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Hot Topic: Black People in Fantasy theme games or lack there of...

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  • RusqueRusque Las Vegas, NVPosts: 2,228Member Uncommon
    [mod edit]

    No, I'm pretty sure you're not going to get banned for being "honest and fair". You're going to get banned almost certainly, but not for that.

  • Kevyne-ShandrisKevyne-Shandris Hephzibah, GAPosts: 1,946Member
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by UNATCOII

     


    Originally posted by Ozivois They added a female high elf to the story in the latest Hobbit movie. This is one example that we need to update stories and fantasy lore where appropriate when releasing new vehicles that include these stories and lore. As times change and demographics change, the point of view of the author can become obsolete in its application to the modern consumer. Even historical based vehicles can rewrite history where needed. There is no reason to support old, outdated stereotypes and gender/racial roles in order to keep a product pure since its palatability to all demographics is critically more important to the success and social reputation of a game, movie, etc.
     

     

    While that's true, the diversity also has to be in the development of the games, too.

    Notice something in the video? It has 1 female in the traditional role as an artist, it has an Asian also, but did anyone see Black anything at the convention? Is there any of color "online personalities" promoting gaming, too (and not just as stereotypical like Jon Hall?).

    Diversity also comes into game development if they employ more of color to bring their background into the story, too. Life experiences can only come from those affected by it.

    I realize a lot of men play as women, but I don't really get it.  I guess that is ok as I don't get a lot lol.  I'm just saying I don't understand it because I can't begin to fathom what a woman feels.  I'm sure it's a lot different then what a male feels.  Going even further than that it's hard to understand what a gay person is feeling compared to a homosexual/asexual/etc.  :-).  It's easier for me to role play a headerosexual male as I already know what I feel.  I'm not to worried about other people playing as different sexes though.  I think it's easier to figure out what a person of the same sex, but different race feels and how they would act.

    They just do it -- a popular reason is because if they have to look at the rear of a player, it might as well be a female. They don't role play them per se.

    It's easier for me to roleplay a male toon as a female, as it's socially acceptable. But a male doing the same, he'll face gender bashing or worse (as the culture is to call such people weaklings, as that's how they see females).

    21st century, but we have a long way to go to have not only diversity in our environments racially, games will be gender neutral, especially in a game like WoW (which makes this great effort of, "when I get older I'm growing a beard" mentality -- my main wears none, and will never wear facial hair as it hides his face and I don't think monkey hair is sexy!

  • sacredfoolsacredfool prague, TXPosts: 760Member Uncommon

    Just to point out, Moors were an arabic nation and while some of them had darker skin tones most of them had the same skin tone as the Mediterranean region Europeans they lived next to.


    Originally posted by nethaniah

    Seriously Farmville? Yeah I think it's great. In a World where half our population is dying of hunger the more fortunate half is spending their time harvesting food that doesn't exist.


  • XthosXthos Columbus, OHPosts: 2,628Member

    You will find it I am sure, just as some games have gender lock, but it seems most mmos anymore have skin color sliders that will let you be basically any 'human' shade you want anymore.  I am not saying all, but a lot are like this anymore.

     

    MMOs are all about appealing to every person that can anymore, for the most part, just as TOR was going to have gay marriages and story stuff (not sure if they ever did or not), if not I am sure it will eventually be in more mmos.

     

    Now one thing that I think it is fine to not include shaders in, is if their is lore and it doesn't fit.  I am fine with them breaking lore and doing it anyway, but I can't be upset if they do not want to break with their lore to do it.

     

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by UNATCOII

     


    Originally posted by Ozivois They added a female high elf to the story in the latest Hobbit movie. This is one example that we need to update stories and fantasy lore where appropriate when releasing new vehicles that include these stories and lore. As times change and demographics change, the point of view of the author can become obsolete in its application to the modern consumer. Even historical based vehicles can rewrite history where needed. There is no reason to support old, outdated stereotypes and gender/racial roles in order to keep a product pure since its palatability to all demographics is critically more important to the success and social reputation of a game, movie, etc.
     

     

    While that's true, the diversity also has to be in the development of the games, too.

    Notice something in the video? It has 1 female in the traditional role as an artist, it has an Asian also, but did anyone see Black anything at the convention? Is there any of color "online personalities" promoting gaming, too (and not just as stereotypical like Jon Hall?).

    Diversity also comes into game development if they employ more of color to bring their background into the story, too. Life experiences can only come from those affected by it.

    I realize a lot of men play as women, but I don't really get it.  I guess that is ok as I don't get a lot lol.  I'm just saying I don't understand it because I can't begin to fathom what a woman feels.  I'm sure it's a lot different then what a male feels.  Going even further than that it's hard to understand what a gay person is feeling compared to a homosexual/asexual/etc.  :-).  It's easier for me to role play a headerosexual male as I already know what I feel.  I'm not to worried about other people playing as different sexes though.  I think it's easier to figure out what a person of the same sex, but different race feels and how they would act.

    Because usually mmos have crappy male body design, sometimes they just look retarded.  A lot of guys like me think the armor and stuff looks cooler on females.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I think it's a good idea for developers to try and appeal to a diverse range of people. They seem to be really ham handed about it when they do though. In SWToR, they may as well have put up a big, neon sign that said, "HERE IS THE CONTENT THAT WE PUT IN FOR GAY PEOPLE. THIS MEANS WE SUPPORT DIVERSITY. GIVE US MONEY." I shudder to think what kinds of things would end up in video games if developers really put some effort into appealing to gamers who aren't the average, hetero, white male.

    That said, I think player avatars should be a kind of "anything goes" area. No gender locks, no hair style locks and certainly no skin tone locks.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • someforumguysomeforumguy HomePosts: 3,538Member Uncommon

    I think you have to watch out to start representing fantasy races in a way just to be political correct to the point that you start messing with the lore of that fantasy world. A lot of lore from sci fi and fantasy leaves room for all colours of the rainbow, but in many cases it specifically does not.

    The OP's example about Norns for example. A black Norn would be like having an asian native american. It would not make sense. The humans in GW2 on the other hand can be any colour, because nothing in the GW2 lore says they can't. Also Norns are not humans to begin with, so projecting human racial variation on them is silly to begin with. Same goes for other fantasy/sci fi races that are not human. Also, in many cases it is not about our world. Which often is the main point.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by someforumguy

     

    The OP's example about Norns for example. A black Norn would be like having an asian native american. It would not make sense. The humans in GW2 on the other hand can be any colour, because nothing in the GW2 lore says they can't. Also Norns are not humans to begin with, so projecting human racial variation on them is silly to begin with. Same goes for other fantasy/sci fi races that are not human. Also, in many cases it is not about our world. Which often is the main point.

    Just because Norns obviously are based on Viking folklore doesn't mean that they couldn't be black West African-like people. Who's to say in Tyria the people who looked like Africans didn't develop that kind of culture? Unless the game is actually set in historic Earth the only thing stopping that kind of thing is the audience's  general sense of aesthetic "weirdness".

      Personally I like the semi- original races in GW2 much better. Sylvari FTW (and I can make my Sylvari almost any color I want lol)

     

  • donpopukidonpopuki Dearborn, MIPosts: 591Member
    It makes business sense to include as wide human diversity models in the game.

    As for the Hobbit no including enough non-Europeans you do realize the Hobbit was written by an englishman in the early 20th century and the story took place in a European Midlevel type era. The book is the product of him during that time and place in history.
  • Mtibbs1989Mtibbs1989 Fredericksburg, VAPosts: 2,920Member Uncommon
    This topic is completely stupid and over the top. If you think there aren't enough black characters in these games make one yourself. They give you the option to do so.

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    Somebody, somewhere has better skills as you have, more experience as you have, is smarter than you, has more friends as you do and can stay online longer. Just pray he's not out to get you.
  • ZorgoZorgo Deepintheheartof, TXPosts: 2,226Member

    I played an Erudite in EQ, made my halfling in EQ2 black, and I have one of the few black humans in WoW. And I am quite diverse racially in real life - my ancestors come from all different parts of the British Isles ; )

    Just some other things I've noticed on this topic:

    The Erudites in EQ are all black, and a pretty popular race.

    For some odd reason, they turned the Erudites into things that look like Aliens from outer space in EQ2.

    Vanguard has 3 different human races, one asian, one white, one black. I always felt sorry for the Native Americans.

    I've had several guild mates who were latino - they seem to have the least choices of all.

    Most games I know have the option to make your character black, which then puts the racism into the hands of the players - is it that black players aren't making black characters? Is it that black players are few and far between? Or is it that white players rarely desire to play black characters? 

     

  • TheMaahesTheMaahes Marlborough, MAPosts: 185Member

    This isn't a "Hot Topic", you're just trying to make it one.

     

    EDIT1: Spelling

    EDIT2: They are in Warhammer, don't twist facts to suit your needs.

  • Solar_ProphetSolar_Prophet Columbus, OHPosts: 875Member Uncommon

    If a person / group based on a particular race or ethnicity doesn't fit with the fantasy world being created, then the creator should be under no obligation to include them. Personally I find it far more offensive to shoehorn them into an inappropriate setting for the sake of political correctness (to 'placate the masses', as it were) than to exclude them because they simply don't 'work' with the setting.

    As for people complaining about a black person in Lake Town, whining that Tolkien 'never mentioned Haradrim traders, blah blah blah', I really don't care. Tolkien fans throw a screaming fit if the hue of a character's pants is off by two shades. They're the most anal retentive fanbase in existence, and quite honestly their antics are often so cartoonish, their interpretation of the lore so literal, that I can't take them with any sort of seriousness.

    AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!

  • ArskaaaArskaaa KauhajokiPosts: 842Member Uncommon

    only black char i have is Ratonka or was it Ratonga:P 

     

    u guys noticed how many black evil npc there is in WoW? 

    Its like;

    u are black skin, u are evil.

    u are white skin, u are hero.

  • PoliticaldadPoliticaldad Port Angeles, WAPosts: 72Member Uncommon

    isn't that what games like GTA and the "Knockout Game" are for ? A place for them to congregate and hone their skills? :)

    j/k ... this is a waste of a thread and a discussion.

    a place for the 'we are repressed' ... 'we deserve more, with no effort' folks.

    You should call the ACLU and have them shut down games that do not have the proper ratios to satisfy the 'hurt and downtroden'

    Come to the "dark"side we have cupcakes and watermelon

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

  • JemcrystalJemcrystal Champaign, ILPosts: 1,549Member Uncommon

    Humans are boring.  I want dark elves and not dark humans.  But anyway people are not just black skinned and white skinned.  There is a wide range of colors between and some are even red.  Where's our token Native American, hmmm?  I'm telln you, black skinned people are NOT the minority.  But I DO see a lot of different skin colors in games then again I'm playing Skyrim type games (mmo or otherwise).  

     

    Lot of games come from the orient and they forget dark skin exists, lol.

  • jdizzle2k13jdizzle2k13 Exmore, VAPosts: 251Member Uncommon

    I think the developers should put whatever they feel is appropriate for their game into their game.

    With that being said, I should hope that a game hoping for more commercial success allows for more diverse physical features to choose from in character creation (not just in skin tone but bone structure, lip/eye size, body type, etc.) than most games offer.

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  • jdizzle2k13jdizzle2k13 Exmore, VAPosts: 251Member Uncommon
    It would be interesting to see more black/Hispanic/Asian NPCs but I can't fault devs for not including them in a large amount.  I think GW2 did a good job with character diversity.

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  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAPosts: 4,172Member Uncommon

    I thought WoW humans could be dark skinned, maybe not "african", but something other than Anglo. Maybe I'm remembering wrong.

    EQ Erudites could be nothing other than dark skinned. The animal-based races (Vah Shir, Froglok) could be whatever you imagined them to be with enough color options. Wood Elves and Drakkin are far from Anglo-white.

    Seems like CoH and Champions Online both featured other-than-Anglo colors.

    FFXIV does, I know for sure.

    Vindictus does.

    They aren't totally absent, just maybe not as prevalent as they should be. Maybe a lot of that has to do with the fact that most High Fantasy-based lore is based on very European or Asian mythology. I can't think of any game that's based on African or Arabian mythology... but then again, I'm not very familiar with those cultures in the first place.

  • SirPKsAlotSirPKsAlot bagong silangPosts: 224Member
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    I disagree, every MMO I have played I have made a black human with an afro too I might add. Not sure what MMO's you are referring to.

     

    LOL me too, in nearly every MMO I've played I've made a black dude with a fro :D

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    Currently playing: Eldevin Online as a Deadly Assassin

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,262Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by SirPKsAlot
    Originally posted by Betaguy
    I disagree, every MMO I have played I have made a black human with an afro too I might add. Not sure what MMO's you are referring to.

     

    LOL me too, in nearly every MMO I've played I've made a black dude with a fro :D

    9/10 times there are black character models, 8/10 times black hairstyles. As far as npcs, yeah sure seems there should be more.

  • LatronusLatronus Lexington Park, MDPosts: 692Member
    Originally posted by Panzerbase
    Their are many examples throughout gaming, you simply have chosen not to see them. So yes please keep beating the racist drum, Jesse would be proud. 

    Exactly!  I mainly play SOE games and there are options in all of them that I have played to make a black human.  I mean how many black Vikings were there?  You can sure make a character in EQ2 that looks like one.

    I guess I just missed all the blacks in Norse and Celtic mythology along with the Greeks and Roman's as well not to mention any Asian mythology out there because the fantasy books referred to got there inspiration from existing mythology.  I guess the writers of old should have foreseen how hate mongering sacks like Jesse and Al would create controversy where none exists so they stay 1) Rich and 2) relevant in the black community just because ignorant white folks are scared to be falsely called racists here in America.

    I'm actually surprised liberals haven't freaked out because the Dark Elves are always EVIL, murderous, backstabbing, thieving scum of whatever world they are in.  I would think that would be more racist than not having black humans because one could draw the conclusion that the Drow/Dark Elf is a symbol for blacks in the world today and therefore almost all of them are evil, not to be trusted, and should be killed on sight.

    Let's have discussions about the quality or lack there of in our games today and leave the real world issues where they belong, in the REAL world.  I for one play games to get away from the real world, if only for a bit.

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  • kragekrage Miami, FLPosts: 419Member

    Sadly the most media leads are male and white for anything that considers North America in its target demograph because it appeals to most people and has been a standard.

    That and I am going to come right out and say that a large part of America is still racist as heck, I had a bit of a culture shock going from a large diverse city into the US Army to mingle with others from less "diverse" places. Since I was tan alot of the more ignorant American soldiers assumed I was Mexican or Puerto Rican by default depending on which coast was closer to them lol (I am not Hispanic at all, I am Irish + Italian + Iranian)

    Read this article that has information based on a study about The virtual census: representations of gender, race and age in video games.

    "“Male characters are vastly more likely to appear than female characters,” they report, noting that 85.2 percent of characters in their survey are male. If you consider only “primary” characters — that is, those whose actions are controlled by the player — the percentage of males rises to nearly 90 percent.

    Whites make up 80 percent of game characters, with blacks representing just under 11 percent and Hispanics just under 3 percent. Whites make up nearly 85 percent of “primary” characters.

    ...“With regard to race, the findings here nearly mirror Harwood and Anderson’s television data, which found 82.9 percent white, 2.6 percent Latino, 11.4 percent black and 2.6 percent Asian characters.”" Original Source

     

    Aside from all that at least some MMOs let you make brown, and black characters and they try to create face types that are for other than white races...still imagine the main Human characters in an MMO being other than white lol. 

    1. Warcraft: Varian Wrynn
    2. Warhammer: Sigmar
    3. Rift: Orphiel Farwind (light skin and hair), Cyril Kalmar (Light skin and dark hair)
    4. GW2: Logan Thackery
    5. Lotro: Human wise there are nothing but good white leads pretty much, but Tolkien was in a racist time and was pretty racist by making all the evil races other than white lol.  
    6. Age of Conan: Conan white Austrian male with a fantastic tan.
    7. ...I am sure there are many more examples of non-Asian MMOs that keep up the White Male Lead (WML) standard.
    8. Props to Warhammer 40k for making the Emperor of Mankind pretty much Turkish, formerly Native American.
     

    So yeah there is a lack of Blacks, Hispanics, Asian or those of Southwest Asian (Middle East) descent as far as leads or main characters go. Sure there are sidekicks, background characters, and random characters that are added in for the sake of diversity but the majority of media has white and male as the center of attention...and I can understand why from a "mass" appeal perspective.

    Then again the "other" non-white races are sorta mirrored in other races for most fantasy lol...most of which are the "beastial" races...which after writing it makes it seem horrible lol. In the end, I myself have no problem playing white males, females and don't really care about the race/gender too much from a main character as long as they are quality characters. As for my customized characters in MMOs I usually have a mix of skin colors depending on the classes, lore, and overall appeal when combined. 

    For funsies, since we opened up the race can of worms, lets also throw in the fact that a very well known character/figure known as Jesus has even been altered to a white male with straight hair over time when he was most likely closer in resemblance to the people of the region with curlier hair and olive skin....just sayin thats the world we live in lol.

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  • HokieHokie Vancouver Wa.Posts: 1,063Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOExposed

    This isnt to offend anybody. This is simply a hot topic discussion, that I believe is worth talking about rather than ignoring this issue as if it doesnt exist.

     

    That leads me to the other argument, for IP like Warhammer, which people argue that its based off of Medieval Germany, which goes back to the above explanation that Black People are known to have been in Germany as well during those time periods.

    So the idea that Black People shouldnt be in Fantasy genre because of those misinformed ideals, is simply wrong.

     

    But despite the above historical references, We still see more modern day MMOs of "Fantasy Theme" being made without the option, or limited option in making Black People as a playable option for humans and the likes.

     

     

    Whats your opinion on this? This is a discussion forum on games after all.

     

    Simply put you are stretching history quit a bit. And maybe out right twisting the facts to suit your argument.

    Im sure there were traders and people from Africa, India, Persia and Arabia and maybe even the Far East who lived in Germany per your Warhammer example (or any other European country for that matter) during the Middle Ages and the Renaissance but they were probably so few in numbers that they were less than 1% of the population.

    So its not some racial prejudice that keeps them from showing up in what is considered Middle Ages and more specifically the Arthurian Age which is what most of these fantasy MMO's and games are based on. Its just simple fact that its mostly based of white Northern Europe psudeo-history.

    And going back to your example of Warhammer/Germany a quick Google search shows that the top three German cities with considerable Afro-German (black) populations, in this our modern day, at just 3% of the population of Hamburg, 2% the population of Berlin, and 2% the population Frankfurt.

     

    And to further extrapolate on your twisted logic the total in this day and age of the black ethnicity of lets say...England is just 3.5%, I could go on, but I think evey one should get the point.

    There just wasnt that many people of non-white decent in the Europe that these games are based on. There is no anti-black conspiracy, or anti-Persian, or what not. The truth is even to this day there isnt a very large black presence in Europe and was even less so 500, 1000, 1500, and 2000 years ago. And so of course would not show up in the main historical legends (whether fantasy or fact) for these countries, and thus into the games they are based on.

     

    Now all that being said, do I think because of the demographic facts that there shouldnt be anyone of African, Persian, Asian, Indian decent in modern games set in European psudeo-history / Arthurian legend? No of course not. All ethnicities should be represented.

    And I agree they should do a better job. And some have. Take a look at ESO's character creator video, it has some of the best African and Middle Eastern looking avatars in any game so far (that Ive seen).

     

    But please dont try to twist the facts into some kind of historical conspiracy.

     

     

    "I understand that if I hear any more words come pouring out of your **** mouth, Ill have to eat every fucking chicken in this room."

  • TerranahTerranah Stockton, CAPosts: 3,605Member

    Why would blacks figure predominantly as the main characters though.  There is a reason they are called 'minorities'.  If they were the predominant race, it would make sense that main characters would be black, but they're not.

     

    Blacks are also probably not the predominant creators, producers, distributors or financiers within the gaming industry.  Most that I am thinking of off the top of my head are white and some are Asian.  So again, it's not surprising Blacks are under represented.

     

    People make a big deal if a white guy puts on make up to look black, even if it's for drama class.  Seems like a white guy playing a black character could also be racist if you want to inject that kind of irrational sensitivity into the discussion.

     

    Personally, I'm multiracial.  I see both sides.  Whites make games with white protagonists.  Asians make games with Asian protagonists.  Maybe Blacks should start making games with Black protagonists and stop expecting everyone else to do it for them. 

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