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Will the PvP area be a zerg fest?

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  • asmkm22asmkm22 Anchorage, AKPosts: 1,788Member
    Originally posted by cnutemp
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
     

    No I wont take part in this positive PR spin if DAOC were that great people would still be playing it even with the horrible post Atlantis expansions. Even Zergs have pocket battles on the side from time to time but to have people thinking that is or in this case will be the norm is deceitful at best.  It doesnt stand up to UO it doesnt stand up to AC it doesnt even stand up to Shadowbane. I know its hard to understand and it makes DAOC vets lose sleep at night, but many of us did play DAOC, and we thought it sucked. 

    Nah.  It has more to do with you supporting a different sports team...i mean video game.

    DAoC isn't designed to be a solo PVP experience.

    It does not have to be a solo pvp experience to not be a zergfest. Honestly its so restrictive its essentially a giant battleground  and since most people are not going to cover an area of land much larger than Alteric Valley before they get into a large scale pvp battle, the question arises, why not just play a game with open world pvp, Structured pvp AND RVR and or Battlegrounds. Zerging keeps is ok from time to time but I dont see you holding a large player base for years on end with it. I mean how interesting can the walls be?

    Tell the folks at eve online that.  Their most popular videos are always the large / epic fleet fights.  People want to be apart of some huge epic battle.  Otherwise there are a plethora of moba / arena rpg games out there with more even fights.

    That's because those are the only Eve videos that are at all entertaining.  Eve does not have very exciting PvP, and it's definitely not exciting to watch unless there's a ton of people involved.  Even then, anyone not in a huge ship is just static, and not really paid attention to.  You never see comments talking about how amazing some random fighter is (even if he's more than pulling his own weight) because people can't really see him.

    You make me like charity

  • SleepyfishSleepyfish Ashville, NCPosts: 363Member
    Originally posted by asmkm22
    Originally posted by cnutemp
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
     

    No I wont take part in this positive PR spin if DAOC were that great people would still be playing it even with the horrible post Atlantis expansions. Even Zergs have pocket battles on the side from time to time but to have people thinking that is or in this case will be the norm is deceitful at best.  It doesnt stand up to UO it doesnt stand up to AC it doesnt even stand up to Shadowbane. I know its hard to understand and it makes DAOC vets lose sleep at night, but many of us did play DAOC, and we thought it sucked. 

    Nah.  It has more to do with you supporting a different sports team...i mean video game.

    DAoC isn't designed to be a solo PVP experience.

    It does not have to be a solo pvp experience to not be a zergfest. Honestly its so restrictive its essentially a giant battleground  and since most people are not going to cover an area of land much larger than Alteric Valley before they get into a large scale pvp battle, the question arises, why not just play a game with open world pvp, Structured pvp AND RVR and or Battlegrounds. Zerging keeps is ok from time to time but I dont see you holding a large player base for years on end with it. I mean how interesting can the walls be?

    Tell the folks at eve online that.  Their most popular videos are always the large / epic fleet fights.  People want to be apart of some huge epic battle.  Otherwise there are a plethora of moba / arena rpg games out there with more even fights.

    That's because those are the only Eve videos that are at all entertaining.  Eve does not have very exciting PvP, and it's definitely not exciting to watch unless there's a ton of people involved.  Even then, anyone not in a huge ship is just static, and not really paid attention to.  You never see comments talking about how amazing some random fighter is (even if he's more than pulling his own weight) because people can't really see him.

    EVEs pvp is a hell of a lot more than Zergs running around I still have an active account and you wont bore me with that BS. There is more than enough opportunity to run into pirates in that game and not zerg pvp encounters  as well as large battles which are usually organized battles over supremacy. Again you can have large battles but you can also world pvp to your hearts content solo or in small groups. Its about enjoying the games overall pvp not making youtube videos. 

    Now I sort of want to log on. 

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    There's Zergs in every PvP focued game from DAoC to Darkfall.  All had their Aergy nature but what is put in place to appeal to the small scale PvP'er is the make or break aspect.  And I feel ESO will parlay this into a good PvP game because it's done away with the things that made Zergs "the only" way in games such as GW2 or WAR.  Having a zone so huge that a zerg couldn't possibly cover the first thing they got right where others got wrong.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • deakondeakon birminghamPosts: 583Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
    There's Zergs in every PvP focued game from DAoC to Darkfall.  All had their Aergy nature but what is put in place to appeal to the small scale PvP'er is the make or break aspect.  And I feel ESO will parlay this into a good PvP game because it's done away with the things that made Zergs "the only" way in games such as GW2 or WAR.  Having a zone so huge that a zerg couldn't possibly cover the first thing they got right where others got wrong.

    I would also say having an overall objective to the map that is easy to deny the opposition no matter how far your faction is behind also helps discourage lumping the majority of your forces in one place

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf 

    Are you suggesting that DAoC is pvp for the unskilled?

    I am not even suggesting it I am flat out saying it. PVP in those types of games involves moving zergs in patterns and workarounds to encounter other groups. It does not compare to me to Asherons Call or Ultima Online, of course I am going by the classic pre crap versions of all these games. And 1v1 does not mean Rambo, I would wager someone who wins a majority of 1v1 or 1v3 encounters is much more patient with the buttons than someone spamming his Q button in a Zerg. I am certain I will see more Rambo tactics in a GW2 fight than an open world fight in the middle of a field somewhere. 

    Im pretty sure you're just generalizing and never actually competed on a high level  DaoC.. but im going to clear somethings up.

    Daoc has zergs .. yes, However it also had its 1 v (any #) and small group battles that involve skill. If you never played Daoc and you assume that its anything  like GW2, please stop ... you're comparing apples to rocks.

    No I wont take part in this positive PR spin if DAOC were that great people would still be playing it even with the horrible post Atlantis expansions. Even Zergs have pocket battles on the side from time to time but to have people thinking that is or in this case will be the norm is deceitful at best.  It doesnt stand up to UO it doesnt stand up to AC it doesnt even stand up to Shadowbane. I know its hard to understand and it makes DAOC vets lose sleep at night, but many of us did play DAOC, and we thought it sucked. 

    *whispers* People are still playing it and guess what ... they are paying a subscription too.. (gasp) 

    *whispers* If Daoc wasnt that great nobody would be trying to replicate it.

    No PR spin and im not saying Daoc is the pinnacle of solo pvp. All im simply saying is that Daoc wasnt just zerg vs zerg fest. I am a solo player who respects the solo game because its hard to make a name for yourself if you are just in a cluster f**k. Iv had countless 1v1, 1v3, 2 v groups in Daoc and thats the only reason why I played so long...

    image
  • jdnycjdnyc Long Island City, NYPosts: 1,696Member
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf 

    Are you suggesting that DAoC is pvp for the unskilled?

    I am not even suggesting it I am flat out saying it. PVP in those types of games involves moving zergs in patterns and workarounds to encounter other groups. It does not compare to me to Asherons Call or Ultima Online, of course I am going by the classic pre crap versions of all these games. And 1v1 does not mean Rambo, I would wager someone who wins a majority of 1v1 or 1v3 encounters is much more patient with the buttons than someone spamming his Q button in a Zerg. I am certain I will see more Rambo tactics in a GW2 fight than an open world fight in the middle of a field somewhere. 

    Im pretty sure you're just generalizing and never actually competed on a high level  DaoC.. but im going to clear somethings up.

    Daoc has zergs .. yes, However it also had its 1 v (any #) and small group battles that involve skill. If you never played Daoc and you assume that its anything  like GW2, please stop ... you're comparing apples to rocks.

    No I wont take part in this positive PR spin if DAOC were that great people would still be playing it even with the horrible post Atlantis expansions. Even Zergs have pocket battles on the side from time to time but to have people thinking that is or in this case will be the norm is deceitful at best.  It doesnt stand up to UO it doesnt stand up to AC it doesnt even stand up to Shadowbane. I know its hard to understand and it makes DAOC vets lose sleep at night, but many of us did play DAOC, and we thought it sucked. 

    *whispers* People are still playing it and guess what ... they are paying a subscription too.. (gasp) 

    *whispers* If Daoc wasnt that great nobody would be trying to replicate it.

    No PR spin and im not saying Daoc is the pinnacle of solo pvp. All im simply saying is that Daoc wasnt just zerg vs zerg fest. I am a solo player who respects the solo game because its hard to make a name for yourself if you are just in a cluster f**k. Iv had countless 1v1, 1v3, 2 v groups in Daoc and thats the only reason why I played so long...

    Even Zod had a couple of friends with him when he PVPed against Superman.

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member
    Originally posted by bcbully
    @badaboom your guess is wrong. It was just a guess though ;)

    Cryodill is too big, and detailed to become a circle zerg.

    I sincerely hope so and that you're not just saying that if you're wearing rose coloured glasses.

  • SleepyfishSleepyfish Ashville, NCPosts: 363Member
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by General-Zod
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Sleepyfish
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    Originally posted by DrunkWolf 

    Are you suggesting that DAoC is pvp for the unskilled?

    I am not even suggesting it I am flat out saying it. PVP in those types of games involves moving zergs in patterns and workarounds to encounter other groups. It does not compare to me to Asherons Call or Ultima Online, of course I am going by the classic pre crap versions of all these games. And 1v1 does not mean Rambo, I would wager someone who wins a majority of 1v1 or 1v3 encounters is much more patient with the buttons than someone spamming his Q button in a Zerg. I am certain I will see more Rambo tactics in a GW2 fight than an open world fight in the middle of a field somewhere. 

    Im pretty sure you're just generalizing and never actually competed on a high level  DaoC.. but im going to clear somethings up.

    Daoc has zergs .. yes, However it also had its 1 v (any #) and small group battles that involve skill. If you never played Daoc and you assume that its anything  like GW2, please stop ... you're comparing apples to rocks.

    No I wont take part in this positive PR spin if DAOC were that great people would still be playing it even with the horrible post Atlantis expansions. Even Zergs have pocket battles on the side from time to time but to have people thinking that is or in this case will be the norm is deceitful at best.  It doesnt stand up to UO it doesnt stand up to AC it doesnt even stand up to Shadowbane. I know its hard to understand and it makes DAOC vets lose sleep at night, but many of us did play DAOC, and we thought it sucked. 

    *whispers* People are still playing it and guess what ... they are paying a subscription too.. (gasp) 

    *whispers* If Daoc wasnt that great nobody would be trying to replicate it.

    No PR spin and im not saying Daoc is the pinnacle of solo pvp. All im simply saying is that Daoc wasnt just zerg vs zerg fest. I am a solo player who respects the solo game because its hard to make a name for yourself if you are just in a cluster f**k. Iv had countless 1v1, 1v3, 2 v groups in Daoc and thats the only reason why I played so long...

    Yes there are people playing it and paying for it, however its the same number of people give or take a few hundred that are still playing Fallen Earth. Sometimes people try to replicate old crap out of some sense of nostalgia, maybe that explains Darkfall. DAOC was always too restrictive from the very beginning, when it was new it had the privilege of being new. However that style of pvp is no longer new and I have  hard time believing you will ever get past the 300k player cap on a niche "pvp" system like that. There are very good reasons why Star Wars Galaxies never caught fire in the market or couldnt keep its player base intact, and there are also very good reasons why DAOC had a lower population than SWG. There are people paying online subs to play table tennis right now, but because 500 people do something self defeatist like that doesnt mean it works for the other 99 percent, unless you want to make an argument in favor of making hundreds of thousands of people accept tennis balls coded in flash as the next big thing in mmo gaming. 

  • curacura WarsawPosts: 950Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by bcbully
    @badaboom your guess is wrong. It was just a guess though ;)

    Cryodill is too big, and detailed to become a circle zerg.

    I sincerely hope so and that you're not just saying that if you're wearing rose coloured glasses.

    Same here. Im a bit sceptical as it seems most gamers have different definition of "big" then me. I wonder if the problem is related to content of their pants ;-p

  • SleepyfishSleepyfish Ashville, NCPosts: 363Member
    Originally posted by cura
    Originally posted by Badaboom
    Originally posted by bcbully
    @badaboom your guess is wrong. It was just a guess though ;)

    Cryodill is too big, and detailed to become a circle zerg.

    I sincerely hope so and that you're not just saying that if you're wearing rose coloured glasses.

    Same here. Im a bit sceptical as it seems most gamers have different definition of "big" then me. I wonder if the problem is related to content of their pants ;-p

    Yes and "big" wont help bad game design. If its just a zergfest with more open spaces or meaningless obstacles  you will just end up with hapless mobs running around desperately looking for another zerg to kill and by the time they find each other it will be like finding a long lost relative. That and more people standing around AFK. RVR turns pvp into forced busy work, all this does is make the busy work more aggravating. And all of that is meaningless without a large game population. You attain populations over time, you dont just assume 6 million people will fill  your RVR zone and pray for the best and thats exactly what has to happen because the PVE and non combat in general is basically meaningless in this game. 

  • HaralinHaralin KölnPosts: 110Member

    Every RvR, WvW or AvA Playmode will have mostly Zergs after a while.

     

    DAoC much Zerg some 8 slot groups but mostly Zerg or Stealther Wars

    Warhammer only Zerg very few groupfights

    Guild Wars 2 at the beginning nice groupfights now only Zerg and the #1 skill on melees is AEO so easy to Zerg and spam #1

    Lotro at the beginning nice fights now only Zerg

     

    Zerg is the easy way to achieve something or if you are a soloplayer you need to zerg or you get ganked by a 3/5/8 slot group or stealther. So the most player like to zerg.

     

    I am a player who plays all zerg, roaming or solo, all are fun and frustration in some kind.

     

    So Zerg  is it,  you will see the most in a RvR, WvW or AvA mode.

  • tom_goretom_gore TamperePosts: 1,795Member Uncommon

    It depends on the effective area of the AvA zone. Effective area not only means the actual area of the zone, but also available fast-transportation options.

    The larger the effective area, the less effective it will be to put everyone in one big blob.

    Guild Wars 2 failed in this sense by putting waypoints in the WvW area and generally making them too small in effective area. The bloodlust patch alleviated this somehow and added a real incentive for small groups to make an impact.

     

  • General-ZodGeneral-Zod Zod, CAPosts: 743Member Uncommon

     

    Im pretty sure you're just generalizing and never actually competed on a high level  DaoC.. but im going to clear somethings up.

    Daoc has zergs .. yes, However it also had its 1 v (any #) and small group battles that involve skill. If you never played Daoc and you assume that its anything  like GW2, please stop ... you're comparing apples to rocks.

    No I wont take part in this positive PR spin if DAOC were that great people would still be playing it even with the horrible post Atlantis expansions. Even Zergs have pocket battles on the side from time to time but to have people thinking that is or in this case will be the norm is deceitful at best.  It doesnt stand up to UO it doesnt stand up to AC it doesnt even stand up to Shadowbane. I know its hard to understand and it makes DAOC vets lose sleep at night, but many of us did play DAOC, and we thought it sucked. 

    *whispers* People are still playing it and guess what ... they are paying a subscription too.. (gasp) 

    *whispers* If Daoc wasnt that great nobody would be trying to replicate it.

    No PR spin and im not saying Daoc is the pinnacle of solo pvp. All im simply saying is that Daoc wasnt just zerg vs zerg fest. I am a solo player who respects the solo game because its hard to make a name for yourself if you are just in a cluster f**k. Iv had countless 1v1, 1v3, 2 v groups in Daoc and thats the only reason why I played so long...

    Yes there are people playing it and paying for it, however its the same number of people give or take a few hundred that are still playing Fallen Earth. Sometimes people try to replicate old crap out of some sense of nostalgia, maybe that explains Darkfall. DAOC was always too restrictive from the very beginning, when it was new it had the privilege of being new. However that style of pvp is no longer new and I have  hard time believing you will ever get past the 300k player cap on a niche "pvp" system like that. There are very good reasons why Star Wars Galaxies never caught fire in the market or couldnt keep its player base intact, and there are also very good reasons why DAOC had a lower population than SWG. There are people paying online subs to play table tennis right now, but because 500 people do something self defeatist like that doesnt mean it works for the other 99 percent, unless you want to make an argument in favor of making hundreds of thousands of people accept tennis balls coded in flash as the next big thing in mmo gaming. 

    Ill agree at the time 3 realm pvp was a new and exciting feature at the time and ill add that even with this particular "not new" feature you would think they would be able to improve upon it. 10 years ago flip phones were cool (atleast in califorina) .. if they were re-release the same ole flip phones they had 10 years ago without a little innovation it could be a disaster. WIth that being said, the Devs today have a hard time replicating the same phones ehrm, Features that were brought forth 10 years ago.. WTFIGO!?!

    Star wars is a huge IP and it makes sense why it would have more players than Daoc. Which game was better SWG or SWTOR? Which game has/had more players? See now the numbers lie? Let me ask you this .. if the market for mmos in 1999 was 20 million players how many of those millions would of played SWG, EQ and Daoc?

    image
  • SleepyfishSleepyfish Ashville, NCPosts: 363Member
    Originally posted by General-Zod

     

    Im pretty sure you're just generalizing and never actually competed on a high level  DaoC.. but im going to clear somethings up.

    Daoc has zergs .. yes, However it also had its 1 v (any #) and small group battles that involve skill. If you never played Daoc and you assume that its anything  like GW2, please stop ... you're comparing apples to rocks.

    No I wont take part in this positive PR spin if DAOC were that great people would still be playing it even with the horrible post Atlantis expansions. Even Zergs have pocket battles on the side from time to time but to have people thinking that is or in this case will be the norm is deceitful at best.  It doesnt stand up to UO it doesnt stand up to AC it doesnt even stand up to Shadowbane. I know its hard to understand and it makes DAOC vets lose sleep at night, but many of us did play DAOC, and we thought it sucked. 

    *whispers* People are still playing it and guess what ... they are paying a subscription too.. (gasp) 

    *whispers* If Daoc wasnt that great nobody would be trying to replicate it.

    No PR spin and im not saying Daoc is the pinnacle of solo pvp. All im simply saying is that Daoc wasnt just zerg vs zerg fest. I am a solo player who respects the solo game because its hard to make a name for yourself if you are just in a cluster f**k. Iv had countless 1v1, 1v3, 2 v groups in Daoc and thats the only reason why I played so long...

    Yes there are people playing it and paying for it, however its the same number of people give or take a few hundred that are still playing Fallen Earth. Sometimes people try to replicate old crap out of some sense of nostalgia, maybe that explains Darkfall. DAOC was always too restrictive from the very beginning, when it was new it had the privilege of being new. However that style of pvp is no longer new and I have  hard time believing you will ever get past the 300k player cap on a niche "pvp" system like that. There are very good reasons why Star Wars Galaxies never caught fire in the market or couldnt keep its player base intact, and there are also very good reasons why DAOC had a lower population than SWG. There are people paying online subs to play table tennis right now, but because 500 people do something self defeatist like that doesnt mean it works for the other 99 percent, unless you want to make an argument in favor of making hundreds of thousands of people accept tennis balls coded in flash as the next big thing in mmo gaming. 

    Ill agree at the time 3 realm pvp was a new and exciting feature at the time and ill add that even with this particular "not new" feature you would think they would be able to improve upon it. 10 years ago flip phones were cool (atleast in califorina) .. if they were re-release the same ole flip phones they had 10 years ago without a little innovation it could be a disaster. WIth that being said, the Devs today have a hard time replicating the same phones ehrm, Features that were brought forth 10 years ago.. WTFIGO!?!

    Star wars is a huge IP and it makes sense why it would have more players than Daoc. Which game was better SWG or SWTOR? Which game has/had more players? See now the numbers lie? Let me ask you this .. if the market for mmos in 1999 was 20 million players how many of those millions would of played SWG, EQ and Daoc?

    I think even with a 20m market these games would never get this high I dont think there would BE a market that high if only those games were in play. DAOC I cannot invision it ever maintaining a pop over 1 million for any long period of time in any market just like GW2 cant do it now, not even close. Theres simply not enough to do, rvr alone in a themepark will not cut it. There has to be more than working catapults and taking towers 24/7 these games totally remove the danger and solo adventure aspects of mmorpgs. 

    There is just a player cap on certain games, pure PVE raiding sure, you will have a pop of about 200 to 300 thousand, same with RVR, PVP sandbox maybe the same or lower, probably about half, Pure PVP about the same, RVR same as pure PVE. Its because people dont just want to do one thing they will get bored and leave. UO, WOW, even EQ at least had multiple paths to freedom. There is a reason certain wow expansions peaked and other like MOP lost players. Not because the game is dated so much but because in that Vanilla to BC era you could do almost anything. EVE anything within imagination, etc.

    But those games populations today? Giving them the benefit of the doubt  Probably Lineage 8, EQ 4 SWG 2 UO 1 DAOC 500,000 These games didnt peak at the same time however but the games that were that far ahead of DAOC were that far ahead on the same scale with lower pop of course. This is simply for entertainment, non of those games would ever be that high. And Star Wars had a big IP then to, didnt help it then either, actually their peak populations are about the same, which is a bit poetic.  

  • catlanacatlana Houston, TXPosts: 1,677Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    It depends on the effective area of the AvA zone. Effective area not only means the actual area of the zone, but also available fast-transportation options.

    The larger the effective area, the less effective it will be to put everyone in one big blob.

    Guild Wars 2 failed in this sense by putting waypoints in the WvW area and generally making them too small in effective area. The bloodlust patch alleviated this somehow and added a real incentive for small groups to make an impact.

     

    Waypoints in WvW was a amazingly stupid idea. I am not a huge fan of pvp in guildwars (grrr at endless vigor bunker builds) but they definitely have worked on it. 

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