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Why is PvP being focused on so much in an Elder Scrolls MMO?

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  • -aLpHa--aLpHa- KrefeldPosts: 852Member


    Originally posted by evilastro

    Originally posted by -aLpHa-  

    Originally posted by evilastro

    Originally posted by Vidir There is still way to much focus on pvp wich has during the years allways result in class nerf to pleas the pvp whiners,this hurts every pve game on the market.
        I cant think of a single MMO in the past 8 years that hasn't balanced how skills work in PvP and PvE completely separately. Care to give us an example?
      Guild Wars 1 (if you consider it a MMO). They had skills work differently in PVP and PVE.
     

    I asked which games hadn't taken the approach of separating PvP balance and PvE balance. GW1 did, so it proves my point. I think you misread what I wrote.  

    In every single MMO I have played, skills change when they are used in PvP, and they can update how they work in PvP without affecting PvE in any way shape or form.


    Yeah, sorry i misread your post. I thought you wrote the exact opposite but after reading it 2 more times i got it, happens when English ain't your primary language.

    And you are correct, most spells get tweaked when used in PVP, especially the CC spells get nerfed in PVP situations.

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Simply put, there are far more gamers outside the west. These gamers pvp. Besides that how many ways is there to do a quest, or to make a boss? Judging by the recent failures of pve centric titles, pve has ran it's course and been explored to it's fullest potential. PvP, there's gold in them hills, oil shale maybe?
  • rutaqrutaq somerville, MAPosts: 428Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Vorthanion
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    There is more PvE content in the game then there is PvP. PvP or AvA as they call it is one hub of many in the game. Having a MMO today without a sold PvP plan is a fools move IMO. Sure there are some niche markets for a pure PvE game but you want too make real money you have something for everyone. Im more shocked there is no raids nor will there ever be by the devs current stand.

    pvp is the niche market where MMORPG's are concerned.  There is something about the RPG formula that makes people not want to lose loot or xp or any other sort of progression just because some random player kills them.  History has proven over and over just how niche pvp is in this genre.

    I think you are obsessing over what may people call Hardcore PvP that comes along with sting to losing like xp loss, item loss, destruction of Guild City,etc..    This is my favorite type of PvP but sadly this type has only shown up in a handful of MMOs less than ten that I can think of and almost none that launched in the last 5 years.

     

    So the "Traditional PvP" that you see 99% of the time has almost no sting to losing and most MMOs with PvP don't even allow you to fight unless you are in very controlled sterilized arena like environments.  

    History has proven that the Devs feel very strongly about including this niche since it is included in almost every game they make.  The PvP niche must be pretty big or spend TONs of money on the cash shops because at the end of the day It is a safe assumption that the reason to include PvP, PvE, Raids,etc. is all about making money.   

  • PhryPhry HampshirePosts: 6,289Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Simply put, there are far more gamers outside the west. These gamers pvp. Besides that how many ways is there to do a quest, or to make a boss? Judging by the recent failures of pve centric titles, pve has ran it's course and been explored to it's fullest potential. PvP, there's gold in them hills, oil shale maybe?

    Except that the only MMO's to focus on PvP have either been utter failures or niche games with limited appeal, but thats what happens when the gold in 'them there hills' turns out to be iron pyrites, of course, it has another name too, entirely appropriate that it is image

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Phry
    Originally posted by bcbully
    Simply put, there are far more gamers outside the west. These gamers pvp. Besides that how many ways is there to do a quest, or to make a boss? Judging by the recent failures of pve centric titles, pve has ran it's course and been explored to it's fullest potential. PvP, there's gold in them hills, oil shale maybe?

    Except that the only MMO's to focus on PvP have either been utter failures or niche games with limited appeal, but thats what happens when the gold in 'them there hills turns out to be iron pyrites, of course, it has another name too, entirely appropriate that is is image

    You are still looking from a very small perspective. There are FAR more gamers in the east. Those gamers pvp. Wushu in the east has done far better than the recent pve releases in the west. Western devs can't make a pve cenric mmorpg that western pve'rs like anyways. Why should they keep trying?

     

    The genre will move on with or without you guys. You don't want raids, you don't want fetch and kill quests, you don't listen to voice overs, you don't want progression. Why keep throwing billions your way? It just doesn't make since.

     

    edit - Do you know what 10 year old gamers are playing, Minecraft. You know what they are doing in minecraft, PvP. There is no way anyone will get that generation to set down and go from quest to quest to hear your story, or queue up to do some dungeon over and over. Change or get left behind.

  • wzombie777wzombie777 Sacramento, CAPosts: 12Member
    I dont see the point of this thread. Did anyone complain when WoW came out that it didnt play like its RTS predecessor?
  • DragimDragim Boring, KSPosts: 867Member
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Because it's basically the only thing to do at endgame? I'm not aware of much else after leveling.

    Exploring the 50+ and 50++ maps (they are huge), maxing crafting and gaining the special recipes, Dungeons in hard mode (and there are lots of them), also a type of events thats like raids but not. Will take a large number of players but wont focus on one giant boss mob with people standing in a circle hitting its feet. Also they will be adding the other guilds. Unlocking special skill lines (some are going to be very hard to get) This is a few I know off the top of my head.

    Yea, yea...yawn.

    Give me something static, give me an NPC mob that doesn't do the exact same thing every time I fight it.

    Whether it is WoW raiding, EQ raiding, or any other game raiding, the fact remains that the mobs do the exact same thing everytime you or anyone fights them.

    Thats why you go to youtube and watch videos before you fight, so you can "easily" win. --Yes I understand some raids are very difficult.  Believe me I have been there, granted not difficult for me personally, but for the overall group as a whole.  But none-the-less, the mob still does the exact same thing every time you fight it.

    -------

    And that is why I love PvP.  It is the ultimate challenge.  You don't know what they are going to do.  It changes every time.  You have to adjust and think on the fly.  That is why it is so fun.

    I am not a guy who has a big epeen in PvP.  In fact I am a very helpful and kind person, always helping people whether new or not.  I just love the challenge, the fight, the mayhem.

    PvP offers something that PvE just cannot, and that is the ultimate challenge.  Unknown enemy tactics, who knows if they are going to cast a fireball, root you, kite you, run, fight, be your friend, help you, hinder you, move left instead of right, jump over that wall and behind a tree or in circles.

    You just don't know!  And that is what makes it awesome.

    I am entitled to my opinions, misspellings, and grammatical errors.

  • rockin_uforockin_ufo St. Paul, MNPosts: 377Member Uncommon

    PvP is the biggest game in the world. League of Legends anybody?...

    Gamers love to be competitive. Hense gamers love to PvP. Sadly no MMO has done it right outside of Guild Wars 1 and maybe WoW.

    Whenever i step outside, somebody claims to see the light
    It seems to me that all of us have lost our patience.
    'cause everyone thinks they're right,
    And nobody thinks that there just might
    Be more than one road to our final destination--

  • RinnaRinna Las Vegas, NVPosts: 388Member
    This game should not market to PvPers.  I think the choice was idiotic as well. 

    No bitchers.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,441Member Uncommon

    Smartest thing they could do is not have ANY pvp,those players create controversy anyhow complaining about BALANCE.The developer would steadily be changing classes left and right trying to get it balanced and seems to never happen,nobody is completely happy until their class is the dominant pvp class.

    I say skip the cherades and just focus on group PVE,make the classes exciting and fun to play and keep the combat fresh.There is a fair number of people looking for a new pve game to play,give them a decent game and you make a profit.Try to cater to everyone and both pvp and PVE suffer and ends up a bad omen for profits.


    Samoan Diamond

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    Most people are bored with themepark PvE content as no matter how you dress it up it boils down to the same set of fetch quests, dungeon runs, raid encounters etc. Personally I can barely stand to play through another game's typical PvE grind.

     

    Now I think if they really wanted to capture Elder Scrolls they should have made it sandbox but they didn't have the guts to try that so at least PvP focused MMOs haven't been done to death recently.

     

     

  • rodingorodingo Posts: 2,346Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Smartest thing they could do is not have ANY pvp,those players create controversy anyhow complaining about BALANCE.The developer would steadily be changing classes left and right trying to get it balanced and seems to never happen,nobody is completely happy until their class is the dominant pvp class.

    I say skip the cherades and just focus on group PVE,make the classes exciting and fun to play and keep the combat fresh.There is a fair number of people looking for a new pve game to play,give them a decent game and you make a profit.Try to cater to everyone and both pvp and PVE suffer and ends up a bad omen for profits.

    I will have to disagree.  PVP is almost expected in MMOs now a days.  It's definitely something I look for since I could care less about raids.  I know I'm not the only one who feels this way.  PVP is the endgame choice of many players now a days.  Besides, if they didn't add PVP you know that would give people even more ammo to bitch about this game.  I myself will not be playing it most likely, but for reasons that have nothing do with their versions of PVP or how their combat works.  I will just read the back and forth comments from fans and haters while I  enjoy Skyrim.

    "If I offended you, you needed it" -Corey Taylor

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Razeekster

    What is the Elder Scrolls IP so well known for and what do the fans love about the Elder Scrolls? The great PvE. So why is PvP being focused on so much?! I don't understand why Zenimax is making the incredibly unintelligent choice of totally ignoring the core player base of the Elder Scrolls' gamers.

     Because its the only type of game the developers know how to design. Rather simple really, Frior is one of the few game makers in the industry that doesn't actually learn new forms of game design. I would actually have to do some research to find another game creator that is going for the exact same design a second time other than yet another DaoC maker, Jacobs who is actually going for 3 MMOs in a row with the exact same design.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • BloodaxesBloodaxes ZabbarPosts: 2,651Member Uncommon

    You know they had to change the lore of elder scrolls so they could fit pvp in the online game right?

    image

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dragim
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Roxtarr
    Because it's basically the only thing to do at endgame? I'm not aware of much else after leveling.

    Exploring the 50+ and 50++ maps (they are huge), maxing crafting and gaining the special recipes, Dungeons in hard mode (and there are lots of them), also a type of events thats like raids but not. Will take a large number of players but wont focus on one giant boss mob with people standing in a circle hitting its feet. Also they will be adding the other guilds. Unlocking special skill lines (some are going to be very hard to get) This is a few I know off the top of my head.

    Yea, yea...yawn.

    Give me something static, give me an NPC mob that doesn't do the exact same thing every time I fight it.

    Whether it is WoW raiding, EQ raiding, or any other game raiding, the fact remains that the mobs do the exact same thing everytime you or anyone fights them.

    Thats why you go to youtube and watch videos before you fight, so you can "easily" win. --Yes I understand some raids are very difficult.  Believe me I have been there, granted not difficult for me personally, but for the overall group as a whole.  But none-the-less, the mob still does the exact same thing every time you fight it.

    -------

    And that is why I love PvP.  It is the ultimate challenge.  You don't know what they are going to do.  It changes every time.  You have to adjust and think on the fly.  That is why it is so fun.

    I am not a guy who has a big epeen in PvP.  In fact I am a very helpful and kind person, always helping people whether new or not.  I just love the challenge, the fight, the mayhem.

    PvP offers something that PvE just cannot, and that is the ultimate challenge.  Unknown enemy tactics, who knows if they are going to cast a fireball, root you, kite you, run, fight, be your friend, help you, hinder you, move left instead of right, jump over that wall and behind a tree or in circles.

    You just don't know!  And that is what makes it awesome.

    That alone tells me you dont know much about this game. Go look up NPC interaction in ESO. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Bloodaxes

    You know they had to change the lore of elder scrolls so they could fit pvp in the online game right?

    Nope... different part of history. Much like RL alliances come and go. Countries that fought together later killed each other or in some cases wiped the other out. This is how real history works. Do you think faction should have every nation always friends with one another? That would be watered down story telling.


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • KirinRahlKirinRahl New Smyrna Beach, FLPosts: 153Member
    Originally posted by Wizardry

    Smartest thing they could do is not have ANY pvp,those players create controversy anyhow complaining about BALANCE.

     

    This is patently false.

     

    Absolutely everyone bitches about balance, even in PvE-only games.  Balance is rarely perfect, and when it is, it's generally also pretty boring.

     

    PvP people don't make this problem, people do.  The grass is always greener.  And sometimes classes are just better; I mean, if you played WAR and wanted to do great DPS, you played a Bright Wizard and that's all there was to it, even if you never set foot in PvP.

  • RazeeksterRazeekster Solon, MEPosts: 2,201Member Uncommon

    Okay so I edited my comment that someone said I was breaking the NDA with (even though that same person ignored the person before me that did the same exact thing simply because that person actually agreed with their opinion...).

     

    Anyways, to the topic: The main excuse (and yes it is an excuse) that I've seen for PvP in TESO is because no other AAA+ MMMORPG has not had PvP. That isn't a reason... That's just a bad excuse.

     

    Is PvP even remotely popular in most MMORPGs? No, not really, if you're going to be honest with yourself. It's just a feature added to try and interest certain players to inflate a game's player base. That's literally all I've seen it as because I've never seen a MMORPG that was just 100% PvP and was actually successful.

     

    Also, for those saying that there are a lot of PvE features, why does it sound like it's all at endgame? Elder Scrolls games have never been about reaching endgame as fast as possible... It was about meandering about and doing whatever the flip you felt like. Now it sounds like that's been changed to "rush to endgame as fast as humanely possible."

     

    Why is it that TESO seems like it is releasing more info on a tiny part of the game (if I see another article about the "Emperor" I swear...) than the main part of their game? Is the main part of their game not interesting enough to receive any article write-ups and is that why it seems like recently the major focus has been on the PvP?

    Smile

  • TheodwulfTheodwulf Brockton, MAPosts: 231Member Uncommon
    PvP is easy dynamic content IF they lay it out. Even a bad PvP system will keep people playing another month or more.
  • BloodaxesBloodaxes ZabbarPosts: 2,651Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Bloodaxes

    You know they had to change the lore of elder scrolls so they could fit pvp in the online game right?

    Nope... different part of history. Much like RL alliances come and go. Countries that fought together later killed each other or in some cases wiped the other out. This is how real history works. Do you think faction should have every nation always friends with one another? That would be watered down story telling.

    Not going to comment on your real life analisis as this is a game with a huge lore behind it, not invented out of thin air... I'll put a link on how the lore is being played/changed/invented with so they can do whatever they want.

    http://www.shadowlocked.com/201205082608/features/8-reasons-why-the-elder-scrolls-online-has-had-its-time.html

    Now don't mind all the points I'm referring to the first few points discussing in detail about how some of the online version has changed the lore and for some people me included not in the best.

    I understand people want some pvp and they could have did something akin to the fighter's guild arena where you can join them and be able to confront people solo or in teams in a fight to the death but noooo let's change lore to add meaningless pvp....

    I'm kinda biased as I'm not a pvp guy but I still remember and liked oblivion's arena quest where you fight again other enemies each round getting tougher and tougher, it had a meaning not just to satisfy people.

    image

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Bloodaxes

    You know they had to change the lore of elder scrolls so they could fit pvp in the online game right?

    Nope... different part of history. Much like RL alliances come and go. Countries that fought together later killed each other or in some cases wiped the other out. This is how real history works. Do you think faction should have every nation always friends with one another? That would be watered down story telling.

     Yes, you clearly never played Marrowind. The only attack on the empires lands after the fall of the last protector was stopped at the gates of the City of Marrowind never reaching the Empires lands. Even with the changes made to most of the TES lore sites where they added some of TESOs story it STILL states that it is Septim that unites lands from the OLD remnants of the Empire......not by beating the empire of Leogalsszs or shotnurface.

    Its just more proof they are trying to twist the IP to the game, instead of making a game that fits the IP.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • NanfoodleNanfoodle Posts: 5,447Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by Bloodaxes

    You know they had to change the lore of elder scrolls so they could fit pvp in the online game right?

    Nope... different part of history. Much like RL alliances come and go. Countries that fought together later killed each other or in some cases wiped the other out. This is how real history works. Do you think faction should have every nation always friends with one another? That would be watered down story telling.

     Yes, you clearly never played Marrowind. The only attack on the empires lands after the fall of the last protector was stopped at the gates of the City of Marrowind never reaching the Empires lands. Even with the changes made to most of the TES lore sites where they added some of TESOs story it STILL states that it is Septim that unites lands from the OLD remnants of the Empire......not by beating the empire of Leogalsszs or shotnurface.

    Its just more proof they are trying to twist the IP to the game, instead of making a game that fits the IP.

    Okay... but show me a story thats been ongoing as long as TES that covered medium as far as books, comics, video games and now MMOs that has not had its lore changed and changed again and again. Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr Who... I could go on and no. Lore monster can be helpful or hurtful. In the case of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles new movie, they were helpful. LOL. Sometimes you need to roll with things. I wish I could comment more freely. 


    =-D Only on a forum can optimism be called bad and pessimism the good thing =-D Welcome to the internet and forums. 


  • ReklawReklaw Am.Posts: 6,476Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Razeekster

    What is the Elder Scrolls IP so well known for and what do the fans love about the Elder Scrolls? The great PvE. So why is PvP being focused on so much?! I don't understand why Zenimax is making the incredibly unintelligent choice of totally ignoring the core player base of the Elder Scrolls' gamers. Most of us didn't play the Elder Scrolls' titles for it's PvP because it simply didn't exist.

     

    We played it for it's awesome PvE experience which hasn't really even been highlighted at all in any articles or news info for TESO so I can only assume that an incredible PvE experience simply doesn't exist within TESO.

    I just wished that these "fan" of the Elder Scroll series would actually know AND understand why they love the games so much.

    If you actually know what it is that makes the Elder Scrolls series great then you should also know story in the way it's done in singleplayer games simply can not be done that way.

    So as a fan of the elder scrolls I actually am very glad we don't get another SWtOR with it's story that have zero effect on the gameworld. Finaly we can as players effect atleast a part of the game world where the PVE part still is larger then the PVP zone.

    If I want a Elder Scrolls singleplayer experiance I just wait till Bethesda decides to make another one in the serie.

    Really don't understand these type of topics. But maybe some people don't really know why they love the Elder Scrolls. 

    Unless OP has some grand never thought of  idea about how to make thousands if not millions of people actually effect the game world like we can in our singleplayer ES games with pure PVE.

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by Razeekster

    Okay so I edited my comment that someone said I was breaking the NDA with (even though that same person ignored the person before me that did the same exact thing simply because that person actually agreed with their opinion...).

     

    Anyways, to the topic: The main excuse (and yes it is an excuse) that I've seen for PvP in TESO is because no other AAA+ MMMORPG has not had PvP. That isn't a reason... That's just a bad excuse.

     

    Is PvP even remotely popular in most MMORPGs? No, not really, if you're going to be honest with yourself. It's just a feature added to try and interest certain players to inflate a game's player base. That's literally all I've seen it as because I've never seen a MMORPG that was just 100% PvP and was actually successful.

     

    Also, for those saying that there are a lot of PvE features, why does it sound like it's all at endgame? Elder Scrolls games have never been about reaching endgame as fast as possible... It was about meandering about and doing whatever the flip you felt like. Now it sounds like that's been changed to "rush to endgame as fast as humanely possible."

     

    Why is it that TESO seems like it is releasing more info on a tiny part of the game (if I see another article about the "Emperor" I swear...) than the main part of their game? Is the main part of their game not interesting enough to receive any article write-ups and is that why it seems like recently the major focus has been on the PvP?

     

    Is PvP even remotely popular in most MMOs?  Well in WoW - you know the most popular MMO in existence - there are more high population PvP servers than PvE servers, so yes, I would say that PvP is fairly popular.  And that is open-world PvP, many people on the PvE servers also participate in battlegrounds and arenas.

    But going back to the server populations, even if you somehow think its just an added feature - more people choose to play on open-world PvP servers than PvE.

    Not to mention League of Legends.

    Also the entire premise and story of the Elder Scrolls Online is about the conflict between the three regions over the central area, where the throne is now for the taking. Its as if you are being wilfully ignorant.  This background information was known like 2 years ago when they released the first trailer, you should not be even remotely surprised that the game has a PvP focus. In fact the 3 realm thing was the very first thing they talked about when they started announcing this game.  If that didn't appeal to you, then why are you still following it?

    It needs no excuse, the entire premise of the game is about who controls Cyrodill. If that doesn't interest you then play Skyrim or another single player game instead.

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nanfoodle
    Originally posted by JJ82

     Yes, you clearly never played Marrowind. The only attack on the empires lands after the fall of the last protector was stopped at the gates of the City of Marrowind never reaching the Empires lands. Even with the changes made to most of the TES lore sites where they added some of TESOs story it STILL states that it is Septim that unites lands from the OLD remnants of the Empire......not by beating the empire of Leogalsszs or shotnurface.

    Its just more proof they are trying to twist the IP to the game, instead of making a game that fits the IP.

    Okay... but show me a story thats been ongoing as long as TES that covered medium as far as books, comics, video games and now MMOs that has not had its lore changed and changed again and again. Star Trek, Star Wars, Dr Who... I could go on and no. Lore monster can be helpful or hurtful. In the case of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles new movie, they were helpful. LOL. Sometimes you need to roll with things. I wish I could comment more freely. 

     As bad as a game SWTOR was, it did not go against Star Wars canon.

    World of Warcraft did not break canon. (warcraft goes back to 94)

    Ultima Online did not break canon and that goes back to 1981

    D&DO did not break canon and D&Ds canon is by far the deepest of any IP in the world with over 1000 novels and 1000 more module stories. Its the same with Neverwinter, it does not break D&D canon.

    Look, I appreciate you being a fan of the DaoC model, but call it what it is and stop pretending to lessen the impact of its crapiness on this IP that never should have been used for the design. You design a game around the long standing IP, not the longstanding IP around the game.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

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