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[Column] Guild Wars 2: Need More Heals?

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  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,816Member Uncommon

    GW2 problems don't stem from lack of healing options but simply because dodge+vigor is too powerful, power/precision/critical damage stack so well, CC is mostly useless, conditions damage is useless, support requires no stat investment (reflections/bubbles are some of the best support in the game). (this is all dungeon talk).

    There is good healing and support options in GW2 (that could be bettered simply by number tweaks) but in most of GW2 either damage is must dodge or you can just ignore it.

     

    Also "the mindless DPS" GW2 players survive by using ACTIVE defenses that require timing, so it isn't mindless at all - it just lacks different options.

     

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • Gaia_HunterGaia_Hunter BristolPosts: 2,816Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stormpuma21

    Meh.. Lack of thorough knowledge of all classes triggered this article and only a few here touched on it so far..

    The Engineer has a Kit (medkit) that has nothing but heal skills in the form of medpacks. In the same Kit, the Engineer has two more skills that give you buffs/boons for stats like crit and one to cure conditions. Once traited they recharge super quick and can be thrown through ground targeting.

     

    And the engineer has a healing Turret that can be used in conjunction with the medpak. (Toss the healing turret on a wall/tree/ceiling and watch it never be destroyed.) 

    As far as rezzing people, the Engineer has Elixir R that can be thrown on to Allies when they are downed to instantly revive them, amongst other healing/buffing Elixirs..

    Let's also remember that the Elixir gun has 2  AoE healing spells and combined with healing turret, you have 2 AoE healing spells that can be combo'ed into.

     

    All of those skills above can be equipped on the same row. Healing Turret/Medkit/Elixir Gun and Elixir R. Full support. Even more healing if the Engineer has the Supply Crate for it's elite, which always drops a healing turret if specced for it.

    Sounds like a dedicated healer to me, if a player wants to be, but most people don't/won't play like that but the option is there...

     
     
     
     
     

    Not only that, engineers can trait their bombs to AoE heal.

    Healing turret tool belt skill generates a water field, healing turret cleansing burst creates a water field.

    Elixer gun has a water field and blast finisher.

    Big Ol'bomb is a blast finisher, shield 4 can be used as a blast finisher.

    Properly built, an engineer can recover a party health in a blink of an eye... but is just not needed for PvE dungeons/fractals and it is in fact slower than relying on active defense.

    Currently playing: GW2
    Going cardboard starter kit: Ticket to ride, Pandemic, Carcassonne, Dominion, 7 Wonders

  • SamhaelSamhael Huntsville, ALPosts: 696Member Uncommon
    In response to your question "But was attempt to rid us of the trinity a flop?" I will have to say that for me, it was.  On paper, it looked great but in practice, I discovered that I really preferred role-based play.  I want a real tank and a real healer. Hell, I want to fill either one of those roles myself.  GW2 dungeons were easily the worst part of my experience there. After doing three or four of them (with people who had done them dozens of times), I stopped playing GW2 and uninstalled it. 
  • cprikcprik stockholmPosts: 32Member Uncommon
    I think GW2 have classes and builds for "true" healers and tanks, but not the need for it. When im in a dungeon it feels like im not really needed, im just another guy spamming dps. I cant really cause the group to wipe, wich leaves me with the feeling that im unimportant. If the encounters were designed to require the trinity, i think it would work fine as so many classes can spec for DPS, heal and tank.
  • JyiigaJyiiga Seneca, SCPosts: 1,041Member Uncommon
    One of the many reasons I stopped playing this game.
  • kinartkinart KalavrytaPosts: 120Member
    It's not about whether one is harder than the other, specific roles vs hybrids of different flavor. It's about having people cooperating or not. Why the hell would i play a MMO if i didn't care about cooperating with the other players?
  • RebelScum99RebelScum99 Mesa, AZPosts: 1,090Member
    To answer the question in the article:  Yes, it was a big-time flop.  Getting rid of the trinity altogether isn't the answer.  Improving mob AI and bringing back crowd control is the answer.  
  • TheMaahesTheMaahes Marlborough, MAPosts: 185Member

    ArenaNet made the game they wanted and will develop it as they see fit, so if they have some strange phobia of "trinity" systems then so be it. A number of people seem to love the IP and the company has all the right to cater to them if they so wish.

    Personally, jack-of-all-trades are maddeningly frustrating to deal with in PvP groups. They take up a slot that I'd rather have a full-fledged healer/dps/tank take; that way I know what the player is capable of and that he knows his role. Hybrid healers heal significantly less and die far quicker, hybrid tanks are too squishy for mass PvP (especially if the game has a Guard mechanic, which it should), and hybrid dps never down a target fast enough relative to the damage that they take.

  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member

    I do not believe that the lack of the trinity is the primary cause of discontent.  The lack of options as far as character creation is the problem.  The problems with guild wars 2 are.

     

    1:  Fewer skill options, no ability to blend classes, and a horribly thought out talent tree system leads to a regression in the ability to optimize and create hybridized builds. Locking abilities to specific weapons reduces character customization even more.  Guild Wars is still far superior in character creation and the ability to mold your character into many styles of combat.

    2:  Damage mitigation is far to reliant on dodge.  Dodging is a nice mechanic that not everyone should excel at and it should not be the primary source of damage mitigation.  Dodge should be used sparingly by most classes and timed well as to be a tactic that when used can save you from certain death.

    3:  Burst damage ruins games.  When the main source of damage revolves instantaneous burst damage you NEED healers and some other forms of mitigation other than dodge.  When damage over time and the use of tactics are far less important than burst, then they are simply not used and this creates even less character builds that are played.

    4:  Not enough healing.  I do not enjoy the holy trinity.  What I do enjoy are hybridized classes with the option to heal and deal damage.  Ranged casters that heal and damage and melee ranged combatants that can heal are entertaining.  Sit in one spot and spam heals and counter debuffs isnt that enjoyable to me.

     

      I believe GW2 needs more healing but I would like to see a different style of healing.  More healers like Chloromancer from rift, Blood Mage from vanguard, and Warrior priests from warhammer.  Give us options to build a paladin that can get into melee range in platemail and melee ranged heals(not ranged heals like in WoW).

      I believe MMO's would be far more entertaining if in a group of 5-10, multiple people are healing and tanking.   I would like to see no primary healer and no primary tank.  Multiple people healing, dealing damage, CCing, and tanking to different degrees would make for a much more entertaining scenario.

  • jdizzle2k13jdizzle2k13 Exmore, VAPosts: 251Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lonzo
    I dont play GW2 becAuse of I can not play a true healer. I am a dedicated heal player

    My staff elementalist would like to have a word with you.

    Earth Attunement, #2 skill which is a blast of rocks out of the ground after a short amount of time, then switch to water and drop the #5 Healing Rain skill.  You get the regen from standing in the water field and a nice heal off the blast.

    I stack healing power, I got somewhere around 1536 healing power without the Sigil of Life stacks, which give me up to 250 more healing power.

    Warriors can spec for shout healing, Mesmers can shatter their clones and heal, Engineers have a healing turret and can spec for bomb heals, Guardians can heal with their virtues and several different weapon skills, Rangers have a spirit and an aoe healing spring.

    I highly recommend playing around with trait builds on gw2skills.net, that was where I figured out how I was going to set my characters up.

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  • NotoriousXNotoriousX Grande Cache, ABPosts: 192Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by muffins89
    if this game had the "trinity" I would be playing it right now.

    question is...would you be playing it as a healer? cause that was the problem in the old days, everyone wants the trinity but no one wants to be the healer, or if you will be the healer then after a while you will make a dps or tank alt and focus on that

    Tormented echoes of a fallen Eden
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    Yet from dust, she returned
    The dream, an enigma.... silent

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  • RemyVorenderRemyVorender Riverside, RIPosts: 3,266Member Uncommon
    I stopped playing because of lack of trinity.

    Played: AA, AC1, AC2, Aion, AO, AoC, CO, CoX, DAoC, DCUO, DN, EVE, EQ1, EQ2,
    ESO, FE, FFXI, FFXIV, FF, GW1, GW2, Istaria, L2, LoTRO, MO, MxO, NW, Rift, RoE,
    Ryzom, SB, SWG, SWTOR, TERA, TSW, WAR, WoW, WURM...

  • FappuccinoFappuccino ErgensPosts: 159Member

    ANet is to be commended for trying. Because of that, I now know what I don't want in my MMOs.

     

    "Even with this room for improvement, ArenaNet breaking away from the holy trinity is far from being a flop."

    Far from being a flop? If that were the case, columns/articles bordering on pandering wouldn't be necessary.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member

    That they did away with healing -- my main in WoW is a Holy paladin, which is a healer -- I never thought twice to try the game.

     

    If you like healing, why would you want to forego the Holy Trinity to watch the disaster seen in WoW with tanks that could heal almost as much as a dedicated healer...all because GW2 self-healing model?

     

    Or why would I want to give up the Holy Trinity to see the raging on forums that a 45min arena fight was "wrong"? I was doing my job and it was fun.

     

    Not everyone likes healing, but the main reason why healing sucks in games is devs don't develop it beyond the healbot role. When someone asked on the WoW forums that a healer needs some more combat abilities to quest with, Blizzard seemed puzzled and asked, "Why as a healer would you want to DPS?" The reason why? They didn't even know what DPS a healer did outside instances. Millions of logs over the years, but not one for what a healer does if they even quest. Because the devs assumed anyone leveling would be a tank or DPS. In a MMORPG people do role play healers, and if it's "bring the player, not the class" it's also "bring the player and not his role" also. If quest content is one-size-fits-all, then DPS requirements need to fit all classes and roles, not force players to play what they don't role play. I'm fine in not breaking any DPS records, but I would like to do the quests within my life time, not take 9mins to down a single NPC. I mean the same DPS complain about 9min arena matches, after all.

     

    Yeah, it's one of those things to improve on with the Holy Trinity, because the situation GW2 got themselves into, is the lack of development of the healing classes, and their overall role in the trinity. I don't consider myself just a healer for example, I monitor the raid as that's my role to be prepared for the next wave of damage and to mitigate it or heal it. Blizzard didn't train me for that, I found that myself, and enjoy it because it's not the same boring pewpewpew that 1000000001 games invest nearly all their class mechanics time perfecting.

     

    It's not the healing role doesn't have a purpose, it's developers making it a vital part in game play, especially when the focus is on damage. That's not player built, that developer led. Want healing to fit, make healing worthwhile even to a mouth breather.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by stevebombsquad
    Originally posted by Fendel84M
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    No dedicated healer class, but dedicated healer and tank builds... That make a party grow in power, and leave the dps to what they like... The mindless gameplay...

     

    the game would function better with more dedicated healing power... And a more structured froup play

     

    Sorry, staring at health bars and hitting heal is pretty mindless.

    You can always tell the people that never actually played a healing class or raided with a healing class because they make statements like this.......

     

    And that is developer led. That dude thinks healing is but the healbot role.

     

    When my heal numbers are higher than DPS, that's when they notice. Because in the epeen game, higher numbers rule...and those numbers didn't come from just watching health bars and spamming one heal. I make it a point to post the healing Recount numbers to show the higher HPS and bigger numbers, not only to show DPS there's a whole other role that exist while they're backslapping themselves, but to show those numbers exist as they weren't doing their job well. Good DPS makes healing a bore; bad DPS makes it a thrill...which is counter in what the role is even about. A healer's role isn't to literally carry players through an instance while they stand in fire, it's to heal the booboos that happen.

     

    That's why GW2 went it's path, because it's simply easier to ignore the healing problems, than to fix it...like making it sexy enough that a 15 year-old would enjoy it instead of killing and standing in fire to do so.

  • zimeronzimeron Cincinnati, OHPosts: 15Member

    The problem isn't that GW2 needs a dedicated healer per se, the problem is that the "everyone can do everything" mentality makes it so people don't need to work together anymore.  In GW1, you had to find people willing to play roles if you wanted to complete hard content.  It made people work together, form guilds, and get to know one another.  There is a reason I am still part of my GW1 guild of six years.  The community play made people want to log on and hang out, making GW1's playerbase rather unique.  

    I feel that GW2 puts too much emphasis on the solo play that plagues WoW and its clones.  Either players level their toons alone in Hearts and events on out-of -the-way maps or they are playing massive zerg content where they are reduced to a number in a crowd.  Both ways are bad for community play, and many players have been alienated by this perceived betrayal of real GW1 players.  Nothing to be done about it now, the game is too far built and NCSoft is making too much money off the current model, but as a GW1 player, I am slightly disappointed by this turn of events. :<

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by zimeron

    The problem isn't that GW2 needs a dedicated healer per se, the problem is that the "everyone can do everything" mentality makes it so people don't need to work together anymore. 

    That can't be fixed if everyone is "Jack of all trades, master of none" and be everything in a team.

     

    The beauty of the Holy Trinity (and why it works) is it rewards players who specialize. More specialized the toon becomes the more a player feels rewarded, as they're sought for their specific role.

     

    In WotLK I felt wanted, needed and appreciated in ICC. I felt every bit the raid anchor, I stood smack in the middle, in reach of everyone, with a heck of a lot of responsibility. Couldn't wait to logon and find another ICC raid to heal. All because there was a specific role for me to do, and no other class could do it better.

     

    Now, since this GW2 healing model that plagues WoW, have zero interest in healing content, especially if a mage or warlock can self-heal to the point of "Why am I'm even here, again?"

     

    It devalues what specialists prefer and enjoy -- and healing is a specialty. They have fun doing the opposite of damage dealers and stoked by their own stats. It's a great feeling to heal content that is aced. Top of the world feeling.

     

    So can't have both healing and damage and expect the players will work together. It's why games like Battlefield they don't give Assault the med kit and ammo, it's either/or. If they have it all, why even be in a squad?

     

    Want teamwork? The roles have to be there, and roles that are specialized and valued.

  • EcocesEcoces Chicago, ILPosts: 879Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by orbitxo
    Originally posted by cheyane

    Actually quite a lot of utility in classes like the Engineer and support in Elementalist and Guardian are available but people don't see it or know how to utilize it in an event.

    BINGO!

    i play an engineer-so i agree 100%! doin a bit of work to have a class work for yah dosent make it a flaw.

    choosing a 'holy' class in an mmo and spamming healin to a group ...is!

    imo

     

     

     

    sure you can! then you are kicked out of a dungeon group because you don't do enough DPS and replaced by a Warrior with Zerker gear.

  • vort3xvort3x Jebem vam materPosts: 129Member
    Just one of many bad design calls in GW2 that ultimately led me to quitting the game. Too bad, it could have been such a great game, maybe even better than GW1 was...
  • IvanaIvana NisPosts: 17Member
    Talking about adding more healing without even mentioning how crap rewards are if you aren't tagging hostiles? And I'm playing the closest to traditional healer in GW2 - 1k bonus healing staff ele in wvw. Rewarding for doing ANYTHING else than dps'ing in GW2 is BS and an insult to anyone who even tries to think a bit outside of that box. The game maybe doesn't have traditional trinity, but it lacks of good rewarding system for doing anything else but high dmg.

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    Guild Wars is CORPG!

  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NomadMorlock

    There is a lot of merit in specialized roles.  They walked away from this and the end result is a crazy free for all where everyone is a hybrid and group coordination is gone.

    Worst mistake of the game.

     Worse than the living story?

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    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • NevulusNevulus Miami Beach, FLPosts: 1,288Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stormpuma21

    Meh.. Lack of thorough knowledge of all classes triggered this article and only a few here touched on it so far..

    The Engineer has a Kit (medkit) that has nothing but heal skills in the form of medpacks. In the same Kit, the Engineer has two more skills that give you buffs/boons for stats like crit and one to cure conditions. Once traited they recharge super quick and can be thrown through ground targeting.

     

    And the engineer has a healing Turret that can be used in conjunction with the medpak. (Toss the healing turret on a wall/tree/ceiling and watch it never be destroyed.) 

    As far as rezzing people, the Engineer has Elixir R that can be thrown on to Allies when they are downed to instantly revive them, amongst other healing/buffing Elixirs..

    Let's also remember that the Elixir gun has 2  AoE healing spells and combined with healing turret, you have 2 AoE healing spells that can be combo'ed into.

     

    All of those skills above can be equipped on the same row. Healing Turret/Medkit/Elixir Gun and Elixir R. Full support. Even more healing if the Engineer has the Supply Crate for it's elite, which always drops a healing turret if specced for it.

    Sounds like a dedicated healer to me, if a player wants to be, but most people don't/won't play like that but the option is there...

     

    You know what happens when I bring my eng healer into a dungeon? I get kicked before we even start.

    You know what happens when I bring my Healway spec Guardian? I get kicked or asked if I have a Warrior alt.

    You know what happens when I bring my tier 1 support ele into a dungeon? I get kicked, asked to respec, or asked to switch to my warrior alt.

     

    So yeah, you are right, there ARE other choices, unfortunately all those other choices are sub-optimal. The problem is not that they didn't abide by the holy trinity, the problem is that the game mechanics they put in place do not SUPPORT their original vision. 

     

    And what is worse is that the horrendous LFG tool (that's still in beta) condones this behavior.

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon
    I want to play a support class. I can't do that in GW2; I'm forced to play a DPS class, the third of the trinity that I loathe. This alone kills the game for me.

    <3

  • CalavryCalavry GilmorePosts: 38Member Uncommon
    Couldn't cope with the lack of trinity in dungeons so got to max level and left to play something fun.
  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon
    Like in real life where there is no army in the world where all soliders are Jack-of-all-trades, same goes for gaming. Ok, have no problem if all can somehow heal .... but I think there should be and will be always dedicated healer and tank.
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