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Forbes Predicting Biggest Disaster of 2014

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  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dotdotdash

    That is that the developers took a checklist of bog standard MMO mechanics and tried to wrap the TES franchise around them. What, imho, they should have done is start with the core mechanics and elements of the TES franchise and built those forward to being workable in a massive online environment.

     And the funny thing about that is we have already seen it in MMO games so we know it can be done.

    MMOs have been open world. MMOs have had no classes and allows you to train up each and every skill in the game (like TSW). MMOs have had factions with no racial locks. MMOs have had races with no faction locks. MMOs have allowed you to join factions after character creation, even switching sides like in SWG. MMOs have had in game mods as in The Foundry in Neverwinter, CoH and even the guild quest builder in SWG and worse yet, upcoming games like Shroud of the Avatar is going to allow players to make entire areas, towns, armor, weapons, NPCs, quests and sell them in an online shop!

    TESO looks like it wasn't made with TES in mind, it looks like they were going to make DaoC 2 and suddenly had to make it into TES after starting.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,126Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Elikal
    Originally posted by Rhazmuz
    So many breaking NDA, hope they never get into a beta again!

    I will adhere to the NDA. But really, the NDA has to go. Now.

    This game NEEDS an open debate pronto. It is in severe danger which only the flames of an open debate can save.

    Extremely ignorant statement. No time in the history of game development has a developer dropped their NDA so they can enter an open debate with the public when 99.99% of the game has already been developed so they can listen and then remake the entire game.

     

    Welcome back to reality.

    You stay sassy!

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    Extremely ignorant statement. No time in the history of game development has a developer dropped their NDA so they can enter an open debate with the public when 99.99% of the game has already been developed so they can listen and then remake the entire game. 

    Welcome back to reality.

     Speaking of reality.

    In which one do developers listen to the community before its too late?

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • gervaise1gervaise1 .Posts: 2,082Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Zinzan
    Originally posted by Zzulu
    I will not buy the game until it changes the payment system, so I agree with the article somewhat

    Yep, i really want ISO level microtransactions as well. Wow a new zone...wait, won't let me in until i PAY FOR IT!

    New raid, all the guild want to go...wait, I have to go get my credit card before it can go....

    Modern MT's are becoming really really awful as games companies try to milk more from their cows, a subs fee with all-in content and no hidden fees is far preferrable for me.

    New raid, all the guild want to go .... wait I have to get out my credit card and pay my sub before I can go .... a sub is a transaction.

    You can automate the sub - but you can automate the payment for content drops as well, premium memberships etc.

    Not having a sub doesn't mean a game has to have a cash shop with micro-transactions.

     

  • neobahamut20neobahamut20 ste-julie, QCPosts: 336Member
    Originally posted by Nemesis7884

    what i think is kinda funny is that when a game announces it is ftp and has a cash shop - there is an outrage: pay to win, cash grab, no regular updates, pay walls - O M G

    when the game announces it has a sub there is an outrage as well: subs wont work anymore, cash grab, game is never worth so much money a year - O M G

     

    ...im really wondering what kind of business model players would think is appropriate besides completly free of course...

    Buy to Play

    Some publicity might be acceptable too.

    Voluntary subscribtions to remove said publicity

    Lower subscription cost.

    Faster content release to match the value of the subscription costs.

    I'm sure I missed a lot.

    Boycotting EA. Why? They suck, even moreso since 2008.

  • OzivoisOzivois Phoenix, AZPosts: 598Member

    I would like to comment on a few things:

     

    The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.

    Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.

    Regarding the bashing of developers who "don't listen to the community": This is one of the silliest and pointless comments/arguments I see around here. There is no like-minded community of gamers. Gamers come in all shapes and sizes, and when a developer listens to one member, they piss off two others. Developers need to stick with their vision and only respond to community concerns when they are received en masse.

    MMO games keep more subscribers by slowing down subscribers' time to max level. The problem with SWTOR was it was too quick to max level. It's really that simple. If it takes 6 month to max level for ESO instead of one then it will be successful holding subs. If not, then it will join SWTOR in retention statistics.

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.

    Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.

     So you are going to argue against an article that you state is full of bad opinions with "console gamers are used to buying several games a month for $60 each and they will make the switch to buying one that they will have to pay $15 a month to continue playing once they realize they can".

    Riiiiiight......and entire market is going to make that switch because TESO is just THAT good of a game!

    Well, guess those single player gamer makers better start packing up their offices since TESO is now going to kill SP games.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    doh

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • DrDwarfDrDwarf TeesidePosts: 475Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.

    Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.

     So you are going to argue against an article that you state is full of bad opinions with "console gamers are used to buying several games a month for $60 each and they will make the switch to buying one that they will have to pay $15 a month to continue playing once they realize they can".

    Riiiiiight......and entire market is going to make that switch because TESO is just THAT good of a game!

    Well, guess those single player gamer makers better start packing up their offices since TESO is now going to kill SP games.

    Indeed.

    The above is a pretty good example of how fanbois ignore almost anything to justify their own position including as you say the idea that console gamers will change their behaviours almost overnight so that ESO is a success !

     

     

     

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DrDwarf
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.

    Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.

     So you are going to argue against an article that you state is full of bad opinions with "console gamers are used to buying several games a month for $60 each and they will make the switch to buying one that they will have to pay $15 a month to continue playing once they realize they can".

    Riiiiiight......and entire market is going to make that switch because TESO is just THAT good of a game!

    Well, guess those single player gamer makers better start packing up their offices since TESO is now going to kill SP games.

    Indeed.

    The above is a pretty good example of how fanbois ignore almost anything to justify their own position including as you say the idea that console gamers will change their behaviours almost overnight so that ESO is a success !

     

     

     

    It won't be overnight, they will have a month. You're stating that console gamers are too stupid to realize that the game will cost a sub a month when FFXI was out many console gamers were paying a sub to play that. This isnt the first mmo to charge a sub on console.

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by DrDwarf
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.

    Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.

     So you are going to argue against an article that you state is full of bad opinions with "console gamers are used to buying several games a month for $60 each and they will make the switch to buying one that they will have to pay $15 a month to continue playing once they realize they can".

    Riiiiiight......and entire market is going to make that switch because TESO is just THAT good of a game!

    Well, guess those single player gamer makers better start packing up their offices since TESO is now going to kill SP games.

    Indeed.

    The above is a pretty good example of how fanbois ignore almost anything to justify their own position including as you say the idea that console gamers will change their behaviours almost overnight so that ESO is a success !

     

     

     

    It won't be overnight, they will have a month. You're stating that console gamers are too stupid to realize that the game will cost a sub a month when FFXI was out many console gamers were paying a sub to play that. This isnt the first mmo to charge a sub on console.

    How many FFXI players subbed at it's peak? and how many of them were console players? I'm not meaning to take sides, I just don't know. That said I was never under the impression it was a majority or even a significant number.

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by DrDwarf
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    blah blah blah

     blah blah blah blah

    blah blah 

    blah blah blah

    I really don't care or think it has anything to do with anything other than an argument on who really cares about this issue if you even want to call it an issue. I was more or less throwing it out there because he said console gamers don't know what a sub is. All I care about is if the game is fun for me, I don't care how many of millions of people play the game, as long as I'm having fun that is all that matters. I'm not investing stock in the company and following their market value so what the hell do the numbers of subscribers at peak use have to do with me the player. There is only one server so you will never know unless the game is really really low on population.

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by DrDwarf
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Ozivois

    The Forbes article is way to opinionated on not based on any facts. Lots of opinions, and bad ones at that.

    Regarding console gamers not being used to subscription fees: While that may be true, console gamers are used to buying one or two $60 games per month; games that have a very short shelf life. Console gamers will realize they can stop spending $120 per month on new titles by sticking with one game and a $15 subscription; if the game's experience is compelling then everyone wins.

     So you are going to argue against an article that you state is full of bad opinions with "console gamers are used to buying several games a month for $60 each and they will make the switch to buying one that they will have to pay $15 a month to continue playing once they realize they can".

    Riiiiiight......and entire market is going to make that switch because TESO is just THAT good of a game!

    Well, guess those single player gamer makers better start packing up their offices since TESO is now going to kill SP games.

    Indeed.

    The above is a pretty good example of how fanbois ignore almost anything to justify their own position including as you say the idea that console gamers will change their behaviours almost overnight so that ESO is a success !

     

     

     

    It won't be overnight, they will have a month. You're stating that console gamers are too stupid to realize that the game will cost a sub a month when FFXI was out many console gamers were paying a sub to play that. This isnt the first mmo to charge a sub on console.

    How many FFXI players subbed at it's peak? and how many of them were console players? I'm not meaning to take sides, I just don't know. That said I was never under the impression it was a majority or even a significant number.

    I really don't care or think it has anything to do with anything other than an argument on who really cares about this issue if you even want to call it in issue about the actual game. All I care about is if the game is fun for me, I don't care how many of millions of people play the game, as long as I'm having fun that is all that matters.

    All the power to you.

    You just raised something I was interested in, also raised by the forbes article in question. The idea that console players generally won't sub. I don't know if it's true but I want to.

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ozmono
    blah blah blah! blah? blah blah!!!

    You just raised something I was interested in, also raised by the forbes article in question. The idea that console players generally won't sub. I don't know if it's true but I want to.

    Well the interwebs are at your fingers young padawan, go forth and find your answers.

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by ozmono
    lets clean this nonsense up a bit...

    You just raised something I was interested in, also raised by the forbes article in question. The idea that console players generally won't sub. I don't know if it's true but I want to.

    Well the interwebs are at your fingers young padawan, go forth and find your answers.

    A little ahead of you there mate ;) Tried, couldn't even find credible numbers for FFXI in general let alone console subscribers. Not that I tried extremely hard but I did have a little looksy.

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ozmono
    blah blah blah!

    A little ahead of you there mate ;) Tried, couldn't even find credible numbers for FFXI in general let alone console subscribers. Not that I tried extremely hard but I did have a little looksy.

    Even DCUO had a sub at first, I paid it for a few months on the PS3 and the game was pretty damn populated. Then Sony got hacked or something and they brought down the whole online play for months(? can't remember how long it was) but then they came back and made the game F2P and I never really got into it again after that because Rift came out and I played that for 6 months.

    I'm not a fanboi of anything really, maybe 3 faction AvA but other than that all I care about is a fun game without the intrusion of cash shops so subs don't bother me at all. I wouldnt mind a B2P but even than they still have to focus on getting money and it seems they are always trying to point you to the cash shop for something. I don't like cash shops in games, pretty much is what I'm saying :)

  • ozmonoozmono Not tellingPosts: 1,211Member
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by ozmono
    blah blah blah!

    A little ahead of you there mate ;) Tried, couldn't even find credible numbers for FFXI in general let alone console subscribers. Not that I tried extremely hard but I did have a little looksy.

    Even DCUO had a sub at first, I paid it for a few months on the PS3 and the game was pretty damn populated. Then Sony got hacked or something and they brought down the whole online play for months(? can't remember how long it was) but then they came back and made the game F2P and I never really got into it again after that because Rift came out and I played that for 6 months.

    I'm not a fanboi of anything really, maybe 3 faction AvA but other than that all I care about is a fun game without the intrusion of cash shops so subs don't bother me at all. I wouldnt mind a B2P but even than they still have to focus on getting money and it seems they are always trying to point you to the cash shop for something. I don't like cash shops in games, pretty much is what I'm saying :)

    Fair enough. I hope you weren't under the impression I was trying to call you a fanboi or anything of that nature. Just interested in the claim that the article made. As I said I wasn't trying to take sides.

  • FearumFearum Cinnaminson, NJPosts: 1,166Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ozmono
    Originally posted by Fearum
    Originally posted by ozmono
    blah blah blah!

    Fair enough. I hope you weren't under the impression I was trying to call you a fanboi or anything of that nature. Just interested in the claim that the article made. As I said I wasn't trying to take sides.

    No, just throwing that out there lol. Seen it thrown around in the thread before.

    The article I think is based on the fact that most games in the last few years that have had the sub model at launch failed only because of the sub model. I really don't see a payment model the downfall of a game (not fact here but I can only give my opinion on my personal experience) more than the failure of the game as a whole to hold on to its own population. Some people seem to be under the impression that just because a game has a sub payment model that it will fail, failing to even look at the product they are trying to sell in the long run. 

    Is this game worthy of a sub? I have no idea yet, its impossible to tell until we see how they are going to keep the large game world content updates rolling out. Also really can't judge on this until I get in to the game and play it for a few months, since WoW I have not subed to a game longer than 6 months, one being Rift and the other was DF UW. Both I had a great time for 6 months in but just lost interest and quit. There are others I have played with the sub model that only gave me about 3 months of entertainment.

    I only played one B2P game, that being GW2 and played it for 3 months. They only had one real content update to the world with that crappy little zone they added and all the other stuff was fluff. I don't play F2P games because haven't found one that peaked my interest enough to check it out.

     

  • slicknslim88slicknslim88 Norfolk, VAPosts: 394Member

    If it wasn't for FFXIV's new success with ARR and their subscription model, I would immediately write off ESO's subscription model just for it being a subscription model.  Although with ARR's success, it's hard to just immediately write it off.

    However ARR has several advantages over ESO that I believe will make a difference.  First off, the box is half the price that ESO will cost.  ARR's budget cost of 30 dollars, and even a budget sub price of 13 dollars is far more welcoming than a 60 dollar box price with a 15 dollar sub fee, AND a micro transaction shop to top it off.

    Secondly, ARR PC launched alongside the PS3 version of the game.  Immediately allowing two versions of the game available for gamer's right out the gate.  The PS3 version being very well optimized and the controls for the game being spot on, allowing the PS3 version of the game to be a very solid platform to play the game on.  Whereas, ESO will only launch for PC and Mac in April, and it won't be till June that we'll see the PS4 and Xbox One versions of the game released, two consoles that are still brand spanking new and don't quite have a foothold in gamer's living rooms yet.

    Lastly, the part in the OP's article where he questioned the audience of the game I have to agree with.  An MMO Elder Scrolls game is awfully pointless.  It's built it's legacy off of top notch single player games.  Meaning it doesn't have the audience that ARR had when it launched.  ARR had many players come from the very successful FFXI.  That game having stood the test of time is about ready to call it quits and the players on it are ready to move onto the next iteration which is ARR.  This is a wide audience in itself, but coupled with the vast amount's of Final Fantasy fans as well as MMO fan's in general who like a solid title.  Mean's that ARR started out with an advantage over ESO.

  • remsleepremsleep Vida MatanovicaPosts: 109Member
    Originally posted by slicknslim88

    If it wasn't for FFXIV's new success with ARR and their subscription model, I would immediately write off ESO's subscription model just for it being a subscription model.  Although with ARR's success, it's hard to just immediately write it off.

    However ARR has several advantages over ESO that I believe will make a difference.  First off, the box is half the price that ESO will cost.  ARR's budget cost of 30 dollars, and even a budget sub price of 13 dollars is far more welcoming than a 60 dollar box price with a 15 dollar sub fee, AND a micro transaction shop to top it off.

    Secondly, ARR PC launched alongside the PS3 version of the game.  Immediately allowing two versions of the game available for gamer's right out the gate.  The PS3 version being very well optimized and the controls for the game being spot on, allowing the PS3 version of the game to be a very solid platform to play the game on.  Whereas, ESO will only launch for PC and Mac in April, and it won't be till June that we'll see the PS4 and Xbox One versions of the game released, two consoles that are still brand spanking new and don't quite have a foothold in gamer's living rooms yet.

    Lastly, the part in the OP's article where he questioned the audience of the game I have to agree with.  An MMO Elder Scrolls game is awfully pointless.  It's built it's legacy off of top notch single player games.  Meaning it doesn't have the audience that ARR had when it launched.  ARR had many players come from the very successful FFXI.  That game having stood the test of time is about ready to call it quits and the players on it are ready to move onto the next iteration which is ARR.  This is a wide audience in itself, but coupled with the vast amount's of Final Fantasy fans as well as MMO fan's in general who like a solid title.  Mean's that ARR started out with an advantage over ESO.

    Very well put. I agree with a lot of what you said, my only reservation is that I'd love to see what the current FF14ARR sub numbers are, I have a hunch that they are were still losing subs in dec, and are still losing them this month.

    Also don't forget the box price of ARR was $30 (now can get for $10) and sub fee is $10 - so much cheaper than most MMOs.

  • slicknslim88slicknslim88 Norfolk, VAPosts: 394Member
    I looked at an end of December realm list of how many people are on each of the realms.  And it totaled to about 1.5 million subs worldwide for ARR.  Which seems pretty strong.
  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by slicknslim88
    I looked at an end of December realm list of how many people are on each of the realms.  And it totaled to about 1.5 million subs worldwide for ARR.  Which seems pretty strong.

    Sounds legit.

  • slicknslim88slicknslim88 Norfolk, VAPosts: 394Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by slicknslim88
    I looked at an end of December realm list of how many people are on each of the realms.  And it totaled to about 1.5 million subs worldwide for ARR.  Which seems pretty strong.

    Sounds legit.

    http://ffxivrealm.com/threads/fascinating-ffxiv-population-census.8611/

    But you'll believe what you want anyway.  That's what ignorant, stubborn people do.

    But it was November, not December.

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,503Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by slicknslim88
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by slicknslim88
    I looked at an end of December realm list of how many people are on each of the realms.  And it totaled to about 1.5 million subs worldwide for ARR.  Which seems pretty strong.

    Sounds legit.

    http://ffxivrealm.com/threads/fascinating-ffxiv-population-census.8611/

    But you'll believe what you want anyway.  That's what ignorant, stubborn people do.

    But it was November, not December.

    Do you know what the difference between a subscriber and a registered user is? Once you find out, it'll help cure up that ignorance you are so ironically accusing me of.

  • slicknslim88slicknslim88 Norfolk, VAPosts: 394Member
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by slicknslim88
    Originally posted by colddog04
    Originally posted by slicknslim88
    I looked at an end of December realm list of how many people are on each of the realms.  And it totaled to about 1.5 million subs worldwide for ARR.  Which seems pretty strong.

    Sounds legit.

    http://ffxivrealm.com/threads/fascinating-ffxiv-population-census.8611/

    But you'll believe what you want anyway.  That's what ignorant, stubborn people do.

    But it was November, not December.

    Do you know what the difference between a subscriber and a registered user is? Once you find out, it'll help cure up that ignorance you are so ironically accusing me of.

    Wow, and you did exactly what I said you were going to do...I must be psychic.

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