Originally posted by Celcius That article is more about claiming the sub model is dead then using specific reasons as to why the game will be a big disaster.
That was my takeaway, too.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
Originally posted by Pigglesworth ESO may not bring anything especially new to the genre, but it does bring almost all the best ideas into one place.
Think of it as a "best practices" MMO.
"The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."
Sums up most of the genre lately, the same pile of crap in a new package. So making yet another game with old ideas is going to do what? The same as all the other games that have done that the last 7 years.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by Pigglesworth ESO may not bring anything especially new to the genre, but it does bring almost all the best ideas into one place.
Think of it as a "best practices" MMO.
"The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."
Sums up most of the genre lately, the same pile of crap in a new package. So making yet another game with old ideas is going to do what? The same as all the other games that have done that the last 7 years.
That isn't the definition of madness. It's just a quote from a very famous person taking a shot at some researchers.
And most of you seem to say making the same pile of crap using old ideas is why the genre is dying, what they really need to do is make a game with even older ideas and that's what people want.
I think a more appropriate famous quot for the forum going mmo genre is...
If I asked them what they wanted, they would of said faster horses.
You guys need to remember, this dude is a CONTRIBUTOR which means he's some internet blogger who writes articles and gets them posted. I can't tell you how many of these contributors have had bad grammar and spelling in their articles as well as extreme bias's, which this seems to have. The guy hates the sub model, there isn't really anything else in there that says why ESO itself will be a failure. For fucks-sake he uses SWTOR as an example, I mean, could you try to compare two games further apart?
That isn't the definition of madness. It's just a quote from a very famous person taking a shot at some researchers.
And most of you seem to say making the same pile of crap using old ideas is why the genre is dying, what they really need to do is make a game with even older ideas and that's what people want.
You mean Albert Einstein..............
And your idea is to go back to making games like they were before the vast majority of players started playing MMOs, because that's what they want. No, its what YOU want because you have rose colored glasses on. Prove it, go back to playing DaoC, UO, EQ1 or AC1 and see how long you can stomach it. They are all still going. Go on, your style of game is still going. And also, TESO is not doing that. They are making a typical MMORPG the like of which has been done a dozen times already, the kind YOU stopped playing because its the same old tried thing.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Originally posted by Ice-Queen I think he has a point somewhat. Console players absolutely will not pay a monthly subscription fee to play it. They're just not that type of gamer, they're the pay $60 for a game, play it til they beat it, then move on type of gamers.
I think MMOs like FFXI and FFXIV have shown console gamers will pay a monthly subscription to play a game.
That isn't the definition of madness. It's just a quote from a very famous person taking a shot at some researchers.
And most of you seem to say making the same pile of crap using old ideas is why the genre is dying, what they really need to do is make a game with even older ideas and that's what people want.
You mean Albert Einstein..............
And your idea is to go back to making games like they were before the vast majority of players started playing MMOs, because that's what they want. No, its what YOU want because you have rose colored glasses on. Prove it, go back to playing DaoC, UO, EQ1 or AC1 and see how long you can stomach it. They are all still going. Go on, your style of game is still going. And also, TESO is not doing that. They are making a typical MMORPG the like of which has been done a dozen times already, the kind YOU stopped playing because its the same old tried thing.
Yup Albert Einstein /golfclap. Everything else...well..see the comma ? it's not me saying I want it. Keep reading and it might make more sense.
That isn't the definition of madness. It's just a quote from a very famous person taking a shot at some researchers.
And most of you seem to say making the same pile of crap using old ideas is why the genre is dying, what they really need to do is make a game with even older ideas and that's what people want.
You mean Albert Einstein..............
And your idea is to go back to making games like they were before the vast majority of players started playing MMOs, because that's what they want. No, its what YOU want because you have rose colored glasses on. Prove it, go back to playing DaoC, UO, EQ1 or AC1 and see how long you can stomach it. They are all still going. Go on, your style of game is still going. And also, TESO is not doing that. They are making a typical MMORPG the like of which has been done a dozen times already, the kind YOU stopped playing because its the same old tried thing.
Yup Albert Einstein /golfclap. Everything else...well..see the comma ? it's not me saying I want it. Keep reading and it might make more sense.
You mean the part that's underlined in my post where I talk about whats after the comma........you know, where you said they need to make even older ideas because that's what people want.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
That isn't the definition of madness. It's just a quote from a very famous person taking a shot at some researchers.
And most of you seem to say making the same pile of crap using old ideas is why the genre is dying, what they really need to do is make a game with even older ideas and that's what people want.
You mean Albert Einstein..............
And your idea is to go back to making games like they were before the vast majority of players started playing MMOs, because that's what they want. No, its what YOU want because you have rose colored glasses on. Prove it, go back to playing DaoC, UO, EQ1 or AC1 and see how long you can stomach it. They are all still going. Go on, your style of game is still going. And also, TESO is not doing that. They are making a typical MMORPG the like of which has been done a dozen times already, the kind YOU stopped playing because its the same old tried thing.
Yup Albert Einstein /golfclap. Everything else...well..see the comma ? it's not me saying I want it. Keep reading and it might make more sense.
You mean the part that's underlined in my post where I talk about whats after the comma........you know, where you said they need to make even older ideas because that's what people want.
It's part of the same sentence genius. It's a comma..... It's, most of you say.....everything you quoted....look at the rest of the post that you cut out. Look at the other quote I put at the end.
I didn't say I want them to use even older ideas. I said it's what people are asking for.
some of the points and concerns are valid, but I will step out on a limb and say he is wrong in assuming most people are stepping away from subscription based MMOs. I have tried to jump on this wagon of F2P gaming and as many as I have tried and played, I still prefer my MMOs with subscriptions. I cannot name ONE F2P MMO that I have enjoyed playing on a regular basis for at least 1 year. Usually the restrictions, quality of gameplay and the cash shops turn me off.
I may not jump right into ESO on day one, but I have played the betas so far and like the direction they are going. After the last beta I had an empty hole that just was not filled by other games.
The article was nothing more than more anti-sub fee whining.
If the game is good, people will pay - if it is, they'll leave. The only thing that will doom ESO is if the game doesn't live up to deserving a sub.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
It will be a lot better than SWTOR for sure, that can be seen easily from gameplay footage already, so it won´t fail as hard as SWTOR.
No one can beat the level of fail that SWTOR was, not even TESO. But it will switch to buy to play and paid DLCs soon after launch, probably similiar to TSW which is running great now and has lots of players.
swtor was a failure at start but its doing great now
and btw how the tsw is doing "great" ? it has x2 less playerbase than swtor lol
I think the article raises some valid concerns. Frankly, I don't think it's fair to be overly dismissive of the points brought up, especially since most of us have borne witness to the post-WoW apocalyptic MMO space.
Is the p2p model somewhat outdated and risky?
--It certainly IS. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
Will hardcore Elder Scrolls fans probably walk away less than impressed?
-- They likely WILL. Several compromises from the single-player game had to be made to translate this to an MMO.
But will ESO end up being a success? That remains to be seen.
they are heavilly influenced by the loud minorityy of the interwebs that is very very vocal... but also very very negative.. And worst of it, its the same people that predicted WoW dooms for the warcraft IP...
I dont care what others think and say, i will be my own judge when it comes to gaming... and so far Both ESo and Wildstar are very rpomissing... actually it reminds me of the EQ2 vs WoW race... including the population of doomsayers on the interwebs...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
this article talks about profits not about gamer's entertainment, they say that Beth-Zeni spend too much money for a product which wont sell so much to justify their expenditures for this MMO .
Originally posted by loulaki this article talks about profits not about gamer's entertainment, they say that Beth-Zeni spend too much money for a product which wont sell so much to justify their expenditures for this MMO .
And profits do not depend on gamers entertainment? Apart from the rare cases where the box sales alone yield enough cash for the game to be profitable, people have to actually play an online game and spend money one way or the other to cover running cost and give a suitable return on investment.
The article is a masterpiece of hyperbole and a shining example of contemporary journalism which excels at making sinister prophecies based on no or incomplete data.
As I said in a former post: Might well be that TESO sucks and tanks, but not for the reasons that glorious journalist fielded.
It's part of the same sentence genius. It's a comma..... It's, most of you say.....everything you quoted....look at the rest of the post that you cut out. Look at the other quote I put at the end.
I didn't say I want them to use even older ideas. I said it's what people are asking for.
Really? No way, how about now looking at the part where I point out HOW could "most of" be asking for even older gameplay ideas when "most of" those players weren't even playing back then?!? There were less than 2 million MMORPG players 13 years ago so how can most of the over 30 million MMORPG players of today be asking for crap they didn't take part in, and WHY would they when everything we have today is using all of those ideas in an evolved form?!? That's like saying people would want to go back to the hand crank automobiles to get away from using a key ignition instead of wanting a voice activated hover-car.
It is clear that it is your perspective you are giving because you are tossing out all logic in favor of something that makes no sense at all.......not to mention the fact that most of these damn clones got their ideas from those very same old games you are referring to. WoW did not start everything, it took almost every idea from previous games. THAT is why players are SICK of the same old crap over and over again because its just the same pile getting bigger and bigger.
We don't want whats at the bottom of that pile, because its part of the SAME pile. Its old, boring and been done too many times. Most people want something NEW AND DIFFERENT.
All TESO is doing is taking the same pile of crap and placing it in a new bag, with a popular brand on the package.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
It's part of the same sentence genius. It's a comma..... It's, most of you say.....everything you quoted....look at the rest of the post that you cut out. Look at the other quote I put at the end.
I didn't say I want them to use even older ideas. I said it's what people are asking for.
Really? No way, how about now looking at the part where I point out HOW could "most of" be asking for even older gameplay ideas when "most of" those players weren't even playing back then?!? There were less than 2 million MMORPG players 13 years ago so how can most of the over 30 million MMORPG players of today be asking for crap they didn't take part in, and WHY would they when everything we have today is using all of those ideas in an evolved form?!? That's like saying people would want to go back to the hand crank automobiles to get away from using a key ignition instead of wanting a voice activated hover-car.
It is clear that it is your perspective you are giving because you are tossing out all logic in favor of something that makes no sense at all.......not to mention the fact that most of these damn clones got their ideas from those very same old games you are referring to. WoW did not start everything, it took almost every idea from previous games. THAT is why players are SICK of the same old crap over and over again because its just the same pile getting bigger and bigger.
We don't want whats at the bottom of that pile, because its part of the SAME pile. Its old, boring and been done too many times. Most people want something NEW AND DIFFERENT.
All TESO is doing is taking the same pile of crap and placing it in a new bag, with a popular brand on the package.
You're reading comprehension is atrocious. Even after telling you a third time to go back and read the first post all the way through you're still clinging to things I didn't say and miss quoting parts of it. I'm not sure explaining this a 4th time is even worth it but it will be the last time.
"most of" ...talking about people posting on the forums asking for "old school". That's a very specific group of people....not what you read into it. You, and your inability to read a full post that's only a few lines long seemed to have missed that.
It's clear that it's my perspective..... that you have no idea what I want in an mmo because nothing in that post implied I want any of it. You want to rant about that and you want me to have said it. The only person talking about what " we all" want is you. The only thing I said in that post is Henry Ford was right, you can't leave innovation up to people who don't even know what it is.
You really seem to have a bad habit of not reading all the way to the end and fabricating your universe to fit what you want it to mean.
Comments
Most games boost the spawn rates for the first few weeks, especially in the starting zones.
Also, the phasing will stop everyone from coming into the same place.
@PigglesworthTWR on Twitter
Pigglesworth @ EQNForum.com, MMORPG.com, EQNextfans.com, ProjectNorrath.com, & EQNFanSite.com
Malcontent @ EQNexus.com & EQHammer.com
That was my takeaway, too.
There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
"Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre
"The definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over again expecting different results."
Sums up most of the genre lately, the same pile of crap in a new package. So making yet another game with old ideas is going to do what? The same as all the other games that have done that the last 7 years.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
@PigglesworthTWR on Twitter
Pigglesworth @ EQNForum.com, MMORPG.com, EQNextfans.com, ProjectNorrath.com, & EQNFanSite.com
Malcontent @ EQNexus.com & EQHammer.com
Why not just play Skyrim?
I prefer MMOs.
@PigglesworthTWR on Twitter
Pigglesworth @ EQNForum.com, MMORPG.com, EQNextfans.com, ProjectNorrath.com, & EQNFanSite.com
Malcontent @ EQNexus.com & EQHammer.com
That isn't the definition of madness. It's just a quote from a very famous person taking a shot at some researchers.
And most of you seem to say making the same pile of crap using old ideas is why the genre is dying, what they really need to do is make a game with even older ideas and that's what people want.
I think a more appropriate famous quot for the forum going mmo genre is...
If I asked them what they wanted, they would of said faster horses.
A very right-wing "organization", there must be sum libruls in dat-der elder-scrulls socilizt compannies deys gots a bones-ta-pik wit!
You mean Albert Einstein..............
And your idea is to go back to making games like they were before the vast majority of players started playing MMOs, because that's what they want. No, its what YOU want because you have rose colored glasses on. Prove it, go back to playing DaoC, UO, EQ1 or AC1 and see how long you can stomach it. They are all still going. Go on, your style of game is still going. And also, TESO is not doing that. They are making a typical MMORPG the like of which has been done a dozen times already, the kind YOU stopped playing because its the same old tried thing.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
I think MMOs like FFXI and FFXIV have shown console gamers will pay a monthly subscription to play a game.
SirCampsalot
Yup Albert Einstein /golfclap. Everything else...well..see the comma ? it's not me saying I want it. Keep reading and it might make more sense.
You mean the part that's underlined in my post where I talk about whats after the comma........you know, where you said they need to make even older ideas because that's what people want.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Fine, we'll compromise. I'll get my way & you'll find a way to be okay with that.
It's part of the same sentence genius. It's a comma..... It's, most of you say.....everything you quoted....look at the rest of the post that you cut out. Look at the other quote I put at the end.
I didn't say I want them to use even older ideas. I said it's what people are asking for.
some of the points and concerns are valid, but I will step out on a limb and say he is wrong in assuming most people are stepping away from subscription based MMOs. I have tried to jump on this wagon of F2P gaming and as many as I have tried and played, I still prefer my MMOs with subscriptions. I cannot name ONE F2P MMO that I have enjoyed playing on a regular basis for at least 1 year. Usually the restrictions, quality of gameplay and the cash shops turn me off.
I may not jump right into ESO on day one, but I have played the betas so far and like the direction they are going. After the last beta I had an empty hole that just was not filled by other games.
For now I will play FFXIV and enjoy.
The article was nothing more than more anti-sub fee whining.
If the game is good, people will pay - if it is, they'll leave. The only thing that will doom ESO is if the game doesn't live up to deserving a sub.
If in 1982 we played with the current mentality, we would have burned down all the pac man games since the red ghost was clearly OP. Instead we just got better at the game.
swtor was a failure at start but its doing great now
and btw how the tsw is doing "great" ? it has x2 less playerbase than swtor lol
I think the article raises some valid concerns. Frankly, I don't think it's fair to be overly dismissive of the points brought up, especially since most of us have borne witness to the post-WoW apocalyptic MMO space.
Is the p2p model somewhat outdated and risky?
--It certainly IS. I don't think anyone will disagree with that.
Will hardcore Elder Scrolls fans probably walk away less than impressed?
-- They likely WILL. Several compromises from the single-player game had to be made to translate this to an MMO.
But will ESO end up being a success? That remains to be seen.
They got no clue about what they are talking..
they are heavilly influenced by the loud minorityy of the interwebs that is very very vocal... but also very very negative.. And worst of it, its the same people that predicted WoW dooms for the warcraft IP...
I dont care what others think and say, i will be my own judge when it comes to gaming... and so far Both ESo and Wildstar are very rpomissing... actually it reminds me of the EQ2 vs WoW race... including the population of doomsayers on the interwebs...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
And profits do not depend on gamers entertainment? Apart from the rare cases where the box sales alone yield enough cash for the game to be profitable, people have to actually play an online game and spend money one way or the other to cover running cost and give a suitable return on investment.
The article is a masterpiece of hyperbole and a shining example of contemporary journalism which excels at making sinister prophecies based on no or incomplete data.
As I said in a former post: Might well be that TESO sucks and tanks, but not for the reasons that glorious journalist fielded.
Really? No way, how about now looking at the part where I point out HOW could "most of" be asking for even older gameplay ideas when "most of" those players weren't even playing back then?!? There were less than 2 million MMORPG players 13 years ago so how can most of the over 30 million MMORPG players of today be asking for crap they didn't take part in, and WHY would they when everything we have today is using all of those ideas in an evolved form?!? That's like saying people would want to go back to the hand crank automobiles to get away from using a key ignition instead of wanting a voice activated hover-car.
It is clear that it is your perspective you are giving because you are tossing out all logic in favor of something that makes no sense at all.......not to mention the fact that most of these damn clones got their ideas from those very same old games you are referring to. WoW did not start everything, it took almost every idea from previous games. THAT is why players are SICK of the same old crap over and over again because its just the same pile getting bigger and bigger.
We don't want whats at the bottom of that pile, because its part of the SAME pile. Its old, boring and been done too many times. Most people want something NEW AND DIFFERENT.
All TESO is doing is taking the same pile of crap and placing it in a new bag, with a popular brand on the package.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
You're reading comprehension is atrocious. Even after telling you a third time to go back and read the first post all the way through you're still clinging to things I didn't say and miss quoting parts of it. I'm not sure explaining this a 4th time is even worth it but it will be the last time.
"most of" ...talking about people posting on the forums asking for "old school". That's a very specific group of people....not what you read into it. You, and your inability to read a full post that's only a few lines long seemed to have missed that.
It's clear that it's my perspective..... that you have no idea what I want in an mmo because nothing in that post implied I want any of it. You want to rant about that and you want me to have said it. The only person talking about what " we all" want is you. The only thing I said in that post is Henry Ford was right, you can't leave innovation up to people who don't even know what it is.
You really seem to have a bad habit of not reading all the way to the end and fabricating your universe to fit what you want it to mean.