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The Greed, OMG the Greed

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  • ignore_meignore_me Apple Valley, CAPosts: 1,987Member
    Originally posted by Nephaerius
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
     

    There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

    Sounds like a list supporting my theory that if a game is quality, it offers a sub in addition to a free option, not just a free option. ;)

    that would make those games the ones, without quality

    LoL is one of mmos big cashcows

    surprising, that a shit game has so many fans, huh?

     Are you deluded?  35 million people play LoL.  It's the largest played game in the world. It's a shit game. Logic. It must suck to be alone.

    So he can't state his opinion that it is a shit game? I think LOL is shit too, so he isn't alone.

    Survivor of the great MMORPG Famine of 2011

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
    Originally posted by simplius

    a "true" F2P  game ,without subs? where would the Money come from?

    that game would be the perpetuum mobile.. i would like to play it

    freemium opens the gate , for any kind on monetization, so they can get more Money from the same game

    BTW, why didnt SWG go freemium? and warhammer online?

    SWG did essententially go freemium with the Sony Station Pass

    Warhammer Online didnt go because what happened was they were given a budget to make the game F2P but the game director saw the success of LoL and other MOBAs so he used those funds to create Warhammer Wrath of Heroes.  

    Wrath of Heroes failed and the game was shut down.

     

    There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

    no..they are CC driven games..somebody is stil opening their wallets

    just because you Arent paying, doesnt mean, that nobody is paying

    i guess you missed school that year

    rofl wait are you suggesting a game that is completely free that gets 0 revenue from any source?? ROFL

    it would have to, in order , to be a truly FREE game, wouldnt it?

    if not, then its CC driven...NOT free

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
    Originally posted by simplius

    a "true" F2P  game ,without subs? where would the Money come from?

    that game would be the perpetuum mobile.. i would like to play it

    freemium opens the gate , for any kind on monetization, so they can get more Money from the same game

    BTW, why didnt SWG go freemium? and warhammer online?

    SWG did essententially go freemium with the Sony Station Pass

    Warhammer Online didnt go because what happened was they were given a budget to make the game F2P but the game director saw the success of LoL and other MOBAs so he used those funds to create Warhammer Wrath of Heroes.  

    Wrath of Heroes failed and the game was shut down.

     

    There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

    no..they are CC driven games..somebody is stil opening their wallets

    just because you Arent paying, doesnt mean, that nobody is paying

    i guess you missed school that year

    rofl wait are you suggesting a game that is completely free that gets 0 revenue from any source?? ROFL

    it would have to, in order , to be a truly FREE game, wouldnt it?

    if not, then its CC driven...NOT free

    I suppose it's a good thing we have all these F2P games so that they can generate revenue and keep running. 

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nephaerius
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
     

    There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

    Sounds like a list supporting my theory that if a game is quality, it offers a sub in addition to a free option, not just a free option. ;)

    that would make those games the ones, without quality

    LoL is one of mmos big cashcows

    surprising, that a shit game has so many fans, huh?

     Are you deluded?  35 million people play LoL.  It's the largest played game in the world. It's a shit game. Logic. It must suck to be alone.

    it was sarcasm, i can see LoLs quality, although i didnt like it personally

    according to cazneerg, LoL is a low quality game, because it doesnt offer the option to sub

    that was my point

    PS 35 mio PLAYERS? yea , right

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by simplius
     

    it was sarcasm, i can see LoLs quality, although i didnt like it personally

    according to cazneerg, LoL is a low quality game, because it doesnt offer the option to sub

    that was my point

    PS 35 mio PLAYERS? yea , right

    Apparently none of you noticed the ;)

    I was mostly making a point about how quality is a subjective measure, unlike success which can be objectively measured.  I can recognize that a game can provide a quality experience for someone else while still providing a crappy experience for me, and vice versa.  The elements of games which I actually care about are ones which games that don't offer a sub option consistently do a poor job of implementing, when they try to implement them at all.  So no matter how good a job they do on what they do focus on, for my taste they still end up being unappealing products.

    Hell, I would play STO or LotRO before I would touch LoL.  I would even play WoW before I touched that.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
    Originally posted by simplius

    a "true" F2P  game ,without subs? where would the Money come from?

    that game would be the perpetuum mobile.. i would like to play it

    freemium opens the gate , for any kind on monetization, so they can get more Money from the same game

    BTW, why didnt SWG go freemium? and warhammer online?

    SWG did essententially go freemium with the Sony Station Pass

    Warhammer Online didnt go because what happened was they were given a budget to make the game F2P but the game director saw the success of LoL and other MOBAs so he used those funds to create Warhammer Wrath of Heroes.  

    Wrath of Heroes failed and the game was shut down.

     

    There are tons of True F2P games with out subs.  The money comes from cash shops.  LoL, TF2, Dota 2,  Maplestory and so on are all true F2P games.  

    no..they are CC driven games..somebody is stil opening their wallets

    just because you Arent paying, doesnt mean, that nobody is paying

    i guess you missed school that year

    rofl wait are you suggesting a game that is completely free that gets 0 revenue from any source?? ROFL

    it would have to, in order , to be a truly FREE game, wouldnt it?

    if not, then its CC driven...NOT free

    I suppose it's a good thing we have all these F2P games so that they can generate revenue and keep running. 

     

    heh,,apparently, its a good idea , to reduce the Price by 100%

    its a crazy world

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,067Member Uncommon

    Strictly speaking a F2P game can be Free-to-Buy or Buy-to-Play. 100% reduction though - yeah - probably a simple recognition on EA's part that SWTOR was stalled and the F2P would go nowhere without new account signups.

    I think when Bobsole1997 talks about "True F2P" games however he is talking about games that are designed as F2P from the ground up rather than F2P conversions like SWTOR. And to date F2P conversions tend not to compare well against true F2P games.

    Micro-transactions are really something that need to be built in from day 1 - both from a getting the player to pay and in avoiding the feeling of restraint that conversions tend to have. Gamasutra and other sites have run several articles by F2P designers - along with some by Gabe Newell. 

    For example sub based games have historically tended to introduce grind. Things to slow you down or simply burn time. Reputation grinds, slow crafting, slow travel - boats in EQ1 were every 15 minutes I seem to recall and the trip itself wasn't fast. rare drops etc. There was a backlash and games speeded up. And speeded up. As Olsen and others said they didn't get the 3-4 months they (foolishly) expected to add new content; they very quickly had the bulk of the players at max level. Not good for a sub based game; maybe if they had taken notice of what was being said pre-launch people might still have had to buy SWTOR.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by gervaise1

    Strictly speaking a F2P game can be Free-to-Buy or Buy-to-Play. 100% reduction though - yeah - probably a simple recognition on EA's part that SWTOR was stalled and the F2P would go nowhere without new account signups.

    I think when Bobsole1997 talks about "True F2P" games however he is talking about games that are designed as F2P from the ground up rather than F2P conversions like SWTOR. And to date F2P conversions tend not to compare well against true F2P games.

    Micro-transactions are really something that need to be built in from day 1 - both from a getting the player to pay and in avoiding the feeling of restraint that conversions tend to have. Gamasutra and other sites have run several articles by F2P designers - along with some by Gabe Newell. 

    For example sub based games have historically tended to introduce grind. Things to slow you down or simply burn time. Reputation grinds, slow crafting, slow travel - boats in EQ1 were every 15 minutes I seem to recall and the trip itself wasn't fast. rare drops etc. There was a backlash and games speeded up. And speeded up. As Olsen and others said they didn't get the 3-4 months they (foolishly) expected to add new content; they very quickly had the bulk of the players at max level. Not good for a sub based game; maybe if they had taken notice of what was being said pre-launch people might still have had to buy SWTOR.

    I think when people say "true" F2P they are referring to games that don't offer a sub (and never have).  LotRO, DDO, EQ2, TOR, these are hybrids, not "true" F2P, because the free option in each is really just an extended kind of free trial.

    And I really don't know where you are coming up with this thing about conversions not comparing well.  Most of the games that convert end up being very successful products. And the TOR devs could have listened all you  wanted pre-launch, but all themeparks run out of content, and it was never going to not be a themepark.  And when your content has a cinematic style with full voice, it takes even longer to develop.  The only way they could have been substantially faster is by delivering something that wasn't a BioWare style game, and it being a BioWare style game is the primary reason (other than the addition of the free option) it still has the million players a month it does have.

    Moving to a hybrid model isn't a sign of a developer doing anything wrong.  It is the new normal for games once players start finishing the initial content offering.  If it doesn't happen to Wildstar and ESO as well, I will be shocked, and I expect those both to be very successful.

    One last thing; the TOR dev is Ohlen, not Olsen.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Calgary, ABPosts: 2,156Member

    Last time I logged in I had a pile of cartel coins (security key helps), but man just about everything costs cartel, enabling your character's title, hiding helmet slot, expanding bank, blahblahblah. May just as well charge us for breathing air too.

    image
    image

  • TeknoBugTeknoBug Calgary, ABPosts: 2,156Member


    Originally posted by bobdole1979
    SWG did essententially go freemium with the Sony Station Pass

    What? I don't remember SWG going freemium, I remember that if you had a recurring sub before Sept 1st you were able to play sWG without having to pay anymore up until it shut down, I didn't have a recurring sub at the time and wasn't able to log in after Sept 1.


    In Feb, SOE is getting rid of the $14.95/mo to individual games and changing it to Station Pass for $14.95/mo access to all games. Planetside 2 and DCUO are the only 2 games I think are worth bothering with anyways, Vanguard is terrible and EQ2 is bland but I will check out EQ:Next when it comes out since it'll be using the Forgelight engine that PS2 uses.

    image
    image

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    "Best" is a worthless word, because it's completely subjective.  Ask ten different people what the best MMO they have ever played is, and there is a decent chance you get ten different answers.

    As for your argument about the relationship between quality and a sub, we established a long time ago from the synthesis of your posts that the only game that could even theoretically be considered "good" would be WoW.  I think everybody gets that you are a big ole troll at this point.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

  • WinterizerWinterizer Fuzzy Wuzzy CavePosts: 65Member

    Problem with free to play?

    Simple solution, sub to the game and enjoy

    It is not more then a couple of beers worth anyway

  • bobdole1979bobdole1979 beverly hills, CAPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    Then why did TF2 go F2P?

    Why is WoW changing its business model? 

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    I know this is a waste of time, but what evidence do you have that a fixed monthly fee is always the best fit for a "good" game, throughout the lifetime of the game?  I'm not aware of any general model that applies to all games equally.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    I know this is a waste of time, but what evidence do you have that a fixed monthly fee is always the best fit for a "good" game, throughout the lifetime of the game?  I'm not aware of any general model that applies to all games equally.

     

    I wonder what he has to say about wow adding a cash shop. Their business model has been evolving ( IE changing ) for years. They've also been running ADs saying play warcraft for FREE!!! ( to lvl 20 )  for a long time...but then I wouldn't put it past someone here to say the largest most successful mmo isn't among the best mmos.

  • sakersaker harrisburg, PAPosts: 993Member Uncommon

    the cult of infinite greed is the way in merica today, there should be no surprise in this.

  • dwarfusdwarfus Arlington, VAPosts: 93Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    EA's approach:

     

    This game is free to play. The buttons are locked but you're free to play. Don't like it? buy it.

     

    My approach:

     

    Don't like it? Uninstall it.

     

    I win. They lose.

    What exactly are they losing? Your willingness to spend $5? 

    I think others are right. This F2P mentality has gone overboard. It's freaking $15 a month! That's like one hour of working at the majority of jobs.

    But there's countless of people who will spend 8 hours a day on a game and expect every aspect of it to be free.

  • trash656trash656 Here, SKPosts: 357Member Uncommon
    All that stuff you hear in Interviews and Game trailers is all PR Bullsh**. Every game developer says they love their subscribers but it's like real life. Actions speak louder then words. Wake up and Lets get back to reality here. If you want to continue buying EA/Bioware products and feeling ripped off then the developers will continue Ripping gamers off and laughing all the way to the bank. F2P is a lot like the Government, because it's only good if it's handled properly in a moderate manner were the customers are respected by the developers and company when they don't have to feel like they are being continually milked like they are in SWTOR. SWTOR is a descent game, but the Companys EA/Bioware who run it really have Respect for their subscribers at all, or the Starwars game itself, but just use it to Make millions each year. EQ2 has a fair and descent cashshop system and so does most other F2P Games because when you subscribe there is no unlocking too do. Everything in EQ2 for instance the SC Market Place is all Cosmetic you don't have to buy anything out of it at all, Plus they give you 5 free packs of cards that reward you with free loot and includes 500 SC cash. the Cartel Market used to reward players in the beginning with 1 Cartel Pack Free and 600 Cartel Coins. But they got cheap and greedy, so Now they just Give you 500 Cartel Coins a Month and no Cartel Pack. Yeah your not getting ripped off right? Wrong.

     

    Cheers

    -Trash

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by CazNeerg
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    "Best" is a worthless word, because it's completely subjective.  Ask ten different people what the best MMO they have ever played is, and there is a decent chance you get ten different answers.

    As for your argument about the relationship between quality and a sub, we established a long time ago from the synthesis of your posts that the only game that could even theoretically be considered "good" would be WoW.  I think everybody gets that you are a big ole troll at this point.

    but only one game has the best sales numbers

    that is the product, that most people are willing , to spend their Cash on

    this may be difficult for you , to accept, but there IS a connection between sales and quality

    remember Aston martin lagonda? that car looks so cool

    but it is a shitty car, so it didnt sell well, even with a big name

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bobdole1979
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    Then why did TF2 go F2P?

    Why is WoW changing its business model? 

     

    TF2 didnt deliver, apparantly

    wow is getting old, and the market has shown signs of new times

    blizzard is milking wow for more Cash, while they can, yes they get penalty points for that too

    theyre still MILES above swtor, both in quality, AND in quantity

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    I know this is a waste of time, but what evidence do you have that a fixed monthly fee is always the best fit for a "good" game, throughout the lifetime of the game?  I'm not aware of any general model that applies to all games equally.

     

    if you want to win, copy the champion

    if not, do something else

    numbers tell the tale

  • simpliussimplius nakskovPosts: 1,042Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    I know this is a waste of time, but what evidence do you have that a fixed monthly fee is always the best fit for a "good" game, throughout the lifetime of the game?  I'm not aware of any general model that applies to all games equally.

     

    I wonder what he has to say about wow adding a cash shop. Their business model has been evolving ( IE changing ) for years. They've also been running ADs saying play warcraft for FREE!!! ( to lvl 20 )  for a long time...but then I wouldn't put it past someone here to say the largest most successful mmo isn't among the best mmos.

    yes, they are milking, that fact is a evidence for wows strength

    how many other 8 year old games, can get people to open their wallets, like that?

    yes, that ad is bad, but wow still isnt freemum..only up to lvl 20

    wow is getting OLD, and it shows. how many other 8 year old games do you play?

    EVE has adapted better, but its so much easier, to do with a small game

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member
    Originally posted by simplius
    Originally posted by lizardbones
    Originally posted by simplius

    i would put it this way: the best games dont have to change business model

    they Work fine, as is, and why fix something, that isnt broken?

    and, they dont have to lure in customers , using big FREE signs

    people will gladly pay a fixed monthly fee , if they have faith in the product

    I know this is a waste of time, but what evidence do you have that a fixed monthly fee is always the best fit for a "good" game, throughout the lifetime of the game?  I'm not aware of any general model that applies to all games equally.

     

    if you want to win, copy the champion

    if not, do something else

    numbers tell the tale

    I'm taking a guess as what you're saying, so apologies if I've not interpreted things correctly. 

     

    This only works if all the games are the same, and if all the customers for all the games are the same.  Even on this website there are people who prefer F2P systems over subscription systems.  If this were not the case, every person who could afford a subscription, and who wanted to play an MMORPG would be playing World of Warcraft.  This isn't the case though.  Player preferences extend to types of games, game subject matter, particular game mechanics and the monetization system used.  "[C]opy[ing] the champion" just isn't a viable model to address even a small portion of the many possible games that can be made or the many possible gamer preferences that exist.

     

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • CazNeergCazNeerg Puyallup, WAPosts: 2,198Member
    Originally posted by simplius
     

    but only one game has the best sales numbers

    that is the product, that most people are willing , to spend their Cash on

    this may be difficult for you , to accept, but there IS a connection between sales and quality

    remember Aston martin lagonda? that car looks so cool

    but it is a shitty car, so it didnt sell well, even with a big name

    This may be difficult for you to accept, but when analyzing why one product manages to do something others don't, you have to look at all the differences.  What are the primary differences between WoW today and other games?  I'll give you a hint; the answer isn't quality.  Actually, I'll just tell you straight out; it's about two things, the extremely high number of subscribers WoW had when it peaked, and the amount of customer loyalty you can build when your game has been around for a decade.

    There are lots of games that have just as much quality as WoW.  They just don't have ten years of history establishing a long term emotional connection with players.

    Peace is a lie, there is only passion.
    Through passion, I gain strength.
    Through strength, I gain power.
    Through power, I gain victory.
    Through victory, my chains are broken.
    The Force shall free me.

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