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SotA Combat Revealed!

2

Comments

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Originally posted by underthebridge

    Originally posted by Bilgato

    A few months til the combat tests, we should unify on this if the system is not good and stay unified to put pressure on them instead of everyone complaining seperately off-site or on.  People who are primarily intrested in PvE and PvP will be the ones who matter in this (crafters don't count) and nobody will listen to a bunch of scattered complainers.  

     

    With you 100% on this.

    I doubt anyone would continue playing SotA once they find out that combat has little human skill involved, but rather is dependent on a game of chance. How fun is that? And SotA team say they are creating a game for us players??

    Well,  We need to speak up! If we sit back and do nothing, it will become another failed mmo.... We've seen it all before-- game that has promising innovative ideas but tries to reinvent the wheel too much.

     

    What we should all do is come to some general agreement on how the combat system should or should not be. There seems to at least be a consensus here that randomly dealt skills is a NO-NO... so that will be our starting point. While we may differ on smaller details, we want to keep the message clear and unified.

    Then at some point we should all gather and post our opinions on their forum, maybe on a new thread or poll or something. Unlike scattered people, they will listen to a large-scale backlash from the community. I don't know what's going on in the minds of the devs, but my thought is that they are getting mostly positive feedback from Ex-UO diehard fans and blindsighted followers who invested hundreds of dollars, so they don't have much of a clue.

     

    Good ideas, though reaching anything resembling a consensus will be tough. I think picking your battles (i.e. concentrating on NOT wanting card randomization) is a good idea. The less specific you are about what you want in its place the better, as being too specific here could undermine the effect of a unified front given the presumably widely varying views in regard to what players think should exactly happen.

    Good luck! This is kinda depressing. I am not invested, but I hate seeing a dedicated fan base get so discouraged... and there is certainly time to fix this.
  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,191Member Uncommon

    The video isn't working. Is it deck based like Wizard101? That really isn't my sort of thing, although it was okay in that game.

    I prefer more traditional combat styles either tab-target/rng or action.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by underthebridge

    I am starting to lose faith in this game.

    Richard Garriott is trying to make this game an old-school RPG, like cards being dealt in a table top RPG game.

    I don't know which tabletop RPGs  you played but I've never seen one that involved cards being dealt. I like tabletop RPG combat actually far better than twitch based systems but this SotA system does sound kind of lame. Random placement of skills? WTF?

     

  • DMKanoDMKano Gamercentral, AKPosts: 8,506Member Uncommon
    I am all for innovative ways of doing combat - but this is just ludicrous.
  • golden.radishgolden.radish beverly hills, CAPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    The video isn't working. Is it deck based like Wizard101? That really isn't my sort of thing, although it was okay in that game.

    I prefer more traditional combat styles either tab-target/rng or action.

    Try this link, Torvaldr. (The first post video didn't... work, for whatever reason)
  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by underthebridge

    I am starting to lose faith in this game.

    Richard Garriott is trying to make this game an old-school RPG, like cards being dealt in a table top RPG game.

    I don't know which tabletop RPGs  you played but I've never seen one that involved cards being dealt. I like tabletop RPG combat actually far better than twitch based systems but this SotA system does sound kind of lame. Random placement of skills? WTF?

     

    If you are into tabletop rpgs, Castle Falkenstein is a quality product that uses regular playing cards in place of dice. It's actually a pretty creative and fun system. Cool low-tech Victorian steampunk theme with great lore that is very rich in RP focus.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,191Member Uncommon

    Thanks for the link. It does look a lot like Wizard101 which like I said isn't really my thing. That kind of combat isn't horrible, just not what I like out of an rpg.

    I'm older and grew up on D&D and DIKU style gaming. To me rpg is about learning skills and becoming better or more powerful. I don't really care if those are opened up via levels, skills points, skill wheels, trait lines, etc. That stuff is all game implementation dependent. However, when I do learn a skill I expect it to be available full time, not randomly pop up. I'm not talking about unavailability due to cooldowns or situational availability. I'm talking about a skill I know being unavailable until it pops up in my deck queue. I'm talking about pre-planning skill queue availability. That is what I don't like about deck-based combat in an rpg.

    So I can't say that the system as deck-based combat looked poorly implemented. It looked fine. I can say that it doesn't appeal to me in the least and as much as I love having non-combat stuff do to, my D&D/DIKU origins love to hack-n-slash. Combat style is very important to me.

  • underthebridgeunderthebridge Los Alamos, NMPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by underthebridge

    I am starting to lose faith in this game.

    Richard Garriott is trying to make this game an old-school RPG, like cards being dealt in a table top RPG game.

    I don't know which tabletop RPGs  you played but I've never seen one that involved cards being dealt. I like tabletop RPG combat actually far better than twitch based systems but this SotA system does sound kind of lame. Random placement of skills? WTF?

     

    ??

    Maybe you should watch Magic: the gathering being played on youtube:

  • strawhat0981strawhat0981 Phoenix, AZPosts: 958Member Uncommon
    The only way I can think of talking about the combat is saying it looks weak.

    Originally posted by laokoko
    "if you want to be a game designer, you should sell your house and fund your game. Since if you won't even fund your own game, no one will".

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by underthebridge
     

    ??

    Maybe you should watch Magic: the gathering being played on youtube:

    I've seen it. That's not an RPG though.

     

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    Thanks for the link. It does look a lot like Wizard101 which like I said isn't really my thing. That kind of combat isn't horrible, just not what I like out of an rpg.

    I'm older and grew up on D&D and DIKU style gaming. To me rpg is about learning skills and becoming better or more powerful. I don't really care if those are opened up via levels, skills points, skill wheels, trait lines, etc. That stuff is all game implementation dependent. However, when I do learn a skill I expect it to be available full time, not randomly pop up. I'm not talking about unavailability due to cooldowns or situational availability. I'm talking about a skill I know being unavailable until it pops up in my deck queue. I'm talking about pre-planning skill queue availability. That is what I don't like about deck-based combat in an rpg.

    So I can't say that the system as deck-based combat looked poorly implemented. It looked fine. I can say that it doesn't appeal to me in the least and as much as I love having non-combat stuff do to, my D&D/DIKU origins love to hack-n-slash. Combat style is very important to me.

    Agreed. Less subjectively, I just can't see the upside in making a mini-game out of choosing a skill to use. It provides nothing mechanically that enhances gameplay, at least on paper.

    Now, if they are planning on building other gameplay systems around said mechanic that somehow make it relevant and/or engaging, there is a possibility it could work, I suppose. I just can't imagine what they would be...

  • underthebridgeunderthebridge Los Alamos, NMPosts: 7Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by underthebridge
     

    ??

    Maybe you should watch Magic: the gathering being played on youtube:

    I've seen it. That's not an RPG though.

     

    OK yes technically you're right Magic is not an RPG,  whatever it doesn't matter... you get what I'm saying.

    Copying elements from a table card game onto a 3d computer game is not necessarily a good idea.

  • MandibleMandible Ridgefield, CTPosts: 14Member
    Can't find this combat video anywhere. All these links are to the 6 month progress video and I don't see any card game. ...... What am I missing here ? Can't even search YouTube and find it. 
  • JupstoJupsto englandPosts: 2,087Member

    dat awful snailspace autoattack combat system.

    still I won't write it off completely until its done.

    My blog: image

  • golden.radishgolden.radish beverly hills, CAPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by Mandible
    Can't find this combat video anywhere. All these links are to the 6 month progress video and I don't see any card game. ...... What am I missing here ? Can't even search YouTube and find it. 

    As per the first post in this thread, the video demonstrating the Random Hotkey Combat UI / Deck mechanic is here.

    Also, as a bonus, for those interested in reading Starr Longs (exec producer for SotA) opinion of RMT/pay2win, you can check that out here.

  • InsaneMembraneInsaneMembrane SydneyPosts: 130Member
    Originally posted by golden.radish
    Originally posted by Mandible
    Can't find this combat video anywhere. All these links are to the 6 month progress video and I don't see any card game. ...... What am I missing here ? Can't even search YouTube and find it. 

    As per the first post in this thread, the video demonstrating the Random Hotkey Combat UI / Deck mechanic is here.

    Also, as a bonus, for those interested in reading Starr Longs (exec producer for SotA) opinion of RMT/pay2win, you can check that out here.

    As for Darkstarr's opinion on "pay to win" it is so very clear he was trolling that idiot in chat. Right to the point the guy in chat was rage quitting!  LAWL. 

    Darkstarr is my hero for doing that and I'd love to see more of it, but this is totally what it causes. Backlash and silliness from people like Golden Rash here.

    My only comment here is to @Darkstarr: Who's the more foolish, the fool or the fool who follows him?

    Let the trolls do the trolling :P

     

     

  • SawlstoneSawlstone barrie, ONPosts: 301Member
    This is terrible. 
  • doragon86doragon86 Boston, MAPosts: 589Member
    Hmm... until I see it fleshed out completely, I'll hold on to my comments. 

    "For the Angel of Death spread his wings on the blast,
    And breathed in the face of the foe as he passed:
    And the eyes of the sleepers waxed deadly and chill,
    And their hearts but once heaved, and for ever grew still!"
    ~Lord George Gordon Byron

  • RebelScum99RebelScum99 Mesa, AZPosts: 1,090Member
    Originally posted by golden.radish

     

    In particular, note that the combat UI will feature a randomized placement of skills, rather than the traditional user defined placement of skills, on the combat hotbar.

     

    Holy shit, that sounds absolutely fucking terrible.  Surely there is more to it than that.  I mean, is that how they are going to make combat more difficult?  Why not just blindfold us as well?  Only allow us to use our feet on the keyboard instead of our hands?   

    Since I can't actually see the video, I have to assume there is more to it than that.  Because if that is how this combat system actually works...well, Garriott should have just stayed in outer space.  

     

  • InsaneMembraneInsaneMembrane SydneyPosts: 130Member
    Originally posted by RebelScum99
    Originally posted by golden.radish

     

    In particular, note that the combat UI will feature a randomized placement of skills, rather than the traditional user defined placement of skills, on the combat hotbar.

     

    Holy shit, that sounds absolutely fucking terrible.  Surely there is more to it than that.  I mean, is that how they are going to make combat more difficult?  Why not just blindfold us as well?  Only allow us to use our feet on the keyboard instead of our hands?   

    Since I can't actually see the video, I have to assume there is more to it than that.  Because if that is how this combat system actually works...well, Garriott should have just stayed in outer space.  

     

    Yeah, actually there will be much more to it than that. You know, even us early KS pledge members do not yet have access to test the combat system in the RCs yet, so speaking of it as broken at this stage is very misinformed almost to the point of brain death.

     

     

  • golden.radishgolden.radish beverly hills, CAPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by RebelScum99

    Holy dung, that sounds absolutely farming terrible.  Surely there is more to it than that.  I mean, is that how they are going to make combat more difficult?  Why not just blindfold us as well?  Only allow us to use our feet on the keyboard instead of our hands?   

    Since I can't actually see the video, I have to assume there is more to it than that.  Because if that is how this combat system actually works...well, Garriott should have just stayed in outer space.  

    In their words, this will make combat more random.  The outcome of every fight will be unpredictable, so this will keep players on their toes.  Chris Spears calls it "Plate spinning" and it's a good thing, from their perspective.  They have also admitted that the current UI keeps the focus on the randomly updating hotbars, rather than combat.  Their solution to date is that they will add primary/bright/bold colors to the backgrounds of the skills, to make them stand out more.  I'm sure you can see where that would end up, ultimately.

    How making direct player conflict success or failure purely a matter of random luck is in any way working towards a "spiritual successor to UO", I will never know.

    The video is the only demonstration they've shown of the combat UI part of the larger combat system.  It is also the only part of the system they've confirmed will not be changing unless the entire system is scrapped after March, when backers will get their hands on the system in-game, for the first time.  They have backup plans, but when you start to dig into the system, it's apparent they feel this is the one innovation that will make the game great.  That is, there are tendrils from this current combat design that extend into the entire game.  As with many design decisions, these systems rarely operate in isolation.

    I feel it important to point out that from April 1 to October 31 is one hundred and forty eight working days. It doesn't seem reasonable that they can design, test, implement, polish and balance a new, fun, challenging and innovative holistic combat solution, including one that handles scenarios, direct player conflict, guild conflict, wilderness PvE, solo combat, group combat and multi-group combat, within that time frame.

    I'm sure they will be able to put something in, but it sure won't be as polished compared to something they would have worked on for triple that time.  To that end, they've go two outcomes for this situation. 1) they put in what they have and reduce their target demographic.  2) they take out what they have and put in an inferior solution due to time constraints.

    I think when you're consciously setting yourself up to fail, you need to take a step back and re-assess your overall design goals.  The larger problem, in addition to combat design issues, is that there are currently no publicly released design goals for the economy, travel, death, player conflict, rmt, gold sinks, harvesting, skill caps, or any of the stretch goals from kickstarter.  Those specific design goals are what will impact players most in their day to day play, and there isn't even a hint of where they expect those goals to be.

    They're selling items on their store, today, without clearly identifying why those items may be of value.  An example:  They're selling housing, but there's no details regarding travel.  If you can mark & recall in-hex, like you might expect from a spiritual successor of UO, then where your house is has no meaning.  No details.  When asked directly, they ignore the questions or say "it's not designed yet".  If it's not designed 9 months before launch, when WILL it be designed?

    Housing is treated with such value because originally, you needed a house to have a vendor.  Now, apparently, you can have a vendor without a house, maybe?  Then to get a tax-free vendor, you need to pay more.  Well, here's the thing everyone is glossing over:  Portalarium has provided exactly zero information regarding tax/fee rates, structures, guidelines or design goals for housing or vendors.  And yet, without that context, those items are for sale.

    They're selling indestructible harvesting tools, and yet we know nothing of harvesting, nor if those tools will be of value one week after launch.  They could be game-breaking, or useless, and yet they're for sale without any context.

    Another example: They've mentioned there will be direct player conflict, but again, no details regarding travel.  Can you recall out of a fight?  Will recall appear randomly?  No details.  When asked directly, again, the question is either ignored or responded to with "it's not designed yet". 

    They haven't even described when and where, in the open world, direct player conflict will occur.  At the start of the project, during Kickstarter, direct player conflict was originally presented as being ever present, with corridors of safety and low-reward for those unwilling to participate.  Since then, it's change to consensual only, with hints that end-game resources for all crafting will be PvP only.  And yet, when asked to elaborate on these specific points, no details are forthcoming.

    It's more than a little frustrating.

  • Colt47Colt47 Naperville, ILPosts: 310Member Uncommon

    One aspect to note about the combat is that there is no active dodging in the presentation.  It looks like the player runs up to a monster, engages it, and utilizes moves granted by the cards presented to him on the action bar.  So in essence, the tension from fighting isn't going to be "can I dodge X attack" to rather "will I draw the right move this encounter".  

    The system feels like it is putting the randomness in the wrong place.  In battle, people don't randomly choose some attack followed by some other attack, they use the ones that they know will work.  If he wants to make the game have some level of randomness, it should probably sit on the AI's shoulders, with enemies trying different tactics if one tactic fails.   It would add a lot more tension having to worry if the enemy has picked some tactic that your current character is ill equipped to counter, imo.

  • golden.radishgolden.radish beverly hills, CAPosts: 12Member

    When this combat mechanic was first described, your point, Colt47, was brought up.  Many contributors in the SotA official forum community felt their design would put randomness in the wrong place, and there were better choices available.

    Constructively, many viable alternative mechanics that create completely randomized combat were suggested, including extremely detailed implementation information.  Many required the user to pay attention to the enemy and react appropriately.  Many required the user to plan ahead for combat.  Many included a restricted, limited or dynamic skill set available in combat.

    None of the community suggested alternatives relied solely on a random UI to achieve unpredictable combat.

    These constructive suggestions were all rejected or ignored.  All those threads are on the official forums to read, today.

  • InsaneMembraneInsaneMembrane SydneyPosts: 130Member
    Originally posted by golden.radish

     

    These constructive suggestions were all rejected or ignored.  All those threads are on the official forums to read, today.

     

    Oh yeah? Link me to a dev comment where it said the community suggestions are rejected, cos I will blog about it if they have done that. But I haven't seen that going around.

     

  • golden.radishgolden.radish beverly hills, CAPosts: 12Member
    Originally posted by InsaneMembrane
    Originally posted by golden.radish

    These constructive suggestions were all rejected or ignored.  All those threads are on the official forums to read, today.

     Oh yeah? Link me to a dev comment where it said the community suggestions are rejected, cos I will blog about it if they have done that. But I haven't seen that going around.

    Just a few of the official forum threads where this has happened, many times: (in one thread more than 15 suggestions were offered and then rejected outright, or ignored entirely with no response.)

    Combat, Magic, Skills, Advancement (MEGA POST)

    Let's talk about combat!

    Starr Long Discusses Chaotic Aspects of SOTA Combat

    Combat, Magic, Skills - No UI, No 'Deck' Proposal

    Reply to Chris's Combat Description

    ---

    happy reading.

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