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Hot Topic: Black People in Fantasy theme games or lack there of...

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  • jesadjesad Posts: 753Member Uncommon

    Why there should always be an option.

      Star Legend (DC Universe Online)

     

    The Afro American (Fabrica de' Herois) Also googleable in City of Heroes.

    Jesad (Dungeons and Dragons Online) Also, Age of Conan, Vanguard, SWTOR and....

    Jesad (Everquest 2)

     

    And not only did I play those games, and those characters, and more, but I brought my friends to play them and ran guilds in a lot of them too.

    And if it's more important to a game to stick with their storyline than to make that comes with acknowledging me, even just a little bit, then whatever.  I'll find the one that can get both done responsibly.

    Just thinking about it, I was big on Wizardry right up until I got to character selection then....psssh...really?  And I went right to something else as soon as the game got boring, which didn't take long.

    See it's not just that picking someone that makes you feel good is the only thing, but it also helps keep you interested in times when you otherwise might not be.  A good product should try its best to marry the user to their avatar if possible, and you just can't get that by excluding the basics.

    image
  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    One thing I think you are missing is that MMOs have become very pared down over the years. So much has been removed for the sake of what has been called streamlining and is really killing off anything other than the most basic of gameplay. In such an environment we have lost roleplay tools, meaningful crafting, housing you name it. To expect MMOs to have many divergent human cultures is a bit of an ask. So the non white ones have gone to the wall.

    I was surprised to see ESO had three (?) human cultures, but then it is going to be P2P with the extra funding that involves. But in these days of stripping MMOs down to what companies see as the essentials we have lost way too much. After ESO I am not sure when we are going to have another MMO that bothers to have that many different human cultures.

  • MaquiameMaquiame Posts: 797Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot

    One thing I think you are missing is that MMOs have become very pared down over the years. So much has been removed for the sake of what has been called streamlining and is really killing off anything other than the most basic of gameplay. In such an environment we have lost roleplay tools, meaningful crafting, housing you name it. To expect MMOs to have many divergent human cultures is a bit of an ask. So the non white ones have gone to the wall.

    I was surprised to see ESO had three (?) human cultures, but then it is going to be P2P with the extra funding that involves. But in these days of stripping MMOs down to what companies see as the essentials we have lost way too much. After ESO I am not sure when we are going to have another MMO that bothers to have that many different human cultures.

    Actually not only do you have them in recent mmos but you will have them in upcoming mmos as well

     

    The Redguard have existed in the Elder Scrolls single player series so they are not new, the mmo has to put them in because people expect them. Of course they are starting to whitewash/arabize them too which was not the case in past Elder Scrolls games. Again trying to please that white male demographic who might feel "why do i have to play a black guy" - when the truth is that since the dawn of the Elder Scroll series - they were always black people. Amazing how three other pure white choices are simply not enough "rolls eyes*

     

    Pathfinder Online which is based off the pen and paper rp will have probably the largest set of human cultures (though probably not much in the actual mmo) due to the amount of varying human races. In the Pathfinder Universe there are two different black races, the tribal Mwangi and the Garundi a race closer to real life Songhai/Mali. There are also your East Indian, Arabian, Japanese, Chinese and other human race analogues. 

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  • MaquiameMaquiame Posts: 797Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means you would have a different culture?

    In most MMO's they are grouped by race: Dwarf, Human, Elf... not by skin color so once again, why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means different culture?

    The same way like in a movie like Thor its out of place -even to me- to see a black Heimdall or black people in the River Town in LOTRO. Because those seemed shoehored in just to be PC.

     

    No different of how it seems "shoehorned in" (and lazy mind you) to just have a black guy running around garbed in full medieval English tropes.

     

    Game devs should not be putting them in just to shut up the minorities. If you aren't going to do them right then keep it real like WoW did and don't put them in at all. As I explained in an earlier post actually putting in a seperate culture makes more sense financially. It adds to the depth of your game. Gives you an expansion into the exotic lands of Analogue- Asia/Africa/Arabia etc.  It adds greatly to the overall game design. 

    Making a black guy in England trope makes no money

     

    Making Guild Wars: Nightfall does

    Making an Asian guy in English tropes makes no money for the bottom line

     

    Making Guild Wars: Factions does.

    Both games did what they had to do, they added new classes, new stories, new weapons, new armors and new locales. They added to the overall game design. Certain things from both games would have not been in GW2. Their world was fleshed out because in the first game they set out to make a -world- not just one huge continent surrounded by water. It drew loyalty and fans.  I bought GW2 purely due to the wonderful game design that was GW: Nightfall. They made a fan out of me simply because they put in the care. I know asian players who have told me the same about Factions being the reason why they decided to buy GW2. I remember when I read their official wiki and found out about Kryta and how they hailed from Elonian colonists. Bottom line is that they treated their human race analogues with respect. Respect enough to make games about them. Respect enough that even in their first game the lead race were darkskinned people.

    And then in the second game they whitewashed them, threw them into the ocean and made the folk who had any semblance to them pirates and thieves, you dropped them into the ocean, severed the Elonian connection, whitewashed them and their ancestor race (the senator of the Elonian district looks nothing like an Elonian from Nightfall. Nothing at all). And they changed the story overall taking out any important semblance of the reasons why Kryta is -different- from any other main civilization from any mmo in history. 

    And you have not sold the same amount of copies of the game that you sold the first time around when you said screw the status quo. The writing in GW2 is terrible saturday morning trite. As shallow as a two inch wade pool in the middle of a heatwave and evaporating by the minute, all because now by following status quo you completely ignored the fact of what made your writing good, your world better, your sales higher, your following stronger the first time around.

    Because you couldn't just be yourself.

    And guess what? You lost this fan and many more who loved you and respected you for what you did the first time around. Because basically you just told me with these moves that all that great stuff you created the first time around no longer matters.

    And the fact that there are many of us out there who helped you become number 2 and bought those expansions with the non white people don't matter anymore either. Nothing more than a slap in the face.  And that means that you no longer will be getting my money because why should I spend my money on something that the people behind it told me its not for me anymore? Sorry but I am just not that self degradating. 

    Bottom line is fleshing out your game world is better for your bottom line. One does not think that GW1 was and still is the second highest mmo behind WoW sttrictly on the sales of GW: Prophecies alone do we?

     

    Not to mention how many posts have we seen from loyal Vanguard fanboys always speaking on the size and believability of Vanguards' world design and race design. The game had multiple continents, multiple human races and its world felt like a world. How many mmo's nowadays can claim this fact?

    And how many of them can claim the sales of GW1? Anet went backwards on its world design to cater to what it thought was it's main demographic. Instead of capitalizing on what they did in the first game which got them alot more recognition and a hell of a lot more money. People played GW1 for YEARS. GW2 does not have the same staying power. Why because they sold out to try to fit status quo.

     

    And status quo will keep your pockets quite slim compared to going your own way as you did in the past. Your own way which got you to the number 2 spot. Financially, game design wise, it all does not make sense. Since when has a business willingly thrown away so much money in exchange of losing your soul?

     

    Why? Because they went status quo and got lazy, and bottom line is now they have to push boogabear backpacks and other nonsense in their cash shop instead of keeping to their roots and talking about upcoming expansions in Elona and Cantha. Both which were things that fleshed out their world and kept them in the black (pun intended) as far as profitablility.

    GW2 will be so lucky if it lasts half as long as GW1 does as far as popularity.

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  • jdnycjdnyc Long Island City, NYPosts: 1,696Member
    Originally posted by Maquiame
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means you would have a different culture?

    In most MMO's they are grouped by race: Dwarf, Human, Elf... not by skin color so once again, why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means different culture?

    The same way like in a movie like Thor its out of place -even to me- to see a black Heimdall or black people in the River Town in LOTRO. Because those seemed shoehored in just to be PC.

     

    No different of how it seems "shoehorned in" (and lazy mind you) to just have a black guy running around garbed in full medieval English tropes.

     

    Game devs should not be putting them in just to shut up the minorities. If you aren't going to do them right then keep it real like WoW did and don't put them in at all. As I explained in an earlier post actually putting in a seperate culture makes more sense financially. It adds to the depth of your game. Gives you an expansion into the exotic lands of Analogue- Asia/Africa/Arabia etc.  It adds greatly to the overall game design.

    Making a black guy in England trope makes no money

     

    Making Guild Wars: Nightfall does

    Making an Asian guy in English tropes makes no money for the bottom line

     

    Making Guild Wars: Factions does.

     

    Bottom line is fleshing out your game world is better for your bottom line. One does not think that GW1 was and still is the second highest mmo behind WoW sttrictly on the sales of GW: Prophecies alone do we?

    Well GW isn't an MMO, so no.

    The rest of your argument is what is used to say that anti discrimination laws aren't needed.  Free enterprise dictates that exclusion is bad for the business model.  I find more often than not that it's more of a means to defend against diversity than anything.  As for the race thing in fantasy, I think plenty of stuff written back in the day had racial tones to it.  By today standards the audience that was originally written for is now wider and not as white.

    "Game devs should not be putting them in just to shut up the minorities" this quote is very offensive.  I won't bother to go into why because I know you won't care nor understand why.  But if someone has ever brought up the topic of white privilege  to you and you didn't understand, reread that sentence you wrote.

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,552Member Uncommon

    Would people play a game where all the characters were black with only one token white?


  • MaquiameMaquiame Posts: 797Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by jdnyc
    Originally posted by Maquiame
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means you would have a different culture?

    In most MMO's they are grouped by race: Dwarf, Human, Elf... not by skin color so once again, why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means different culture?

    The same way like in a movie like Thor its out of place -even to me- to see a black Heimdall or black people in the River Town in LOTRO. Because those seemed shoehored in just to be PC.

     

    No different of how it seems "shoehorned in" (and lazy mind you) to just have a black guy running around garbed in full medieval English tropes.

     

    Game devs should not be putting them in just to shut up the minorities. If you aren't going to do them right then keep it real like WoW did and don't put them in at all. As I explained in an earlier post actually putting in a seperate culture makes more sense financially. It adds to the depth of your game. Gives you an expansion into the exotic lands of Analogue- Asia/Africa/Arabia etc.  It adds greatly to the overall game design.

    Making a black guy in England trope makes no money

     

    Making Guild Wars: Nightfall does

    Making an Asian guy in English tropes makes no money for the bottom line

     

    Making Guild Wars: Factions does.

     

    Bottom line is fleshing out your game world is better for your bottom line. One does not think that GW1 was and still is the second highest mmo behind WoW sttrictly on the sales of GW: Prophecies alone do we?

    Well GW isn't an MMO, so no.

    The rest of your argument is what is used to say that anti discrimination laws aren't needed.  Free enterprise dictates that exclusion is bad for the business model.  I find more often than not that it's more of a means to defend against diversity than anything.  As for the race thing in fantasy, I think plenty of stuff written back in the day had racial tones to it.  By today standards the audience that was originally written for is now wider and not as white.

    "Game devs should not be putting them in just to shut up the minorities" this quote is very offensive.  I won't bother to go into why because I know you won't care nor understand why.  But if someone has ever brought up the topic of white privilege  to you and you didn't understand, reread that sentence you wrote.

    Perhaps it is, but I prefer effort being done with other races and cultures of humans instead of putting in an English knight in blackface.

    I'll take an Erudite, Elonian, Mordebi and any other over the darkskinned colored Paladin choice from Stormwind.

     

    image

    Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!

  • donpopukidonpopuki Dearborn, MIPosts: 591Member
    At first I was I didn't understand why people were saying there aren't enough "black" characters in MMOs. Most MMOs if not all the ones I've played have that option. However if the critism is that there aren't enough non-European/non-East Asian human cultures in MMOs then I would have to agree. Games need more Erudites and Stygians. The standard European fantasy is rather generic.
  • KuinnKuinn MestaPosts: 2,093Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    But I'm getting off track. We're supposed to be talking about video games. If someone writes a video game, and all of the humans are one race, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that in the U.S. at least, 13% of the population is going to feel left out. That's bad enough, but the part that bothers me is that it doesn't even make sense. Video games are complete fantasy worlds, with no real history and no real reason to not include many different races of humans. There are many different races of humanoids, so what's the big issue with a couple different races of humans? If it's not a big deal to include cats that have evolved to the point of using tools and speech, it shouldn't be that big a deal to have more than one race of humans in a game.

     

     

    That reminds me, why are the alien races always so one dimensional? I mean, humans have whites, blacks, asian, etc. But the aliens always have just one type of the specific race, sure there can be a different skin color but looking at humans there's also a bunch of other different features. Perhaps it's the extra work... Wait no, I told my self never to defend lazy development again :)

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kuinn
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    But I'm getting off track. We're supposed to be talking about video games. If someone writes a video game, and all of the humans are one race, it shouldn't take a genius to figure out that in the U.S. at least, 13% of the population is going to feel left out. That's bad enough, but the part that bothers me is that it doesn't even make sense. Video games are complete fantasy worlds, with no real history and no real reason to not include many different races of humans. There are many different races of humanoids, so what's the big issue with a couple different races of humans? If it's not a big deal to include cats that have evolved to the point of using tools and speech, it shouldn't be that big a deal to have more than one race of humans in a game.

     

     

    That reminds me, why are the alien races always so one dimensional? I mean, humans have whites, blacks, asian, etc. But the aliens always have just one type of the specific race, sure there can be a different skin color but looking at humans there's also a bunch of other different features. Perhaps it's the extra work... Wait no, I told my self never to defend lazy development again :)

    You write about what you know, that's why different cultures and aliens are so hard to do. Most of the cultures and races you see in games have been handed down, they are not easy to create. They may look different but they are built on archetypes that have worked before. Like 'big strong guy' - Highlanders, Bahmi and Norse. Then you take a culture - Scots, sort of Arabic, Norse. Doing something truly new is a real leap. Even I who go on about how little lore we have in MMOs these days do not expect amazingly detailed totally new races and cultures every time a new MMO launches.

    Games which are expected to give us certain races and cultures we have not seen in MMOs before like the Sith or Bretons have a wealth of material to draw on. We expect far more detail there and do usually get it.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by someforumguy

    I think you have to watch out to start representing fantasy races in a way just to be political correct to the point that you start messing with the lore of that fantasy world. A lot of lore from sci fi and fantasy leaves room for all colours of the rainbow, but in many cases it specifically does not.

    The OP's example about Norns for example. A black Norn would be like having an asian native american. It would not make sense. The humans in GW2 on the other hand can be any colour, because nothing in the GW2 lore says they can't. Also Norns are not humans to begin with, so projecting human racial variation on them is silly to begin with. Same goes for other fantasy/sci fi races that are not human. Also, in many cases it is not about our world. Which often is the main point.

    I find it interesting you chose two races so closely related, genetic-wise. Native Americans are the direct descendants of Asians.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlement_of_the_Americas

    And just so you know.....they've found Asians living with Native Americans dating back around 9k years - a multicultural society even in prehistory.

    http://museums.nevadaculture.org/new_exhibits/cc-UnderOneSky/spiritcave.htm

    As for the rest: if I can believe that an elf can live forever, and that wizards have magical powers, and there is a fire breathing dragon gaurding his plunder - I can certainly accept that Laketown may have some racial diversity. In fact, it seems a lot more plausible than the other stuff to me. It's just to me - in a 'fantasy' - anything can be plausible if well written - and it just seems ludicrous to have a racial variety which spans from goblins to hobbits to dwarves to elves to humans to trolls.....yet variation in skin tone is 'one step too far'. 

    Did you guys notice that some of the goblins had skin so dark green it was almost black, and some that were light skinned green.....that one orc in LotR was as pink as a pig. Why aren't we decrying the racial impurity here?

     

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means you would have a different culture?In most MMO's they are grouped by race: Dwarf, Human, Elf... not by skin color so once again, why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means different culture?

    I can answer this, at least for the U.S. People grow up with different cultures depending on where they live, who their parents are and how they are treated in society. A black kid and a white kid can grow up in the same city, go to the same schools and hang out in the same malls, but end up with different cultures, even if there is a lot of overlap between them. "Skin Color" = "Different Culture" has become something that is perceived to be true, even though it's just a result of people ending up with different cultures because of many reasons, not just race or skin color.

    Now, since we're talking about video games, then none of this really matters. Black vikings are a go, as well as white people living like Native Americans. Every group having a mixture of skin tones isn't off limits either.

    Regarding people who think things like Heimdall being black is jarring or wrong, I'm just going to say that you are the problem. It doesn't matter what color of the actor's skin if they can play the part, and the part doesn't require a particular race. For instance, you wouldn't have a white guy play Solomon Northrup in Twelve Years a Slave. It wouldn't work. Having a black guy play Heimdall is no big deal. <- This is coming from someone who's been reading and enjoying the Thor comic for nearly thirty years. There are disappointing things about the Thor movie, but Heimdall isn't one of them.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • artyportartyport new york, NYPosts: 16Member

    You know what really annoys me as a black person.

    NO BLACK ELVES. 

    Seriously. Everytime black people are depicted in games they are all butch and buldgey. 

    We are not all giant scary people.

    I, Myself am very elf like. Tall and Very lean and have softer features.  

    Please someone make black elves.. AND NOT DARK ELVES!

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Algo Star SystemPosts: 651Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Maquiame
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    Why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means you would have a different culture?

    In most MMO's they are grouped by race: Dwarf, Human, Elf... not by skin color so once again, why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means different culture?

    The same way like in a movie like Thor its out of place -even to me- to see a black Heimdall or black people in the River Town in LOTRO. Because those seemed shoehored in just to be PC.

     

    No different of how it seems "shoehorned in" (and lazy mind you) to just have a black guy running around garbed in full medieval English tropes.

     

    Game devs should not be putting them in just to shut up the minorities. If you aren't going to do them right then keep it real like WoW did and don't put them in at all. As I explained in an earlier post actually putting in a seperate culture makes more sense financially. It adds to the depth of your game. Gives you an expansion into the exotic lands of Analogue- Asia/Africa/Arabia etc.  It adds greatly to the overall game design. 

    Making a black guy in England trope makes no money

     

    Making Guild Wars: Nightfall does

    Making an Asian guy in English tropes makes no money for the bottom line

     

    Making Guild Wars: Factions does.

    Both games did what they had to do, they added new classes, new stories, new weapons, new armors and new locales. They added to the overall game design. Certain things from both games would have not been in GW2. Their world was fleshed out because in the first game they set out to make a -world- not just one huge continent surrounded by water. It drew loyalty and fans.  I bought GW2 purely due to the wonderful game design that was GW: Nightfall. They made a fan out of me simply because they put in the care. I know asian players who have told me the same about Factions being the reason why they decided to buy GW2. I remember when I read their official wiki and found out about Kryta and how they hailed from Elonian colonists. Bottom line is that they treated their human race analogues with respect. Respect enough to make games about them. Respect enough that even in their first game the lead race were darkskinned people.

    And then in the second game they whitewashed them, threw them into the ocean and made the folk who had any semblance to them pirates and thieves, you dropped them into the ocean, severed the Elonian connection, whitewashed them and their ancestor race (the senator of the Elonian district looks nothing like an Elonian from Nightfall. Nothing at all). And they changed the story overall taking out any important semblance of the reasons why Kryta is -different- from any other main civilization from any mmo in history. 

    And you have not sold the same amount of copies of the game that you sold the first time around when you said screw the status quo. The writing in GW2 is terrible saturday morning trite. As shallow as a two inch wade pool in the middle of a heatwave and evaporating by the minute, all because now by following status quo you completely ignored the fact of what made your writing good, your world better, your sales higher, your following stronger the first time around.

    Because you couldn't just be yourself.

    And guess what? You lost this fan and many more who loved you and respected you for what you did the first time around. Because basically you just told me with these moves that all that great stuff you created the first time around no longer matters.

    And the fact that there are many of us out there who helped you become number 2 and bought those expansions with the non white people don't matter anymore either. Nothing more than a slap in the face.  And that means that you no longer will be getting my money because why should I spend my money on something that the people behind it told me its not for me anymore? Sorry but I am just not that self degradating. 

    Bottom line is fleshing out your game world is better for your bottom line. One does not think that GW1 was and still is the second highest mmo behind WoW sttrictly on the sales of GW: Prophecies alone do we?

     

    Not to mention how many posts have we seen from loyal Vanguard fanboys always speaking on the size and believability of Vanguards' world design and race design. The game had multiple continents, multiple human races and its world felt like a world. How many mmo's nowadays can claim this fact?

    And how many of them can claim the sales of GW1? Anet went backwards on its world design to cater to what it thought was it's main demographic. Instead of capitalizing on what they did in the first game which got them alot more recognition and a hell of a lot more money. People played GW1 for YEARS. GW2 does not have the same staying power. Why because they sold out to try to fit status quo.

     

    And status quo will keep your pockets quite slim compared to going your own way as you did in the past. Your own way which got you to the number 2 spot. Financially, game design wise, it all does not make sense. Since when has a business willingly thrown away so much money in exchange of losing your soul?

     

    Why? Because they went status quo and got lazy, and bottom line is now they have to push boogabear backpacks and other nonsense in their cash shop instead of keeping to their roots and talking about upcoming expansions in Elona and Cantha. Both which were things that fleshed out their world and kept them in the black (pun intended) as far as profitablility.

    GW2 will be so lucky if it lasts half as long as GW1 does as far as popularity.

    ROTFL. What?

  • FappuccinoFappuccino ErgensPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by artyport

    You know what really annoys me as a black person.

    NO BLACK ELVES. 

    Seriously. Everytime black people are depicted in games they are all butch and buldgey. 

    We are not all giant scary people.

    I, Myself am very elf like. Tall and Very lean and have softer features.  

    Please someone make black elves.. AND NOT DARK ELVES!

    We're getting there. Maybe the creators need to latch on a little less on to Tolkien's definitive version a little less strongly. Elf mythology did exist before his time.

    The way elves are born, where they live etc. So much of fantasy is still rooted in our reality.

    In Tolkien's version elves where born in the starlight (as the Sun and Moon had yet to be created) suggesting that they should have fair skin. 

    No sun equals no UV equals light skin pigments.

     

    Humans have a fundamental attraction to light. It's a mechanism of survival.

    Our sight is the sense we depend on the most, and we cannot see well in darkness, therefore a lack of light makes us feel very vulnerable to danger.

     

    So light will always always be associated with good and virtuous.

    Darkness is associated with evil, ugliness, scary monsters, and super creeps. So no softer features here, no sir.

     

    Thus why elves are depicted as light. If they're dark there must be something wrong with them.

    Without light there is no shadow any way.

     

    http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DarkIsEvil ;

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by Fappuccino
    Originally posted by artyport

    You know what really annoys me as a black person.

    NO BLACK ELVES. 

     

    Because elves are a different species. They aren't human. Why would you assume there would be a black version of elves? LOL  

     

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,762Member Uncommon

    I am going a bit off topic here, but maybe I can get a US perspective on something quite a few UK people I know have noticed.

    In the US why do TV series police chiefs always have to be black? Same goes for head of section if its some sort of secret service organization. Now this looks to me like they have decided they need a token non white, but why the chief? My guess is that they want to show them in a senior position, having done well but not now using a gun. Is there some sort of aversion to showing young black guys on TV using guns who are role models?

    On UK TV the police chief is always a women, so you are not alone in the States for this sort of silliness. Over here though its just about showing women in position of authority, I am pretty sure nobody is worried about them using guns. :)

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Scot
    I am going a bit off topic here, but maybe I can get a US perspective on something quite a few UK people I know have noticed.In the US why do TV series police chiefs always have to be black? Same goes for head of section if its some sort of secret service organization. Now this looks to me like they have decided they need a token non white, but why the chief? My guess is that they want to show them in a senior position, having done well but not now using a gun. Is there some sort of aversion to showing young black guys on TV using guns who are role models?On UK TV the police chief is always a women, so you are not alone in the States for this sort of silliness. Over here though its just about showing women in position of authority, I am pretty sure nobody is worried about them using guns. :)

    I live here and I can't explain it. It just seems to be one of those things that's accepted as "the way things are", so it continues. Kind of the same way that same character usually wears suspenders or smokes cigars and is almost always angry.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Fappuccino
    Originally posted by artyport

    You know what really annoys me as a black person.

    NO BLACK ELVES. 

     

    Because elves are a different species. They aren't human. Why would you assume there would be a black version of elves? LOL  

     

     

    Finally someone with some sense.

    Elves are white because they are a different species - of course. Anyone who has a degree in biology knows there is absolutely no species variation found in nature. All dogs are large. All dogs are black. Cats are orange/ yellow - why? They are a different species than dogs. Thefore there is no such thing as a black cat. There is no color variation there too.

    And think about our species - human. We are all exactly the same color. We aren't different colors. Other species are different colors. We as the human species we are all the same color.

    Tolkein is a hack too. Everyone knows, elves are not tall, they speak perfect English - what ever this made up language Tolkein thought of is a joke.

    They are tiny creatures with squeaky voices that make toys at the north pole. This we all know.

    I am glad that someone finally pointed out what 'real life' elves are like. 

    Really - has anyone ever actually met an elf that wasn't white? I mean, all the elves I know are white.

    How can you create a black elf anyway? Like he is living in some sort of magical fantasy world.

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member

    No, you're not understanding what I was saying. I was simply pointing out that assuming that there would be black elves because there are black humans doesn't make much sense and since the person I was replying to said specifically that he doesn't like Drow, which are literally black elves, it seems he wants Elves that act like and act like Africans or something which also doesn't make any sense to me. It's like saying "why aren't there Chinese elves?"

     

    I wasn't saying that all elves have to have light skin.You can make them purple if you want but they should have their own non-human culture.

     

  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member
    Originally posted by iridescence

    No, you're not understanding what I was saying. I was simply pointing out that assuming that there would be black elves because there are black humans doesn't make much sense and since the person I was replying to said specifically that he doesn't like Drow, which are literally black elves, it seems he wants Elves that act like and act like Africans or something which also doesn't make any sense to me. It's like saying "why aren't there Chinese elves?"

     

    I wasn't saying that all elves have to have light skin.You can make them purple if you want but they should have their own non-human culture.

     

    But my mis-perception of your statement was much more fun to poke at!

    Thanks for clarifying =)

  • Mew59Mew59 Cincinnati, OHPosts: 6Member

    The answer is simple. There aren't enough black people playing or taking enough interest in fantasy rpgs. As a black woman..mentioning MMORPGs elicits looks of puzzlement from friends and family. Why would they attempt to draw in (which is what adding more black figures into their games/advertising would do) a group of people who they just don't think would be interested?  

     

    And, to those certain people, it's a fantasy game. I don't care if the environment is snowy and mountainous, set in Azeroth, etc. There are trolls, old white men wielding magic, and cheese wheels...I don't think black people are that out of place.

    Playing: Aion and GW2
    Played: Star Trek, WoW, C9, SWTOR, Vindictus, Rift, Tera, Allods, Champions, CoH/V, D&D,FFXIV, GW, Lineage 2, LotR, Warhammer, Neverwinter
    Waiting for: Wildstar and TESO

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by Mew59
    The answer is simple. There aren't enough black people playing or taking enough interest in fantasy rpgs. As a black woman..mentioning MMORPGs elicits looks of puzzlement from friends and family. Why would they attempt to draw in (which is what adding more black figures into their games/advertising would do) a group of people who they just don't think would be interested?   And, to those certain people, it's a fantasy game. I don't care if the environment is snowy and mountainous, set in Azeroth, etc. There are trolls, old white men wielding magic, and cheese wheels...I don't think black people are that out of place.

    Cheese wheels?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • aRtFuLThinGaRtFuLThinG MelbournePosts: 1,134Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Kevyne-Shandris
    Originally posted by crack_fox
    Originally posted by ElRenmazuo

    I think Tolkien was just a tad bit racist lol.  I mean if black and indian colored people were with sauron in his books thats kind of like saying black and indian people are with satan...

    That has never been my understanding. I have always taken it to mean that their leaders have fallen under Sauron's influence, not that those peoples are themselves evil. For me, what stands out in Tolkien's writing is the emphasis on social class rather than race. The only evil race are the orcs, and when they speak Common their vocabulary is that of the English working class. The heroes by contrast are largely of 'better stock' with the notable exception of loyal Sam, the subservient commoner who clearly 'knows his place'. 

     

    Samwise was fashioned after the batmen in the British army (officer stewards). The loyal Tommy Aitkens.

     

    Tolkien was a product of his age, and by todays standards would be considered "old fashioned" to put it nicely. He was also deeply religious and a devout Roman Catholic, and very sensitive of being Catholic in Protestant England (he regarded his mother, who converted to Catholicism, a "martyr" for what she faced for doing so [she died just a decade later than her husband, leaving Tolkien and his brother orphans]). Not only did he detest the USA, he detested the French and the modern world and it's machines (he regarded the firebombing of Dresden and the atomic bomb drops as hellish). All that came from his writings. You can just regard him as your typical midlands British subject, which he was, and just as fussy.

     

    For him the world would be what he experienced as a poor orphan during the Imperial age. His fascination for languages, like Welsh (foreign and almost driven to extinction in his day), is what drove him to write stories of fantasy of the medieval world. Add the hardships he faced as a sub-lieutenant during WWI, it shaped his worldview overall.

     

    But his world was white with all the prejudices and racism of the time. Much like Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) was a product of his generation. It's hard to judge them because that was the status quo of the day, but they were that.

    ^ Good post.

     

    And you are correct imo. On top of that Tolkien's time was NOT the Information Age we got to remember - it is NOT an age where information about places and people are readily available, where a lot of people is still uneducated, and where a lot of people still has not travelled very far (because shipping was still the main mode of transportation for passengers at distance and ships are slow).

     

    That's why Englishmen back in the early 1900's called Africa the "Dark Continent" - NOT because the people are dark skinned, but because they know next to nothing about Africa and it is "in the dark" to them - a view which is highly reflective I think in Tolkien's writings (we know next to nothing about the South, the swarthy people and the Easterlings, nothing about their history or kings, in the Tolkien's universe, because they were in the regions so dominated by the influence of Sauron and before him, Morgoth.

  • monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by artyport

    You know what really annoys me as a black person.

    NO BLACK ELVES. 

    Seriously. Everytime black people are depicted in games they are all butch and buldgey. 

    We are not all giant scary people.

    I, Myself am very elf like. Tall and Very lean and have softer features.  

    Please someone make black elves.. AND NOT DARK ELVES!

    Well, you see... that's how people generally see us.

    Exhibit A

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