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Originally posted by Dauzqul The definition of MMO has completely changed. MMOs used to be MASSIVE. There is nothing "massive" about instanced 5v5 PvP etc. It's like playing a game like Quake or Unreal Tournament, where you can chat with people while you search for CTF or TDM on the server browser. These new "MMOs" are nothing more than a glorified 3D version of the archaic server browser. However, instead of clicking on a text link via Unreal Tournament to connect, you virtually walk to a glowing door and click on it (SWTOR etc).
I agree,MOST of the gaming terminology is loosely bantered around.A lot of the game is not instanced but the challenging meaningful parts are ALL instances,makes that part of the game,no more than a CO-op.
I still play UT99 and using that game as an example,it is really sad that i interact with usually around 4-6 players in a game,as many as what people do in an instance in a MMO such as this.
I would also say that i chat with people MORE in UT99 than i do in MMO's.it really is a sad indication of the MMO genre.
Never forget 3 mile Island and never trust a government official or company spokesman.
Originally posted by DamonVile LoL is getting called an mmo, it doesn't even have a world. The term mmo doesn't imply a world at all. Massively multiplayer online means built for lots of people playing online doesn't it ? Everything else is really what the reader applies to it. If you're going to start calling the worlds massive.... are they ? I can run across the world of most games in about 20 minutes. I can still see my house after 20 minutes of running in real life.....wouldn't really consider that a massive distance. What they put at the end of mmo I think should say more about the game type than mmo does. ARPG, RPG, FPS, TPS ( third ) etc all give a better indication of what the game is. Maybe we just need a better name like IRPG instanced role playing game.
Well you won't see your house unless it is open fields,we EXPECT assets in a game.Also if you run for 20 minutes in every direction that is more like 9 square miles,that would be considered quite massive.Ever have a Paintball game with 20 players,imagine playing over 9 Sq miles,it would get real boring because of the size.
MOST large sports games ,example Football/Baseball play in a field of far less proportions.Also when saying run across a game world,those zones are linked for faster access,if you actually had to run across them all,it would take you more than an hour.It took me exactly 20 minutes to run the fastest route between two cities in FXIV,that is not even close to running across the entire game.
MMO is not simply built for lots of players online,it means in the SAME place at the SAME time.You wouldn't say a movie theater is built for massive amounts of people IF you go to every theater in the owners stable,it eludes to that ONE theater.Same as a football stadium,if it holds a massive audience of 100k,that means in that SAME stadium,where everyone can basically see and interact with each other without leaving the stadium for another venue or place.
Originally posted by djazzy Originally posted by Sajman01 It's no less an MMO than GW2.
GW2 is not a lobby game.
Lobby Implies no Avatars representing your character.So I think its no less an MMO than GW2.As stated earlier MMO stands for Massively Multiplayer Online correct?Neverwinter is all of that.Its a silly argument anyway.If you enjoy it why is it even a question?If you don't why do you care?
Originally posted by Wizardry Originally posted by DamonVile LoL is getting called an mmo, it doesn't even have a world. The term mmo doesn't imply a world at all. Massively multiplayer online means built for lots of people playing online doesn't it ? Everything else is really what the reader applies to it. If you're going to start calling the worlds massive.... are they ? I can run across the world of most games in about 20 minutes. I can still see my house after 20 minutes of running in real life.....wouldn't really consider that a massive distance. What they put at the end of mmo I think should say more about the game type than mmo does. ARPG, RPG, FPS, TPS ( third ) etc all give a better indication of what the game is. Maybe we just need a better name like IRPG instanced role playing game.
20 minutes, an hour... 10 hours... you've missed the point. Massive worlds are based on one persons opinion. How long would it take you to run around the earth ? These game worlds are tinny compaired to it so....why are we calling them massive virtual worlds then ?
MMOs have never been built like that. Most have multiple servers which forces them apart All of them crash if too many people go to the same place at the same time. Even eve only works because people spread out and don't all interact with each other in the same place.
Originally posted by Vasel The only thing resembling a MMO is the fact you have some levels and there are quests. ITs a linear theme park designed to empty your pockets.
And that's different from any other mmo out there how? Of course there are exceptions but think about it. If you play any mmo that launches (not f2p) you are looking at around $250 for the first year. $180 every year after that with it bumping up to $210/$220 on expansion years. 200 bones a year for something that doesn't exist in reality except by the whim of a development team/corporation keeping the lights on? This of course doesn't count if you go in for the cash shops that exist in subscription mmos whereby you get to pay a corporation for virtual items that they just click a button to create instantaneously. At least when you bought gold there were teams of chinese farmers working the virtual fields to get that money to sell you, these corporations charge you double the "black" market and they don't even have real labor being expended in the selling of it to you. Hell with wonderful companies like Blizzard out there you get cash shops in single player games too. Yay!
Personally I play Neverwinter whenever I have an itch to scratch, provides me a couple of hours of entertainment and then I am good for a week or three lol. Don't remember ever paying anything to play it.... surely hasn't emptied my pockets, but thats just my experience
Originally posted by SBFord The Tourist is back and ready to roll in 2014. In this latest column, we visit Neverwinter and offer a few thoughts about its status as an MMO. Read on before heading to the comments to chat. I sent out a tweet recently asking if Neverwinter's deserved to be included in this year's Game of the Year talks. The crux of the matter is simply this, with so few options, could be be ascribing more praise to the game than it perhaps deserves? Few players will deny that Neverwinter had an certain allure surrounding its launch. More than that, the game's first early experiences teeter on the edge of wonderousness.
Read more of Chris Coke's The Tourist: Is Neverwinter Really an MMO?
As to whether its an MMO? Sure seems feels and looks like an mmo to me. What persistence is there in ANY mmo out there? How many times have you killed boss mob alpha of any raid in any mmo out there? Show me the MMO out there with the boss mobs that once killed never ever spawn again. How many times have you drudged through the same dungeon, doing the exact same dance, using this ability at this time (everytime) stand here to avoid this attack (everytime) etc etc etc. And you mention persistence as if that was something that actually mattered as to whether a game were an MMO or not? If so then the only two MMOs ever were SWG and Eve. As to isolated instances: 1) THANK GOD. 2) PEOPLE SUCK. And finally: 3) PEOPLE SUCK.
Seeing other people in town makes a helluva lot more sense than walking into some big baddies lair to see 20 people on their way out 40 people standing around dueling and mooning each other waiting for the big baddie to spawn again. Or being given that early quest about the village in danger from a plague of wild pigs, spiders, sand fleas, whatever that will be cured by your killing 4 of them. Which, of course, as you run out to face the vile threat you slam into the back of another player as you watch some 30+ people milling about playing whack a mole waiting for this "plague" to eventually materialize. Please refer to my opinion on persistence and my list of pros for isolated instance if you wonder why I have a problem with the mentioned scenario. Yes Neverwinter is an MMO as much as anything else out there. Hell you guys cover Diablo 3 here on MMORPG.com so I do appreciate your asking for clarification as there seems to be some confusion from people trying to make a simple thing far more complicated than it is.
Neverwinter is garbage. A major let down. Yet another insult to D&D - which is seemingly beyond hope due to corporate ownership/handling and the impossibility of anybody doing it up right without hassles and costs.
Mediocre game, weak character development, weak just about everything. Foundry does rock - but it's not enough to make the game worth playing.
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Originally posted by Sajman01 It's no less an MMO than GW2.
thats not saying much, at that
Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...
Originally posted by IDontThinkSoNo People spamming gold farming in chat. Forced group content. Broken English players. Nerd raging guilds that require VoIP. Yep, MMO.
Broken english players ? nice how about you try play a game where its not your mother tongue been spoken ,at least they make an effort to speak .. sounds like you are the leader of one of these nerd raging guilds and one of those who go after the typos people make in chat too .. but that a side yeah it has the annoying mmo aspects like gold spammers and forced group content and the character development is so limited and open world more like open dungeon .
One of the main things that makes an MMO for me is if I can stumble across another player in place I'd least expect. Its actually a surprise. It requires a vast ,seemingly uncompartmentalized world to explore. It can't happen in a hub where every square inch is part of a greased up quest chain and invisible walls abound.Even the "secret" places are only there to satisfy the urge to collect. A path put in for the soul purpose of a new shiny for the umpteenth check list. SWTOR's datacron hunts are a good example of this.
These worlds are very rarely made these days. Mortal Online's open. Almost too open. Put some more wildlife critters in there guys. It's definitely come a long long way since beta/launch and still has plenty to go. It has a good feeling of threat and exploration. I spend hours just running about. Just wish the land wasn't just a complete perfect circle. Why did they change it I wonder? Vanguard great for exploration..
There are a few more still around and I am hopeful these indie projects that are clawing about lately will scratch those itches because the bigger beasts can't even seem to grow nails anymore. Oh they roar a lot . Sometimes for years. Then come launch day all we get is a weak , strangled purr. WTF? kittens. Where's the lion they "promised" me?
The others MMOS have their place. Really they do. I like SWTOR , DCUO and even WOW is played from time to time among others.
Just really looking for an actual world that I can finally call home..because it feels like one. Not because its the nicest looking or only house left on the block.
This is the weakest, most irrelevant timewaster of a conversation I ever see crop up.
I've seen it so many times, and every time it ends with everyone reiterating their own opinion about the whole matter. Occasionally they also cross their arms and huff.
This is a stupid conversation. The game has many MMORPG-like elements in it. It's closer to an MMO than it is to Battlefield or Star Conflict or Call of Duty or DotA.
Stop picking this nit.
Well to be honest WoW have become also very linear theme park designed and still people call that game mmo"rpg" and well to be total honest even in neverwinter is a free to play game with ingame shop which btw WoW have also since few weeks back you dont have buy anything from that shop if you dont want to.
Also neverwinter still have same rule as single version when come to char attribute when lvl up and still base on AD&D core rule which not many mmo"rpg" out there and i think that is one of best thing about just neverwinter that still have old school thing that you can set point on char which today not many mmo"rpg" have.
So do i think neverwinter is really a mmo yes if i look at WoW, SWTOR, LOTRO, Vanguard, GW2 just name few mmo the are all have linear theme park designed for freedom off mmo have been take away from many of them so the design team can control you game play and it make easy for them to update game with patch for if you linear a game you as design dont have put so much work when do patcher to the game.
Beside neverwinter have alot of more free content patch then WoW only thing i have buy was the new expansion pack which was cheap and last month the gave nenverwinter a class for free in patch and what do blizzard after years of community nag on forum blizzard is finally update the classic race but do you get that those for free?
No the are add them to next expansion WoD so if want the new update char model you have buy WoW expansion so if people what talk about neverwinter cost extra money will at lest the dont do as blizzard to with there char model update.
Technically no. It is not a MMO. It lacks the online world.
But practically maybe as game worlds have shrunk and moved to instanced content it is not hugely different.
I think of NWN as a MMO lite. Almost a MMO but lacking the persistent world. From a practical sense it fulfills most of the activities of a modern MMO.
A better question is NWN a AAA game? My thought is its borderline but to cheap and low in quality. Which is why it is more of a lobby game then a game with a persistent world.
Originally posted by kaiser3282 Originally posted by DamonVile LoL is getting called an mmo, it doesn't even have a world. The term mmo doesn't imply a world at all. Massively multiplayer online means built for lots of people playing online doesn't it ? Everything else is really what the reader applies to it. If you're going to start calling the worlds massive.... are they ? I can run across the world of most games in about 20 minutes. I can still see my house after 20 minutes of running in real life.....wouldn't really consider that a massive distance. What they put at the end of mmo I think should say more about the game type than mmo does. ARPG, RPG, FPS, TPS ( third ) etc all give a better indication of what the game is. Maybe we just need a better name like IRPG instanced role playing game.
Actually no. It does imply a world. The term MMO was used to define a persistent online world in which a large number of players can impact / interact with each other. That is all. It does not imply anything whatsoever about HOW that impact takes place, and ignores any foolish themepark vs sandbox arguments, it is simply what was stated. The rest of it, such as RPG, is as you stated determined by other factors.
Whether or not NWO is an MMO or not... Well consider that GW1 was not considered an MMO, even by it's creators. Why? Because much like NWO, sure it had hubs where you could interact with other players, but the actual playable content (aka "the world") took the form of isolated instances in which you had no contact with players other than your own party. Not quite sure if it's as isolated in NWO, but if so, I would say it is not an MMO either.
NWO is not isolated as GW1 is. You have the various open world zones that you adventure in alongside other players, heck you've got to compete at times to kill mobs, loot various resource nodes and ofc quest items that are static spawns.
Your only isolated when you take on the various dungeons/missions, although tbh it works the exact same way as most of the other MMO's, the dungeon instance belongs to your grp, when playing WoW another grp can not enter your own dungeon instance while your grp is actively inside.
Seems everyone has a differing opinion on what an MMO is, and great job OP on stirring up an old argument that has bounced around these forums since it's inception.
when you mean MMO in the original sense of the world,....
nowadays you need to say "open world" instead.
in order to have any hope people know what you are talking about.
The End---------------------------i don't expect to like Darkfall, altho i may like it MORE than other MMOs. i know it is gonna have a very frustrating level of grind to it, even if its significantly less than most. waiting for a pure FAST action virtual world. dice rolling & character levels (even "skills") IN COMBAT should have never carried over from pencil & paper to a computer that can reasonably model 3D spaces and objects
While it is a Linear Themepark, it isn't a big budget all-encompassing game. Nor was it meant to be, Jack Emeritt himself even stated as much during development. What Neverwinter does it does well and Microtransactions are not needed to play the game but they will help and further fund the team.
Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!
Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!
Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!
Originally posted by Alminie it's not even a DnD game only thing that resembles a DnD game is the name, it's more like a lobby where you can play with multiple ppl in a rpg with a DnD name, and basic theme park experience. :-p
So in other words it's just like sitting around a kitchen table playing with a group of friends running a campaign. In other words it is EXACTLY like a D&D game.
I am not sure the conversation matters. But just to participate lol, if Battlefield or Call of Duty essentially created graphical lobby's that hold hundreds before matches would it then become a MMOFPS?
I define a game a MMORPG.
Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal I define a game a MMORPG. A roleplaying game. Persistant world
Pretty much this. I would add something like "no hard limit on the number of concurrent players".
Over the years, people seem to think that whatever they personally enjoy in a game suddenly defines it as an MMO. "Oh, i like PvP, therefore any game without PvP is not a really MMORPG!" "Oh, i like sandbox/themepark, any game that is less sandbox/themepark is not really a MMORPG!", "Oh i like harsh death penalty... and i like instances... and i don't like instances.. and i like only having one shared world... and i like having copies of the world with mulitple servers...and i like it to be in space... and it must be fantasy world set..." All these things define what a MMORPG is like or how it's made or what the rules are. It doesn't define what a MMORPG is.
You can say that all these games - WoW, Neverwinter, SWTOR, GW2, etc. - you can say that "they're crappy MMORPGs", but that doesn't make them any less MMORPGs. If i go outside with my video camera and film the empty parking lot for 2 hours, I'll have made a movie. It might be the world's worst movie, but doesn't change the fact that it's a movie. People really need to stop confusing the definition of something with its quality.
"Id rather work on something with great potential than on fulfilling a promise of mediocrity."
- Raph Koster
Tried: AO,EQ,EQ2,DAoC,SWG,AA,SB,HZ,CoX,PS,GA,TR,IV,GnH,EVE, PP,DnL,WAR,MxO,SWG,FE,VG,AoC,DDO,LoTRO,Rift,TOR,Aion,Tera,TSW,GW2,DCUO,CO,STOFavourites: AO,SWG,EVE,TR,LoTRO,TSW,EQ2, FirefallCurrently Playing: EQ2, BDO
MMORPG's have a history that have set a precedent. Thanks to that history, we have certain expectations that must be met. One being the large number of players who can access and play the game together at the same time and in the same space. Another is the game world itself. We have been trained from early on to expect large explorable worlds with few if any barriers between players (such as phasing and instancing). We have come to accept adventuring and questing as the primary paths for progression. We demand side activities that are not combat related, such as crafting, costumes, puzzle jumping and housing.
When I come across an MMO that lacks many or even just a few of such features, I find myself dismissing it as a real MMO and certainly one I'd rather not play.
No persistent world, so no it is not a MMO. Just like Diablo III is not a MMO. Does not mean that MMORPG should not cover them.