Imperial Race".

     

    At first I was upset as anyone. Races in this game are not merely cosmetic as the author of this article would have you believe. They do have racial abilities, and skill lines, and do have an impact on gameplay. So all the hubbub over gating content behind a money wall is completely founded. Zenimax really needs to consider the larger implications of this.

     

    That being said, I was most excited about "play any race in any faction" as I plan to play this game with my GF. I wanted to play Dark Elf, she wants to be Khajiit. I got excited to learn that we can both play our chosen races and still play together. 

     

    Theres another issue though, and its one that seems to not have taken hold in the larger community. I will post directly from the ESO official preorder site:

     

    • When will I be able to redeem the digital items from the Explorer’s Pack or Imperial Edition?    
    • On PC / Mac, the earliest players will be able to receive their digital items from the Explorer's Pack or Imperial Edition is April 4th. On or after this date, their items will be sent to them via in game mail upon their first login. This mail will not expire and a full mail box will not prevent its arrival. Console customers will receive their digital items upon the announced launch date in June, 2014.
     
    Ok, so for those that havent caught it yet, if you want to take advantage of any preorder perk or collectors perk, like Imperials or playing other races.... YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP YOUR HEADSTART.
     
    Sorry for the caps, but making sure you see it. Ok abit dramatic, but perks wont be awarded until AFTER launch. Not during headstart/early access. That means to play the race I want (or Imperial) you have to reroll after headstart. Sure you can play a different character for those 5 days, but why? If after those 5 days im just starting over again, whats the point? Its not exactly a game that requires you to need alts. So if I want to take advantage of the 5 days early access to get ahead of the launch day rush, and even get into Cyrodiil early on, I still cant play the race I want. 
     
     
    So the real question is, why are we paying $80-$100 for a race, that we cant play for the first 5 days? You have to choose between early access and the race of your choice. Talk about a rip-off. I was all for the CE and preorder perks, but Im not paying $80 bucks to LOSE my head start. 
  • baphametbaphamet omaha, NEPosts: 2,836Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by SlyLoK
    Originally posted by JJ82 " If anything they have provided a laurel leaf to the Elder Scrolls players that were upset about faction locks. Does this seem counter intuitive to the stance they took on faction locks originally? A little" No. What it did was prove that everything they said about why they used the base game design was a complete and total lie. Most TES fans that got upset about the game was WHY ISNT IT OPEN WORLD like TES games? We were told they HAD TO make it this way for realm pride and because MMOs require sacrifices. It was all BS, like most people said and they PROVED it. Its not a laurel, its a carrot on a stick to lead us away from the real issue, a poor game design that was just shown to be worthless made by people with no intention of making a TES game, just a DaoC remake.
    No. It just means they heard what some people said and their dislike of the faction lock. And with a simple preorder they can now do what they wanted. The faction lock was originally there to keep one faction from being vastly more populated than the others.

    The only controversy is coming from the people that have always bashed on TESO no matter what.. Now that they offer the option its " OMGZ what they said before was a LIE!111!!1! ".  


    ^^ that.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by aslan132

    So, I get all the controversy over the race and everything, and honestly its only a part of the problem for me. People are really latching onto the fact that preorders get "any race in any faction", and collectors get "Imperial Race".

     

    At first I was upset as anyone. Races in this game are not merely cosmetic as the author of this article would have you believe. They do have racial abilities, and skill lines, and do have an impact on gameplay. So all the hubbub over gating content behind a money wall is completely founded. Zenimax really needs to consider the larger implications of this.

     

    That being said, I was most excited about "play any race in any faction" as I plan to play this game with my GF. I wanted to play Dark Elf, she wants to be Khajiit. I got excited to learn that we can both play our chosen races and still play together. 

     

    Theres another issue though, and its one that seems to not have taken hold in the larger community. I will post directly from the ESO official preorder site:

     

    • When will I be able to redeem the digital items from the Explorer’s Pack or Imperial Edition?    
    • On PC / Mac, the earliest players will be able to receive their digital items from the Explorer's Pack or Imperial Edition is April 4th. On or after this date, their items will be sent to them via in game mail upon their first login. This mail will not expire and a full mail box will not prevent its arrival. Console customers will receive their digital items upon the announced launch date in June, 2014.
     
    Ok, so for those that havent caught it yet, if you want to take advantage of any preorder perk or collectors perk, like Imperials or playing other races.... YOU HAVE TO GIVE UP YOUR HEADSTART.
     
    Sorry for the caps, but making sure you see it. Ok abit dramatic, but perks wont be awarded until AFTER launch. Not during headstart/early access. That means to play the race I want (or Imperial) you have to reroll after headstart. Sure you can play a different character for those 5 days, but why? If after those 5 days im just starting over again, whats the point? Its not exactly a game that requires you to need alts. So if I want to take advantage of the 5 days early access to get ahead of the launch day rush, and even get into Cyrodiil early on, I still cant play the race I want. 
      
    So the real question is, why are we paying $80-$100 for a race, that we cant play for the first 5 days? You have to choose between early access and the race of your choice. Talk about a rip-off. I was all for the CE and preorder perks, but Im not paying $80 bucks to LOSE my head start. 

    I think you are misreading this.  It refers to digital *items* arriving in the in game mail.  Your racial choice occurs in character creation, it has nothing to do with items.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,608Member Uncommon
    • CE pre-order... check.
    • Sorting through 20 guild invites...to do.
    • Theorycrafting builds...coming soon

    Now I'm just waiting to play... everything else is just background noise.

  • ReallymjReallymj loveland, OHPosts: 43Member

    All I see is a bunch of negative Neds and their sense of never ending entitlement. Might as well say you won't play unless you get a football helmet full of cottage cheese and naked pictures of Bea Arthur.

     

    ~Im not what I am~

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon

    I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

    The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

    If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Posts: 865Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by rochrist
    I actually think an awful lot of people would be pretty ecstatic with a modern DAoC remake. Just sayin

    You're right, but not if I could say play a troll as Albion.  What made realm pride was in no small part due to the differences, there will be no realm pride in ESO now that any race can join any alliance.  Dumbest decision ever.

  • Jaychi72Jaychi72 Lake Elsinore, CAPosts: 66Member Common

    looking for a group of people to Donate their time to make a game that everyone wants.

    Any takers?

  • PyatraPyatra Kansas City, KSPosts: 644Member
    Originally posted by Jaychi72

    looking for a group of people to Donate their time to make a game that everyone wants.

    Any takers?

    Candy Crush?

  • pmcubedpmcubed Portland, ORPosts: 289Member
    Originally posted by Reallymj

    All I see is a bunch of negative Neds and their sense of never ending entitlement. Might as well say you won't play unless you get a football helmet full of cottage cheese and naked pictures of Bea Arthur.

     

    I think you fail to see the future repercussions if this becomes standard.  What is to stop every developer from holding back content and/or charging for content stuff over cosmetics?  The answer is the concerned consumer obviously. But, the dev's are shooting themselves in the foot when they make decisions that lead consumers to feel jaded.  It changes people's opinion to, "let's wait and see".  That approach leads to shallow F2P games, because both the developers and consumers don't feel like taking a risk.  

  • Stuka1000Stuka1000 Posts: 865Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dewguy79
    Originally posted by eric1000
    Originally posted by rochrist
    I actually think an awful lot of people would be pretty ecstatic with a modern DAoC remake. Just sayin

    You're right, but not if I could say play a troll as Albion.  What made realm pride was in no small part due to the differences, there will be no realm pride in ESO now that any race can join any alliance.  Dumbest decision ever.

     

    Dumbest decision to you.  Their preorder sales tell a different story.  But hey your entitled to your opinion. 

     

    So you have inside information concerning pre-order numbers that nobody else other than zenimax have?  Out with it then.  Nowhere in the NDA does it say that you are not allowed to talk about pre-order numbers.

  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    It's an arm twisting of sorts, a collectors edition can be sold without altering the game. Many of us would buy a CE for a tiny statue, a metal container, a poster, or any number of out of game items that have no bearing on the game. So logically speaking - Zen is being greedy. I know how I play and think, the ramifications of greed are intangible and won't show up on any spreadsheet we ever see.
  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

    The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

    If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

    I can understand disliking the hypocrisy of someone criticizing Neverwinter's pre-order, and not ESO's.  I have never criticized any game's pre-order package on the grounds that it gave too much.

    As for the "integrity" of a game company, I'm honestly not understanding why you care.  If they made a fun game, [mod edit]  It's about having fun, not about rewarding or punishing the personal failings of the developer.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,187Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

    The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

    If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

    I can understand disliking the hypocrisy of someone criticizing Neverwinter's pre-order, and not ESO's.  I have never criticized any game's pre-order package on the grounds that it gave too much.

    As for the "integrity" of a game company, I'm honestly not understanding why you care.  If they made a fun game, they could have spent the 90s hanging out with Michael Jackson and Roman Polanski at Neverland with a boy scout troop and truckloads of blow, and I would still play the game.  It's about having fun, not about rewarding or punishing the personal failings of the developer.

    Because integrity matters to some people. Those lifestyle examples you gave don't pertain to the game and how it was marketed so I don't care about them. I don't care about Brad McQuaid's history and mistakes. I care about how he's handling his company and new game now.  I care about how Matt Firor presented this game. Would you give a pass if they sold the CE and on day one decided to give all those CE perks to every customer?

    It's not about the moral lifestyle of the developer. It's about things they say, pertaining to the product, and how they're selling it. There is a reason bait and switch it illegal. Misrepresenting what you're selling is considered poor business ethics. That doesn't make the game not fun. It does however raise a question about how honest they're being in their entire presentation.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

     

    It shouldn't even occur.

     

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

     

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

    The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

    If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

    I can understand disliking the hypocrisy of someone criticizing Neverwinter's pre-order, and not ESO's.  I have never criticized any game's pre-order package on the grounds that it gave too much.

    As for the "integrity" of a game company, I'm honestly not understanding why you care.  If they made a fun game, they could have spent the 90s hanging out with Michael Jackson and Roman Polanski at Neverland with a boy scout troop and truckloads of blow, and I would still play the game.  It's about having fun, not about rewarding or punishing the personal failings of the developer.

    Because integrity matters to some people. Those lifestyle examples you gave don't pertain to the game and how it was marketed so I don't care about them. I don't care about Brad McQuaid's history and mistakes. I care about how he's handling his company and new game now.  I care about how Matt Firor presented this game. Would you give a pass if they sold the CE and on day one decided to give all those CE perks to every customer?

    It's not about the moral lifestyle of the developer. It's about things they say, pertaining to the product, and how they're selling it. There is a reason bait and switch it illegal. Misrepresenting what you're selling is considered poor business ethics. That doesn't make the game not fun. It does however raise a question about how honest they're being in their entire presentation.

     

    Completely agree.  What's amazing is that it looks like honesty and integrity have been absent in some circles long enough that people don't even recognize it to know when it's been breached.  If that isn't an appalling indictment of society as a whole, I'm not sure what is.

     

    I would also like to point out that I'm very much in agreement with several posters whom I don't typically agree with on this issue.  Supporting integrity and honesty very much transcends typical forum bickering.  This actually IS a big deal.  These large companies set industry wide precedents on what type of behavior is ok.  This will affect the people that choose not to buy TESO, if TESO is considered a success within the industry, by defining what is considered acceptable business practices in the MMORPG marketplace.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

     

    It shouldn't even occur.

     

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

     

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

     

    It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • neumneum OsakaPosts: 137Member Uncommon
    I am totally ok with spending a few extra bucks to play a race.  I am getting two imperial editions. If someone does not have to money to enjoy a hobby get a new hobby.

  • Ramonski7Ramonski7 Aurora, ILPosts: 2,656Member Uncommon

    I don't see the controversy. Pay $5 and live out your rpg fantasy. Is $5 too much for those who really want to play ESO anyway? I've seen people pay more for games that don't exist yet. So for those saying that this takes away from faction pride think again. Once you pick a faction, all characters (regardless of race) are locked into that faction. So how is that exactly taking away from faction pride? Faction pride is based on fighting for a cause not a race.

     

    That being said how can you actually think that at this day and age that racial stat bonuses will be that overpowered? Do you seriously believed that? I haven't seen that level of unbalanced game play since....a single player rpg. So what if some people want to pay $100 for exclusivity. I see others talking about how cheap this genre is based on other entertainment venues, yet here are the pro-F2Players harping on yet another perceived sub based evil. Not taking into account just how long companies have been offering CE packages. But god forbid that they include something that could be useful beyond the first 10 levels....man this crowd....

    image
    "Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."

  • PyatraPyatra Kansas City, KSPosts: 644Member
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    I enjoy posing critical questions and sifting new games. I think it's good for developers and the games if they can stand that test. It doesn't have to be negative, but critical thinking and questioning is nearly always good.

    The problem, for me, is a question of integrity. Firor and Zeni have been misleading at best about how they're charging for the game. Like I said before, Neverwinter got raked over the coals for a $200 pre-order package but ESO gets a string of excuse articles. Why isn't this developer and Firor in particular being taken to task for making statements that don't match up? He said the sub was because pay-gates and "nickel and dime" microtransactions didn't fit the ESO premium experience. Well that's not true, but the author's answer is that it's okay to dismiss integrity because other people do it.

    If we continually get game and service experiences that we find lacking, it's because we don't have any accountability. I'm sure the game is fun and people will like it. That doesn't mean we should overlook mistakes being made.

    I can understand disliking the hypocrisy of someone criticizing Neverwinter's pre-order, and not ESO's.  I have never criticized any game's pre-order package on the grounds that it gave too much.

    As for the "integrity" of a game company, I'm honestly not understanding why you care.  If they made a fun game, they could have spent the 90s hanging out with Michael Jackson and Roman Polanski at Neverland with a boy scout troop and truckloads of blow, and I would still play the game.  It's about having fun, not about rewarding or punishing the personal failings of the developer.

    and then Robocop showed up and took them out and saved the boy scouts, not the new PG-13 Robocop.  But 80's Robocop the one that blows punks away by shooting them like 30 times each..... sorry couldn't resist.

     

     

    Also this CE thing is blown out of proportion, probably because nothing big is launching right now.

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,176Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris

    "Comparatively $20 for an entire race could be considered fair market value if not an outright steal."

     

    It shouldn't even occur.

     

    That's like paying extra to be a Pandarian in WoW (a multi-faction race).

     

    Imperials have been in Elder Scrolls since Morrowind, and to see they become available for extra cash now? That's the definition of a money grab, and feels every bit like it (as things you always had now must be bought -- in the same franchise -- IS pickpocketing).

    It cost me $10 to be a Pandaren in WoW.

    Pandarens came with an expansion pack, it was not a pre-order special only race.

    This is F2P style nickel and diming for a sub based game. Create a game with set limitations, offering away around them for more money.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

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