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[Column] Guild Wars 2: Need More Heals?

124

Comments

  • loulakiloulaki PatrasPosts: 918Member

    actually the biggest decision on the game was the removal of the trinity, i love they done this step, the complaints seems to me like the criticism for something new which the majority isn't able to understand.

    somewhere in the comments i read that they took the easy way, well the truth is half, actually they took the hard way cause in order to deliver challenge and deep content with such a system you have to work hard and provide a whole new type of gameplay, but they were kinda lazy to do it or it was hard all this process or they didnt had time(=money).

     

    back to the article i would say that we dont need a healer class, but we need utilities(or traits) based on armor types, f.e. engi with heavy to have access to the tanky traits, or the guardian with the robes to have access to the supportive traits etc... that would bring much more depth in the pve and in spvp it would be more visible the way the enemy or ally plays : )

    image

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    Oh look. Another whiny thread about GW2 not being like every other MMO out there.

    And yeah it's a totally failed game with all servers busting to their seams with the new events. Must be because it has no trinity, right?

     

    GIVE IT A REST ALREADY! Not all games need to be the same and for every damn trinity whiner there's at least one (like me) who enjoy not having to rely on certain roles to fill a party. Everyone who whines it's just zerging in GW2 dungeons with no tactics has no clue or haven't played since launch. Stop it! You're making yourselves look like idiots.

     

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Fappuccino

    Far from being a flop? If that were the case, columns/articles bordering on pandering wouldn't be necessary.

    It's far from being a flop and this column indeed is not necessary in any way.

  • DraemosDraemos Antartica, AKPosts: 1,469Member
    Originally posted by Celcius
    It was not a flop obviously, as GW2 is a huge success. On the other hand, it obviously needs work, but I don't feel any of the game's problems related to the trinity are actually related to roles. They are more related to encounter difficulty and build variety. 

    Nah, the PvE grouping is a flop.  It's almost universal panned.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Draemos
    Originally posted by Celcius
    It was not a flop obviously, as GW2 is a huge success. On the other hand, it obviously needs work, but I don't feel any of the game's problems related to the trinity are actually related to roles. They are more related to encounter difficulty and build variety. 

    Nah, the PvE grouping is a flop.  It's almost universal panned.

    ... by people who don't like the game and are not playing it. Yeah what a surprise!

     

    Yet they still have tons of people playing and reportedly 350+ people working on the game.

    Ever considered maybe the success of GW2 is exactly because it didn't go for the trinity, and offered the players something different?

  • GillleanGilllean NewYork, ALPosts: 169Member

    ELEM Dagger dagger    on dodge 2 k heal   10 sec cd   skill 5 water 2k heal skill 3  1.6k heal switch to watter atutment 1.7 k heal  + Smooting mist 800 heal  and regen 800

    total of  7.3 Instant aoe heal  and 1600 regen   in celestial gear so I have 80% Crit dmg   2700 def 2600 power 30 % crit chance

    some classes can heal very nice you can call them a healers if you wish.

    gw2 miss something else Tank s   dosen't matter how much defence you have in fractal with 3800 defence my warrior gets wiped    Defence is horrable in this game it need to be reworked

     

    Gw2 last 2 years had no competition that way may call it best mmo of 2012 maybe even 2013  but its because there was no competition. WoW leave aside I quite it few years ago and will not return...

    Also what is good about gw2 is chaotic dynamic combat but no no trinity class. Warrior 1 k regen every second 4 K defence 20 + hp mage shild  TANK... but no defence mitigation is horrable you will still get wiped even from direct auto atacs from mobs.

    Elems support with boons or GOOD healing arent they Healers ?  

    All classes with zerk gear DPS  ?

    Isn't this the same ?

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon

    While it's true that GW2 had no new competition to speak of during its existence (FFXIV probably being the biggest competitor) and that ANet will need to work harder this year to keep their playerbase, introducing trinity is NOT the way to accomplish that. By doing that they would only put themselves against even more competition and alienate their current playerbase.

  • Soki123Soki123 Kelowna, BCPosts: 1,479Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    While it's true that GW2 had no new competition to speak of during its existence (FFXIV probably being the biggest competitor) and that ANet will need to work harder this year to keep their playerbase, introducing trinity is NOT the way to accomplish that. By doing that they would only put themselves against even more competition and alienate their current playerbase.

    Funny how almost everyone I know that tried GW2, would go back if trinity is added. I m sure we re not the only people that think this way.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Soki123
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    While it's true that GW2 had no new competition to speak of during its existence (FFXIV probably being the biggest competitor) and that ANet will need to work harder this year to keep their playerbase, introducing trinity is NOT the way to accomplish that. By doing that they would only put themselves against even more competition and alienate their current playerbase.

    Funny how almost everyone I know that tried GW2, would go back if trinity is added. I m sure we re not the only people that think this way.

    I'm sure you're right.

    However GW2 was not made for you. It was made for people who were tired of playing the same MMO reskinned every year. For people who love the trinity, FFXIV was made. No one is disputing that the trinity is popular. However, just because it's popular does not mean the same thing as it being the best way to design a game, or that having one is the correct decision for a game like GW2.

    GW2 works perfectly fine without a trinity. People have found ways to fulfill those roles within the current system, without relying on the devs to make all their decisions for them.

    All adding a trinity to GW2 would do, would be to successfully alienate the playerbase it currently has (which is not a small one), and then put the game in direct competition with the other dozens of trinity MMOs already on the market. It would be one of the worst business decisions Anet could possibly make.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gilllean

    ELEM Dagger dagger    on dodge 2 k heal   10 sec cd   skill 5 water 2k heal skill 3  1.6k heal switch to watter atutment 1.7 k heal  + Smooting mist 800 heal  and regen 800

    total of  7.3 Instant aoe heal  and 1600 regen   in celestial gear so I have 80% Crit dmg   2700 def 2600 power 30 % crit chance

    some classes can heal very nice you can call them a healers if you wish.

    gw2 miss something else Tank s   dosen't matter how much defence you have in fractal with 3800 defence my warrior gets wiped    Defence is horrable in this game it need to be reworked

    Gw2 last 2 years had no competition that way may call it best mmo of 2012 maybe even 2013  but its because there was no competition. WoW leave aside I quite it few years ago and will not return...

    Also what is good about gw2 is chaotic dynamic combat but no no trinity class. Warrior 1 k regen every second 4 K defence 20 + hp mage shild  TANK... but no defence mitigation is horrable you will still get wiped even from direct auto atacs from mobs.

    Elems support with boons or GOOD healing arent they Healers ?  

    All classes with zerk gear DPS  ?

    Isn't this the same ?

    Defense is fine the way it is.

    It makes you much better at taking hits, without being a passive stat that makes you unkillable. You still have to actively use abilities to stay alive (protection, block, reflect, evade, invulnerable, blind, kiting), but you can take most hits if you do mess up or run out of tricks.

    As for the last part about Elem support & zerk DPS. In practice, it really isn't much different. The main difference is that in a game like GW2 the players have to make those choices themselves. A lot of players don't like that responsibility. They don't want to have to put much thought into how to setup their class / utilize it effectively. They just want to pickup a class and be awesome. Minimal effort involved.

  • VolkonVolkon Sterling, VAPosts: 3,788Member

    The biggest problem I've noticed regarding GW2 combat is that, to be blunt, far too many people have no idea what the hell they're doing. You need to stop thinking in terms of the archaic roles and instead look at the three primary aspects of combat GW2 uses, damage, control and support. Damage is self-explanatory, hurt the bad guy. Control is restricting the enemies ability to inflict damage on you or an ally. Support is undoing or mitigating damage you and allies receive. Every profession has, by design, the ability to do all of these during a fight. Most of the skills often cover two or even three of these aspects, so what it really boils down to is this: How well do you know your skills and when is the best time to use them. You can't spam off cool down to have the best effect, you actually have to be aware of the combat situation and use the skills according to the situation. You can't settle into a simple rotation, you have to think.

     

    Oderint, dum metuant.
    image

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    Oh look. Another whiny thread about GW2 not being like every other MMO out there.

    And yeah it's a totally failed game with all servers busting to their seams with the new events. Must be because it has no trinity, right?

     

    GIVE IT A REST ALREADY! Not all games need to be the same and for every damn trinity whiner there's at least one (like me) who enjoy not having to rely on certain roles to fill a party. Everyone who whines it's just zerging in GW2 dungeons with no tactics has no clue or haven't played since launch. Stop it! You're making yourselves look like idiots.

     

     

    Have you read most of the thread that you're bashing? Most of us are fine with the trinity being removed. What we DON'T like is that its absence  REMOVED playstyle options instead of creating new ones.

     

    If somebody wants to play a support character, or a frontline damage soaker, or a crowd control specialist, they should be able to do so. Instead, what GW2 gave us is a system where everybody is a self-healing, dodge-spamming magetank. And if you're one of the people who enjoys the roles cited above, that sucks.

    <3

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Volkon

    The biggest problem I've noticed regarding GW2 combat is that, to be blunt, far too many people have no idea what the hell they're doing. You need to stop thinking in terms of the archaic roles and instead look at the three primary aspects of combat GW2 uses, damage, control and support. Damage is self-explanatory, hurt the bad guy. Control is restricting the enemies ability to inflict damage on you or an ally. Support is undoing or mitigating damage you and allies receive. Every profession has, by design, the ability to do all of these during a fight. Most of the skills often cover two or even three of these aspects, so what it really boils down to is this: How well do you know your skills and when is the best time to use them. You can't spam off cool down to have the best effect, you actually have to be aware of the combat situation and use the skills according to the situation. You can't settle into a simple rotation, you have to think.

    Well said.

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,536Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus
     

    GW2 is not that type of game. It revolves around buildcrafting & skill. Combining well thought out gear & ability load outs with efficient execution of such. If anything it leads  to more strategy (not less), and there are numerous videos that illustrate this. You don't see very many videos of WoW-like gameplay where people are taking on huge zergs with small skilled groups and succeeding. They just don't allow for that.

     

    Fair enough, and I agree that it can be that strategic. Thing is... that level of strategy and thinking isn't necessary, per examples given by others in this discussion.

     

    People will stick to the path of least resistance. And if the path of least resistance is stacking high DPS classes to clear things more quickly... that's what they're going to do. Why bring complexity into something, if a much simpler solution will work just as well, and with less chance of failure?

     

    FFXI used to have this happening a lot... only with Black Mages. People stacked Black Mages for everything... because it was "most effective" in clearing the content in most cases. The difference is, with FFXI, SE actually started implementing changes to the game and designing encounters such that merely stacking BLMs was not so effective. Players had to find other strategies to deal with those fights (and of course, they complained about it because SE had taken their "Easy Button" away).

     

    So, GW2 can offer as much depth in character builds and party compositions as it wants (and that potential is definitely there, I can see it as well). But so long as they continue to create encounters that don't require that kind of strategy/thinking... it's wasted potential. Because people are just going to continue stacking their Guardians to get through everything faster.

     

    Offering people those options is only half the equation. You have to give them legitimate reason to use them. By many accounts, GW2 never - or at least very seldom - gives you that reason.

     
     
     
     
     
  • NadiaNadia Canonsburg, PAPosts: 11,866Member Common
    Originally posted by Tekaelon
    GW1 never used the traditional trinity mechanic either but there was healing and some CC. The system worked really well in that game! GWA2 is just a mad dash for dps with self heals. Fun at first, then you start to realize something is missing.

    agree

    GW1 had no taunt - but you could specialize in healing

  • GrayImpactGrayImpact NetherlandsPosts: 983Member Uncommon

    I'd return to GW2 in an instant if it got proper healers and tanks, the game would be So so much better for it!

     

    That said, GW1 didn't really have tanks and healing there was great fun to do as well.

  • I applaud the innovative approach that creates a situation where the holy trinity is not needed.  Variety and choices are good.  If an organized group wants a specialized healer, then armor, weapons, jewelry, gems, and other upgrades to armor and weapons can be selected to boost healing ability in any class.  Some classes may be more effective at this, but the ability to produce a good amount of healing output is still a possibility in GW2 without having to go to the extreme of requiring a holy trinity.  Some organized groups may prefer a situation where most players contribute to healing.  Why would we want to regiment or require the holy trinity approach?
  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,806Member Uncommon

    The posts about players claiming they feel unimportant because their death doesn't lead to a group wipe are unbelievable.

    In games with healers and tanks, at least 60% of the party AREN'T healers and tanks and their deaths don't lead to a party wipe.

    Considering the queue times for instances, DPS players are an even larger portion of the player base.

    Is everyone complaining about the lack of a holy trinity a tank or a healer?

    So are you tank and healer player saying that you are the High Cast and that DPS are the plebes that need to bow to you?

    What a bunch of prima donnas that can't stand losing the spot light.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • raslirasli boston, MAPosts: 56Member

    I love the fact that GW2 has no holy-trinity, finally a refreshing MMO instead of the same old same old.  I think their goal of having soft trinity of dps-control-support works pretty well in WvW and PvP, however they do need to tweek their PvE encounters a little bit.  All dps, control, support roles are viable in PvE, however right now only dps is the optimal (if you like min max) in pve.  Hopefully the actions ANET is doing to address this problem will be sufficient.

    I definitaly hope ANET will not go back to the holy trinity.  People who cannot live with it can go play plenty of other MMOs.  There is no need for ANET to alienate its current player base (which is really big) by backtracking.

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,806Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dreamscaper
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    Oh look. Another whiny thread about GW2 not being like every other MMO out there.

    And yeah it's a totally failed game with all servers busting to their seams with the new events. Must be because it has no trinity, right?

     

    GIVE IT A REST ALREADY! Not all games need to be the same and for every damn trinity whiner there's at least one (like me) who enjoy not having to rely on certain roles to fill a party. Everyone who whines it's just zerging in GW2 dungeons with no tactics has no clue or haven't played since launch. Stop it! You're making yourselves look like idiots.

     

     

    Have you read most of the thread that you're bashing? Most of us are fine with the trinity being removed. What we DON'T like is that its absence  REMOVED playstyle options instead of creating new ones.

     

    If somebody wants to play a support character, or a frontline damage soaker, or a crowd control specialist, they should be able to do so. Instead, what GW2 gave us is a system where everybody is a self-healing, dodge-spamming magetank. And if you're one of the people who enjoys the roles cited above, that sucks.

    A frontline damage soaker is kind of a bad character.

    It is best that someone that wants to survive frontline combat does so on the base of movement and active defense.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Lili_BirchFlowerLili_BirchFlower Chilhowee, MOPosts: 15Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Skuall
    Originally posted by muffins89
    if this game had the "trinity" I would be playing it right now.

    +1

    dungeons are fun , but the lack of trinity kills that fun, is a dps zerg , while rolling on the floor (no laughing allowed)

     

    ppl will take only Guardian Warrior, Mesmer ....lots of those jobs around because are the only 1 that get some party play.

    GL finding a group as thief or ranger.

    Unfortunately, rangers in GW1 had this same trouble.  Oh look at the cute little arrow-chuckers with their pet!  *kick*  The way it was countered was the "Bunny thumper" build(s) - a ranger/warrior hybrid that was actually quite a lot of fun ... if you got it right.  Trappers were only used in a handful of instances, and the general ranger regardless of skill was left behind.

     

    GW2 in general, not counting dungeons or  WvW obviously, does not require or even encourage group cooperation or play, so why would the implied intricacies mentioned here be used?  My guardian goes solo into PvE and only occasionally comes across another player fighting an event to whom she can actually provide support.  Even when my guild was doing story dungeons, the guardian was eclipsed by the water ele --- and neither were of particular importance due to dps ruling.

     

    I wish if Anet had wanted a WvW or PvP game, they'd just rolled one out rather than this fail version of PvE.  We GW veterans waited so long and then were handed this beautiful, intricate, gutted game.

     
  • DrekorDrekor Griffith, ONPosts: 22Member
    Not a flop but I dont think it was an improvement. Seems like a lot less skill and tactical challenge.

    Drekor Silverfang
    The Shipwrecked Pirates

  • JudgeUKJudgeUK Posts: 847Member Uncommon

    A good article, with food for thought.

    Personally, I have always loved playing healing classes. That's not to say I've never tried dps, tank classes - I have in a few games over the years, but they've never given me the same enjoyment as healing.

    And that's the one area that I miss in GW2. I have spec'd builds to give as much healing as possible, but obviously it's not the same.

    Now I commend GW2 for trying something different, so don't revert to the trinity. But a support class as suggested by the OP could be a welcome addition to the game.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,796Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Soki123
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    While it's true that GW2 had no new competition to speak of during its existence (FFXIV probably being the biggest competitor) and that ANet will need to work harder this year to keep their playerbase, introducing trinity is NOT the way to accomplish that. By doing that they would only put themselves against even more competition and alienate their current playerbase.

    Funny how almost everyone I know that tried GW2, would go back if trinity is added. I m sure we re not the only people that think this way.

    Funny everyone I know that plays GW2 would probably quit if trinity is added.

    See how the door swings both ways?

     

  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    So, GW2 can offer as much depth in character builds and party compositions as it wants (and that potential is definitely there, I can see it as well). But so long as they continue to create encounters that don't require that kind of strategy/thinking... it's wasted potential. Because people are just going to continue stacking their Guardians to get through everything faster.

     

    Offering people those options is only half the equation. You have to give them legitimate reason to use them. By many accounts, GW2 never - or at least very seldom - gives you that reason.

     
     

    Because the trolls have come out in full blast to defend GW2 or bash it without reading the thread topic, I will just quote the one man that seems to get it in the above excerpt.

     

    For the rest of you who still do not get it:

    That's great the there is no trinity. It is a wonderfully refreshing change, except that there is no point to all the variation builds when you can just stack DPS warriors to do everything more efficiently than ANY other class. And as long as we have elitist power gamers, aka min-maxers, they will continue to force the cookie-cutter dps warrior setup on everyone else.

     

    So we went from a system that was dependent on healers/tanks to a system that shuns ANY OTHER PLAYSTYLE all for the glory of the fast dungeon clear, or tier 1 WvWvW win. THAT is what people are disappointed & upset about. What many have learned is that out of the two evils, many prefer the standard trinity system because ANet failed to utilize their newfound interdependency between class builds.

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