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Thanks everyone for the continued discussion about our kickstarter. As mentioned earlier in the thread, we posted a rather lengthy interview with Curse today, as well as information about how combat will be designed in Pantheon.
We're trending much better this weekend so far, and we picked up a bunch more first time pledgers - thank you all for that! Those of you that are still on the fence or skeptical about the project, thank you for chiming in too - your feedback's also greatly appreciated.
Again, outside of the really poor job at creating the Kickstarter, my issues are listed above. I'd like to know how the funding will be used and how much of your own resources you are using. Even small Indy groups generally have their own website and have done the groundwork before presenting their case to the community. Your group is not a small Indy one, and in my opinion should be held to a higher standard.
As someone who manages large projects for a living, the first thing I'd suggest is to reorganize your Kickstarter page with a better table of contents breaking it down into sections. Then move the lore and vast majority of newly created IP into a segregate Pantheon Website. If you really are too constrained to buy a website, just use a free domain, but give yourself your own arena to update and add stuff that isn't built around just the funding site.
I have zero doubts the team you have can design a killer MMO. I also have zero confidence in this project since I do not see one hard charging business professional in that team who understands deadlines, deliverables, management, and projects. There are enough of us business pro's out there who love this genre that you could be leveraging and who would add some reality to this KS.
You know, folks after seeing how we forgive dishonest, corrupted, and immoral politicians, I suppose we can forgive BM. I mean after all he apparently if reports are correct offered to buy back the source code of his old "visionary masterpiece" in Vanguard, but was turned down because Smedley wants to keep that code at SoE. This has been an interesting month, hasn't it?
I will, forgive Brad. I beta tested Vanguard, a broken and unfinished mmo. I will forget that employees were "let go" on the parking lot of Sigil studios. Mr McQuaid, I will let that go. I will even forgive myself for the foolish vigor I had pre-beta as I enthusiastically supported the hoopla and hype that blinded me to what was or was not happening with that mmo, in truth. I can find it in my heart to say I'm sorry that I was so disappointed, hurt, and angry after my beta experience and my initial 15 levels of torture in Vanguards first weeks.
Now, as a partially corrected Vanguard will be sunsetted into oblivion, I sadly look to an uncertain future at SoE, a place you had returned to for a short time, BM. I'm not quite sure how to take that valiant attempt at saving your old visionary game, Vanguard. But alas, it is not to be.
Thus, I say I forgive and forget as much as my mind and heart may allow. I will NOT however be fooled again! We all shall see if redemption may have turned Brad's vision into something truly tangible. I shall not take part. It is my choice and I won't follow this time.
I hope you might understand Brad McQuaid and forgive me for my doubt, sir...
All I want is the truthJust gimme some truthJohn Lennon
Originally posted by alyndale You know, folks after seeing how we forgive dishonest, corrupted, and immoral politicians, I suppose we can forgive BM. I mean after all he apparently if reports are correct offered to buy back the source code of his old "visionary masterpiece" in Vanguard, but was turned down because Smedley wants to keep that code at SoE. This has been an interesting month, hasn't it? I will, forgive Brad. I beta tested Vanguard, a broken and unfinished mmo. I will forget that employees were "let go" on the parking lot of Sigil studios. Mr McQuaid, I will let that go. I will even forgive myself for the foolish vigor I had pre-beta as I enthusiastically supported the hoopla and hype that blinded me to what was or was not happening with that mmo, in truth. I can find it in my heart to say I'm sorry that I was so disappointed, hurt, and angry after my beta experience and my initial 15 levels of torture in Vanguards first weeks. Now, as a partially corrected Vanguard will be sunsetted into oblivion, I sadly look to an uncertain future at SoE, a place you had returned to for a short time, BM. I'm not quite sure how to take that valiant attempt at saving your old visionary game, Vanguard. But alas, it is not to be. Thus, I say I forgive and forget as much as my mind and heart may allow. I will NOT however be fooled again! We all shall see if redemption may have turned Brad's vision into something truly tangible. I shall not take part. It is my choice and I won't follow this time. I hope you might understand Brad McQuaid and forgive me for my doubt, sir... Alyn
In the AMA Smedley commented on the idea of selling the source code or making it publicly available. He said too much of the code is shared amongst all SoE titles for them to do that.
Originally posted by seldin Sorry for the ignorance but do kick starters always start slow and ramp up to the end. I been watching the pantheon kickstarter and debating on whether to be a backer, but at the pace the amounts are going up it looks like they are going to need a pretty bit of an influx of backer soon or not make their goal. I assume that Pantheon will continue even if they don't make their goal and I don't seem them even coming close to stretch goals. Their stretch goals seem nuts.
Generally, yes. Depending on how much hype their is, most of it happens within the first hour, and within the last 2 days of the Kickstarter. That's how Camelot Unchained went. As for this game, all they really need is the 800k to attract other investors and then open up additional rounds of funding if there is any interest, so the stretch goals will likely be met in some capacity.
Originally posted by Convo The sooner this goes over funding goal the better. If you plan to back but haven't, hopefully you won't wait. We want publishers to see a lot of interest in this project ASAP.. Spread the word too!
As Convo, said ... spread the world.
I have read lots of time when people on MMORPG complains about the linear MMOs, quest hubs and quests which are on rails. This is your chance. Act now and pledge so we get an epic game back to the arena. Here is maybe our last chance doing something so we in the end gets a game worth playing. The trend last years has been to simplify the MMOs to their death. Help us get a new exciting title to look forward to, which is fun to play and remember. So pledge, spread the word and don't just complain about the linear games we see out there. Those who have been looking at other games like the extremely linear game TES online or the disney like game Wildstar or EQ next... Put your money on Pantheon if you are like us, who wants and enjoy challanges and a large open world, but dislike quest hubs and the linear path we see out there.
This is maybe... our last chance. So pledge and do your part to help out.
Originally posted by IkonisI love Vanguard, and will go back when the new multi game sub goes into effect, but I have no confidence in this. The obvious scripted dialog from the team was really bad and heeding stretch goals for basic features has turned me off.
Get all the VG you can before July, because then it turns into a pumpkin and a memory.
If you want a new idea, go read an old book.
Many kickstarters have a rampant start, then dwell down only to see a bigger surge towards the last week or so.
However Pantheon seems so dead atm, I have my doubts it will get close enough to the goal before the last week to really entice a big enough final surge to secure funding.
A shame to some, but maybe the need/playerbase just isnt here for this kind of game.
Originally posted by Rhazmuz Originally posted by seldin Sorry for the ignorance but do kick starters always start slow and ramp up to the end. I been watching the pantheon kickstarter and debating on whether to be a backer, but at the pace the amounts are going up it looks like they are going to need a pretty bit of an influx of backer soon or not make their goal. I assume that Pantheon will continue even if they don't make their goal and I don't seem them even coming close to stretch goals. Their stretch goals seem nuts.
I think there's definitely an audience for it.
The Kickstarter just isn't a very strong one. They should have come out of the gate a lot more strongly than they did. Also, while I "get" why they have their tiers set up as they do... I don't think it's a very enticing one, especially when one of the stretch goals (and a hefty one) is something many consider critical for a game at its launch (Crafting). Of course, they have already stated that Crafting will be there regardless, as their funding won't end with the KS campaign, but it would get them there faster. But not everyone will have seen that. There's a lot of people who have - through their statements/opinions - basically shown that they haven't done that much research into it to begin with (a lot of complaints and concerns that have already been addressed, etc).
But still, it's not the best put-together KS I've ever seen.
They have a rather unfortunate situation in that, while Brad McQuaid is one of the original creators of EQ1, and considered - really - one of the "fathers" of the MMORPG as we know it... he's also (and more recently) associated with Vanguard, which was a mess. Sadly, people will tend to remember you for what you did last. Also, people will always tend to dwell on the negative/mistakes people have made (except their own, of course), rather than the successes. This is especially so for MMO gamers, many of whom are chronically pessimistic and will find negative in everything.
But you can definitely see the conflict playing out. In one post you have someone saying "Brad McQuaid? Vanguard Brad McQuaid? Yeah, no... Not going near that one". In the very next post you might see, "Everquest Brad McQuaid? Hell yes! Sign me up!". So... there's that, as well.
So, I don't think it's impossible for them to reach it, yet. If they come out with a kick-ass series of updates that seriously show a lot of awesome stuff, they can maybe speed things up. But they've barely gone up 20k in the last few days... So... I don't think it's going to be one of those big success stories you see where they blast by the goal and keep going.
I'm backing it, simply because I am one of the people who, for one, believe everyone makes mistakes and screws up. And (almost) anyone deserves another chance. My take on the situation is "yes, he botched it with VG's launch... but it's still a very good game, with some great content, some real depth and a detailed, vast world. Characters were kinda ugly, though (IMO). VG's issues were technical/polish ones, not gameplay or content, and that's a result of them having tried to do too much, too soon. They also made the mistake of trying to compete directly with WoW, which is just a mistake regardless (as many MMOs to come after VG would continue to prove).
On the other hand, he's also one of the creators of Everquest, a game whose name and legacy speaks for itself. So to me, he's more than proven that he (and his team) are more than capable of creating exactly the kind of game I'm looking to play. I have no doubt of that at all.
I think they came out kinda weak with the KS campaign, though...and that could likely hurt them. Hopefully they have back-up plans, or are willing to go back to the drawing board and come back stronger and more prepared.
Nothing really about "this kind of game"
What we have here is Kickstarter burnout... How many games can one person fund? Too many KS projects (many are scams imho) and more coming in by the hour as everyone with an "idea" is jumping on the bandwagon, promising the world for very low amounts of money and the fans are eating it up (and then defending KS #2, #3, etc...)
Its just too much.
I would never back a major project on kickstart and rather think the indie games asking for 10-20K are really where the spirit of crowdfunding should be (not mega Million dollar productions-) but even supporting small single player indie games is getting difficult as there are just too many games and for the most part I STILL have not gotten most of the games I supported (even though they should have been released long ago) with a few exceptions.
EDIT- I would also note that this Kickstart project seems to be far more honest and less hype- And sadly, I guess people will support something if its overhyped and the devs lie (er...the fans will later say "They didnt realize things would ACTUALLY cost that much- But they totally do....)
Brad McQuaid = No sale
Vanguard was a prime example of wasting Microsoft's money - they were wise enough to pull out.
Originally posted by Rhazmuz Originally posted by Zapzap Which is really sad as this genre is about dead and desperately needs a game that brings challenge back to the genre.
I mean things change, and if the premise for a game like Pantheon is too niche/not enough people want this anymore, how can you say the genre needs it?
I disagree, there are plenty of we old schoolers still wanting an mmo like Ultima Online/Asheron's Call/DAOC/EQ. That's what we started with, and that's what we like. We're not big fans of the typical themepark mmo's of today, quest/gear grinding, hand holding. We didn't all just die off, we just got a bit older, we have a lot more money to spend/more free time, but we have been forgotten.
The problem isn't that Pantheon is too niche. For some, it's Brad himself, for others it's the way they've pitched it in the initial video, no enthusiasm, reading from a script as if they're all about to fall asleep, for others it's the timeline when it could be released, for others there's not enough information, not a clear vision for the game...and the list goes on and on.
There's a market for old school mmorpg's that would bring in 200-500k subscribers probably, just like we did in the old school mmo games. It wasn't millions like WoW, but still very profitable, even though niche. We're a loyal niche crowd that will play and PAY for an old school mmorpg for years and years. Hell, I'd be glad to pay a subscription fee of $25-$50 a month for a good updated old school mmorpg, even if it meant they just updated the originals I played. There just haven't been anyone willing to make an mmo for us in so many years.
I haven't backed Pantheon so far because of many of the reasons I stated above, the release for even alpha is 2017, no telling when the game would be released. The lack of enthusiasm in the initial video presentation, and the fact that with most Kickstarters they always come back begging for more money instead of releasing what they've promised. I really want an old school mmorpg to play again, but I'm not willing to just go throw my money away on another Kickstarter that doesn't hold any promise. Maybe over the course of the Kickstarter they can change my mind and others. They need to get working on that, before they lose their opportunity.
What happens when you log off your characters????.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GFQhfhnjYMkDark Age of Camelot
Hell yes, I'm a backer. 45$ will get me into alpha/beta and I would play Pantheon spreadsheet of design goals over any MMO out there today... since Vanguard is closing that is...
Vanguard was buggy and frustrating to play at release but once it was cleaned up, its amazing gameplay designs shone bright and it was an absolute joy to play. Vanguard was almost too ambitious for their budget - especially after Microsoft decided that it didnt want to get into the MMO market.
So ya.. Brad McQuaid has been a lead developer on 2 of my favorite games of all time. Once I see some more info I will probably jump to the lifetime subscription.
Originally posted by Jacxolope
Well that makes the assumption that people are backing multiple kickstarters. I've found several interesting, but only one has gotten my support officially to date (Dreamfall: Chapters, which was a no-brainer for me). The other projects out there look very cool and quite interesting, but ultimately didn't sell me on feeling I "had" to back them. Pantheon, because of what they're trying to do and because the people working on it have the history and experience of working on these kinds of games already, will also get my support.
So, for me.. the money I backed Dreamfall with is already spent and gone. Pantheon will be the only project I'm backing at this point. I know there are others who are also more selective in what they support and what they don't as well.
So, if you're someone who wants to back every project that looks promising enough, then yeah.. I could see that becoming an issue. Otherwise, not so much.
People love to bash Vanguard.. but the problems with that game came down to Sigil trying to go "too big" too soon. It became a bigger beast than they could tame. This much has already been acknowledged. The concepts in the game, the design, the areas, and so on... that's all solid. The execution is what was hurt. With Pantheon, they're decidedly going the other direction.. they're managing their expectations more realistically, keeping the scope nice and tight and focused. So, it seems to me that they have learned their lesson, at least in terms of making sure their reach doesn't exceed their grasp.
I actually don't disagree with that.... to a degree. What McQuaid and co are looking to do is quite decidedly an indie venture, just as Dreamfall: Chapters was for Red Thread Games. Neither is going with a block-buster AAA type design or budget. Both are working on titles that are decidedly smaller scale and more niche. Both are doing it so they can avoid all the hassle that goes with the typical AAA path of dealing with Publishers, etc. So... while I do agree that the spirit of KS seems best represented by the smaller people trying to jump in... I don't think it's capped quite so low as you suggest.
It's more honest and down to earth, and they are remaining very matter-of-fact and humble, even providing caveats for much of what they answer and explain. They're not promising the moon and the stars. I also think, though, that the KS itself is a bit "weak" in terms of the amount of information they've released. I think they'd be doing better if they were stronger out of the gate.
Just funded it with 75$.. This is just my style of game.
Currently playing AO, Vanguard and EQ, and I must say its time for something new-old-skool
So, according to Kicktraq, which has been very accurate in predicting whether or not a KS is trending towards success, Pantheon will meet only 80% of its goal. That being said, there's usually a surge at the end of a campaign and I'm willing to bet its going to happen here. There will be a seemingly miraculous influx of donations. The only question is whether these will be real backers or...something else.
Is a man not entitled to the herp of his derp?
Remember, I live in a world where juggalos and yugioh players are real things.
And we're up, hope to see you in the comments:
Add ons now available on the KS!