If 50% of all fantasy-theme MMO purchasers were black, then 50% of the character creation would be geared more towards black characters.
High Fantasy isn't popular with the black community. This, as well as the fact that most people prefer to make characters of their own race (if they decide to play human), is the reason why character creation lacks proper black structure.
Personally, I'd like to see proper base models for every major race on earth. Vanguard did a pretty good job, IMO.
There are more black people playing mmos than talking rats. Erudites from EQ! should be in EQN period. Not alien monsters, not forgotten but a race that was in the first game and beloved.
Why do talkiing rats get put in first?
Where is the hard truth and logic in that?
Oh and btw the TES series is VERY popular with black players. Why? The Redguard, who are based on a very famous medieval culture that was a power in its day and did not run around with spears and fathers on their heads. When one is willing to do the research and put in the effort it translates into dollars and loyal followings. Hell there are songs about the Redguard on youtube.
The group I'm talking about is:
Songhai/Mali - which has been featured in a Civilization game as one of the civs you could pick.
See thing is fantasy is very popular if one is willing to do the reasarch. We all do not play GTA. Not to mention amongst black, female gamers fantasy is much more popular than sports or urban tripe like GTA. So please do not assume.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
This is honestly just people with too good of a life, and too much time to complain about stupid things like this.
The OP brings up some good points about how it's being talked about, and my post is nothing against him, it's against the people who make the posts, in the end the real question is, is it really that big of a fucking deal?
Erudites are one of the founding races of Everquest. A beloved founding race, that was turned into aliens and not even being put in at all despite peoples requests for them. They were at one time a cornerstone of the lore. People mainly play humans in mmos.
I havent followed EQ1 lore in the last 5 years but when did Erudites get related to aliens?
but otherwise, in mmos at least, it hard to justify this being an issue with all the fantasy races
Character skin tone alone lets players be practically any human race they want to be
This
In any game where skin tone is an option, you can generally make a dark skinned character. I know I have dark skinned humans in EQII, Vanguard and DDO.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do. Benjamin Franklin
The OP brings up some good points about how it's being talked about, and my post is nothing against him, it's against the people who make the posts, in the end the real question is, is it really that big of a fucking deal?
This a a forum made to discuss small design issues about MMOs populated mostly by people with no power to actually change the design of the MMOs they talk about or to produce new ones. Safe to say that in the wider scheme 99% of what is discussed here isn't really "a big fucking deal"
The OP brings up some good points about how it's being talked about, and my post is nothing against him, it's against the people who make the posts, in the end the real question is, is it really that big of a fucking deal?
This a a forum made to discuss small design issues about MMOs populated mostly by people with no power to actually change the design of the MMOs they talk about or to produce new ones. Safe to say that in the wider scheme 99% of what is discussed here isn't really "a big fucking deal"
Actually, you'll be surprised what's discussed on forums winds up in the games.
Was pleasantly surprised about fishing and farming coming to WoW (though not farming Farmville style!). Almost a lone voice on those two activities, but something different to keep folks busy, and the farming became a hit for PvE players. Sis almost solely raised the fishing guild achieves as well -- 100,000 fish is a lot of fishing solo! That's why I talked so much about it, as it's something she likes to do in RL. Tada, she now has achieves and Nat to exalted, too.
They listen, but you'll never get credit for it. But Blizzard you know darn well what I posted about those 2 past times a lot!
Point 3 however I take exception too. So, by your way of thinking, all white people have the exact same back ground and no cultural diversity whatsoever? Probably one of the more ignorant statements I have seen in well ever.
Good point although also true of "black people" some guy who's lived all his life in an African village would probabl be more mystified than entertained by "Black Entertainment Television" (which is why although often derided as PC I do think "African-American is more accurate than "black").
And you do see plenty of Scottish/German/French Canadian/whatever pride and nationalism and specific history and culture for those groups. Those people just identify as something more specific than just "white" as I imagine most "black" people do as well.
Erudites are one of the founding races of Everquest. A beloved founding race, that was turned into aliens and not even being put in at all despite peoples requests for them. They were at one time a cornerstone of the lore. People mainly play humans in mmos.
I havent followed EQ1 lore in the last 5 years but when did Erudites get related to aliens?
Check out the appearance of them in EQ2, they don't look human anymore and might as well be aliens.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Well for one, if you can have an all "Black" movie, you should be able to have an all "White" movie. Sorry, logic doesn't indicate that one is mutually exclusive from another. Your not racist for not having a certain race in the movie given that the area/scene itself would not have one involved. So long as you aren't ATTACKING a certain race (mostly meaning if its raw hate speech) it has to be understood that sometimes it just doesn't work out in a "Balanced" way as in our society there are plenty of places were you will see one type of people being more prominent then another.
That said, in a fantasy themed world, it depends heavily on the world. It would likely be very similiar to our own world, likely with one race being perhaps under populated versus another in a certain region, likely in a large fashion then we see in a world were we are all so easily connected. That being said, its not unreasonable to expect the possibility some people might of traveled from far away and became part of society elsewhere. As such in the example in The Hobbit, the man could of easily of traveled from a distant land perhaps being exiled or simply trying to a seek a better life elsewhere. Heck given its a trade district it might be his efforts to sell wares from another land, using that to boost his ability to make wealth giving him a good reason for being there (haven't seen the movie so no clue whether there is a link or not).
In short: Yes, if it makes no sense for them to be there, they shouldn't be there. Just don't count out the fact the world can be very much like our own and people of different ethnicities can end up becoming part of another society whether traveling merchants or individuals just seeking a new life. A well written fantasy world will not only have races like Elves or Dwarves, but also have various 'types' of those in the world with their own differences whether in culture or appearance or both.
I think Tolkien was just a tad bit racist lol. I mean if black and indian colored people were with sauron in his books thats kind of like saying black and indian people are with satan...
That has never been my understanding. I have always taken it to mean that their leaders have fallen under Sauron's influence, not that those peoples are themselves evil. For me, what stands out in Tolkien's writing is the emphasis on social class rather than race. The only evil race are the orcs, and when they speak Common their vocabulary is that of the English working class. The heroes by contrast are largely of 'better stock' with the notable exception of loyal Sam, the subservient commoner who clearly 'knows his place'.
Samwise was fashioned after the batmen in the British army (officer stewards). The loyal Tommy Aitkens.
Tolkien was a product of his age, and by todays standards would be considered "old fashioned" to put it nicely. He was also deeply religious and a devout Roman Catholic, and very sensitive of being Catholic in Protestant England (he regarded his mother, who converted to Catholicism, a "martyr" for what she faced for doing so [she died just a decade later than her husband, leaving Tolkien and his brother orphans]). Not only did he detest the USA, he detested the French and the modern world and it's machines (he regarded the firebombing of Dresden and the atomic bomb drops as hellish). All that came from his writings. You can just regard him as your typical midlands British subject, which he was, and just as fussy.
For him the world would be what he experienced as a poor orphan during the Imperial age. His fascination for languages, like Welsh (foreign and almost driven to extinction in his day), is what drove him to write stories of fantasy of the medieval world. Add the hardships he faced as a sub-lieutenant during WWI, it shaped his worldview overall.
But his world was white with all the prejudices and racism of the time. Much like Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) was a product of his generation. It's hard to judge them because that was the status quo of the day, but they were that.
But his world was white with all the prejudices and racism of the time. Much like Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) was a product of his generation. It's hard to judge them because that was the status quo of the day, but they were that.
I completely agree. I would never judge the works of either by the standards - or rather 'sensibilities' - of the modern age. Part of what makes Tolkien's work so fascinating is what it reveals of the experiences of the author and the age and environment in which he lived.
Any person if represented wrongly would want to amend the wrong regardless of color. If I was there when Gage went on a rant calling Asians the "c" word in EvE, I'd conspire to tear down his empire. Why? Because I remember the race riots of the 70s and the effects of desegregation. I don't take that crap in RL, and certainly not online. If you don't take a stand, baseball bats (or worse today) will used to take you down.
Devs no doubt don't want to deal with the problem they know exists in games with gamers themselves. Some games even tolerate open racists, and if they got a chance to make a mockery of other races, it won't look good for the game. Gamers can be the foulest people on Earth, and give them a match, they'll use it too.
Any person if represented wrongly would want to amend the wrong regardless of color. If I was there when Gage went on a rant calling Asians the "c" word in EvE, I'd conspire to tear down his empire. Why? Because I remember the race riots of the 70s and the effects of desegregation. I don't take that crap in RL, and certainly not online. If you don't take a stand, baseball bats (or worse today) will used to take you down.
Devs no doubt don't want to deal with the problem they know exists in games with gamers themselves. Some games even tolerate open racists, and if they got a chance to make a mockery of other races, it won't look good for the game. Gamers can be the foulest people on Earth, and give them a match, they'll use it too.
Yup. At the same time, gamers can be the most open towards new things and get much closer to the idea of things like race being something that just doesn't matter because what matters is the games.
For example, in a video game a black man could date a white woman, and it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Most movies will not have a black man dating a white woman, unless the movie is specifically about inter-racial dating. In video games the leading role can be a black man, and players would probably still buy the game and it would probably still make just as much money if the lead character was white. In movies, unless the lead is played by Will Smith or maybe Denzel Washington, it's not going to make as much money as movies where the lead is played by someone who's white. <- This is changing a little, but not much.
There's always room for improvement, but relative to other forms of entertainment, video games and gamers seem to be a little better.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Any person if represented wrongly would want to amend the wrong regardless of color. If I was there when Gage went on a rant calling Asians the "c" word in EvE, I'd conspire to tear down his empire. Why? Because I remember the race riots of the 70s and the effects of desegregation. I don't take that crap in RL, and certainly not online. If you don't take a stand, baseball bats (or worse today) will used to take you down.
Devs no doubt don't want to deal with the problem they know exists in games with gamers themselves. Some games even tolerate open racists, and if they got a chance to make a mockery of other races, it won't look good for the game. Gamers can be the foulest people on Earth, and give them a match, they'll use it too.
Yup. At the same time, gamers can be the most open towards new things and get much closer to the idea of things like race being something that just doesn't matter because what matters is the games.
For example, in a video game a black man could date a white woman, and it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Most movies will not have a black man dating a white woman, unless the movie is specifically about inter-racial dating. In video games the leading role can be a black man, and players would probably still buy the game and it would probably still make just as much money if the lead character was white. In movies, unless the lead is played by Will Smith or maybe Denzel Washington, it's not going to make as much money as movies where the lead is played by someone who's white. <- This is changing a little, but not much.
There's always room for improvement, but relative to other forms of entertainment, video games and gamers seem to be a little better.
It's debatable about open. Until Blizzard tamped down trade chat it was blatantly racist (worse, guilds with openly racist names). It maybe less out of view there now, but the same people who trolled there are still ingame, and folks know people don't change racist views overnight (and I doubt Gage would stop using the "C" word, too).
There's the ideal, and there's the reality. Folks want to believe the ideal, yet the reality is 1 racist in a room of 100 is still too many.
I am not asking for something that does not exist.
Wow does not have a "black race" or any other human races besides white so I don't ask for them. You told me right off the bat that you didn't give a damn about other human cultures. Enough to the point that you put stereotypes into monstrous races. Hence why I don't play WoW.
Erudites are one of the founding races of Everquest. A beloved founding race, that was turned into aliens and not even being put in at all despite peoples requests for them. They were at one time a cornerstone of the lore. People mainly play humans in mmos.
But instead of getting a race that is part of your lore, fits into the "most players play humans" hard truth of mmo character creation we get polls asking us if we want talking rats instead.
I don't get it.
I don't think you got the gist of what I said. I don't want to play a rat person, but many players do like to play non humans in MMOs. As you say the majority of players play humans, but in MMOs when it comes to human culture you tend to get one or two. Extra human cultures may well get sacrificed for non human ones. I am talking from a design perspective here, it seems they often think well you have a human culture and you can play a black toon, that's good enough. I did not know about the Erudites, if they were already in lore then yes, dropping them in favour of rat people is a poor choice.
When it comes to EQN I gave up after the ninja question, they have made their decisions and do not care what the community decide. That's why I doubt you are ever going to get a question about Erudites.
This is very noticeable in games from various countries. Understanding what culture drives these choices is very very important. Quite of a few asian games ONLY basically have asian human choices among some non-human choices. This may seem even more racist to western civilities but is actually more a reflection of China and Japan being hyper isolationist for hundreds of years. Although the same result occurs (lack of racial options) it isn't the same as racism. Racism implies it was a conscience choice.
This is one example though but the reason behind the exclusion if very important to grasp. America is very unique and everyone (not just Americans) need to understand the incredible impact slavery and the civil war had on that country and how it affects it's citizens still today. Most people from countries attached to the slave trade (or be it historical cultural conflicts) are a mix of opinions ranging from truly not being racist to being racist on some level to simply not addressing the issue at all (where I believe a large part this problem originates. Political correctness often is only a mask allowing the real issue to smolder).
Despite all the efforts there is still a division especially in media of all kinds. Exclude racial options and people ask why? Include them and people think appeasement; such as all those commercials where every actor in it is a different cultural origin because, you know, everyone can only have ONE white, light brown, dark brown, black, asian or first nation friend. "SORRY! my Inuit slot if full!". Or the fact asians are the "safe" cultural option to throw in commercials. I see about a 10 to 1 to 0.1 ratio (yes guessing but it very noticeable) commercials with a white male married to an asian female, asian male is married to a white female and a black male is married to a white female. Take a look at a magazine stand next time you walk by one. Try and find a single first nations person on the cover of any popular magazine (if you do ... buy a lottery ticket).
We western people love our cultured history (which is recent by historical measures) and you won't see the word "genocide" in our empire building history. Tell that to the people who had 90-100% of their culture destroyed by imperial expansionism (from Roman rule through British rule through American rule it has all been the same ... imperialism based roughly on the same Roman political ideals. Different flavors to suit the times but the same thing. This is over 2000 years, minus some dark ages, of a few western nations influencing many other nations with their "superior" doctrine. This breeds conflict). The victors write the history books. This is what caused the slave trade to begin with. Western cultures going through a "gold rush" trying to be the first to exploit Africa which included it's very people. They became a commodity for hyper-expanding economies. Could you even imagine this happening to you? It is still happening today.
We are naive to think we can resolve this ... ever, let alone several generations of people unwilling to face the reality of what was done. Racism/sexism even exists when people are going out of their way NOT to look racist/sexist. Another example is the BBC news (this is documented issue and not just my opinion) where their news reporters look like a United Nations convention but take a quick peek inside a BBC executive boardroom and you are blinded by the pastiness of all the pale white people. The question though is if a company doesn't even consider the matter either way are they in fact being racist? I believe they still are.
A game should have ALL racial options for humans and if not serious questions need to be asked as to why the exclusion (some answers make sense like a game base entirely in a culture isolated at the time). Even if a previous game traditionally only has (let's just say it) white people, then a sequel or mmo conversion is the perfect opportunity to address this issue.
I think we need to be more forgiving of other people's passive ignorance. I'm sure I offend people all the time without me knowing. I'm not perfect and I don't expect others to be perfect.
This is very noticeable in games from various countries. Understanding what culture drives these choices is very very important. Quite of a few asian games ONLY basically have asian human choices among some non-human choices. This may seem even more racist to western civilities but is actually more a reflection of China and Japan being hyper isolationist for hundreds of years. Although the same result occurs (lack of racial options) it isn't the same as racism. Racism implies it was a conscience choice.
This is one example though but the reason behind the exclusion if very important to grasp. America is very unique and everyone (not just Americans) need to understand the incredible impact slavery and the civil war had on that country and how it affects it's citizens still today. Most people from countries attached to the slave trade (or be it historical cultural conflicts) are a mix of opinions ranging from truly not being racist to being racist on some level to simply not addressing the issue at all (where I believe a large part this problem originates. Political correctness often is only a mask allowing the real issue to smolder).
Despite all the efforts there is still a division especially in media of all kinds. Exclude racial options and people ask why? Include them and people think appeasement; such as all those commercials where every actor in it is a different cultural origin because, you know, everyone can only have ONE white, light brown, dark brown, black, asian or first nation friend. "SORRY! my Inuit slot if full!". Or the fact asians are the "safe" cultural option to throw in commercials. I see about a 10 to 1 to 0.1 ratio (yes guessing but it very noticeable) commercials with a white male married to an asian female, asian male is married to a white female and a black male is married to a white female.
Take a look at a magazine stand next time you walk by one. Try and find a single first nations person on the cover of any popular magazine (if you do ... buy a lottery ticket). We western people love our cultured history (which is recent by historical measures) and you won't see the word "genocide" in our empire building history. Tell that to the people who had 90-100% of their culture destroyed by imperial expansionism (from Roman rule through British rule through American rule it has all been the same ... imperialism based roughly on the same Roman political ideals. Different flavors to suit the times but the same thing. This is over 2000 years, minus some dark ages, of a few western nations influencing many other nations with their "superior" doctrine. This breeds conflict). The victors write the history books. This is what caused the slave trade to begin with. Western cultures going through a "gold rush" trying to be the first to exploit Africa which included it's very people. They became a commodity for hyper-expanding economies.
We are naive to think we can resolve this ... ever, let alone several generations of people unwilling to face the reality of what was done. Racism/sexism even exists when people are going out of their way NOT to look racist/sexist. Another example is the BBC news (this is documented issue and not just my opinion) where their news reporters look like a United Nations convention but take a quick peek inside a BBC executive boardroom and you are blinded by the pastiness of all the pale white people. The question though is if a company doesn't even consider the matter either way are they in fact being racist? I believe they still are.
A game should have ALL racial options for humans and if not serious questions need to be asked as to why the exclusion (some answers make sense like a game base entirely in a culture isolated at the time). Even if a previous game traditionally only has (let's just say it) white people, then a sequel or mmo conversion is the perfect opportunity to address this issue.
You have no problem with with asian vikings, black samurai or white shaka (Zulu warrior) in large quantities then? Does it make me a racist if I do? I think making such concessions is pampering.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
This may seem even more racist to western civilities but is actually more a reflection of China and Japan being hyper isolationist for hundreds of years. Although the same result occurs (lack of racial options) it isn't the same as racism.
...
A game should have ALL racial options for humans and if not serious questions need to be asked as to why the exclusion (some exceptions make sense like a game based entirely in a culture isolated at the time).
You have no problem with with asian vikings, black samurai or white shaka (Zulu warrior) in large quantities then? Does it make me a racist if I do? I think making such concessions is pampering.
Seeing what I said above makes me have no clue what you are talking about (edited slightly for clarity).
Nowhere did I suggest you should move past common sense but you certainly like to delve there. You obviously skimmed through what I read and formulated an opinion long before finishing my post. Yes I know it is long for what the average reader here is comfortable with (like anything over 2 sentences typically) but I had to be specific and clear on a very touchy subject.
The vikings were a very specific people amongst other Scandinavian cultures at the time who wouldn't really be called vikings at all. Samurai existed during a time Japan hadn't even been contacted yet by western nations and once they were they entered a couple hundred years of extreme isolation and they were a military nobility and a VERY small portion of the population. Zulu society (or collectively what made it) began pre-colonial times so how the heck would there be white people traditionally?
The examples you gave are people from cultures either isolated or existed in pre-nation building times from local societies. Basically EVERYONE was a native from their native land. I covered this very clearly as a logical exception. Please stop trying to turn what I said into controversy. I merely stated fact that you can read in any modern history book to explain how deeply seeded this issue is in (specifically) modern western society.
Well let's say im creating a game based on medival german, slavic europe, should i place black ppl in that game? No, because there were no black ppl .
Maybe black ppl make no sense for some games (for instance The Witcher, game and book from what i know have no black ppl at all, because it is based on medival era). Fantasy games are mostly based on medival europe, ancient asia.
It is up to the game creator if he put yellow, black, white, red ppl into the game, why should we all fall under this stupid political corectness? If i made the game about ancient afrika (before colonial era) i wouldn't include white ppl in it.
Personally I think the OP is out to lunch. In every MMO I've played you could play as a black person.
Its not just about playing a black person which in most mmos result in nothing but the brown color choice during character creation.
It has to do with playing a -race- a -culture-
Something like the Elonians in Nightfall, the Erudites of EQ1 and the Redguard of Elder Scrolls. People with their own lands, own languages and own beliefs.
Why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means you would have a different culture?
In most MMO's they are grouped by race: Dwarf, Human, Elf... not by skin color so once again, why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means different culture?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The Afro American (Fabrica de' Herois) Also googleable in City of Heroes.
Jesad (Dungeons and Dragons Online) Also, Age of Conan, Vanguard, SWTOR and....
Jesad (Everquest 2)
And not only did I play those games, and those characters, and more, but I brought my friends to play them and ran guilds in a lot of them too.
And if it's more important to a game to stick with their storyline than to make that comes with acknowledging me, even just a little bit, then whatever. I'll find the one that can get both done responsibly.
Just thinking about it, I was big on Wizardry right up until I got to character selection then....psssh...really? And I went right to something else as soon as the game got boring, which didn't take long.
See it's not just that picking someone that makes you feel good is the only thing, but it also helps keep you interested in times when you otherwise might not be. A good product should try its best to marry the user to their avatar if possible, and you just can't get that by excluding the basics.
One thing I think you are missing is that MMOs have become very pared down over the years. So much has been removed for the sake of what has been called streamlining and is really killing off anything other than the most basic of gameplay. In such an environment we have lost roleplay tools, meaningful crafting, housing you name it. To expect MMOs to have many divergent human cultures is a bit of an ask. So the non white ones have gone to the wall.
I was surprised to see ESO had three (?) human cultures, but then it is going to be P2P with the extra funding that involves. But in these days of stripping MMOs down to what companies see as the essentials we have lost way too much. After ESO I am not sure when we are going to have another MMO that bothers to have that many different human cultures.
Comments
There are more black people playing mmos than talking rats. Erudites from EQ! should be in EQN period. Not alien monsters, not forgotten but a race that was in the first game and beloved.
Why do talkiing rats get put in first?
Where is the hard truth and logic in that?
Oh and btw the TES series is VERY popular with black players. Why? The Redguard, who are based on a very famous medieval culture that was a power in its day and did not run around with spears and fathers on their heads. When one is willing to do the research and put in the effort it translates into dollars and loyal followings. Hell there are songs about the Redguard on youtube.
The group I'm talking about is:
Songhai/Mali - which has been featured in a Civilization game as one of the civs you could pick.
See thing is fantasy is very popular if one is willing to do the reasarch. We all do not play GTA. Not to mention amongst black, female gamers fantasy is much more popular than sports or urban tripe like GTA. So please do not assume.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
This is honestly just people with too good of a life, and too much time to complain about stupid things like this.
The OP brings up some good points about how it's being talked about, and my post is nothing against him, it's against the people who make the posts, in the end the real question is, is it really that big of a fucking deal?
Killing dragons is my shit
I havent followed EQ1 lore in the last 5 years but when did Erudites get related to aliens?
EQ2 fan sites
This
In any game where skin tone is an option, you can generally make a dark skinned character. I know I have dark skinned humans in EQII, Vanguard and DDO.
Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do.
Benjamin Franklin
This a a forum made to discuss small design issues about MMOs populated mostly by people with no power to actually change the design of the MMOs they talk about or to produce new ones. Safe to say that in the wider scheme 99% of what is discussed here isn't really "a big fucking deal"
Actually, you'll be surprised what's discussed on forums winds up in the games.
Was pleasantly surprised about fishing and farming coming to WoW (though not farming Farmville style!). Almost a lone voice on those two activities, but something different to keep folks busy, and the farming became a hit for PvE players. Sis almost solely raised the fishing guild achieves as well -- 100,000 fish is a lot of fishing solo! That's why I talked so much about it, as it's something she likes to do in RL. Tada, she now has achieves and Nat to exalted, too.
They listen, but you'll never get credit for it. But Blizzard you know darn well what I posted about those 2 past times a lot!
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Good point although also true of "black people" some guy who's lived all his life in an African village would probabl be more mystified than entertained by "Black Entertainment Television" (which is why although often derided as PC I do think "African-American is more accurate than "black").
And you do see plenty of Scottish/German/French Canadian/whatever pride and nationalism and specific history and culture for those groups. Those people just identify as something more specific than just "white" as I imagine most "black" people do as well.
Check out the appearance of them in EQ2, they don't look human anymore and might as well be aliens.
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Well for one, if you can have an all "Black" movie, you should be able to have an all "White" movie. Sorry, logic doesn't indicate that one is mutually exclusive from another. Your not racist for not having a certain race in the movie given that the area/scene itself would not have one involved. So long as you aren't ATTACKING a certain race (mostly meaning if its raw hate speech) it has to be understood that sometimes it just doesn't work out in a "Balanced" way as in our society there are plenty of places were you will see one type of people being more prominent then another.
That said, in a fantasy themed world, it depends heavily on the world. It would likely be very similiar to our own world, likely with one race being perhaps under populated versus another in a certain region, likely in a large fashion then we see in a world were we are all so easily connected. That being said, its not unreasonable to expect the possibility some people might of traveled from far away and became part of society elsewhere. As such in the example in The Hobbit, the man could of easily of traveled from a distant land perhaps being exiled or simply trying to a seek a better life elsewhere. Heck given its a trade district it might be his efforts to sell wares from another land, using that to boost his ability to make wealth giving him a good reason for being there (haven't seen the movie so no clue whether there is a link or not).
In short: Yes, if it makes no sense for them to be there, they shouldn't be there. Just don't count out the fact the world can be very much like our own and people of different ethnicities can end up becoming part of another society whether traveling merchants or individuals just seeking a new life. A well written fantasy world will not only have races like Elves or Dwarves, but also have various 'types' of those in the world with their own differences whether in culture or appearance or both.
Samwise was fashioned after the batmen in the British army (officer stewards). The loyal Tommy Aitkens.
Tolkien was a product of his age, and by todays standards would be considered "old fashioned" to put it nicely. He was also deeply religious and a devout Roman Catholic, and very sensitive of being Catholic in Protestant England (he regarded his mother, who converted to Catholicism, a "martyr" for what she faced for doing so [she died just a decade later than her husband, leaving Tolkien and his brother orphans]). Not only did he detest the USA, he detested the French and the modern world and it's machines (he regarded the firebombing of Dresden and the atomic bomb drops as hellish). All that came from his writings. You can just regard him as your typical midlands British subject, which he was, and just as fussy.
For him the world would be what he experienced as a poor orphan during the Imperial age. His fascination for languages, like Welsh (foreign and almost driven to extinction in his day), is what drove him to write stories of fantasy of the medieval world. Add the hardships he faced as a sub-lieutenant during WWI, it shaped his worldview overall.
But his world was white with all the prejudices and racism of the time. Much like Samuel Clements (Mark Twain) was a product of his generation. It's hard to judge them because that was the status quo of the day, but they were that.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I completely agree. I would never judge the works of either by the standards - or rather 'sensibilities' - of the modern age. Part of what makes Tolkien's work so fascinating is what it reveals of the experiences of the author and the age and environment in which he lived.
What?
Any person if represented wrongly would want to amend the wrong regardless of color. If I was there when Gage went on a rant calling Asians the "c" word in EvE, I'd conspire to tear down his empire. Why? Because I remember the race riots of the 70s and the effects of desegregation. I don't take that crap in RL, and certainly not online. If you don't take a stand, baseball bats (or worse today) will used to take you down.
Devs no doubt don't want to deal with the problem they know exists in games with gamers themselves. Some games even tolerate open racists, and if they got a chance to make a mockery of other races, it won't look good for the game. Gamers can be the foulest people on Earth, and give them a match, they'll use it too.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
Yup. At the same time, gamers can be the most open towards new things and get much closer to the idea of things like race being something that just doesn't matter because what matters is the games.For example, in a video game a black man could date a white woman, and it wouldn't be that big of a deal. Most movies will not have a black man dating a white woman, unless the movie is specifically about inter-racial dating. In video games the leading role can be a black man, and players would probably still buy the game and it would probably still make just as much money if the lead character was white. In movies, unless the lead is played by Will Smith or maybe Denzel Washington, it's not going to make as much money as movies where the lead is played by someone who's white. <- This is changing a little, but not much.
There's always room for improvement, but relative to other forms of entertainment, video games and gamers seem to be a little better.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It's debatable about open. Until Blizzard tamped down trade chat it was blatantly racist (worse, guilds with openly racist names). It maybe less out of view there now, but the same people who trolled there are still ingame, and folks know people don't change racist views overnight (and I doubt Gage would stop using the "C" word, too).
There's the ideal, and there's the reality. Folks want to believe the ideal, yet the reality is 1 racist in a room of 100 is still too many.
.:| Kevyne@Shandris - Armory |:. - When WoW was #1 - .:| I AM A HOLY PALADIN - Guild Theme |:.
I don't think you got the gist of what I said. I don't want to play a rat person, but many players do like to play non humans in MMOs. As you say the majority of players play humans, but in MMOs when it comes to human culture you tend to get one or two. Extra human cultures may well get sacrificed for non human ones. I am talking from a design perspective here, it seems they often think well you have a human culture and you can play a black toon, that's good enough. I did not know about the Erudites, if they were already in lore then yes, dropping them in favour of rat people is a poor choice.
When it comes to EQN I gave up after the ninja question, they have made their decisions and do not care what the community decide. That's why I doubt you are ever going to get a question about Erudites.
This is very noticeable in games from various countries. Understanding what culture drives these choices is very very important. Quite of a few asian games ONLY basically have asian human choices among some non-human choices. This may seem even more racist to western civilities but is actually more a reflection of China and Japan being hyper isolationist for hundreds of years. Although the same result occurs (lack of racial options) it isn't the same as racism. Racism implies it was a conscience choice.
This is one example though but the reason behind the exclusion if very important to grasp. America is very unique and everyone (not just Americans) need to understand the incredible impact slavery and the civil war had on that country and how it affects it's citizens still today. Most people from countries attached to the slave trade (or be it historical cultural conflicts) are a mix of opinions ranging from truly not being racist to being racist on some level to simply not addressing the issue at all (where I believe a large part this problem originates. Political correctness often is only a mask allowing the real issue to smolder).
Despite all the efforts there is still a division especially in media of all kinds. Exclude racial options and people ask why? Include them and people think appeasement; such as all those commercials where every actor in it is a different cultural origin because, you know, everyone can only have ONE white, light brown, dark brown, black, asian or first nation friend. "SORRY! my Inuit slot if full!". Or the fact asians are the "safe" cultural option to throw in commercials. I see about a 10 to 1 to 0.1 ratio (yes guessing but it very noticeable) commercials with a white male married to an asian female, asian male is married to a white female and a black male is married to a white female. Take a look at a magazine stand next time you walk by one. Try and find a single first nations person on the cover of any popular magazine (if you do ... buy a lottery ticket).
We western people love our cultured history (which is recent by historical measures) and you won't see the word "genocide" in our empire building history. Tell that to the people who had 90-100% of their culture destroyed by imperial expansionism (from Roman rule through British rule through American rule it has all been the same ... imperialism based roughly on the same Roman political ideals. Different flavors to suit the times but the same thing. This is over 2000 years, minus some dark ages, of a few western nations influencing many other nations with their "superior" doctrine. This breeds conflict). The victors write the history books. This is what caused the slave trade to begin with. Western cultures going through a "gold rush" trying to be the first to exploit Africa which included it's very people. They became a commodity for hyper-expanding economies. Could you even imagine this happening to you? It is still happening today.
We are naive to think we can resolve this ... ever, let alone several generations of people unwilling to face the reality of what was done. Racism/sexism even exists when people are going out of their way NOT to look racist/sexist. Another example is the BBC news (this is documented issue and not just my opinion) where their news reporters look like a United Nations convention but take a quick peek inside a BBC executive boardroom and you are blinded by the pastiness of all the pale white people. The question though is if a company doesn't even consider the matter either way are they in fact being racist? I believe they still are.
A game should have ALL racial options for humans and if not serious questions need to be asked as to why the exclusion (some answers make sense like a game base entirely in a culture isolated at the time). Even if a previous game traditionally only has (let's just say it) white people, then a sequel or mmo conversion is the perfect opportunity to address this issue.
You stay sassy!
You have no problem with with asian vikings, black samurai or white shaka (Zulu warrior) in large quantities then? Does it make me a racist if I do? I think making such concessions is pampering.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Seeing what I said above makes me have no clue what you are talking about (edited slightly for clarity).
Nowhere did I suggest you should move past common sense but you certainly like to delve there. You obviously skimmed through what I read and formulated an opinion long before finishing my post. Yes I know it is long for what the average reader here is comfortable with (like anything over 2 sentences typically) but I had to be specific and clear on a very touchy subject.
The vikings were a very specific people amongst other Scandinavian cultures at the time who wouldn't really be called vikings at all. Samurai existed during a time Japan hadn't even been contacted yet by western nations and once they were they entered a couple hundred years of extreme isolation and they were a military nobility and a VERY small portion of the population. Zulu society (or collectively what made it) began pre-colonial times so how the heck would there be white people traditionally?
The examples you gave are people from cultures either isolated or existed in pre-nation building times from local societies. Basically EVERYONE was a native from their native land. I covered this very clearly as a logical exception. Please stop trying to turn what I said into controversy. I merely stated fact that you can read in any modern history book to explain how deeply seeded this issue is in (specifically) modern western society.
Although +1 on the Gretzky quote.
You stay sassy!
Personally I think the OP is out to lunch. In every MMO I've played you could play as a black person.
Well let's say im creating a game based on medival german, slavic europe, should i place black ppl in that game? No, because there were no black ppl
.
Maybe black ppl make no sense for some games (for instance The Witcher, game and book from what i know have no black ppl at all, because it is based on medival era). Fantasy games are mostly based on medival europe, ancient asia.
It is up to the game creator if he put yellow, black, white, red ppl into the game, why should we all fall under this stupid political corectness? If i made the game about ancient afrika (before colonial era) i wouldn't include white ppl in it.
Its not just about playing a black person which in most mmos result in nothing but the brown color choice during character creation.
It has to do with playing a -race- a -culture-
Something like the Elonians in Nightfall, the Erudites of EQ1 and the Redguard of Elder Scrolls. People with their own lands, own languages and own beliefs.
Oh and history from one of your own people
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cDUGrUFdc5E
Any mmo worth its salt should be like a good prostitute when it comes to its game world- One hell of a faker, and a damn good shaker!
Why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means you would have a different culture?
In most MMO's they are grouped by race: Dwarf, Human, Elf... not by skin color so once again, why would you assume that in a fantasy game a different skin color means different culture?
Why there should always be an option.
And not only did I play those games, and those characters, and more, but I brought my friends to play them and ran guilds in a lot of them too.
And if it's more important to a game to stick with their storyline than to make that comes with acknowledging me, even just a little bit, then whatever. I'll find the one that can get both done responsibly.
Just thinking about it, I was big on Wizardry right up until I got to character selection then....psssh...really? And I went right to something else as soon as the game got boring, which didn't take long.
See it's not just that picking someone that makes you feel good is the only thing, but it also helps keep you interested in times when you otherwise might not be. A good product should try its best to marry the user to their avatar if possible, and you just can't get that by excluding the basics.
One thing I think you are missing is that MMOs have become very pared down over the years. So much has been removed for the sake of what has been called streamlining and is really killing off anything other than the most basic of gameplay. In such an environment we have lost roleplay tools, meaningful crafting, housing you name it. To expect MMOs to have many divergent human cultures is a bit of an ask. So the non white ones have gone to the wall.
I was surprised to see ESO had three (?) human cultures, but then it is going to be P2P with the extra funding that involves. But in these days of stripping MMOs down to what companies see as the essentials we have lost way too much. After ESO I am not sure when we are going to have another MMO that bothers to have that many different human cultures.