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No raiding?

DesetesDesetes brampton, ONPosts: 88Member
I don't see this game lasting more than a few months, much like every other MMO that comes out these days. PVP isn't end-game content, if people wanted to PVP they'd play BF4, LoL, Chivalry, etc. No one is going to pay $15 a month to PVP when so many free games exist. The reason why WoW has lasted is because of the hardcore raiding endgame.
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Comments

  • flguy147flguy147 orlando, FLPosts: 374Member
    Adventure Zones is ESO's form of raiding.  I am more of a PVE player but i totally disagree that PVP cant be endgame.  Some people dont like FPS type games at all so i am not sure why you compared BF to a MMO.  2 completely different things.  And i throw away more money than 15 bucks a month so i could care less about a lowsy 15 bucks a month.
  • greenreengreenreen Punchoo, AKPosts: 2,101Member Uncommon

    In this video she said there will be 16 dungeons to start with and 6 master dungeons. Groups ranged from 4 to 24 players for adventure zones.

     

    I think I'll be playing it for end-game PVP, not much of a dungeon runner any longer.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Desetes
    I don't see this game lasting more than a few months, much like every other MMO that comes out these days. PVP isn't end-game content, if people wanted to PVP they'd play BF4, LoL, Chivalry, etc. No one is going to pay $15 a month to PVP when so many free games exist. The reason why WoW has lasted is because of the hardcore raiding endgame.

    Few things.

    1) Not all PvPers enjoy the same games.

    2) MMO is a form of PvP that has already proven successful (when done right). Ultima, Lineage, DAoC, Guild Wars, GW2, Eve; to name a few.

    3) Raiding, in the traditional sense, has never been a part of Elder Scrolls. However, while they didn't have PvP (being single-player games), it does fit within the vibe of elder scrolls. Not unlike the faction-based conflict seen in Skyrim.

    4) The game will have upto 24-man dungeons. Whether or not you consider that 'raiding', though, is upto you.

    I've said this multiple times, but I'll say it again. This game plays like an Elder Scrolls game, that is an MMO. If you're looking for an Elder Scrolls version of an MMO, this game is doing that about as best as it possibly can (from what I've seen so far). if you're looking for something else, then you probably won't like it. However, there's probably no reason to be on these threads if that's the case, since this game is primarily for elder scroll fans.

  • sethman75sethman75 the gongPosts: 212Member Uncommon
    I'm glad their is no raiding to be honest.

    The quicker we get away from running the same raids over and over until your eyes bleed, the quicker devs can come up with something that can evolve MMO's into something that people actually enjoy playing.

    I think Timeless isle like in WoW with an ever changing approach to loot is the most fun you can have. There is very high motivation to keep logging if you have a chance each day of finding a uber rare item that makes you the envy of everybody.

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon

    There isn't a gear chase type of raiding in ESO. But there will be large group content. The adventure zones will be for 2 to 12 from the latest info. An open zone with different areas that have mobs for different groups to go after for Veteran points. The same Veteran points that can be earned from Master dungeons, PvP and the solo/small group 50+ and 50++ content.

     

    All play styles will be able to earn end game gear by playing the way they want and earning Veteran points needed to buy end game gear. Crafting is said to be able take any gear and alter it to change the stats based on your crafting level.

     

    I am actually looking forward to a game that let's everyone earn gear, not just the raid or die group. Hopefully the Adventure zones will be updated to be a large number of large group content for those that don't want to PvP. But PvP will be a big end game activity for both the economy with guild keeps selling crafted items and meaningful PvP with rewards and being emperor.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,198Member
    Originally posted by Desetes
    I don't see this game lasting more than a few months, much like every other MMO that comes out these days. PVP isn't end-game content, if people wanted to PVP they'd play BF4, LoL, Chivalry,

    None of those games offer persistent massive scale territory control combat.

    PvP is absolutely end game. Far more cost effective and interesting end game, generally, if designed well.

    EQ/WoW style DKP raiding needs to die a painful death so we can get back to good non instanced non tierred raiding.

  • AkulasAkulas GoldcoastPosts: 1,615Member Uncommon
    good, I don't want raiding

    This isn't a signature, you just think it is.

  • IncomparableIncomparable KuwaitPosts: 872Member
    Originally posted by Desetes
    I don't see this game lasting more than a few months, much like every other MMO that comes out these days. PVP isn't end-game content, if people wanted to PVP they'd play BF4, LoL, Chivalry, etc. No one is going to pay $15 a month to PVP when so many free games exist. The reason why WoW has lasted is because of the hardcore raiding endgame.

    Then MMOs should not make the journey so long, as in make development cost and time for something thats not as enjoyable for the target market, and focus more on end game such as raids, and pvp.

    The fact that they do not do that, is becuase the raid group is not as large of a demographic... or... just bad development.

    Personally, when combat becomes repeititve, and story can't be that much greater... I would rather raid than do class quests... however, repeating raids to me is like repeating class quests... I do not enjoy that... maybe repeating a raid 3 times tops... so if a game were more raid focused just like other games in sand box ones are more pvp... then I think it would do well. Of course it still needs other things to compliment such a game.

    “Write bad things that are done to you in sand, but write the good things that happen to you on a piece of marble”

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,197Member Uncommon
    See I think instanced scripted progression raiding has been the single biggest design plague on the mmo genre period. I believe it's over credited for the success of some games, including WoW. It adversely affects what could otherwise be good pve progression, good pvp progression, and indepth crafting.
  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by flguy147
    Adventure Zones is ESO's form of raiding.  I am more of a PVE player but i totally disagree that PVP cant be endgame.  Some people dont like FPS type games at all so i am not sure why you compared BF to a MMO.  2 completely different things.  And i throw away more money than 15 bucks a month so i could care less about a lowsy 15 bucks a month.

     

    Adventure zones are progressive in 3 layers... and they combine raids with stories.. they are not inside only but mostly outside... and there are 3 times 150 of them... 150 for every faction,,

    This will work well in combination with the dungeons and their gear system, gear will have random stats, and every tier of progression will have better stats... even better, you could allways find a better item

     

    People are so underinformed about this game, its just not funny anymore, they base their opinion up on false assumptions and worse..

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • killahhkillahh calgary, ABPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus

    Originally posted by flguy147
    Adventure Zones is ESO's form of raiding.  I am more of a PVE player but i totally disagree that PVP cant be endgame.  Some people dont like FPS type games at all so i am not sure why you compared BF to a MMO.  2 completely different things.  And i throw away more money than 15 bucks a month so i could care less about a lowsy 15 bucks a month.

     

    Adventure zones are progressive in 3 layers... and they combine raids with stories.. they are not inside only but mostly outside... and there are 3 times 150 of them... 150 for every faction,,

    This will work well in combination with the dungeons and their gear system, gear will have random stats, and every tier of progression will have better stats... even better, you could allways find a better item

     

    People are so underinformed about this game, its just not funny anymore, they base their opinion up on false assumptions and worse..

     

    I've been saying the same for weeks, unerinformed experts posting misinformation,

    Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  • immodiumimmodium ManchesterPosts: 1,576Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    See I think instanced scripted progression raiding has been the single biggest design plague on the mmo genre period. I believe it's over credited for the success of some games, including WoW. It adversely affects what could otherwise be good pve progression, good pvp progression, and indepth crafting.

    This

    More open world group content please. I don't mind instancing if it fools me into thinking I'm not in one. :)

    image
  • RampajiRampaji copenhagnePosts: 50Member

    Many people seems whine and even like to whine. Its up to you personally to make a game experience funny. You can even play MONOPOLY many times and its still fun when you play, If you are having fun with does you play with. :)

    Pvp endgame i dont care that much about pvp. But if people are having fun, then have fun with. :)

    Im going to play with many real life friends, explore the game and all the content it brings up. And maybe we going to join a raid guild going to explore the "raids areas and have fun with that".

     

    Help Yourself to get a good solid fun and laughs playing. then you might even get invited to join a guild or be on others friendlist ;)

     

    Happy Hakuna

     

    Be the change you want to see in the world.

    - Mahatma Gandhi

  • MoodsorMoodsor HerningPosts: 650Member Uncommon
    Pvp can't be endgame? what a silly thing to say, it seems to work fine in several mmo's.

    image
  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,453Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Desetes
    I don't see this game lasting more than a few months, much like every other MMO that comes out these days. PVP isn't end-game content, if people wanted to PVP they'd play BF4, LoL, Chivalry, etc. No one is going to pay $15 a month to PVP when so many free games exist. The reason why WoW has lasted is because of the hardcore raiding endgame.

    I really would love to know how some people make such statements and where they get their info.

    PvP is a LOT more end game content (to me) than raiding. I would gladly pay my sub fee to pvp.

    as far as "when so many free games exist" are you saying that the content and subject matter have no bearing on a person's decision to play a game and the primary deciding factor is a paltry bit of money?

  • KyleranKyleran Tampa, FLPosts: 19,987Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Moodsor
    Pvp can't be endgame? what a silly thing to say, it seems to work fine in several mmo's.

    Some folks cut their teeth on the wrong sort of MMORPG's, and they just don't appreciate what these titles can or should be. Sort of stunted their development. image

    In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
    "I don't have one life, I have many lives" - Grunty
    Still currently "subscribed" to EVE, and only EVE!!!
    "This is the most intelligent, well qualified and articulate response to a post I have ever seen on these forums. It's a shame most people here won't have the attention span to read past the second line." - Anon

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by flguy147
    Adventure Zones is ESO's form of raiding.  I am more of a PVE player but i totally disagree that PVP cant be endgame.  Some people dont like FPS type games at all so i am not sure why you compared BF to a MMO.  2 completely different things.  And i throw away more money than 15 bucks a month so i could care less about a lowsy 15 bucks a month.

     

    Adventure zones are progressive in 3 layers... and they combine raids with stories.. they are not inside only but mostly outside... and there are 3 times 150 of them... 150 for every faction,,

    This will work well in combination with the dungeons and their gear system, gear will have random stats, and every tier of progression will have better stats... even better, you could allways find a better item

     

    People are so underinformed about this game, its just not funny anymore, they base their opinion up on false assumptions and worse..

    Where is this info coming from on Adventure zones? Only info I have seen so far said that there will be 1 adventure zone at launch with more to follow. I don't see anywhere that is says there will be 450 zones. I know that each factions questing time is estimated to be 150. So they have said that at level 50 you can play another faction for 150, then a 3rd for 150 hours. That is 3 x 150hrs for questing. But that is the 50+ and 50++ content, not the Adventure zones.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by artemisentr4
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by flguy147
    Adventure Zones is ESO's form of raiding.  I am more of a PVE player but i totally disagree that PVP cant be endgame.  Some people dont like FPS type games at all so i am not sure why you compared BF to a MMO.  2 completely different things.  And i throw away more money than 15 bucks a month so i could care less about a lowsy 15 bucks a month.

     

    Adventure zones are progressive in 3 layers... and they combine raids with stories.. they are not inside only but mostly outside... and there are 3 times 150 of them... 150 for every faction,,

    This will work well in combination with the dungeons and their gear system, gear will have random stats, and every tier of progression will have better stats... even better, you could allways find a better item

     

    People are so underinformed about this game, its just not funny anymore, they base their opinion up on false assumptions and worse..

    Where is this info coming from on Adventure zones? Only info I have seen so far said that there will be 1 adventure zone at launch with more to follow. I don't see anywhere that is says there will be 450 zones. I know that each factions questing time is estimated to be 150. So they have said that at level 50 you can play another faction for 150, then a 3rd for 150 hours. That is 3 x 150hrs for questing. But that is the 50+ and 50++ content, not the Adventure zones.

    It came from a developer interview, they clearly stated it was adventure zones...  And added those numbers, explaining how it would be part of the endgame... Really dont know which website it was tough..

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • PigglesworthPigglesworth Delaware, OHPosts: 257Member Uncommon
    There will not be 150x3 adventure zones. That is way off.

    But there will be several adventure zones for small force raids at launch.

    @PigglesworthTWR on Twitter

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  • MukeMuke BredaPosts: 2,171Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Desetes
    I don't see this game lasting more than a few months, much like every other MMO that comes out these days. PVP isn't end-game content, if people wanted to PVP they'd play BF4, LoL, Chivalry, etc. No one is going to pay $15 a month to PVP when so many free games exist. The reason why WoW has lasted is because of the hardcore raiding endgame.

    Not every MMO needs raiding to be successful.

    The reason why WOW did so well was purely the horse-carrot raiding addiction every player there developed.

    Kudos to Blizzard for that though.

    "going into arguments with idiots is a lost cause, it requires you to stoop down to their level and you can't win"

  • shalissarshalissar Pohjois-PohjanmaaPosts: 296Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Rampaji

    Many people seems whine and even like to whine. Its up to you personally to make a game experience funny. You can even play MONOPOLY many times and its still fun when you play, If you are having fun with does you play with. :)

    Pvp endgame i dont care that much about pvp. But if people are having fun, then have fun with. :)

    Im going to play with many real life friends, explore the game and all the content it brings up. And maybe we going to join a raid guild going to explore the "raids areas and have fun with that".

     

    Help Yourself to get a good solid fun and laughs playing. then you might even get invited to join a guild or be on others friendlist ;)

     

    Happy Hakuna

     

    Plus one, share the love and make your own fun!!!

  • Lord.BachusLord.Bachus Den HelderPosts: 9,064Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Desetes
    I don't see this game lasting more than a few months, much like every other MMO that comes out these days. PVP isn't end-game content, if people wanted to PVP they'd play BF4, LoL, Chivalry, etc. No one is going to pay $15 a month to PVP when so many free games exist. The reason why WoW has lasted is because of the hardcore raiding endgame.

    Not every MMO needs raiding to be successful.

    The reason why WOW did so well was purely the horse-carrot raiding addiction every player there developed.

    Kudos to Blizzard for that though.

    But every MMO is about progression...  You call it horse carrot... But if its not there and progression stops at max level..  or if there is just  not enough progression, then people will stop playing...

     

    there is many kinds of progression

    - level progression

    - story progression

    - area progression

    - dungeon progression

    - raid progression

    - gear progression

    - title and rank progression

    - archievement progression

    - character development progression ( AA systems for example )

    - colllections... 

    - world progression  

    - battle ground progression

     

    And there are many more possible forms of progression...  Make a game in which people want to advance and reach the next step, and you have a succesfull MMO....   This is where GW2 failed, as for the majorrity of players there was simply not enough reason to keep progressing...

     

    if you add enough interesting ways of progression, and make sure progression you knew from  1 to 50 does not stop at max level endgame, then you have a winner....

    Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)

  • artemisentr4artemisentr4 fresno, CAPosts: 1,431Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Lord.Bachus
    Originally posted by Muke
    Originally posted by Desetes
    I don't see this game lasting more than a few months, much like every other MMO that comes out these days. PVP isn't end-game content, if people wanted to PVP they'd play BF4, LoL, Chivalry, etc. No one is going to pay $15 a month to PVP when so many free games exist. The reason why WoW has lasted is because of the hardcore raiding endgame.

    Not every MMO needs raiding to be successful.

    The reason why WOW did so well was purely the horse-carrot raiding addiction every player there developed.

    Kudos to Blizzard for that though.

    But every MMO is about progression...  You call it horse carrot... But if its not there and progression stops at max level..  or if there is just  not enough progression, then people will stop playing...

     

    there is many kinds of progression

    - level progression

    - story progression

    - area progression

    - dungeon progression

    - raid progression

    - gear progression

    - title and rank progression

    - archievement progression

    - character development progression ( AA systems for example )

    - colllections... 

    - world progression  

    - battle ground progression

     

    And there are many more possible forms of progression...  Make a game in which people want to advance and reach the next step, and you have a succesfull MMO....   This is where GW2 failed, as for the majorrity of players there was simply not enough reason to keep progressing...

     

    if you add enough interesting ways of progression, and make sure progression you knew from  1 to 50 does not stop at max level endgame, then you have a winner....

    I agree, it is progression that makes players want to  continue. WoW used psychologists to work on addiction in game play. Obviously it worked. Chain quests that make you want to continue. Low drop rates that make you grind until you get that carrot. Rep grind, gear grind, weapon level grind and so on. Many of the new MMO's wanted to get away from the "grind", but it takes away the addiction of having to finish a quest, find an item, get that piece of gear and so on.

     

    ESO looks to at least have the skill chase right. Only  30% of skills gained by level 50. Adding in a lot of skills with updates and new guilds. Weapon, armor and skill leveling with morphing of skills. Being able to pick up a weapon or put on armor any time and begin to skill up by use changing you play. Or changing builds based on who you may be PvPing against as in the Undead vs Fighter guild skills.

     

    And yes, some kind of raiding as in Adventure zones. But as only one option for gearing up with end game gear. Not the only option. There will still be Master dungeons, 50+/50++, Crafting and PvP for end game gear.

    “How many people long for that "past, simpler, and better world," I wonder, without ever recognizing the truth that perhaps it was they who were simpler and better, and not the world about them?”
    R.A.Salvatore

  • Mackaveli44Mackaveli44 Huntington Beach, CAPosts: 151Member Uncommon

    I'm one of those who are excited for it.  On paper, the mass amount of dungeons, contested dungeons, Adventure zones and the PvP all have me excited and seem like a lot of content off the bat.  Now I do have my concerns.  After playing Oblivion/Skyrim, I noticed there's a lack of monsters in the world to fight with a lot of emphasis on questing to obtain your skill points/levels.   Now, does this take place in ESO? Not sure but from what Ive heard about the first starter zone, it seems that way.  But again, that was a starter zone.  Will it open up past the starter zone?  I sure as hell hope so and I know some friends who are looking into it hope so as well.  Now, don't get me wrong, it is an Elder Scrolls game which means itll be story driven but there should be different ways of progressing your character other then just questing/doing the story and I hope they open it up that way.

    In my opinion, they have to have a mix of content to please the masses.  What I mean by that is, content for those people who love to quest(which I can be but like a change of pace) for xp/gear and since its an Elder Scrolls game, It WILL have a ton of quest content, and XP for those who like to go out and kill stuff in the world(I also love doing this as well).  Again, from what I've heard about the first starter zone, it was primarily questing which is a little disheartening and worrisome.  I sure hope the contested dungeons open up the possibility for group xp grind groups for those who enjoy to team up with friends/guildies and hunt mobs for xp/skill points.  Adventure zones - What is the significance of those?  Xp? Loot? raids? all 3? Im excited to see what they are and how they will play a role in the content we get.  Will they progress in difficulty the further in you explore in each zone? Will there be static mob camps to hunt mobs? Will there be named monsters to go after for loot? So many questions regarding those zones.

    Afterall, it is an MMO which means theyre going to need a carrot at the end of the stick driving people to continue playing and so with that said, that means itll more then likely be gear based.  As well as realm pride based through the Cyrodill PvP.  Everybody loves loot else we all wouldnt be playing these kind of games.  Is gear going to have stats on them that affect our character how do they in other games?  As in + to str, or dex, etc.  Now I understand the stat system in the game is different relying on Magicka, Stamina, and Health but what other stats are there going to be and will they appear on gear? Is more difficult content, I.e expert/heroic/group content going to need a tank?(I love that roll of playing tanks) I know gear will have its benefits, example; Heavy armor having + HP/defensive, leather having evasion, cloth having + to mana regen etc. But will they also have stats on them? 

    In a nutshell;

    Will there be areas to hunt mobs for xp or will it be forced questing to gain levels/skill points/gear? (I hope not, FFXIV took the forced route and myself and my buddies left quickly because you had no incentive to go out and hunt the wild other then for the Fates)

    Will there be named monsters in the world to go after for loot?

    WIll the contested dungeons/Instances/Adventure zones be ways to obtain xp/skill points/loot?

    How open are the zones/How big are they? Im not expecting skyrim big but seeing as how there will be zonelines, will each zone be large and open or funneled and linear?

    Im sure Ill have more questions but cant think of them right now off the top of my head.  A lot of these are questions thatll dictate whether my buddies play or not.  More so for them, and not me.

  • Caliburn101Caliburn101 LondonPosts: 636Member

    I think the progression model is on the face of it quite robust.

    The potential for various skill trees from class, race, NPC guild and questlines; multiple unlocked skill setups (further varied by in-skill specialisation options) and multiple gear stat boost setups means working towards a character theme and furnishing that theme with the desired abilities and optimisations will take, potentially, a great deal of time to achieve.

    When this apparent fact is placed alongside the multiple paths with which one can achieve them - solo and group quest and exploration based world, open and closed dungeon PVE, adventure zone 'raid-size' PVE, and of course the central PVP, not to mention crafting et al, the variations on how you get there are not merely additive, they multiply.

    This is a good thing - one of the greatest complaints about '3 month' games is that they allow speedy advancement to 'end-game' and top skill and gear levels are acheivable too quickly. The locusts always find the line of least resistance and spam it until they get bored.

    I think Zenimax have been fully cognisant of this and have claimed to have built a game which has a non-linear, networked advancement model, hopefully sidestepping this problem entirely.

    Of course, their claims that they have such a model could end up being smoke and mirrors. But if it isn't, I can actually see the kinds of players who love playing alts actually sticking with one character for much longer, building alternative skill and gear setups on one toon - 'alting' one character if you will - because as presented to us thusfar, this is the first time it has been meaningfully possible.

    If this is indeed the case, I will be mightily impressed, and my personal habit of sticking with one character will be far more interesting and engaging for far, far longer than even a locust could complain about.

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