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ESO - the mmo that is currently cool to hate

MargulisMargulis Glendale, AZPosts: 1,614Member

It seems like there is always an mmo that it is currently cool to bash and hate on - and right now it's Elder Scrolls Onlnie.  Wow seemed to be the first big name game to be cool to hate, then it became SWTOR (which I think was warranted considering how horrible it was) and now it's ESO.  It seems, kind of like big political and religious figures, that a community just loves to tear down, bash and hate on a big name.  I'll admit, there are quite a few design decisions that made me question the game as well and feel some anger towards it, and I still do to a degree, but kind of going into it with more of an open mind and not already deciding to hate it before trying I can say I was very pleasantly surprised with the game.

 

Now I'm wondering just how much of this hate is really from people who have played it and honestly dislike it, or just from people jumping on the "ESO is going to fail so hard and is crap!" bandwagon.  It's very curious how the community seems to pick everything apart about the game like that it's way too themepark, but at the same time applauds games like Wildstar (ranked most anticipated of 2014 on this site for example) which is 100% themepark.  Or picks apart the payment model with articles from Forbes about the sure doom of the game because of the subscription (when Wildstar also has announced the same model, FFXIV seems to be doing fine with a subscription and so has wow).  Or that the NDA hasn't been dropped yet so it MUST mean it's a horrible game (even though almost all mmo's have kept their NDA's up through the closed beta process).  The examples go on and on, it's like the community as a whole is looking for whatever reasons they can find to detest it and are holding the game to a standard that they are not holding other mmo's up to. 

 

Many of the hateful posts I have seen are filled with misinformation, exaggeration, ignorance, or doom and gloom and nothing else - which really comes across as people having no real experience with the game.  Now certainly some of the negativity is legitimate and from people who have tried it and decided they didn't like it - kudos to those people.  But overall it really just seems ESO is just the cool mmo to hate on right now. 

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Comments

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon

    Yup all the cool kids are doing it... and most are lying about one thing or another.... or posturing as being a TRUE TES fan or a true MMOer...which is just the usual cheap ploy to preemptively dismiss anyone who disagrees...

     

    Bottom line though, who should actually give a shit? Are gamers that insecure that they won't play something unless several random anonymous posers give it their seal of approval?

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 20,008Member Uncommon

    If you've actually tried this game, via one of the betas, you're not allowed to say anything about it.

    All titles draw detractors, this one is next on the radar to launch, expect discussion including hate to ramp up as we get closer to April.

    Once it launches it will quickly fall off the grid while attention is focused on the next title coming up.

    It's the "circle of life" here on MMORPG.com

     

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • cnutempcnutemp Fairfax, VAPosts: 229Member Uncommon

    While there is a lot of un-necessary hate.  The majority of this stems from the clain that ESO is your typical quest hub grinder that brings nothing new to the table except 'better wvwvw than guild wars 2' which at this point is only a claim. (we wont know until the game is released).  Combine this will the 200+ million dollar development costs and this game seems an awful lot like swtor only to shoot for a segement of the gaming market that is already heavily saturated (quest hub grinders with dailies and raids)

    If the development costs were smaller you OR if it brought something new / appealed to a more non-saturated blend of mmo market share you would not see so many doomsday posts.

  • AtadisAtadis Richland, MSPosts: 56Member
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Bottom line though, who should actually give a shit? Are gamers that insecure that they won't play something unless several random anonymous posers give it their seal of approval?

    Yes this is exactly the issue they are just that insecure which is why I dislike some of our community. No one person can enjoy something without everyone else having to like it as well or you're just a pariah I hate it!

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cnutemp

    While there is a lot of un-necessary hate.  The majority of this stems from the clain that ESO is your typical quest hub grinder that brings nothing new to the table except 'better wvwvw than guild wars 2' which at this point is only a claim. (we wont know until the game is released).  Combine this will the 200+ million dollar development costs and this game seems an awful lot like swtor only to shoot for a segement of the gaming market that is already heavily saturated (quest hub grinders with dailies and raids)

    If the development costs were smaller you OR if it brought something new / appealed to a more non-saturated blend of mmo market share you would not see so many doomsday posts.

    You take an outlandish opinion, mix in an unsubstantiated internet rumor, add a dash of cliche and a sprinkle of uneducated guessing an what do you get? Why a typical, mmorpg.com post of course.

  • ElikalElikal ValhallaPosts: 7,906Member Uncommon

    Alas I can not comment yet.

    Hate is surely not warrented, but there ARE some serious issues. I leave it at that for now.

    People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert

  • cnutempcnutemp Fairfax, VAPosts: 229Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by cnutemp

    While there is a lot of un-necessary hate.  The majority of this stems from the clain that ESO is your typical quest hub grinder that brings nothing new to the table except 'better wvwvw than guild wars 2' which at this point is only a claim. (we wont know until the game is released).  Combine this will the 200+ million dollar development costs and this game seems an awful lot like swtor only to shoot for a segement of the gaming market that is already heavily saturated (quest hub grinders with dailies and raids)

    If the development costs were smaller you OR if it brought something new / appealed to a more non-saturated blend of mmo market share you would not see so many doomsday posts.

    You take an outlandish opinion, mix in an unsubstantiated internet rumor, add a dash of cliche and a sprinkle of uneducated guessing an what do you get? Why a typical, mmorpg.com post of course.

    200+ million dollar development costs

    Say, what you want but the details in my post are the reason for all the hate true, the 200+ dollar cost is just a rumor, im not debating if its true or not im telling you why there are tons of doomsday posts.

     

    brings nothing new to the table

    I haven't been following ESO so I don't know fully what the game offers, again im just telling you what I see from the posts on this forum.  If I am wrong and the game does bring something new other than the IP, can you elaborate?

     

    already heavily saturated

    Are you saying there are not a lot of mmo's that already do quest hubs / raids dailies?  Because you would be wrong.

     

  • -aLpHa--aLpHa- KrefeldPosts: 852Member

    Elder Scrolls just had it's first weekend beta with allot people participating, so the increase of actual eyes on the product is related to the amount of negative post that are currently made.

    That and it's seems to generate allot of negativity because it's not what people expected from a triple A product they where maybe looking forward too. I am pretty sure it is that simple, people are disappointed and want to get rid of their frustration by venting on the forum.

  • coventryhagdogcoventryhagdog TaipeiPosts: 85Member

    It's not cool to hate.

    GW2 is cool to hate.

    ESO.. well.. it has some very serious issues and in its current state does not seem to be all too ... good.

    They'll have to pull a rabbit out of the hat for this one to work in the next 3-4 months. 

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,616Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cnutemp
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by cnutemp

    While there is a lot of un-necessary hate.  The majority of this stems from the clain that ESO is your typical quest hub grinder that brings nothing new to the table except 'better wvwvw than guild wars 2' which at this point is only a claim. (we wont know until the game is released).  Combine this will the 200+ million dollar development costs and this game seems an awful lot like swtor only to shoot for a segement of the gaming market that is already heavily saturated (quest hub grinders with dailies and raids)

    If the development costs were smaller you OR if it brought something new / appealed to a more non-saturated blend of mmo market share you would not see so many doomsday posts.

    You take an outlandish opinion, mix in an unsubstantiated internet rumor, add a dash of cliche and a sprinkle of uneducated guessing an what do you get? Why a typical, mmorpg.com post of course.

    200+ million dollar development costs

    Say, what you want but the details in my post are the reason for all the hate true, the 200+ dollar cost is just a rumor, im not debating if its true or not im telling you why there are tons of doomsday posts.

     

    brings nothing new to the table

    I haven't been following ESO so I don't know fully what the game offers, again im just telling you what I see from the posts on this forum.  If I am wrong and the game does bring something new other than the IP, can you elaborate?

     

    already heavily saturated

    Are you saying there are not a lot of mmo's that already do quest hubs / raids dailies?  Because you would be wrong.

     

    You don't have to wait for the NDA to lift to find out something about this game: http://tamrielfoundry.com/

     

    As to heavily saturated.... heavily funded would be another way of putting it... for some strange reason people seem to like that...go figure! There are ever increasing numbers of players, new and old, playing them. Saturation to me implies that there is no more room for a new one. Market watchers and MMO developers would beg to differ on that point.

     

    What actually happens is that if you want to be dismissive about an MMO you emphasize the similarities to what is cool not to like (anything not sandbox open world) and dismiss the new twists and innovations...

     

    Wildstar, EQN, ESO... are all a mixture of old and new concepts.... random MMO X from left field funded through some dodgy scheme is totally, radically new... that's why they're the cool ones to praise: it makes the fan of those seem ever so much on the cutting edge of MMO taste... it's what the connoisseurs are all drinking this year dontchaknow.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Haters are gonna hate. Whiteknights are going to gush and defend. I love how neither side can seem to keep their NDA intact even after Mike B posted a huge ALL CAPS thread in this very forum as a reminder.
  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,538Member Uncommon

    Won't comment on the game either way. 

    But I can offer a possible (probable?) reason why ESO, being themepark, is getting so much 'hate', while another upcoming themepark - Wildstar - seems to be getting a lot of praise - or at least less hate.

    Put simply: ESO is based on a long-running, familiar IP that many people are huge fans of. People have very specific expectations of "what an Elder Scrolls game is supposed to be". Many would prefer no MMO ever be made out of it. So, you're dealing with an established IP that people become very protective of and have very strong opinions about - whether they have any grounds to or not.

    Wildstar, on the other hand, is brand-new. It has no existing IP or previous games it's being based on. So, everything people see about it is new and there's nothing to compare it against. Wildstar will be establishing a new universe/IP, not expanding on it like ESO. So, there's nothing for people to be "protective" about.

    At least that would be my guess as to why there seems to be that double-standard.

     

    I will agree, though, that there is the typical cycle all new MMOs go through. Which ever one is the biggest blip on people's radar tends to get the most attention (ie. "hate").

     

  • LyrianLyrian Posts: 294Member Uncommon

    I think there is a combination of issues that are going on for ESO's case.

    We have the detractors that are 'leaking things or are stating reasons why they are unimpressed' from beta activity and events via the forums or videos. I think I saw a comparison somewhere of a leaker comparing SWTOR to ESO and indicating that SWTOR was the better product before it was taken down.

    It has the big IP: Many people are expecting a product that is on par with Skyrim and now that there is a little bit more information available the bubble is popping and they aren't quite happy with what they see.

    The subscription model: this can be seen as a greedy cash grab by those already disillusioned with what they've seen from the game. They see more of the same mistakes that we've seen before with other MMOs and are stuck again in the cycle of frustration that we are all feeling. This time it's another game, another failure. It's enough to drive a person insane.

    Having watched dozens of videos over the last day (Currently making my way back onto day shifts and since I don't have anything to play...:( ) I've been marathoning ESO and wildstar videos and dev speaks. What I've seen so far on Wildstar's end makes me feel much more willing to drop money for the box and a subscription than what I've seen coming out of ESO.

  • reeereeereeereee Posts: 1,203Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by cnutemp
    Originally posted by Iselin
    Originally posted by cnutemp

    While there is a lot of un-necessary hate.  The majority of this stems from the clain that ESO is your typical quest hub grinder that brings nothing new to the table except 'better wvwvw than guild wars 2' which at this point is only a claim. (we wont know until the game is released).  Combine this will the 200+ million dollar development costs and this game seems an awful lot like swtor only to shoot for a segement of the gaming market that is already heavily saturated (quest hub grinders with dailies and raids)

    If the development costs were smaller you OR if it brought something new / appealed to a more non-saturated blend of mmo market share you would not see so many doomsday posts.

    You take an outlandish opinion, mix in an unsubstantiated internet rumor, add a dash of cliche and a sprinkle of uneducated guessing an what do you get? Why a typical, mmorpg.com post of course.

    200+ million dollar development costs

    Say, what you want but the details in my post are the reason for all the hate true, the 200+ dollar cost is just a rumor, im not debating if its true or not im telling you why there are tons of doomsday posts.

     

    brings nothing new to the table

    I haven't been following ESO so I don't know fully what the game offers, again im just telling you what I see from the posts on this forum.  If I am wrong and the game does bring something new other than the IP, can you elaborate?

     

    already heavily saturated

    Are you saying there are not a lot of mmo's that already do quest hubs / raids dailies?  Because you would be wrong.

     

    While your technically correct, ESO has the advantage of the games that are releasing around it.  The only real AAA release of 2014 was FFXIV:ARR and the only other AAA mmo likely to manage to be released in 2014 is Wildstar.  Both of which are such pure unadulterated WoW clone that they make ESO look daring and innovative by comparison.

     

    Perhaps if ESO had to go head to head with big budget games that were also bringing a lot of cool new ideas to the market they would be in trouble, but really, you're looking at 2016 for those. 

  • MizzoufanMizzoufan Columbia, MOPosts: 280Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Atadis
    Originally posted by Iselin

    Bottom line though, who should actually give a shit? Are gamers that insecure that they won't play something unless several random anonymous posers give it their seal of approval?

    Yes this is exactly the issue they are just that insecure which is why I dislike some of our community. No one person can enjoy something without everyone else having to like it as well or you're just a pariah I hate it!

    This and that. Spot on.

    image
  • HardangerHardanger Appleton, WIPosts: 226Member

    That's definitely the way it seems to go around here.

     

     

    Personally, I think I've finally arrived at a healthy place in terms of hype.  I take mild interest in things that seems interesting, be aware of what's actually new or different (rather than just gimmicks), and be cautiously optimistic from a great distance.

    image

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by cnutemp

    While there is a lot of un-necessary hate.  The majority of this stems from the clain that ESO is your typical quest hub grinder that brings nothing new to the table except 'better wvwvw than guild wars 2' which at this point is only a claim. (we wont know until the game is released).  Combine this will the 200+ million dollar development costs and this game seems an awful lot like swtor only to shoot for a segement of the gaming market that is already heavily saturated (quest hub grinders with dailies and raids)

    If the development costs were smaller you OR if it brought something new / appealed to a more non-saturated blend of mmo market share you would not see so many doomsday posts.

    Thing is all of those things could be said of WildStar even more in fact but that isn't drawing the same kind of hate. Can't go into details but a lot of the complaints I've read on forums are ridiculously overblown. It does seem like "the game that's cool to hate" right now.

     

  • Tindale111Tindale111 croydonPosts: 197Member
    Originally posted by -aLpHa-

    Elder Scrolls just had it's first weekend beta with allot people participating, so the increase of actual eyes on the product is related to the amount of negative post that are currently made.

    That and it's seems to generate allot of negativity because it's not what people expected from a triple A product they where maybe looking forward too. I am pretty sure it is that simple, people are disappointed and want to get rid of their frustration by venting on the forum.

    while what you say is true, its only the haters that are going to have their say because if they hate it they don't care if they get banned for breaking NDA. for the people who like it they cant say anything because they want to play and not get banned so this is all very one sided

  • thecapitainethecapitaine West Chester, PAPosts: 401Member Uncommon

    The ESO hate is just the latest example of how things go around here.  People have a vested interest in seeing certain games fail because it allows them the opportunity to point a finger and say, "See, I was right."  Take SWTOR.  Its performance was underwhelming and instead of it being seen as the result of a cascade failure of missing features, engine problems, poorly executed game mechanics, and a failure to address these problems quickly enough, the narrative becomes "Subs are fail" or "Themeparks suck."

     

    ESO will be the same if it does poorly.  People are chomping at the bit to use it to declare the death of subs, themeparks, big IPs, casuals, instances, questing, large budgets, AvA pvp, console MMOs, dark elves, and you-name-it.

  • MacroPlanetMacroPlanet Posts: 1,068Member Uncommon

    I've been in this genre for too long and in more than a handful of betas and they all play out the same.  Once all of the negative feedback start coming out when beta starts; it usually is a sign that the game is not what it is cracked up to be.

     

    I've seen it happen to Shadowbane, to Vanguard, to Age of Conan and FFXIV (1.0), etc...

     

    Without saying too much; TESO is a mmorpg that is out to sell boxes, not subscriptions.

  • InktomiInktomi merrick, NYPosts: 663Member

    I'm not saying a word as I am still under NDA and in the latest closed beta. But will I will say is that if they put that money (supposedly 200 million dorrahs) into Elder Scrolls VI, it would have been incredible. 

    I actually put it on my blog that ESO would be a great game and I am prepared to eat my words.

     

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Ahh, another "you cant have an opinion other than one that thinks the game is good" thread.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • MikeBMikeB MMORPG.com Community Manager Queens, NYPosts: 5,724Administrator Uncommon
    Guys, NDA is in effect. I've had to clean up a ton of stuff in this thread already. There is a sticky thread in this forum informing users not to violate NDA. Consider that sticky your warning. If you can't have this conversation without breaking NDA then I will have to go ahead and lock this thread.

    Michael "MikeB" Bitton
    Community Manager
    Twitter: @eMikeB

  • JjixJjix Boston, MAPosts: 141Member
    Originally posted by thecapitaine

    The ESO hate is just the latest example of how things go around here.  People have a vested interest in seeing certain games fail because it allows them the opportunity to point a finger and say, "See, I was right."  Take SWTOR.  Its performance was underwhelming and instead of it being seen as the result of a cascade failure of missing features, engine problems, poorly executed game mechanics, and a failure to address these problems quickly enough, the narrative becomes "Subs are fail" or "Themeparks suck."

     

    ESO will be the same if it does poorly.  People are chomping at the bit to use it to declare the death of subs, themeparks, big IPs, casuals, instances, questing, large budgets, AvA pvp, console MMOs, dark elves, and you-name-it.

    If ESO does well, I will accept the reality that the design philosophies behind it are far from dead. I won't pretend its success is due to something entirely unrelated to those design philosophies, like "smooth launch" or some nonsense.

    Yet, on the other hand, if it fails, I will be glad that those design philosophies failed yet again. Will that stop fans of those philosophies from blaming its failure on bugs and engine problems? Will it stop them from beating up on themepark detractors as just "haters" who are trying to be cool? Will it stop them from claiming that the new generation of gamers are all that matter and they want themepark and that everyone else is an old fart? Will it stop them from insisting that the problem was that it wasn't themepark enough? Will it stop them from insisting it was a success even when it wasn't?! Will it stop them from hating on the mmorpg.com community?!! No. Of course not.

    But at least if it fails there is a chance that things will turn around from the themepark model. If it succeeds, that chance begins to evaporate. Of course, it should be possible for all types of games of all types of flavors to be made, for everyone to play the type of game they want to play. But the reality seems to be that the industry seeks stability and tried and tested formulas for AAA games. Thus it does become a bit political the manner of shape those formulas take, and the success or failure of each AAA game plays into that equation.

  • -aLpHa--aLpHa- KrefeldPosts: 852Member


    Originally posted by Jjix
    Originally posted by thecapitaine The ESO hate is just the latest example of how things go around here.  People have a vested interest in seeing certain games fail because it allows them the opportunity to point a finger and say, "See, I was right."  Take SWTOR.  Its performance was underwhelming and instead of it being seen as the result of a cascade failure of missing features, engine problems, poorly executed game mechanics, and a failure to address these problems quickly enough, the narrative becomes "Subs are fail" or "Themeparks suck."   ESO will be the same if it does poorly.  People are chomping at the bit to use it to declare the death of subs, themeparks, big IPs, casuals, instances, questing, large budgets, AvA pvp, console MMOs, dark elves, and you-name-it.
    If ESO does well, I will accept the reality that the design philosophies behind it are far from dead. I won't pretend its success is due to something entirely unrelated to those design philosophies, like "smooth launch" or some nonsense.

    Yet, on the other hand, if it fails, I will be glad that those design philosophies failed yet again. Will that stop fans of those philosophies from blaming its failure on bugs and engine problems? Will it stop them from beating up on themepark detractors as just "haters" who are trying to be cool? Will it stop them from claiming that the new generation of gamers are all that matter and they want themepark and that everyone else is an old fart? Will it stop them from insisting that the problem was that it wasn't themepark enough? Will it stop them from insisting it was a success even when it wasn't?! Will it stop them from hating on the mmorpg.com community?!! No. Of course not.

    But at least if it fails there is a chance that things will turn around from the themepark model. If it succeeds, that chance begins to evaporate. Of course, it should be possible for all types of games of all types of flavors to be made, for everyone to play the type of game they want to play. But the reality seems to be that the industry seeks stability and tried and tested formulas for AAA games. Thus it does become a bit political the manner of shape those formulas take, and the success or failure of each AAA game plays into that equation.


    The only thing that it will show is that the developers weren't executing good enough (they fucked up).

    The general concept won't die any time soon.

    But of course you can blame it on whatever you wan't, it is your prerogative.

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