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SWTOR Cartel Market Makes 139 Million USD in 2013

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  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jpnz
    Originally posted by killion81
     

    Only it's selling pixels, not tangible items, that you can access as long as EA says you can.  I don't know if it makes me more sad that there are this many people willing to waste money in such a way or that I could never be the one to fleece people of millions in this way because I would feel terrible about myself.  Life would be so much easier with more flexible morals.

    This makes no sense in the current digital age.

    Buying something digital shouldn't be something to be afraid of.

    I mean.. jeez... It is 2014, not 1999.

     

    The consumer should always be concerned about a purchase that doesn't result in their ownership of something.  Even with digital media, assuming no DRM, the consumer owns a digital copy that they can do with as they please.  They can put it on physical media, make multiple copies of it, back it up, store it in cloud storage, etc.  However, you receive no ownership with pixels purchased in an MMORPG, even though it mimics a "real" transaction.  The company that owns the MMORPG can, at any time, simply say that you no longer own that item, completely remove your access to their services or completely stop providing service resulting in your loss of purchased digital items.

     

    That being said, part of the reason I prefer a sub model is because it's transparent in what it provides.  You have access to this service as long as you choose to pay the monthly sub fee.  If you stop paying, you no longer have access.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser

    Even if JESUS himself appears and tell him that he still won't believe it.

    Denial keeps the hate alive.

     Volumes, they have been spoken.

    And yet you are in denial.

    There comes a time when you just have to accept that some people want the world to be the way they see it and are not looking to know anything. They talk to tell others, not because they're interested in hearing anything in return. He wants SWTOR to be failing, so it's going to be failing. He wants ESO to be bad, so it's going to be bad.

  • Whiskey_SamWhiskey_Sam Lynchburg, VAPosts: 294Member Uncommon

    Revenue is only half the equation.  What are its costs?  Did it turn a profit?  If so, did that profit meet their goal?  Generating revenues is a good first step, but you have to do more than that to be successful.  

    ___________________________
    Have flask; will travel.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    I know, right?

    I find myself in an odd position in threads like this.  On the one hand, I don't particularly like SWToR.  I don't think it's a very good game.  However, looking at the world that exists outside my head, there are a LOT of people playing the game.  It obviously offers something that players want, such that they would rather play SWToR than whatever else they can do.  I also find their F2P system restrictive.  Not so much that if I found the game fun to play it would cause me to stop playing, but I can see how only 2 action slot bars is a pretty blatant attempt at getting everyone who plays the game to spend $5.  This isn't wrong, mind you, but it does seem a bit heavy handed.  Running parallel to this thought is that, again, a LOT of people are playing the game, and apparently a LOT of people are giving money to SWToR.  It must be providing value to those players such that they aren't playing other games or engaging in other activities and spending money elsewhere.  Their F2P model works, and works well.  

    So the position I find myself in is that I really don't like the game, but I'm in the position of a game defender because the people who say the game is bad, is crashing or is somehow going to corrupt the genre just don't make sense.  If someone says they don't like the game, and they have a list of reasons, that makes sense.  To say the game is objectively bad when it so obviously serves the wants of so many consumers does not make sense.  I've been posting a picture of a dog wearing a tie on a computer with the caption, "I have no idea what I am doing" and I think this is why.  I feel compelled to defend a game I don't like because the arguments being used are so bad.

    Also, I have a golden retriever and she often doesn't look like she knows what she's doing, or why she's doing it so I find the picture amusing. 

    I know how you feel.  Not on this particular game, since I happen to quite enjoy the class stories in TOR. (Rest of the game, no comment.)  But a bad argument is a bad argument, whether you agree with some of the sentiments behind it or not, and it would be a beautiful thing if people stopped trying to pretend that whether they like a game and whether it's successful are two completely unrelated issues.  I don't like WoW, not even a little bit, but I don't try to pretend it is objectively bad just because it doesn't cater to my tastes.

    Originally posted by killion81

    Actually, if you simply define it as "providing content", it doesn't really matter how diverse the content is.  The diversity of content will likely expand the target market of content consumers, but in the end it's all content being created for consumption.  Watching 4 hours of television isn't much different than playing an MMORPG for 4 hours as far as the end result (ideally entertainment).

    When comparing systems, it helps to look at all of what is being offered, not cherry pick elements to suit the argument.  Just because somebody might be willing to pay X for access to thousands of hours of different movies and tv shows, that doesn't indicate a willingness to pay the same amount for access to a single tv show, even if it is a tv show that has hundreds of hours worth of content.  I always sub to games I play, I go with the same philosophy as you, it's about hours worth of value rather than diversity, but I recognize that not everyone thinks that way.

    Originally posted by DamonVile

    There comes a time when you just have to accept that some people want the world to be the way they see it and are not looking to know anything. They talk to tell others, not because they're interested in hearing anything in return. He wants SWTOR to be failing, so it's going to be failing. He wants ESO to be bad, so it's going to be bad.

    Perception is reality, even when it isn't.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • bobdole1979bobdole1979 beverly hills, CAPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by Whiskey_Sam

    Revenue is only half the equation.  What are its costs?  Did it turn a profit?  If so, did that profit meet their goal?  Generating revenues is a good first step, but you have to do more than that to be successful.  

    This is EA.  If SWTOR didn't turn a profit it would have been shut down.  

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,069Member Uncommon

    Data from some players - multiplied by some number that matches total players worldwide.

    Now they talk about working with publishers but EA made it clear they don't give out the data when Neilsen came out with some numbers.

    So its their guess - which is fine. It would be good if they said what the margin of error was of course.

     

    If you assume it is accurate then last year SWTOR generated c. 20% of EA's F2P revenue. And as their data also tells them that it is substantially a subscription game then it must have had at least $139M in sub revenue. At least.

    So 750k subs on average through last year.

    And combining the two means it made more money than what EA had targeted in SWTORs first year. (extrapolating what EA's then CEO JR said post launch).  Were are the Makeb size content drops every 4-6 weeks; were are the dancing girls.

     

    Maybe its a guess.  The number of subs isn't for sure based on what EA actually reported.

     

    If someone had said this was based on XFire data then there would have been uproar about how inaccurate it was. I never thought that but I always recognised that iXFire was nothing more than a guess with big margins of error. This data should be treated no differently.

  • stevebombsquadstevebombsquad Orlando, FLPosts: 842Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by gervaise1

    Data from some players - multiplied by some number that matches total players worldwide.

    Now they talk about working with publishers but EA made it clear they don't give out the data when Neilsen came out with some numbers.

    So its their guess - which is fine. It would be good if they said what the margin of error was of course.

     

    If you assume it is accurate then last year SWTOR generated c. 20% of EA's F2P revenue. And as their data also tells them that it is substantially a subscription game then it must have had at least $139M in sub revenue. At least.

    So 750k subs on average through last year.

    And combining the two means it made more money than what EA had targeted in SWTORs first year. (extrapolating what EA's then CEO JR said post launch).  Were are the Makeb size content drops every 4-6 weeks; were are the dancing girls.

     

    Maybe its a guess.  The number of subs isn't for sure based on what EA actually reported.

     

    If someone had said this was based on XFire data then there would have been uproar about how inaccurate it was. I never thought that but I always recognised that iXFire was nothing more than a guess with big margins of error. This data should be treated no differently.

    How do Xfire's numbers account for a large margin of error? Their numbers are the actual number of players or hours logged on that game from people with the client installed. If you were to say population sizes calculated by Xfire data then you would be right.

    James T. Kirk: All she's got isn't good enough! What else ya got?

  • DaRoamerDaRoamer Toronto, ONPosts: 249Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    EA themselves lists SWTOR and TWO FIFA games together in their last quarterly report as having the earnings on this chart. Not just SWTOR, all three games.

    Did you miss the "gets data directly from publishers" part? LOL 

     Sniped my post for what YOU clearly missed.

    EA is telling their OWN investors the lie then? Fanboys, see what they want to see if they think that a company is going to give an outside service real information while telling their own investors AND the FCC something else.

    BTW, lying to the FCC would have serious consequences. Reality, it isn't your thing.

    Where is the lie again?

  • adam_noxadam_nox hays, KSPosts: 2,036Member Uncommon

    These numbers are unofficial estimates based on a flawed methodology.  That's just a fact, accept it or don't doesn't matter to me.  Clearly it indicates an inflated number, but truthfully we could accept the possibility that the numbers are higher.

     

    However, this doesn't pass the smell test.  Not even remotely.  Even if the game had 500k active players, which is a stretch, it puts the amount spent per year at 278 dollars as an average.   The implications of which are simply the stuff of fantasy.  It's preposterous to even entertain that as a possibility, and if you don't agree we simply have no grounds on which to discuss the issue further.

     

    What's most likely is that they took the average spent per player who participated in their data, which would likely be mostly people who paid, not freebies, and then looked up EA's most recent estimate of active players, which is a number they could just pull out of their ass because it's a f2p game and anyone with a username and password can be counted, and used simple multiplication to come up with a number that's like 100x bigger than reality.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by Gamer79

    So after reading some of these comments it's clear haters of this game are in major desperation mode.  

     There are a few of accusing EA of lying to investors or shareholders, which is a felony of course they have zero proof of this.  

    Then they  turn around and try to explain how Swtor is actually doing again with zero facts, links or information to back anything up.   

    If your going to accuse a company of a felony to save a game you hate and you have some blind impression it's failing then at least try and post a link to back it up.  When you don't all you do is worsen the haters already depleted credabilty.   

    To sum it up your defense is you can't trust EA/bio but we are supposed to trust a person who Hates a Video Game!  

    Maybe they can't find links to EALouse's pre-release post anymore.  Because remember, it isn't about how the game is doing now, it's about how it was doing before the cash shop was added.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by Gamer79
    Originally posted by adam_nox

    These numbers are unofficial estimates based on a flawed methodology.  That's just a fact, accept it or don't doesn't matter to me.  Clearly it indicates an inflated number, but truthfully we could accept the possibility that the numbers are higher.

     

    However, this doesn't pass the smell test.  Not even remotely.  Even if the game had 500k active players, which is a stretch, it puts the amount spent per year at 278 dollars as an average.   The implications of which are simply the stuff of fantasy.  It's preposterous to even entertain that as a possibility, and if you don't agree we simply have no grounds on which to discuss the issue further.

     

    What's most likely is that they took the average spent per player who participated in their data, which would likely be mostly people who paid, not freebies, and then looked up EA's most recent estimate of active players, which is a number they could just pull out of their ass because it's a f2p game and anyone with a username and password can be counted, and used simple multiplication to come up with a number that's like 100x bigger than reality.

    And just to make sure you are not living in some fantasy world full of video game hate you have some links, facts to back up your fairy tale story right?

    You mean passing grade school maths?

    http://cnx.org/content/m32627/1.4/

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • DaRoamerDaRoamer Toronto, ONPosts: 249Member
    Originally posted by RefMinor
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    What if I told you they are making an additional $90M a year on subscriptions from box sales and that shows that there are many, many people who are very happy with the game and while some of that could be attributed to mind control on the part of EA, the majority of it would have to be attributed to the perceived quality of the game on the part of the game's players? 

    *gasp*

     

    I know, right?

     

    I find myself in an odd position in threads like this.  On the one hand, I don't particularly like SWToR.  I don't think it's a very good game.  However, looking at the world that exists outside my head, there are a LOT of people playing the game.  It obviously offers something that players want, such that they would rather play SWToR than whatever else they can do.  I also find their F2P system restrictive.  Not so much that if I found the game fun to play it would cause me to stop playing, but I can see how only 2 action slot bars is a pretty blatant attempt at getting everyone who plays the game to spend $5.  This isn't wrong, mind you, but it does seem a bit heavy handed.  Running parallel to this thought is that, again, a LOT of people are playing the game, and apparently a LOT of people are giving money to SWToR.  It must be providing value to those players such that they aren't playing other games or engaging in other activities and spending money elsewhere.  Their F2P model works, and works well. 

     

    So the position I find myself in is that I really don't like the game, but I'm in the position of a game defender because the people who say the game is bad, is crashing or is somehow going to corrupt the genre just don't make sense.  If someone says they don't like the game, and they have a list of reasons, that makes sense.  To say the game is objectively bad when it so obviously serves the wants of so many consumers does not make sense.  I've been posting a picture of a dog wearing a tie on a computer with the caption, "I have no idea what I am doing" and I think this is why.  I feel compelled to defend a game I don't like because the arguments being used are so bad.

    Also, I have a golden retriever and she often doesn't look like she knows what she's doing, or why she's doing it so I find the picture amusing.

     

    This is pretty much my view, the game is boring to me, but it seems to be making money now despite crashing badly at launch.

    Personally I don't have a beef with the F2P system, if you aren't willing to put in $5 to a game after you have played to level 15 (approx where you need more than 2 bars) then you get no sympathy from me, you are a cheapskate and deserve a substandard experience. If you do like it then $20 odd on a few unlocks will give you a decent amount of options. If you are still playing and want more raids and PvP matches than you are given for free then you can buy a pass or subscribe. Personally I would rather see that than a game where a few whales keep it totally free for others and get a big advantage for doing so.

    Huh?  You think you have more than 24 skills at level 15?  On my 55 smuggler I have maybe 5 skills that don't fit on my 2 main bars.  My latest character is an Agent at level 35 and he has space on both bars still.  You can buy a quickbar unlock on the GTN for around 100k which you'll be able to afford by the time you'd need it.  Of course, if you like the game enough to get into your 40s then I don't think spending $5 is unreasonable.

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser

    Even if JESUS himself appears and tell him that he still won't believe it.

    Denial keeps the hate alive.

     Volumes, they have been spoken.

    And yet you are in denial.

     No appearance by Thor, Cthulhu or the spaghetti monster will change the idea that EAs own revenue report is worth less than that of an independent company that uses averages to come to conclusions. Their reports are skewed enough to hide the truth as it is.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    EA themselves lists SWTOR and TWO FIFA games together in their last quarterly report as having the earnings on this chart. Not just SWTOR, all three games.

    Did you miss the "gets data directly from publishers" part? LOL 

     Sniped my post for what YOU clearly missed.

    EA is telling their OWN investors the lie then? Fanboys, see what they want to see if they think that a company is going to give an outside service real information while telling their own investors AND the FCC something else.

    BTW, lying to the FCC would have serious consequences. Reality, it isn't your thing.

    Where is the lie again?

     You tell me, EA listed 2 other games with SWTOR as having earned that amount, the outside source that uses averages to obtain numbers is stating it was just SWTOR. Only one can be right, or both wrong...........both cannot be right.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • DaRoamerDaRoamer Toronto, ONPosts: 249Member
    Originally posted by adam_nox

    These numbers are unofficial estimates based on a flawed methodology.  That's just a fact, accept it or don't doesn't matter to me.  Clearly it indicates an inflated number, but truthfully we could accept the possibility that the numbers are higher.

     

    However, this doesn't pass the smell test.  Not even remotely.  Even if the game had 500k active players, which is a stretch, it puts the amount spent per year at 278 dollars as an average.   The implications of which are simply the stuff of fantasy.  It's preposterous to even entertain that as a possibility, and if you don't agree we simply have no grounds on which to discuss the issue further.

     

    What's most likely is that they took the average spent per player who participated in their data, which would likely be mostly people who paid, not freebies, and then looked up EA's most recent estimate of active players, which is a number they could just pull out of their ass because it's a f2p game and anyone with a username and password can be counted, and used simple multiplication to come up with a number that's like 100x bigger than reality.

    The game has well more than 500k active players, it's over 1 million unique active players and over 10 million accounts as revealed by one of the devs at a recent Cantina tour event.  I recently counted most of the players on my server and estimated that that sunday afternoon there were approx 100k people online concurrently across 17 servers.

    EDIT:  The statement from Eric was "over 10 million play occasionally, while over 1 million play per month"

  • DaRoamerDaRoamer Toronto, ONPosts: 249Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by DaRoamer
    EA themselves lists SWTOR and TWO FIFA games together in their last quarterly report as having the earnings on this chart. Not just SWTOR, all three games.

    Did you miss the "gets data directly from publishers" part? LOL 

     Sniped my post for what YOU clearly missed.

    EA is telling their OWN investors the lie then? Fanboys, see what they want to see if they think that a company is going to give an outside service real information while telling their own investors AND the FCC something else.

    BTW, lying to the FCC would have serious consequences. Reality, it isn't your thing.

    Where is the lie again?

     You tell me, EA listed 2 other games with SWTOR as having earned that amount, the outside source that uses averages to obtain numbers is stating it was just SWTOR. Only one can be right, or both wrong...........both cannot be right.

    They haven't even posted numbers for FY14 Q3 yet (Oct-Dec 2013).  Are you talking about Q2 numbers which are only for July, Aug and Sept?

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DaRoamer

    They haven't even posted numbers for FY14 Q3 yet (Oct-Dec 2013).  Are you talking about Q2 numbers which are only for July, Aug and Sept?

     Ugh, Q2 is not July, Aug and Sept. That is Q3, and yes. Q3 lists all three games at that revenue point. And no, SWTOR did not see such a dramatic increase in revenue that it suddenly made the same amount as the 2 FIFA games which were top sellers, with the Online version being massively popular in the digital sales department so much so they mentioned it in the Q2 report on its own.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    superdata uses calendar year not the companies fiscal year to post it's numbers. It makes it easier to compare multiple companies when all numbers are within the same time span.
  • DaRoamerDaRoamer Toronto, ONPosts: 249Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by DaRoamer

    They haven't even posted numbers for FY14 Q3 yet (Oct-Dec 2013).  Are you talking about Q2 numbers which are only for July, Aug and Sept?

     Ugh, Q2 is not July, Aug and Sept. That is Q3, and yes. Q3 lists all three games at that revenue point. And no, SWTOR did not see such a dramatic increase in revenue that it suddenly made the same amount as the 2 FIFA games which were top sellers, with the Online version being massively popular in the digital sales department so much so they mentioned it in the Q2 report on its own.

    No, you have no clue what you're talking about.  EA's fiscal year runs from April to March, not Jan to Dec.  The reports they give are for 3 months at a time, not for year to date.  The last report they gave was for Q2 FY14 Financial Results which, as it says in the report contains "financial results for its second fiscal quarter ended September 30, 2013."  The report for the 3rd quarter will be at the end of the month and will be for Oct, Nov and Dec.

  • daltaniousdaltanious waPosts: 2,144Member Uncommon
    Im absolutely pro sub model. But I'm against to pay for something with sub model. Have happend from time to time, but very, very rarely. With so called free games at the end one pays more to be able to decently play then would for sub. And not to mention quality of sub games is tenfold of free. Big exception is Gw2, but it is not free. 
  • bobdole1979bobdole1979 beverly hills, CAPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by DaRoamer

    They haven't even posted numbers for FY14 Q3 yet (Oct-Dec 2013).  Are you talking about Q2 numbers which are only for July, Aug and Sept?

     Ugh, Q2 is not July, Aug and Sept. That is Q3, and yes. Q3 lists all three games at that revenue point. And no, SWTOR did not see such a dramatic increase in revenue that it suddenly made the same amount as the 2 FIFA games which were top sellers, with the Online version being massively popular in the digital sales department so much so they mentioned it in the Q2 report on its own.

    why does SWTOR's success offend you?

  • DoogiehowserDoogiehowser ParisPosts: 1,873Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Doogiehowser

    Even if JESUS himself appears and tell him that he still won't believe it.

    Denial keeps the hate alive.

     Volumes, they have been spoken.

    And yet you are in denial.

     No appearance by Thor, Cthulhu or the spaghetti monster will change the idea that EAs own revenue report is worth less than that of an independent company that uses averages to come to conclusions. Their reports are skewed enough to hide the truth as it is.

    And we should just take your word for it...right? image

    "The problem is that the hardcore folks always want the same thing: 'We want exactly what you gave us before, but it has to be completely different.'
    -Jesse Schell

    "Online gamers are the most ludicrously entitled beings since Caligula made his horse a senator, and at least the horse never said anything stupid."
    -Luke McKinney

    image

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon
    So this means we can get more class stories right? Looks like they have the money for it.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • catlanacatlana Houston, TXPosts: 1,677Member

    The grasping at numbers has gotten silly. If you want to read EA earnings report go to http://files.shareholder.com/downloads/ERTS/2911265146x0x701115/ae249d1a-3e9e-48fe-b6b4-ddd979f230d0/Q2FY14_EarningsSlides.pdf

    EA's extra content which is what we are discussing was $127 million for the quarter and $713 million for the trailing 12 months. The SWToR being $139 million for the trailing 12 months makes up a little less than 19.5%. We just did not know the percentage before. The revenue is easily there to cover the number.

     

    Edit: The subs number was $62 million for the quarter with $393 million for the trailing 12 months. What percentage is SWToR is what we do not know.

  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Calgary, ABPosts: 2,156Member

    There's a lawsuit against EA for toying with investers on the BF4 launch and "success", BF4 is rapidly losing active players so things needs to get fixed with that game quickly.

    image
    image

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