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Are mmos becoming frequently easier and easier ?

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  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
     

      Tedious work is also challenging, like you said earlier it's all subjective. I personally love the tedious grind in games which is what draws me to the eastern type MMOs; due to the fact that they prefer that type of game-play. A developer can only make the AI so intelligent. If a game is to become more challenging they have to start taking away strength from a player so that they hit hard, take more damage, and/or have less life overall.

    That is you. Tedious .. is just tedious to me.

  • GuyClinchGuyClinch Sunnyvale, CAPosts: 485Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Mtibbs1989
     

      Tedious work is also challenging, like you said earlier it's all subjective. I personally love the tedious grind in games which is what draws me to the eastern type MMOs; due to the fact that they prefer that type of game-play. A developer can only make the AI so intelligent. If a game is to become more challenging they have to start taking away strength from a player so that they hit hard, take more damage, and/or have less life overall.

    That is you. Tedious .. is just tedious to me.

     

    The developers goal is to make the tedium so fun you don't really its tedious. And they do a better job of that with better combat systems and better trade skill systems. Story only works the first time around - that's something SWTOR needed to learn the hard way.

    PvP is one of the best ways to make tedium fun. Because you are going against real life players in different scenarios - done right it can keep people playing for thousands of hours. People bashed ME3 - but I thought the multi-player was a ton of fun. That's the kind of thing they need in modern MMOs.

    And I believe developers can deliver.

    Personally I don't think a market exists in the West for long slow grinds. I don't consider these sort of timesinks as useful or fun. It's just a lazy mechanic on the part of the developer and the modern player won't stomach it. Not even the players on this forum who whimper with nostalgia about it but seem to actually play very few MMOS.

    You know how I know - because people that raid at the highest levels in WoW, or do the highest fractals in GW2 - don't consider it easy for the most part. Unless you are part of Death and Taxes or something like that..

  • haplo602haplo602 Posts: 212Member Uncommon

    iNoRightAnswer in the poll :-)

     

    There are 2 main contributions:

     

    1. Google. Let's face it, internet is different from what it was when UO launched. Today you get tons of information even before the game is released due to beta access being sold to people. Guides, walkthroughsm instruction videos, stat calculators and the like. You can find the answer to almost any issue in minutes.

     

    2. "Grind removal". I put that into quotes since the only "grind" that was removed is the need to socialize to get group content done. Dungeon finders, instant action variants and group finders did remove a lot of obstacles that hindered progress. Not to mention solo gamplay being the norm more and more.

     

    The only game from back then that did NOT dumb down is EVE Online (at least from the ones I did play). All the other games introduced the features above as some kind of improvement. Newer games take them as a standard and som basic funtionality like chat and mailing or other guild content is absent. This clearly shows the direction towards solo play.

     

    I will not mention lack of difficult content since point number 1 actualy invalidates any development resources dedicated to such.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Yes, because more money is made by not upsetting people who hate to see their hero fail, falter, or spend too much time trying at anything than by catering to those who want to brave the possibility of said potentialities. The former contingent will likely quit if their hand isn't held because their interest is casual to begin with, while the latter group is more likely to remain through such watering down because their interest in the genre is not likely to be as casual. They will take what they can get. Happy casuals + disgruntled hobbyists = more money than just happy hobbyists, and if publishers want to chance losing one group, it will be the smaller group.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by haplo602

    The only game from back then that did NOT dumb down is EVE Online (at least from the ones I did play). All the other games introduced the features above as some kind of improvement. Newer games take them as a standard and som basic funtionality like chat and mailing or other guild content is absent. This clearly shows the direction towards solo play.

     

    EvE got rid of requiring the learning skills to faster learn skills, so it's in the same situation as other MMOs in the "dumbing down" = faster leveling = more players thingee going on throughout MMOs.

     

    When I came back earlier this year, the game changed drastically not only in skills now required, it even introduced more solo content (PI for example).

     

    So even EvE is trying to get more people into the game and skill trained (and there's other methods players do to not have to grind for 80 days of skill training vs 40!), faster.

     

    No MMO (not even MuDs) are unaffected by this need to remove the old school grind. If folks thought EvE got 500k accounts because it's the same game as 2004, they weren't paying attention to the changes in even 3 years. EvE would have millions of players if 2 things happened to the game: CCP kept it's meathooks out of the game (they're too hands on and favoring of the large corps); and more PvE content (incursions is raiding in EvE, and a step in that PvE direction). It's a beautiful game, but you can't really enjoy it due to it's total PvP mechanics, folks treat the game like toilet paper...and how I'm detesting PvP more and more for doing just that to games.

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by UNATCOII
    Originally posted by haplo602

    The only game from back then that did NOT dumb down is EVE Online (at least from the ones I did play). All the other games introduced the features above as some kind of improvement. Newer games take them as a standard and som basic funtionality like chat and mailing or other guild content is absent. This clearly shows the direction towards solo play.

     

    EvE got rid of requiring the learning skills to faster learn skills, so it's in the same situation as other MMOs in the "dumbing down" = faster leveling = more players thingee going on throughout MMOs.

    That's not why CCP removed them. Learning skills got cut because they didn't bring anything good to the table. They were the first skill set to train during which a new player didn't get to fly new ships or fire new guns. You can't possibly expect a new player to sit on his/her hands for nearly a month before getting to the skills which really start to matter.

    Decision between gimping yourself and not gimping yourself is not a choice at all. Therefore, it doesn't add any depth to the game either.

    Learning skills were a bad idea in the first place.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • haplo602haplo602 Posts: 212Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by UNATCOII
    Originally posted by haplo602

    The only game from back then that did NOT dumb down is EVE Online (at least from the ones I did play). All the other games introduced the features above as some kind of improvement. Newer games take them as a standard and som basic funtionality like chat and mailing or other guild content is absent. This clearly shows the direction towards solo play.

     

    EvE got rid of requiring the learning skills to faster learn skills, so it's in the same situation as other MMOs in the "dumbing down" = faster leveling = more players thingee going on throughout MMOs.

     

    When I came back earlier this year, the game changed drastically not only in skills now required, it even introduced more solo content (PI for example).

     

    So even EvE is trying to get more people into the game and skill trained (and there's other methods players do to not have to grind for 80 days of skill training vs 40!), faster.

     

    No MMO (not even MuDs) are unaffected by this need to remove the old school grind. If folks thought EvE got 500k accounts because it's the same game as 2004, they weren't paying attention to the changes in even 3 years. EvE would have millions of players if 2 things happened to the game: CCP kept it's meathooks out of the game (they're too hands on and favoring of the large corps); and more PvE content (incursions is raiding in EvE, and a step in that PvE direction). It's a beautiful game, but you can't really enjoy it due to it's total PvP mechanics, folks treat the game like toilet paper...and how I'm detesting PvP more and more for doing just that to games.

    Oh I remember those .. I had all the advanced ones at 4 ... but they were not serving any other purpose than a time sink. they did not allow you to use new things or accomplish anything in a different way.

    Every other thing in the game was changed and enhanced after some trial and error. The game really progressed sicne the community and devs worked closely together.


    EDIT: PvE is not the main focus of the game. That was stated again and again by devs and players. And I do agree with that. It just serves as a money maker and time sink until there is something PvP related to do :-))

  • WikileaksEUWikileaksEU GothenburgPosts: 106Member
    Not really easier, but they are becoming more accessible and for a wider audience. 100% of the content won't be challenging to the extent it would take 2 months to complete it.
  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by haplo602
    Originally posted by UNATCOII
    Originally posted by haplo602

    The only game from back then that did NOT dumb down is EVE Online (at least from the ones I did play). All the other games introduced the features above as some kind of improvement. Newer games take them as a standard and som basic funtionality like chat and mailing or other guild content is absent. This clearly shows the direction towards solo play.

     

    EvE got rid of requiring the learning skills to faster learn skills, so it's in the same situation as other MMOs in the "dumbing down" = faster leveling = more players thingee going on throughout MMOs.

     

    When I came back earlier this year, the game changed drastically not only in skills now required, it even introduced more solo content (PI for example).

     

    So even EvE is trying to get more people into the game and skill trained (and there's other methods players do to not have to grind for 80 days of skill training vs 40!), faster.

     

    No MMO (not even MuDs) are unaffected by this need to remove the old school grind. If folks thought EvE got 500k accounts because it's the same game as 2004, they weren't paying attention to the changes in even 3 years. EvE would have millions of players if 2 things happened to the game: CCP kept it's meathooks out of the game (they're too hands on and favoring of the large corps); and more PvE content (incursions is raiding in EvE, and a step in that PvE direction). It's a beautiful game, but you can't really enjoy it due to it's total PvP mechanics, folks treat the game like toilet paper...and how I'm detesting PvP more and more for doing just that to games.

    Oh I remember those .. I had all the advanced ones at 4 ... but they were not serving any other purpose than a time sink. they did not allow you to use new things or accomplish anything in a different way.

    Every other thing in the game was changed and enhanced after some trial and error. The game really progressed sicne the community and devs worked closely together.


    EDIT: PvE is not the main focus of the game. That was stated again and again by devs and players. And I do agree with that. It just serves as a money maker and time sink until there is something PvP related to do :-))

    They allowed skilling to be faster, which in turn allowed players to get into different hulls and train different tech before they're 80 years old (remember someone did a count of how long it would take to train all the skills in EvE 3 years ago -- over 25 years).

     

    25 years.

     

    Any game with time sink issues is EvE. Nice to have some, but the rank and file claims "you don't need all the skills, we'll get you in a dessie to PvP in 3 days, tops!", yet the game is built on skilling tech from the ground up. Those PvPers aren't going to do much PvP, if there's not enough PvE players to grease the wheels. That's why EvE has stagnant number of players (real players, not multiple accounts per players), because all the pewpewpew has to be possible with the very thing they scream they hate and prey upon...the miner and trader.

     

    It's a game I play for a change of venue, but it will never be a permanent game for me, as it's so schizophrenic in how they want the game run.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by immodium

    Originally posted by Betaguy
    It's not that they were ever hard or challenging. What has been changed is the tedious nuances removed. True story bra.
    This. If they re-released the old games today with shinier graphics to the masses. No one would complain they are harder, just tedious.
    "Nobody?" One thing I have found is that absolutes, ie: everyone, nobody, all, none, and the like are usually false. Most of the time there is at least one exception to any absolute statement.

    I find it more interesting that because *you* and the poster you quoted found old games "tedious", you can not fathom that someone else, ANYONE else, may have actually found them fun.

    Everyone has their own definition for what "work" or "tedious" is. Projecting your own definition is not very productive.

    I played EQ for over 3 years. I did not play any of the other 20-30 MMORPGs out at the time because I was having fun with EQ. I missed out on UO, SW:G, AoC, DAoC, and many other games out between 2001-2004 (my EQ playing days). Can you imagine that?

    ======================================
    As for the poll: I answered "Maybe."

    It is a mix of games becoming easier (the main portion of this mix) and the player's familiarity with this genre (the smaller portion of this mix).

    The funny thing is, I am unsure what I would find "tedious" today because I have become "spoiled" with the MMOs of today. I still find enjoyment playing an old version of EQ every now and then, but I am not itching to log into that server day in and day and out, like I used to in the original MMORPG. I also enjoy logging into the new easier version of EQ, but again, it does not grab me like it used to.

    I try to imagine an MMORPG that has no map, "!'s", "?'s", quest markers on a map, red circles of death mysteriously outlined on the ground about my feet (because players are too STUPID to not stand in fire), with healing and crowd control for everyone and I just cannot imagine it anymore. I think *I* am getting dumber and dumber thanks to the games put out today.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • RoshaRosha Fredericton, NBPosts: 29Member Uncommon

    Yes.

    Gone are the days of skill and brain power used for enjoyment. 

    The challenge is toned down so that everyone can play at what they think is the same level.  With 'out of game' walkthroughs generated all over the net it became easier and easier to find the information. Some games have taken such walkthroughs into the game, with icons over characters to find the quest, arrows to point you where you need to go - in most cases players no longer read the context of the quest they just go do it because it's xp.  A couple games have been creative and inserted the internet into the game, even modified it to their needs (Secret World and the Google search ingame).

    Aside from the walkthroughs and online videos showing players how to do things now games let you level past all that drudgery and buy up levels or super xp potions, some games now simply sell high level characters.

    This results a lot in players who don't know how to play their characters properly in that game, sure there's typical similarities regardless of which role in the menagerie you play, but there's usually nuances of each game still needed to be learned, not bought - but hey if your friends are ok with it, who am I to expect similar practice of the others virutally beside me when you sign up to join a raid group...

     

    Hard is no longer defined as having to think up the answer to riddles, wait out timers and call in favors to retrieve your corpse, no they're not fun, instead now hard is simply a bazillion hit points on a mob that has 3 phases or so that you simply have to endure to win. 

    Gone is the day of reading/listening to NPC text and figuring out the clues needed to complete your quest, just stick out your nose and let the hook take you on autorun/fly/swim.

     

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member


    Originally posted by AlBQuirky   I try to imagine an MMORPG that has no map, "!'s", "?'s", quest markers on a map, red circles of death mysteriously outlined on the ground about my feet (because players are too STUPID to not stand in fire), with healing and crowd control for everyone and I just cannot imagine it anymore. I think *I* am getting dumber and dumber thanks to the games put out today.  
     


    Come on, just because a game didn't have exclamation points or quills to show quest givers then, doesn't mean today it's "dumbing down" a game. Travellers have to be aware that something is in the vicinity, and would you really want to talk to all the NPCs in a modern MMO to get a breadcrumb to start a new quest? In the old days (back in the 80s) that was done because there was maybe 1 NPC you could interact with in an inn (and it had the usual pointers that s/he was someone to talk too...the other shadows weren't approachable to talk too).


    Many features back then weren't implemented because they just never thought of it as an idea (to copy).


    Over time newer ideas come out (love the group looting seen in RIFT, for example, as in WoW it was so needed, as trying to loot 20 bodies one-by-one WAS tedious, and nonsensical, when 1 or 2 bodies could prevent looting other bodies below the mass of dead). Same goes for flight and fast travel. If you're raising your 15th alt, the last thing you want to do is go through -- for the 15th time -- the same routes and headaches.


    So yes, new ideas are a great thing in gaming...especially in established games getting long on the tooth.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by UNATCOII

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    I try to imagine an MMORPG that has no map, "!'s", "?'s", quest markers on a map, red circles of death mysteriously outlined on the ground about my feet (because players are too STUPID to not stand in fire), with healing and crowd control for everyone and I just cannot imagine it anymore. I think *I* am getting dumber and dumber thanks to the games put out today.
     
    Come on, just because a game didn't have exclamation points or quills to show quest givers then, doesn't mean today it's "dumbing down" a game. Travellers have to be aware that something is in the vicinity, and would you really want to talk to all the NPCs in a modern MMO to get a breadcrumb to start a new quest? In the old days (back in the 80s) that was done because there was maybe 1 NPC you could interact with in an inn (and it had the usual pointers that s/he was someone to talk too...the other shadows weren't approachable to talk too).Many features back then weren't implemented because they just never thought of it as an idea (to copy).Over time newer ideas come out (love the group looting seen in RIFT, for example, as in WoW it was so needed, as trying to loot 20 bodies one-by-one WAS tedious, and nonsensical, when 1 or 2 bodies could prevent looting other bodies below the mass of dead). Same goes for flight and fast travel. If you're raising your 15th alt, the last thing you want to do is go through -- for the 15th time -- the same routes and headaches.So yes, new ideas are a great thing in gaming...especially in established games getting long on the tooth.
    Isn't that very essence of what is being talked about? Why do "Travelers need to be aware" of a quest in an area? Why? Is it because they "need" to be lead around in the game? Talk to THIS (!) NPC for some content is NOT a necessarily an "improvement."

    What is wrong with chatting to NPCs in a game? Oh, right, it is TOO SLOW! I'm not maximizing my XP/second rate!

    I have feeling that soon, a player will enter a zone and *poof* quests appear on the quest tracker. The only interaction may happen when turning in the quest, but maybe that will go by the wayside, too. When you loot that 10th rat tail, they all disappear from your inventory and now a new shiny piece of armor or weapon magically appears in its place.

    Time. It all boils down to time. In the old games, I actually ENJOYED spending time in the game. Today, players can not BEAT the game fast enough so they can move on to the next one. Is it any wonder the genre is in the state it is in?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,837Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by UNATCOII

    Originally posted by AlBQuirky
    I try to imagine an MMORPG that has no map, "!'s", "?'s", quest markers on a map, red circles of death mysteriously outlined on the ground about my feet (because players are too STUPID to not stand in fire), with healing and crowd control for everyone and I just cannot imagine it anymore. I think *I* am getting dumber and dumber thanks to the games put out today.

     
    Come on, just because a game didn't have exclamation points or quills to show quest givers then, doesn't mean today it's "dumbing down" a game. Travellers have to be aware that something is in the vicinity, and would you really want to talk to all the NPCs in a modern MMO to get a breadcrumb to start a new quest? In the old days (back in the 80s) that was done because there was maybe 1 NPC you could interact with in an inn (and it had the usual pointers that s/he was someone to talk too...the other shadows weren't approachable to talk too).

     

    Many features back then weren't implemented because they just never thought of it as an idea (to copy).

    Over time newer ideas come out (love the group looting seen in RIFT, for example, as in WoW it was so needed, as trying to loot 20 bodies one-by-one WAS tedious, and nonsensical, when 1 or 2 bodies could prevent looting other bodies below the mass of dead). Same goes for flight and fast travel. If you're raising your 15th alt, the last thing you want to do is go through -- for the 15th time -- the same routes and headaches.

    So yes, new ideas are a great thing in gaming...especially in established games getting long on the tooth.


    Isn't that very essence of what is being talked about? Why do "Travelers need to be aware" of a quest in an area? Why? Is it because they "need" to be lead around in the game? Talk to THIS (!) NPC for some content is NOT a necessarily an "improvement."

     

    What is wrong with chatting to NPCs in a game? Oh, right, it is TOO SLOW! I'm not maximizing my XP/second rate!

    I have feeling that soon, a player will enter a zone and *poof* quests appear on the quest tracker. The only interaction may happen when turning in the quest, but maybe that will go by the wayside, too. When you loot that 10th rat tail, they all disappear from your inventory and now a new shiny piece of armor or weapon magically appears in its place.

    Time. It all boils down to time. In the old games, I actually ENJOYED spending time in the game. Today, players can not BEAT the game fast enough so they can move on to the next one. Is it any wonder the genre is in the state it is in?

    Which begs the question of weather the game is really fun at all and why are you playing it?  A lot of people complained about the issues/inconveniences in the old MMOs.  I was one of those people.  I wanted to solo, wanted faster leveling, and wanted everything easier and more streamlined.  What I realized after playing WoW and other MMOs is that games like Ultima Oline and Everquest were special.  It was the frustration, having to figure things out yourself, and being forced to interact on some level that made the game memorable.  Even the grind was memorable.  People who played EQ almost all have a story of a long camp spot where they waited to get X item for days.  Most people who played EQ would probably have fond memories of things like getting KEI in the Nexus, getting buffs/items in the newbie zone from high levels players, getting killed or trained, having a kind soul help them retrieve their lost corpse, trading in the tunnel of ro(or other places).  Perhaps it was a good thing that those annoying issues were forced on people.  I bet there are few people who play MMOs in this generation that have anything memorable to say about the games they play at all or very little.  I have a few memories of Vanilla EQ that were good, but nothing like Ultima Online or EQ.  I guess the lesson is anything memorable has things you struggle with that are frustrating.

  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Mt marion, NYPosts: 1,535Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Pala
    Originally posted by Anthur
     

    Just regarding your last sentence, for me it is fun to overcome obstacles in order to reach my goal. That is meaningful progression for me. But I know that it is a very old fashioned way to do things. I just have a different oppinion and I know nobody would create a MMO nowadays for a dinosaur like me. I am not angry about that , just a little sad maybe. ;)

    I just don't understand what pursuing interests without overcoming challenges means - I get it all free initially and just play around or what. Overcoming challenges is fun, anything in life worth doing has an element of challenge. Totally confused as to where this fun is without obstacles.

    For many people (especially nowadays), the only enjoyment is in acquiring the reward, not doing the content required to obtain it. For them, the fun is in "being there", not "getting there". They see anything that prevents them from getting there to be an 'unnecessary obstacle'.

    The poster Anthur is responding to says it themself.

    "Fun is pursuing interests, it's not going over the obstacles to get there. That's filler, that's cheapness thrown in to stall progression."

     Although, it's interesting how they say it's fun to pursue interests... only to turn around and immediately dismiss/disqualify anything that would make them a pursuit at all (referring to obstacles/challenges as 'filler thrown in to stall progression'). Statements like that say so much more about the individual's perspective than the words alone would indicate.

    Regardless, that's exactly how many people these days think about these games. "Don't make me earn it. Don't give me obstacles I have to overcome, or challenges I have to defeat. Don't make me earn it. That's not fun. Just give me my damn rewards. That's all I care about."

    People nowadays are 95% Destination, 5% Journey. They're 5% Effort, 95% Reward. Some may push that balance even farther. I've seen people I'd say are closer to 1% and 99%. Still others feel they're entitled to whatever they want simply for logging in.

    This is the kind of gamer developers have to "appease" nowadays, and I don't envy them one bit. Imagine what it must be like trying to create a fun, engaging and challenging game.. full knowing that a large portion of your intended market is only interested in how generously you dole out rewards, and will consider any interesting challenge or gameplay element you implement to be "useless filler".

    These people don't actually want a game to play. They want a Virtual Achievement Dispenser; a game that makes them do hardly anything, rewards them as though they'd just done something epic, and calls it "progression".

    Sad, but it's pretty clear (at least to me) that that's pretty much what the genre has become.

     

     

  • dinamsdinams Muriae, VAPosts: 1,362Member
    That last option put a smile on my face

    "It has potential"
    -Second most used phrase on existence
    "It sucks"
    -Most used phrase on existence

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by TangentPoint
    Originally posted by Pala
    Originally posted by Anthur
     

    Just regarding your last sentence, for me it is fun to overcome obstacles in order to reach my goal. That is meaningful progression for me. But I know that it is a very old fashioned way to do things. I just have a different oppinion and I know nobody would create a MMO nowadays for a dinosaur like me. I am not angry about that , just a little sad maybe. ;)

    I just don't understand what pursuing interests without overcoming challenges means - I get it all free initially and just play around or what. Overcoming challenges is fun, anything in life worth doing has an element of challenge. Totally confused as to where this fun is without obstacles.

    For many people (especially nowadays), the only enjoyment is in acquiring the reward, not doing the content required to obtain it. For them, the fun is in "being there", not "getting there". They see anything that prevents them from getting there to be an 'unnecessary obstacle'.

    The poster Anthur is responding to says it themself.

    "Fun is pursuing interests, it's not going over the obstacles to get there. That's filler, that's cheapness thrown in to stall progression."

     Although, it's interesting how they say it's fun to pursue interests... only to turn around and immediately dismiss/disqualify anything that would make them a pursuit at all (referring to obstacles/challenges as 'filler thrown in to stall progression').

    Regardless, that's exactly how many people these days think about these games. "Don't make me earn it. Don't give me obstacles I have to overcome. Just give me my damn rewards. That's all I care about."

    People nowadays are 95% Destination, 5% Journey. They're 5% Effort, 95% Reward. Some may push that balance even farther. I've seen people I'd say are closer to 1% and 99%. Still others feel they're entitled to whatever they want simply for logging in.

    This is the kind of gamer developers have to "appease" nowadays, and I don't envy them one bit. Imagine what it must be like trying to create a fun, engaging and challenging game.. full knowing that a large portion of your intended market is only interested in a small portion of it. They don't want a game to play. They just want a game that frequently tosses them the maximum reward for the least possible effort, and calls it "progression".

    Sad, but it's pretty clear (at least to me) that that's pretty much what the genre has become.

     

     

    Because that "Anthor" has been playing video games for over 30 years, and after awhile the "progression" to accomplish something in a game is seen for it's purpose, not it's worth.

     

    This morning I was looking through a woodworker catalogue, and mentioned to my sis, that to be a woodworker and master the tools in that catalogue it would take 20 years. Now a woodworker would start with something easy (building shelves, for example; or learning how to make shapes on a lathe), but he has no artificial roadblocks to start, nor to reach master level in his interest, but of time and maybe money (some of those tools are insanely priced!). Games don't do that. The means to master a trade -- or even a combat skill -- is artificial and a lot of times not even related to his budding mastery. Where in RL the woodworker could possibly even forage for his own wood, in games it becomes a feat of strength just to get resources.

     

    To me game "challenges" isn't artificial roadblocks, it's time spent on what they want to master that's fun. When a game puts 3 mahogany trees I need to make a fine table, and surround it by a pack of level 100 wolves for a sense of "danger", they missed the "progression" of woodworking completely. EQII at least had it right about the tradeskill stations, make a wrong selection and half your life could disappear...that's what can happen if you're not careful of your tools!

     

    Understand now?

  • AeliousAelious Portland, ORPosts: 2,853Member Uncommon

    Yes and to their own detriment as you can see by the one or two month interest most titles garner.  When you trivialize something you take away a portion of it's value.  I'm not talking about tedious steps to goals, I'm talking about difficulty of gameplay.  What's funny is that I don't think it was ever really asked for.  One MMO did it and since it kept growing everyone assumed that was the answer and copied it.  Hopefully this trend will change.

     

    I've never heard someone say: "This MMO is really fun but I died a few times so I refuse to play it."

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by UNATCOII

    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    Originally posted by Pala

    Originally posted by Anthur


    Just regarding your last sentence, for me it is fun to overcome obstacles in order to reach my goal. That is meaningful progression for me. But I know that it is a very old fashioned way to do things. I just have a different oppinion and I know nobody would create a MMO nowadays for a dinosaur like me. I am not angry about that , just a little sad maybe. ;)
    I just don't understand what pursuing interests without overcoming challenges means - I get it all free initially and just play around or what. Overcoming challenges is fun, anything in life worth doing has an element of challenge. Totally confused as to where this fun is without obstacles.
    For many people (especially nowadays), the only enjoyment is in acquiring the reward, not doing the content required to obtain it. For them, the fun is in "being there", not "getting there". They see anything that prevents them from getting there to be an 'unnecessary obstacle'.The poster Anthur is responding to says it themself.
    "Fun is pursuing interests, it's not going over the obstacles to get there. That's filler, that's cheapness thrown in to stall progression."Although, it's interesting how they say it's fun to pursue interests... only to turn around and immediately dismiss/disqualify anything that would make them a pursuit at all (referring to obstacles/challenges as 'filler thrown in to stall progression').Regardless, that's exactly how many people these days think about these games. "Don't make me earn it. Don't give me obstacles I have to overcome. Just give me my damn rewards. That's all I care about."People nowadays are 95% Destination, 5% Journey. They're 5% Effort, 95% Reward. Some may push that balance even farther. I've seen people I'd say are closer to 1% and 99%. Still others feel they're entitled to whatever they want simply for logging in.This is the kind of gamer developers have to "appease" nowadays, and I don't envy them one bit. Imagine what it must be like trying to create a fun, engaging and challenging game.. full knowing that a large portion of your intended market is only interested in a small portion of it. They don't want a game to play. They just want a game that frequently tosses them the maximum reward for the least possible effort, and calls it "progression".Sad, but it's pretty clear (at least to me) that that's pretty much what the genre has become.

    Because that "Anthor" has been playing video games for over 30 years, and after awhile the "progression" to accomplish something in a game is seen for it's purpose, not it's worth.This morning I was looking through a woodworker catalogue, and mentioned to my sis, that to be a woodworker and master the tools in that catalogue it would take 20 years. Now a woodworker would start with something easy (building shelves, for example; or learning how to make shapes on a lathe), but he has no artificial roadblocks to start, nor to reach master level in his interest, but of time and maybe money (some of those tools are insanely priced!). Games don't do that. The means to master a trade -- or even a combat skill -- is artificial and a lot of times not even related to his budding mastery. Where in RL the woodworker could possibly even forage for his own wood, in games it becomes a feat of strength just to get resources.To me game "challenges" isn't artificial roadblocks, it's time spent on what they want to master that's fun. When a game puts 3 mahogany trees I need to make a fine table, and surround it by a pack of level 100 wolves for a sense of "danger", they missed the "progression" of woodworking completely. EQII at least had it right about the tradeskill stations, make a wrong selection and half your life could disappear...that's what can happen if you're not careful of your tools!Understand now?
    That's all good and all and I agree with your basis. However, how does a game (an MMO in this case) simulate a woodworker a making enough money to purchase the tools and lumber?

    How do games simulate 4 years of "boring" classes to get a college degree?

    A lot of what you are speaking about "assumes" a lot of actions going behind the scenes. How does that woodworker get to a point where he knows how to work on a lathe?

    Remember, the games have to "simulate" what happens in the real world with mouse clicks, keystrokes, and such. How do you propose they accomplish this? What you declare as "artificial" in terms of "the real world" may not be in a game.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Aelious

    Yes and to their own detriment as you can see by the one or two month interest most titles garner.  When you trivialize something you take away a portion of it's value.  I'm not talking about tedious steps to goals, I'm talking about difficulty of gameplay.  What's funny is that I don't think it was ever really asked for.  One MMO did it and since it kept growing everyone assumed that was the answer and copied it.  Hopefully this trend will change.

     

    I've never heard someone say: "This MMO is really fun but I died a few times so I refuse to play it."

    Well, they don't face permadeath of their favorite toon, either. ^-^

  • haplo602haplo602 Posts: 212Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by UNATCOII

    They allowed skilling to be faster, which in turn allowed players to get into different hulls and train different tech before they're 80 years old (remember someone did a count of how long it would take to train all the skills in EvE 3 years ago -- over 25 years).

     

    25 years.

     

    Any game with time sink issues is EvE. Nice to have some, but the rank and file claims "you don't need all the skills, we'll get you in a dessie to PvP in 3 days, tops!", yet the game is built on skilling tech from the ground up. Those PvPers aren't going to do much PvP, if there's not enough PvE players to grease the wheels. That's why EvE has stagnant number of players (real players, not multiple accounts per players), because all the pewpewpew has to be possible with the very thing they scream they hate and prey upon...the miner and trader.

     

    It's a game I play for a change of venue, but it will never be a permanent game for me, as it's so schizophrenic in how they want the game run.

    ok last one about EVE, the learning skills also enabled certain implants iirc ...

     

    anyway the 3 day  (or one week) PvP is true. the thing is, there was a role for almost anybody. however you had to know what to do and when. this was the main learning point. and about the 25 years, you simply had to pick what you liked. either by activity or ship or skill set (l4 missions ? inty pilot ? research ? trade ?). the smart ones did and were good at it (I was not one of those actualy).

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    That's all good and all and I agree with your basis. However, how does a game (an MMO in this case) simulate a woodworker a making enough money to purchase the tools and lumber?

     

    How do games simulate 4 years of "boring" classes to get a college degree?

    A lot of what you are speaking about "assumes" a lot of actions going behind the scenes. How does that woodworker get to a point where he knows how to work on a lathe?

    Remember, the games have to "simulate" what happens in the real world with mouse clicks, keystrokes, and such. How do you propose they accomplish this? What you declare as "artificial" in terms of "the real world" may not be in a game.

    Simple: Don't simulate it. If you can't make it fun, don't do it at all. All books and movies skip the boring bits: the training, the traveling, the day to day life... Usually just one sentence on a page or one small transitional scene. A montage at most.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by UNATCOII

    Originally posted by TangentPoint

    Originally posted by Pala

    Originally posted by Anthur


    Just regarding your last sentence, for me it is fun to overcome obstacles in order to reach my goal. That is meaningful progression for me. But I know that it is a very old fashioned way to do things. I just have a different oppinion and I know nobody would create a MMO nowadays for a dinosaur like me. I am not angry about that , just a little sad maybe. ;)
    I just don't understand what pursuing interests without overcoming challenges means - I get it all free initially and just play around or what. Overcoming challenges is fun, anything in life worth doing has an element of challenge. Totally confused as to where this fun is without obstacles.
    For many people (especially nowadays), the only enjoyment is in acquiring the reward, not doing the content required to obtain it. For them, the fun is in "being there", not "getting there". They see anything that prevents them from getting there to be an 'unnecessary obstacle'.

     

    The poster Anthur is responding to says it themself.
    "Fun is pursuing interests, it's not going over the obstacles to get there. That's filler, that's cheapness thrown in to stall progression."

    Although, it's interesting how they say it's fun to pursue interests... only to turn around and immediately dismiss/disqualify anything that would make them a pursuit at all (referring to obstacles/challenges as 'filler thrown in to stall progression').

    Regardless, that's exactly how many people these days think about these games. "Don't make me earn it. Don't give me obstacles I have to overcome. Just give me my damn rewards. That's all I care about."

    People nowadays are 95% Destination, 5% Journey. They're 5% Effort, 95% Reward. Some may push that balance even farther. I've seen people I'd say are closer to 1% and 99%. Still others feel they're entitled to whatever they want simply for logging in.

    This is the kind of gamer developers have to "appease" nowadays, and I don't envy them one bit. Imagine what it must be like trying to create a fun, engaging and challenging game.. full knowing that a large portion of your intended market is only interested in a small portion of it. They don't want a game to play. They just want a game that frequently tosses them the maximum reward for the least possible effort, and calls it "progression".

    Sad, but it's pretty clear (at least to me) that that's pretty much what the genre has become.


    Because that "Anthor" has been playing video games for over 30 years, and after awhile the "progression" to accomplish something in a game is seen for it's purpose, not it's worth.

     

    This morning I was looking through a woodworker catalogue, and mentioned to my sis, that to be a woodworker and master the tools in that catalogue it would take 20 years. Now a woodworker would start with something easy (building shelves, for example; or learning how to make shapes on a lathe), but he has no artificial roadblocks to start, nor to reach master level in his interest, but of time and maybe money (some of those tools are insanely priced!). Games don't do that. The means to master a trade -- or even a combat skill -- is artificial and a lot of times not even related to his budding mastery. Where in RL the woodworker could possibly even forage for his own wood, in games it becomes a feat of strength just to get resources.

    To me game "challenges" isn't artificial roadblocks, it's time spent on what they want to master that's fun. When a game puts 3 mahogany trees I need to make a fine table, and surround it by a pack of level 100 wolves for a sense of "danger", they missed the "progression" of woodworking completely. EQII at least had it right about the tradeskill stations, make a wrong selection and half your life could disappear...that's what can happen if you're not careful of your tools!

    Understand now?


    That's all good and all and I agree with your basis. However, how does a game (an MMO in this case) simulate a woodworker a making enough money to purchase the tools and lumber?

     

    How do games simulate 4 years of "boring" classes to get a college degree?

    A lot of what you are speaking about "assumes" a lot of actions going behind the scenes. How does that woodworker get to a point where he knows how to work on a lathe?

    Remember, the games have to "simulate" what happens in the real world with mouse clicks, keystrokes, and such. How do you propose they accomplish this? What you declare as "artificial" in terms of "the real world" may not be in a game.

    If a game could simulate college and reward a degree that's legit, we wouldn't be here today! lol

     

    Seriously, I pointed out the EQII example of how it's done where it's related to the skill. The element of "danger" is tied to what you're doing, not the environment itself (I think we're past that simplistic copy/paste stage now in game design).

     

    If you need "danger" in lumberjacking, for example, make the damn tree hit the lumberjack on the head! Miner looking for ore, make him construct a mine and upkeep it and to take steps to keep it safe from cave-ins; explosions and floods. Not the stupid "danger" scenarios like PvP and animals wanting to eat you. There's enough dangers in the work place, devs can just look them up and implement them (when I read the Blizzard devs wanting such info about what/when/where on things, I wonder do they bother to look past their noses sometimes? How can I know and they do not? If you have to seek answers, you need to know the question, too).

     

    I don't want more fake scenarios, for an idea of "challenge" or "skill". It's fake, unrelated and there as an obstacle with little meaning but ease to program and to artificially slow progression. Yet it does nothing for the enjoyment of the pursuit of fun, which is why people play video games!

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by GuyClinch
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    That is you. Tedious .. is just tedious to me.

     

    The developers goal is to make the tedium so fun you don't really its tedious. And they do a better job of that with better combat systems and better trade skill systems. Story only works the first time around - that's something SWTOR needed to learn the hard way.

    Why spend the effort? Just get rid of the tedious part, and get to the fun part.

    And yes, story only works once. That is why i only play SP story campaigns once. That is exactly how it should be designed. One-use-content.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     




    That's all good and all and I agree with your basis. However, how does a game (an MMO in this case) simulate a woodworker a making enough money to purchase the tools and lumber?

     

    How do games simulate 4 years of "boring" classes to get a college degree?

    A lot of what you are speaking about "assumes" a lot of actions going behind the scenes. How does that woodworker get to a point where he knows how to work on a lathe?

    Remember, the games have to "simulate" what happens in the real world with mouse clicks, keystrokes, and such. How do you propose they accomplish this? What you declare as "artificial" in terms of "the real world" may not be in a game.

    Simple: Don't simulate it. If you can't make it fun, don't do it at all. All books and movies skip the boring bits: the training, the traveling, the day to day life... Usually just one sentence on a page or one small transitional scene. A montage at most.

    This ^^^

    Games are entertainment product. If something is not fun to the audience, why put it in at all? The goal is not to build a faithful representation of the world.

    It is not like you need realism to have fun.

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