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Originally posted by greenreen Are there any MMOs that you have seen exploring group crafting?
Yes, and it died a miserable death (we just soloed the instances, instead).
EQII group crafting instances.
I don't think they'll go that path again, and left them for the die hard crafters.
Why? Because people are used to crafting solo. The only group crafting that's successful is during events, where it's a timed event and gone just as soon.
Would enjoy it again, but only when crafting is worth the effort, and not just a means for cheap PvP kills.
Originally posted by greenreen Well we need more of it, there are groups for everything else. Group character creation would probably be horrible though.
Ever seen a home woodworker in his shop work with a guy production style?
Ever seen grandma knit that bedspread with auntie?
Is that hunter in a tree stand waiting for a passing doe have Harry drinking 6 packs with him?
Crafting is a solitary pursuit for gamers who are self-starters and enjoy a different side of MMOs. Instead of big combat numbers, they like big gold signs. Instead of stroking epeens on an Armory, they prefer spreadsheets that document their costs and profits. They like to drink wine and eat cheese while going over their daily numbers, not wolf down Cheetos with sticky fingers before the next rush of 11111111111111111111111111 spam!
As a general rule, if you have a serious question of the form, "Has any game ever done X with crafting?", then the answer is probably, "Yes, A Tale in the Desert has." And that's true here, too.
While most crafting in ATITD is done solo, there are a handful of things that require a group. Cement and digging (for gypsum and bauxite) require multiple people until you get more advanced technology. I think flax gins always require two people. Marble excavation starts with four, and more advanced technology brings it down to three, then two.
The way that ATITD requires a group for marble is that each time you try to pull a piece of marble up, four people will each be given four options. The four options will vary from one pull to the next, but all four people will get exactly the same four options on a given pull. Those four options will, however, be sorted differently for different people. If each person picks a different option, you have a successful pull; if not, then the pull fails. I think it takes something like seven consecutive successful pulls to get a piece of marble. You only get so many pulls before the marble quarry collapses, and they're a pain to set up, so failed pulls are really bad.
The question is how to communicate who takes which option so that no two people pick the same choice, and without taking all day to communicate. Some people try to talk in chat for every pull. The strategy that I favored was sorting the options alphabetically, and having everyone know, this person takes the first option alphabetically, that person takes the second, and so forth.
The game has like 500 players, doesn't it?
I looked at it years ago and when I saw that you had to schedule in advance time with a stranger to learn new skills, mentor style, I realized the game pace will be slower than constipation. If Angie -- the only trainer in say, brownware pottery -- is online from 10am to 2pm, and I'm online from 12am to 6am, we'll never meet to train together.
How they set up crafting in that game is appealing, but like the EQII group scenarios showed, people stopped crafting in them when the novelty wore off; or if they had to wait for others to arrive to start it.
The problem is there isn't an mmo in existence that has done crafting right. If you could get crafting done right you would have the foundation set for group participation. Instead we have shitty crafting and games forcing people to link up against their will under the title "mentor program." A healthy guild will naturally form up crafter type people (it doesn't even need to be a crafting guild) if there is good crafting in place.
Let's talk good crafting. YOU MUST BE ABLE TO MAKE ITEMS THE COMMUNITY NEEDS for a decent crafting system. The items need to vary and LOOK GOOD. Most of all YOU ABSOLUTELY CANNOT BE ABLE TO BUY CRAFTED ITEMS OFF AN NPC!!! Crafting needs to not be complex. Not be a grind. But somewhat resemble a real life version of itself. Your crafted items must be the only ones of their kind in a game with nothing else resembling them or replacing them in value. They must be NEEDED not wanted for game advancement by other players.
If there ever is an mmo with a good crafting system in place gamers will naturally commune around it. But since that has never yet been done it's not possible to discuss something that has never yet happened.
Finally, games are not real life so STOP applying real life economic principles! Personal shops ruin game economy. Limitless auction house ruins game economy. Unlike real life a game's economy can be controlled and manipulated by the dev gods. Do not allow personal shops (it promotes greed and lags games). Humans cannot be trusted not to be greedy and even if everyone playing a game was a saint the gold sellers will come and ruin the economy anyway by over pricing everything. Don't let them. Make sure no one can charge more than 999 on the AH simply by not letting more than 3 digits appear on the board.
Yes FFXI but i did not like the idea at all and very few utilized the group aspect.What ended up happening was players would just solo it and let the problems of not having another player go by and hope they survive the craft.
I prefer crafting to just have a ton of depth so that players would need each other and creates a large market because it takes sooo much work the lazy players would prefer to just buy it than make it.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by greenreen I was thinking of it more like a structure where people put materials on a line then together they create something and each person gets a copy. Think of a billboard where in town I place an herb, someone else puts another herb and if we both agree, we create the item.
Already had that (take for example making inks, and I believe EQII players still shake their heads over that). Where it breaks down is trying to find people online making the parts you need.
In EQII for your master title, cloak and solstice earring, you had to ask around for master crafters in each profession. Masters are harder to find, because of this step!
I spent 3 days camping Teren's Grasp looking for masters, and frankly, wouldn't put an alt through that again. Low population; fewer crafters; even fewer masters = simply an obstacle there because the devs could do it.
Crafting simply isn't a pursuit that even welcomes dealing with the headaches seen in public groups, either. When you're concentrating on making 100 lumber, for example, the last thing you want or need is having Johnny Troll having a temper tantrum, because his crafting product isn't up as fast as he needs.
If you want that, find a job in a factory and get paid a salary, as now it's work.
It doesn't sound to me like this would be terrible if it's not done in the most simplistic possible manner.
Most of the issue I have with crafting in MMOs (and I have a lot of issues with it) revolve around the fact that it's a totally solitary pursuit for most which has lots of community interaction shoehorned into it. If you make leather, it makes horse sense that you should have to get a blacksmith to buy buckles and rivets, but that doesn't mean it doesn't suck ass to have to do so.
FFXIV's crafting has been interesting if only because there is some gameplay involved in crafting rather than mats + diceroll = thing, which is what basically every other system has. Also, you can have a few different sets of crafting gear that allow you to work your way through all the disciplines, and even has cross-disciplinary skills that make you a more flexible crafter when you've leveled every profession. That's super interesting, although the system itself is still fairly simplistic.
The other major thing I complain about is that simplistic nature I spoke of above; between the two of these things, the simplistic part is probably the big part.
Most crafting systems are ridiculously simple. The ones which aren't ridiculously simple are overwhelmingly, face-meltingly complex. There has been no middle ground and, when it comes down to it, very little actual effort towards making a system that is deep without being needlessly complicated.
In short, most crafting is straight-up status-quo stuff, with no real differentiation; add mats, press 'go', receive bacon is the way it generally works, which is a shame, since actually making things (I'm a minor-league blacksmith in actual fact) is fucking fascinating.