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I rarely respond to articles like this, but I felt it would be a good excuse to get my current feelings about MMOs off my chest. The premise of the article is only half correct. MMOs have gotten more boring in the recent years, but not because game devs have gotten worse, but mainly because MMO players are some of the whiniest people on planet Earth. No game is good enough, and players demand the world. It is impossible to make most MMO players happy, in any way. Everything is a WoW clone, or a cash grab, or "name reason #100 while this game suck and will be F2P in a month". Seriously, it is not the game, it's you.
Does not matter if newer MMOs are better built, has more content, and are overall better games. Let's pretend that EQ, UO, and Vanilla WoW were magical. Let's forget the reason why most of us did random things in those game; because there was nothing else to do. There were not better communities, just people who were bored, because there was nothing to do in those games. Seriously, vanilla WoW, for most people, was doing UBRS over and over again or the same BGs for days. Maybe a few tribute run in DM for shits and giggles in between sitting on top of Org bank running in circles. That is why the best MMO stories are not about playing the game, but random shit that happened with the people around us in the game.
There was plenty of bitching back then too, but people actually were excited when things changed. There is a reason patches from 1.6 to 1.13 were nothing but class balancing in WoW. Back then, people eagerly awaited to see how x class would change, and then blew up the forums about it. Did people say the game was DOOOOOOMMMED!!!, not really. If you had a similar thing happened today, it would lead to a jihad, with people going "See, I told you this game was dumpster trash, F2P in a week". Seriously, my problem with MMOs are not the games, but the people. Most players, no matter how good they are, suck.
Let's look at the Wildstar whole bruhaha over breast size. First, it was people bitching they were too large. Then the dev were like, ok we can change that. Then it people bitching that it was just caving to "feminazi" and were terrible people for doing it. Let's remind are self, this entire conversation is about the size of fictional characters breast. Not game play concerns or balancing issues, BREAST SIZE.
Then you hear the other crap line "They just should have added in sliders." This sounds like a reasonable request, but really, who the fuck cares. 99% of people would barely even adjust them. Let's not forget that art style is important, because random person X really wants to make a 300 pound Chua just as a joke, and will never actually play them. No, they just want to option to do it, even if they will never probably use it. Please dev, spend count hours and money reworking the game, so I can have a feature I will seriously never use in a meaningful way. Most people don't care about it, and it just messes with how the art style of the game is supposed to look. While we are at it, let's petition Nintendo to shave Mario stache and force him to lose 30 pounds, because it just promote the negative stereotype of Italian plumbers, or at least give us the option to do it in game. I mean, dev should be giving everyone options that are stupid and in no way affect game play.
While I agree a lot of MMOs have come out being not ready for prime time, that does not make them really any different from games in the past. One of the strengths of MMOs is that they can always be changed, updated, and improved on. They don't have to start out as the "greatest game ever", just a game with an actual direction. For all of the comments of "look at SWTOR", from what I hear most people think the game is in a much better spot today than launch. There are more things to do and it plays a lot better. Some complain about the monetary changes since going F2P, but that is an entirely separate issue. There are true dumpster game, like Scarlet Blade or other game made just to make money, but anyone with an IQ of 10 or a non prepubescent boy will notice within 10 seconds of seeing an ad for it.
Long story short, it is not that MMOs have gotten more boring, but MMO players have become nothing more than a group of self-entitled whiners, demanding way more than any game dev team can do. I will bet money right now, by the end of the year, people will be doing nothing about how EQ:N and Star Citizen are dumpster game. They seem great right now because you don't know anything about them. There no real game play footage and all you have to go off of is the concept of the game. When players' illusion of what the game is meets the actual reality of what the game is, this has been the normal reaction for the last 10 major MMOs. Sadly, these games are not going to get any better treatment, no matter how good they actually are.
Originally posted by Frigiddeath Long story short, it is not that MMOs have gotten more boring, but MMO players have become nothing more than a group of self-entitled whiners.
This is true, the amount of people complaining and placing every single person into the same group "self-entitled" has increased 1000 fold over the last few years.
I don't play original side scrolling jumpers like "super Mario" for a reason, the genre grew.
I don't play original side scrolling shooters like "galaga" because the genre grew.
I don't play "GTA 1" for a reason, that genre is dead and grew into something amazing, and keeps evolving.
Know the difference between "Tomb Raider 1" and the latest? 20 years of gaming PROGRESS.
The MMO genre is stagnant and to dare claim that its players want the same thing over and over and over with no innovation is worthy of a ban inducing insult and using a Glenn Beck style "self-entitled" crap shows you to be petty, as if asking for something new from a genre of games makes a person self-entitled.........more like self AWARE and not having the HIVE MINDSET of shut up, bend over and like it.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by lizardbones Limited slip differentials exist in pretty much all cars
Off topic, but this is a grossly inaccurate statement. They typically only exist vehicles designed for high performance or off-road capability, and sometimes not even those.
Take away WoW, and maybe EVE, and the picture is vastly different. MMOs have never been mainstream, and never will be. The genre doesn't rise and fall. It just smoulders and sometimes sparks.
Originally posted by Ren4112914 Originally posted by lizardbones Limited slip differentials exist in pretty much all cars
I can live with being wrong about that.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by JJ82 Originally posted by Frigiddeath Long story short, it is not that MMOs have gotten more boring, but MMO players have become nothing more than a group of self-entitled whiners.
Oh please. The genre has expanded by leaps and bounds, and is FAR from stagnant. Games today are far more complex than they've ever been, yet people like you who clamor for something different immediately balk as soon as it shows up, nit-picking every single little thing, all while pining for the days of yore (where games were laggy, grindy, and ridiculously time-consuming).
You're a part of the hive mindset all right, just too oblivious & drunk on kool-aid to realize it. Ah well, at least wool is comfortable, eh?
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
So let me get this straight: It's greedy to want to keep the money you've earned, but it's NOT greedy to want to take money that somebody else earned away from them? Only the left wing could come up with that kind of insane troll logic. It's got the stamp of their common core all over it.
The problem with mmo rpg is that every single @&$@&$ in the game thinks 'they' are the hero of the world. Rift tried to address this with concept of time travel. Which was pretty clever. Daoc originally had an RvR frontier where everyone came to help defend or take relics (later of. Course that all changed).
Wow for me is so boring. Same races, same classes. Boring, boring, boring. personally can't even go near a wow client. I'm that sick of it.
FF14ARR is in my opinion beautiful but the classes are to easy and that leads me to find them to be boring. Also the weird quirks like the map system, and scenery with invisible walls ( think rail based game) just takes pleasure out of the world.
So....I'll give eso a chance, yet I suspect it will be fun at first but will not have staying power. I'll also give Camelot unchained a look for hope that RvR will be awesome. However what I want is an expansive epic world. A vanguard without the bugs.... With RvR.
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet Originally posted by JJ82 Originally posted by Frigiddeath Long story short, it is not that MMOs have gotten more boring, but MMO players have become nothing more than a group of self-entitled whiners.
Oh! Bravo! I’ve got your sarcasm. Sarcasm? Isn’t it?
Because to write that at old times comparing to your times “games were laggy, grindy, and ridiculously time-consuming” you should possess a great sense of humor.
I do understand, you never intended your post to be taken seriously. Bravo!
Originally posted by mCalvert Take away WoW, and maybe EVE, and the picture is vastly different. MMOs have never been mainstream, and never will be. The genre doesn't rise and fall. It just smoulders and sometimes sparks.
how do you define mainstream?
Main Game: Eldevin (Plat0nic)2nd Game: Path of Exile (Platonic Hate)
I bet there will be much hate for this but the next-gen MMO was made almost a decade ago with massive semiRPG servers for the multiplayer modification of GTA games (samp etc.) - an unoficial modification which now features servers with up to 1k players (that's the most I've seen a server had so far).
Why do I concider it "next-gen"? There is a point where you get sick of the game's lore and of being the best in class - the thing you don't get sick off due to being human is - interaction with other humans. New games might introduce new combat systems, better graphics, new places to explore but for an experienced guy like probably many of you here those things don't mean rat's ass anymore - you've seen it all and there is almost nothing they can offer you in those aspects and that is why every single new MMO is failing.
SAMP (standing for San Andreas Multiplayer) offered me something none of those fancy MMOs have - concequences of interacting with other humans. A game where every single player can both kill you or give you something of great value since the only real value on most of the servers is - money (unlike justice points and gear in regular MMOs which are bound to you, money/gold being a convenience).
The point is that those options provided much more realistic approach to interaction with other players, making a simple trade more exciting than any raid/instance in other games, due to it's realism and risks. The game had NO PVE aspect and you were always interacting with someone. The only time you were not doing that was (some) of your profession (example: a truck driver) which in most cases was driving from point A to B and due to the core game itself - driving is relaxing, unlike grinding mobs.
-the mod and the game are old hence outdated graphics
-many of the servers were command dependent which made it repulsive to many players - myself included
-many of the servers featured forced roleplay due to lack of decent scripts or finding better solution - I find roleplay (pretending) to be retarded and never took part in it which sometimes resulted in getting kicked. If you like DnD and are a wannabe gangster - this is the type of server for you
-many of the fans thought All Points Bulletin' will replace samp with updated graphics, more options etc. It never delivered for them due to it being team deathmatch with small player cap, city and cars (last two is the only resemblence to samp servers)
-GTA5 was on good track of replacing samp but the 16 (or 12 - not sure) player cap and some other decisions removed that possibiltiy
I think we should explore by what I mean by "self-entitled whiners", but let's first look at the logic of MMOs being stagant. Saying that MMO have not changed over the last 10 years is about as silly as it gets. SWTOR added a more dramatic presentation to the story, Tera tried to add in action combat, Aion added in limited flying, Rift tried to add in more build diversity, Neverwinter tried to add in player made content, and I could go on and on. Saying that the genre is stagnant proves that point that MMO players are so blinded by their own silly ideal game, that no game will ever be good enough. Case in point, that all of the game mentioned above were pretty much put on a "F2P in 6 months" dumpster list before they ever came out. Is anyone really shocked when a game does not do well when a large amount of the player base writes it off before even playing the game once? Let's not even get into calling every game a "WoW clone" even when it is painfully obvious that it not.
This goes back to my point of calling a lot of MMO players whiny and self entitled. Asking for an improvement is fine, but complaining about every little feature was added in that you personally want is stupid. The entire Wildstar body sliders is a great example. Body sliders, while a cool feature, don't add anything to a game overall. If you had the perfect character builder, but was a terrible game, you still would not play it. However, a basic character builder with good game play is played for years. Go look at WoW, there barely any character creation option. In EVE online, it took how many years before they even gave you the option to create an actual human avatar? Both games are still heavily played. However, Wildstar not adding sliders in makes it a terrible game and no one should play it because logic. Does not matter if they said they would look in trying to add it in post launch, something WoW has not even done in 10 years, the game must be terrible.
ESO is in the same boat. ESO is not a terrible game, not really something for a traditional MMO player like myself, but I don't think it is a bad game. Yet, what have we seen for the last 6 months. "OMG, ESO is a dumpster game and will be F2P in a year". Remember, at this point, barely anyone has even played the game. Yet somehow, everyone knows it is a bad game. At which point, players create a laundry list of terrible things about the game that they heard from some random guy on reddit. Yep, that seems like a good way to judge a game. Don't play it because a guy on reddit said it was dumpster.
I doubt either Wildstar or ESO will have a perfect launch. I am willing to bet both games have server issues, balance issues, maybe a few bugs here and there. The difference is, I played old MMO and pretty much remember how buggy, laggy, and unresponsive they were. Not even going to get into balance issues. The difference is the players back then, while they did complain, did not go right to the "this game is bad and should never be considered" even before the game launched. They did not find every reason in the world to nit pick things the second they were listened to. "Oh, this game does have x now, well it does not have y, dumpster game". This is the typical response to most MMO players on forums. Honestly, it is really annoying at this point. I know the internet was made for people could cry about every little thing they wish they could in real life, but at this point it is making every game have to live to impossible standards.
Like I said, I am waiting for EQ:N and Star Citizen to show anything from the game. People will jump on them, just like every other MMO in the last 10 years. EQ:N will be terrible for having anything in it that is like a theme park, people will complain that the smart AI is not good enough, that the game was not what was promised. Does not actually matter that SOE never promised anything other than making a good MMO, people already have in their mind what the game HAS to be, and anything deviating from that illusionary game in their head makes it a bad game. Star Citizen will probably get it even worse, thinking the entire that was pretty much crowd funded. Nothing worse than listen to the crying of a fanboy than when they actually spent money on it already. That is why I call a lot of MMO gamers, and to be honest I should say MMO forum goers, nothing but but a bunch of self-entitled whiner. If the game is not EVERYTHING they want it to be, it is a terrible game. No, you are simply a brat asking for more than anyone can give. Pretty much the definition of self-entitlement.
"I blame the move to theme park style games. This created the culture of the content locusts. My girlfriend made a point about a time when every detail in the game and how to complete everything quickly wasn't posted everywhere on the net. All the how to guides are clear evidence of this transition. She was part of one of the bigger guilds back in EQ and figuring stuff out for yourself brought pride to the group. Those days are gone. I see some of this as evidence of the decline of our culture as a whole. This need for instant gratification. Of needing to be first or get the the end as quick as possible. I have been and always will be pissed at blizzard for feeding this mentality. Sure it got them profit but it also did loads of damage to the genre and the players themselves. Constant post level cap content became expected. Read the articles these days and you always hear comments about how end game is shaping up. Why are we talking end game before the game is even released. I played wow almost upon release and never had a level cap character until recently. Some of that had to do with switching servers with friends but most was because I just took my time and experienced the world.
I ask this, if all the cool stuff and game focus is in/on end game why then have all the levels before it? If I want to just dungeon crawl, which is all end game wow had become, I'll just log into TL2, PoE, D3 or other games that have done that part better or don't pretend to be anything more than that. Vindictus stripped away all the fluff. It's fun to play cause it is what it is and it does it well.
I play MMORPGs for community. For massive multiplayer interaction. The was a game years ago called Dark Ages where you couldn't even pick you class unless you did several quests AND had a fellow player sponcer you. It was amazing. I'm exited for Archage and EQ next cause at lea to paper they bring some of that community stuff back. All this is also why we are seeing more games with perma death. Makes you care about your actions, instead of just clicking auto attack and making a sand witch."
Agree, and wish I would have played dark ages, sounds fun
Originally posted by beel "I blame the move to theme park style games. This created the culture of the content locusts. My girlfriend made a point about a time when every detail in the game and how to complete everything quickly wasn't posted everywhere on the net. All the how to guides are clear evidence of this transition. She was part of one of the bigger guilds back in EQ and figuring stuff out for yourself brought pride to the group. Those days are gone. I see some of this as evidence of the decline of our culture as a whole. This need for instant gratification. Of needing to be first or get the the end as quick as possible. I have been and always will be pissed at blizzard for feeding this mentality. Sure it got them profit but it also did loads of damage to the genre and the players themselves. Constant post level cap content became expected. Read the articles these days and you always hear comments about how end game is shaping up. Why are we talking end game before the game is even released. I played wow almost upon release and never had a level cap character until recently. Some of that had to do with switching servers with friends but most was because I just took my time and experienced the world. I ask this, if all the cool stuff and game focus is in/on end game why then have all the levels before it? If I want to just dungeon crawl, which is all end game wow had become, I'll just log into TL2, PoE, D3 or other games that have done that part better or don't pretend to be anything more than that. Vindictus stripped away all the fluff. It's fun to play cause it is what it is and it does it well. I play MMORPGs for community. For massive multiplayer interaction. The was a game years ago called Dark Ages where you couldn't even pick you class unless you did several quests AND had a fellow player sponcer you. It was amazing. I'm exited for Archage and EQ next cause at lea to paper they bring some of that community stuff back. All this is also why we are seeing more games with perma death. Makes you care about your actions, instead of just clicking auto attack and making a sand witch." Agree, and wish I would have played dark ages, sounds fun
Brad "Everquest" McQuaid's new mmoRPG, I certainly hope you and your girl are investing friend!
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
MMORPGs are only in decline if you take the myopic belief that the big budget AAA WoW clones are the only games in town. The biggest offenders here are Rift and SWTOR. These games basically had a contest to see how many WoW features they could copy. Everything from the solo friendly open world, quest hub hopping, fast travel, instances dungeons, dungeon finders, instanced PvP, raid finders, easy respecs, and then raid more instances at end game. This formula IS what is wrong with MMOs. It is stale and no mmo veterans really want to put up with it any more. However, if you look beyond the WoW clones there is a tonn of stuff going on right now.
What the doom and gloom negative naysayers don't realize is that we are actually in a golden age of MMOs. There are more variety of MMOs today than ever before and more people playing them as well. MMORPGs like Age of Wushu are truly ground breaking with the persistent characters that don't disappear when you log off. This answers the age old question of what does your character do when you log off. Only Age of Wushu answers this question in a realistic manner. Then there is Vindictus which is far more than just an action MMO. It's core gameplay is based on environmental physics which no MMO has done before or since.
The problem is not with the industry but the poor attitude of the whiny malcontents on this forum. Players who still can't get over EQ1 or other choice fill in the blank MMO are like people who never moved on after the Beetles broke up or still think Elvis is alive. Don't be that guy. People need to reexamine why they play games in the first place and then look at all the possibilities that are out there now.
Was going to type up a nice, log post... but I have the feeling that nobody will read it. I'm tired of the developers in the genre not being innovative enough; some simply copy/paste the hottest trend.
How about this: why not work on features nobody else is doing? Ever wonder why Farmer John constantly stands in the same spot, every day and night for eternity? Why not have him go to bed sometime and another NPC takes his place? Maybe its a rogue, needing some help robbing poor Farmer John. Or its the guards wandering around the area looking for a thief? Or maybe Farmer John actually fixed his vermin problem and its his brother looking to gather up the cattle?
How about that old dungeon that keeps getting ransacked by adventurers? I'm thinking that bandit leader probably won't stick around if adventurers keep going in and killing him. Maybe he retires, the bandits head out somewhere else and a new threat heads in. Or it stays abandoned for a while. Or an entrepreneur moves in and turns it into a mining town. And that attracts some goblins...
Sorry, I just get tired of seeing the exact same thing in MMOs - raids that constantly respawn/reset with the exact same people doing the exact same things. NPCs with the exact same movements (typically standing in one place for eternity) asking for the same help from everybody that comes along.
Seriously, how many adventurers does it take to kill a kobold?
Can also be applied to MMORPGs:
"Look at the devices you have available to you and ask yourself which basic technological advancements they are built upon. Every year we get a better piece of plastic, metal and glass from China to carry around. The software that runs on this ever-improving piece of plastic is certainly better than last year's software. Something is getting better, but it is hardly revolutionary. Technological progress comes in two categories: incremental improvements and the advent of new technological primitives. " - Andrew Weev, notorious Apple hacker.
Graphics have gotten better, game worlds (and the amount of HD space they consume) have gotten larger, but technological improvements in pure immersion? Nada, zip. Unless you want to spend $50,000 to play your MMOs in this thing:
Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin
Being bored is a personal state of mind.
It is not indicative of a systemic problem with the world or state of entertainment.
I am bored of _________________
Next column title
The Decline of ________________
The biggest misconception of boredom is that is caused by some external object or event, when in fact it is caused by your own mind.
People determine what is boring to them, it is an internal mental process - otherwise a "boring book" (often used phrase, that falsly labels an object as being boring) would be universally boring to ALL people, which is simply not the case.
A more accurate way would be "I am bored of this book" - as it squarely puts the root of the boredom in you, not the object.
Objects are just that, we give them meaning, they can't be fun, interesting, boring or anything inherently.
A boring game does not exist, individuals can be bored of a particular game though.
Originally posted by DamonVile I'd like to know how a genre that goes up in population and up in profit every year is in decline ? Driving towards a cliff ...maybe. But till to actually goes off that's just an opinion. What I notice most about the genre is how much stock people put into forums. This is what everyone thinks, and everyone is somehow represented by what you read here......really ? The market is evolving to represent what people are willing to pay for. That leaves a lot of people out. They are bored with what the genre has to offer and they are VERY vocal about it. Nothing about the actual numbers indicates they are a majority representing what " most" people want. The complaint department is full of people who are unhappy with what they bought...that doesn't mean the store is as well. When a poll on this site has 200 votes and people can sit back saying see the evidence is in ...this is what people want! you have to wonder about someones math skills. 400 million people play " mmos" and 200 votes on a notoriously negative troll site tell you "most" people think this ?
Even if companies are making profit with MMOs this doesn't mean that MMORPG are getting better,they are getting worse year after year.It's like the music industry,mainstreaming = profits.But the other side of the coin is that you lose quality and innovation.
In the land of Predators,the lion does not fear the jackals...
Problem is, people today don't realize what MMO actually means. Games today are missing the massively multiplayer part of the word MMO. How can you call it massively multiplayer when more of the game is done solo than together with others? Maybe it's time to go back to the roots, find out where MMO's mostly came from and why it is called an MMO.
Do you all recognize what im talking about here? Everquest. There are a few other MMO's that came out shortly after EQ with the same concepts and they were popular as hell too. Don't you want to play a game with your good friends by yourside, accomplishing things that are actually challenging because it requires everyone to put forth an effort. Don't you want to be rewarded for your accomplishments and actually have purpose?
Well my friends, there is something out there. Something that is so old, lost, and amazing that it just might actually work and it's actually seems new and different because it hasn't been done sense the early 2000's. Check Pantheon out. I ENCOURAGE you to first watch all the video's there are before anything else! Here is link. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1588672538/pantheon-rise-of-the-fallen
MMORPGs in decline? well if that's true then good riddance. mmos are terrible games and have always been terrible games
the only reason to play one is because of the community, other than that they are a poor excuse for a game
When you play mmo's like a buffet you don't invest in any of them enough to feel connected. MMO ADHD is causing boredom.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
I fail to see how following the general opinion on these forums is controversial, sorry.
Half the time I come on here I see a thread with a similar title in the little "Current forum activity" box.
That said, many recent games (not just MMO's) existed only to milk the same tried and true principles even further. However, the change in this trend is slowly but steadily underway in my opinion.
Especially with the weak start for the new console generation, the way indie is popping up everywhere (not always in a good way mind you) and the disappointments when huge costly projects didn't manage to make their exorbitant budget back are signs that the times are changing imo.
The MMO genre seems to react slower than the rest of the gaming industry, but it will follow with a different trend in building and gameplay.
Whether any new trends will please the "rosy glasses" or the "hyper-sandbox" crowd however, is another matter entirely.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!