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Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by Quirhid Originally posted by Cephus404 Originally posted by FinalFikus Depends on the game. People don't play or leave because of the DP.
That's false. Any game that instituted a severe or permanent death penalty into their game, I'd quit immediately, for that reason alone. I do not play that kind of game, period. I think lots of people are the same.
I think he meant "in general" which is true.
No, I think that if you push the death penalty in games too far, you'll lose the majority of players. That's why death penalty mechanics largely went away with old school games.
yeah .. there is no big successful game with a harsh DP.
The only exception is D3, where perma-death is only an option.
It really depends upon too many other factors about what sort of game it is and how the other mechanics of the game work......and also how common death is expected within the game.
For me, I also like to concept that you do need to deal in some way with the fact you just died rather then completely ignore it. Since I also like games based on cooperative play.... I like the idea that getting help in some way helps mitigate some or all of the effects of death.
Something perhaps like....
Die and lose a small amount of xp and you suffer a small wound which can hinder you slightly until healed. Your spirit stays with your body awaiting resurrection for upto 20 minutes although you can depart sooner if you wish.
Get resurrected and you suffer resurrection sickness which is a moderate debuff for a short time.
Have your spirit depart from your body and you suffer a moderate xp loss (though you never Lose a level), suffer more wounds (which need to be healed), have a few items that break and a few items that get dropped by your corpse....possibly looted by mobs in the area and possibly recoverable.
Note, I prefer games that aren't gear grind oriented so loosing gear would be more akin to loosing some units in an RTS game.....ultimately just a resource/gold hit.....not loosing the +50 Sword of Uber Doom that you spent 20 hours grinding a RAID mob for. Again alot depends upon the other design features in tha game..... they have to all work together to create the sort of game experiencing your target audience will expect.
The death penalty for WoW works just fine for the type of game experience that something like WoW intends to deliver. You really have to make the different game mexchanisms/features all fit together to deliver to a cohesive experience consistent with what the chosen audience expects..... so something like I suggested, just wouldn't work if placed in a WoW type game.
I'd say that depends upon the type of game being played. The mechanic has to match the users expectations of the game as a whole. For example in many Single-Player RPGS, death of the main character means you litteraly lose the game...the game ends and the player has to restore from a previous save (if they desire). Death of other party members is permanent. In certain FPS style games (or match types) like World of Tanks or World of Warplanes means you are out of the match... you are free to go on to play the next match but your side will win or lose the current one without further participation from you.
Ultimately the game as a whole has to be FUN for the intended audience.... the consequences of dying whether negligable or severe are a part of that, even if no one actualy likes the dying or penalty part itself. For example, in Chess the consequences of loosing a Queen are pretty severe within the game. Few players actualy enjoy the prospect of loosing a Queen in the match but many DO enjoy the type of game Chess is.....take away the significant consequences for loosing pieces and you'd make it into an entirely different type of game.
Originally posted by darkedone02 the perfect death penelty is nothing... no stat lost, no gear lost, no exp lost/dept. I'm surprised i've yet see a game to where if you die, your account is banned for a week, the ban doubles if you die again after it's lifted.
Is actually the worst idea for a death penalty. If there's no risk of losing anything, than what benefit is there to winning?
Seems a bit hollow to me.
The best death penalties are those which it is clearly in the player's control to avoid if they play properly. It should sting enough to make one think twice about undertaking risky ventures, and avoid completely situations where the chance of success is very slim.
A player should never consider death an acceptable means of fast travel, or if they do, they should be willing to pay for it in some significant way.
"Winning" at EVE Online since May, 2007!
In my day MMORPG's were so hard we fought our way through dungeons in the snow, uphill both ways.
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Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Ultimately the game as a whole has to be FUN for the intended audience.... the consequences of dying whether negligable or severe are a part of that, even if no one actualy likes the dying or penalty part itself. For example, in Chess the consequences of loosing a Queen are pretty severe within the game. Few players actualy enjoy the prospect of loosing a Queen in the match but many DO enjoy the type of game Chess is.....take away the significant consequences for loosing pieces and you'd make it into an entirely different type of game.
I do not see this as equivalent since I see losing a piece in chess as the same as losing HP or mana in a MMORPG fight. It hinders you during the current fight but once the match is over, you will get it back . In chess you might lose most of your pieces during a match but you get them all back for the next match. When I play a MMORPG I simply do not consider all the months or even years of gameplay as one single continuous match but as a series of shorter matches with an overachieving progression.
Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by darkedone02 the perfect death penelty is nothing... no stat lost, no gear lost, no exp lost/dept. I'm surprised i've yet see a game to where if you die, your account is banned for a week, the ban doubles if you die again after it's lifted.
The benefit of winning is the satisfaction of beating a challenge, improving your skill and in general learning about overcomming your limitations. Any other benefits seem rather hollow and pointless.
Situations where the chances of success are very slim are the most challenging, skill testing and generally most fun. Death penalties that discourage players from seeking out those challenges advocate mediocracity and cater to the lowest common denominator. If I wanted to play it safe, I would spend my time 'killing level 2 boars' all day rather than trying to kill dragons. I do not want to play games that encourage that kind of gameplay.
Upon reaching 0 HP, a character may choose to release his spirit from his mortal body in order for a spirit healer to resurrect him at the nearest graveyard, or he may choose to wait in an unconscious state until someone resurrects him at the location of his death.
If a character chooses to release his spirit, a tombstone is created with all the contents of his backpack, but not with the items he had equipped at the moment of death. The equipped items persist through death and stay with the character. The exception to this rule are extremely powerful items that are unique, meaning there is only one of them in the entire game world. These items stay with the tombstone, regardless if they were equipped or not. These items also can't be mailed or stored in a bank, so they will always remain with a character, either equipped or in his backpack. The items equipped at the moment of death receive a durability hit after a character releases his spirit. The extremely powerful and unique items described above never receive a durability hit.
The tombstone remains within the game world for a limited period of time and can be looted or desecrated by anyone who stumbles upon it. The period of time it remains within the game world is determined by multiple factors including the quality of the tombstone, boons by deities, special rituals, etc. These factors may also serve to protect the tombstone from desecration and/or looting for a small period of time. Furthermore, after the character is resurrected, he is afflicted with resurrection sickness, which negatively affects the character's stats moderately for a period of time.
If a character decides to wait in an unconscious state for someone to resurrect him, he may only do so for a limited amount of time and other players may finish him off, automatically releasing his spirit to the nearest graveyard and creating a tombstone.
Said system makes it so that death is something to be feared, but it does not lead to players running around naked as to not risk losing their main gear. Players will always use the best items available to them, but there is still an incentive to kill others considering they drop all the items in the backpack. The debuff applied after being resurrected by a spirit healer in the nearest graveyard makes it so that players can't go back to the action immediately (at least in optimal conditions), making death in the battlefield a very significant element for the tide of battle.
Originally posted by Torik
I think part of the challenge is knowing your character's limitations and avoiding situations that you are bound to fail. Failing over and over on the off chance that you may succeed is about as "smart and skillful" as the dog going back to his own vomit over and over. Failure should have a cost associated with it to reward those who are able to avoid it.
No one is saying you should "fight level 2 bears" over and over but there is a balance between cowardly and foolhardy play. Neither one should be rewarded in game mechanics. Careful and strategic play should be what's rewarded.
In pvp environment it does not make sense to loose things etc. I would suggest instead a drop in reputation.
Each time you get to a new level cap your title change from private to the next title role. But if you die you get to loose reputation point and at certain points you get dropped to a previous title you use to own also they could put it that once you reach a certain level you unlock certain arena or battleground that you could not do previously and if you die and go back to previous title then you loose access to it again till back to the proper title needed.
Reason been is that every single mmorpg that has pvp in it there is always some elitist that think that using vent etc. and ganking people by jumping 2 or 3 at a time on a single character makes them so powerful when in reality anyone can do this and win easily against an opponent . But the person that's gets owned like this starts after a while getting frustrated and makes even more mistakes even the one's that gets corpse camped don't like it and other solution don't look viable in my opinion in this scenario.
If a game don't allow the option to gank people at any time or punish properly that kind of players then the other options given in this tread starts to look proper. eg : tombstones with items carried at the time or otherworlds and quest involved to get back to living world. But other then that it does not make sense . Imagine you get ganked 5 times inside a single play time ( 30 to 45 min of play ). There is no way that game will be fun.
Just take the way WoW as it when it comes to pvp or even world pvp. Even EQ or other mmorpg's the way they are design is not suitable for this type of death penalty specially when it comes to arena game play.
On the PVE side of those said games it makes sense, like that people don't rush inside dungeon's or raid's and don't have a choice other then learn them because if they die then they could loose a huge item they got a week earlier or a few weeks back in the raid.
Like this we prevent pk players to ruined game play for other's and you get a certain feeling of accomplishment and harder raids for pve players with a real dedication to it. ( Just need to make sure that once they are full geared they will not even be remotely possible for them to solo the content even in a full group by tweaking the raid with the items level the group has and that is a very hard raid that keeps people playing all the time).
edit : it would also make it not possible for people to farm those raids for items and affect the economy it will also stop people to reach max level faster by doing previous raids that are now considered obsolete because the new expact jsut got out.
A dev of a game I played talked about this in a forum post: They'd researched it, and found that the single biggest death penalty, from the player perspective, was time taken to get back into the game.
Getting back to what they were doing was the greatest penalty for the player, in their opinion. Make it too onerous, and you drove players out of the game, and out of your profit scheme. Like most things, there's probably a bell curve for players as to 'what's acceptable'. Get too extreme, and you risk people deciding that the game is dead to them.
If you are holding out for the perfect game, the only game you play will be the waiting one.
Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by Kyleran Originally posted by darkedone02 the perfect death penelty is nothing... no stat lost, no gear lost, no exp lost/dept. I'm surprised i've yet see a game to where if you die, your account is banned for a week, the ban doubles if you die again after it's lifted.
Exactly. Why would devs create anything they deem challenging or for exploration when everyone would stay near starter zones to "play it safe"? Also you'd only get groups of players that would only group up with other players that are well over geared for certain "challenging" encounters, actually making those encounters trivial.
You already see this in several mmorpgs where players are looking for others who are overgeared and experienced. And you want to add a irritating DP on top of that? Good luck.
"Small minds talk about people, average minds talk about events, great minds talk about ideas."
Originally posted by iridescence Originally posted by Torik
The thing about this is that I am usually able to decide when a challenge is too hard for me and go do something more manageable. Maybe in a day or two I will come up with a better strategy for tacking it or simply level enough to reduce some of the challenge (and sadly some of the satisfaction at beating it). It seems too me that people who need harsh death penalties to 'herd' them into less challenging content are too dumb to recognize when they are beat. It might be a bit elitist from me but I do not want death penalties to detract from my gameplay experience simply to cater to teh stupid players.
Originally posted by iridescence
No one is saying you should "fight level 2 bears" over and over but there is a balance between cowardly and foolhardy play. Neither one should be rewarded in game mechanics. Careful and strategic play should be what's rewarded.
There is already a balance. If you fight "level 2 bears" over and over, it will take you 1000x longer to level up.
I just dislike alot of the death penelty, during my world of warcraft days, everytime i die, i have to pay a fuck ton of gold, like 40 gold, which is rare to earn besides doing fucktons of dailies, and i don't know why most of the goods that i put in the auction house, even on cheap prices won't be bought, until one day i turn to jewelcrafting, and it became my money maker and help pay my repair bills and help me out on getting the right gems i needed for my gear. I was almost dirt poor with ~1K of gold or so trying to get the right enchant and stats to help min-max my shaman character, and if I don't get min-max, most of the groups in WoW will not pug with me because of my shitty low dps.
I dislike playing games with full PvP looting because of the fear of some griefer going to KoS me, and nobody with a kind soul is going to help me, It happened all the time when I was beta testing Darkfall Online, and after playing that game, I'll steer clear of any mmo that support that feature that encoraged greifing to the fullest extent, I have no fun over that feature, only frusteration, anger, and a sheer hatred over the titles that hold true, and which funny is that these mmo's are dying or already dead, and hardly never heard of again in the ears of the public.
With no death penetly, I have no fear of screwing up, I don't lose any of the items that i held, I don't lose any experience, I don't suffer from the hands of some idiot who don't know the dungeon and screw not just me but everyone else up. I don't have to yell at any newbs for not doing their job right and go all hardcore up their asses. With no death penetly, i don't have to beat myself up over it, and reject the game over continuous loses over my own mental slowness.
------------------------------MMORPGs are great to look forward to after a hard day of work, but heaven is the ultimate reward for those who live Christ-like.
Originally posted by Alasti I assume that everyone here would agree that there needs to be some sort of deterrent to dying in a mmorpg... What is the perfect death penalty? In my opinion, it is something in the neighborhood of Everquest 1...where death was very serious, and you couldn't really continue without at least "dealing" with the fact that you died....but once it was dealt with, you could continue on your merry way... What's your perfect death penalty?
Perfect for me is EQ1 with corpse runs, exp loss and deleveling. Actual risk and penalties make winning rewarding. Games now are so easy and watered down one can literally play and not die with their back turned towards the computer.
Think outside the box.
"Light Death Penalty"
"Harsh Death Penalty"
"Hybrid Death Penalty"
"Medium Death Penalty"
"No Death Penalty"
Why does our motivation for winning always have to be tied to our death? Sure, death can provide incentive. But it is only one factor in numerous ways you could motivate people to strive for success.
A death penalty maybe part of it for me....but what I really want a developer to do, is work on:
Incentive to Live.
Sorry but there's no real challenge in what you are describing, you have convinced yourself that it is challenging to bash your head against a hard encounter with no price for failure other than restarting the encounter but it really isn't. You're right eventually you will figure out the way to beat the encounter or maybe you won't and just have wasted your time but really wanted a challenge you wouldn't mind the harsh death penalty because it would reward you for figuring out the challenge quicker and more skillfully.
I'm not saying there's anything wrong with not wanting a challenge. Sometimes you just want to relax and not have to worry about bad consequences if you screw up in a game but I think single player games where an easy mode or god mode can be turned on for that player alone are better for that. It's bad design to take the option of real challenge away from everyone because a few people don't like it in a multiplayer game.
Originally posted by nariusseldon
Correct. Which is why the argument that people will just grind trivial monsters if there is a death penalty is ridiculous. They will still do the harder encounters if they offer much greater rewards.
Originally posted by Alasti I assume that everyone here would agree that there needs to be some sort of deterrent to dying in a mmorpg...
No there doesn't. Case in point, my wife and I finally got around to playing Lego Batman 2. When you die, you just come back in the same place, virtually instantly. You may lose a few studs but otherwise, you're totally unharmed and can continue the game. That doesn't stop us from trying not to die because the only way to actually beat the game is to kill off all of the enemies and complete the level. There is zero deterrent to dying in that game and it works just fine. Likewise in most multiplayer shooter games, if you die, you just reappear and keep shooting. There is no real deterrent to dying, except that whoever killed you gets more points. It doesn't really hurt you at all.
So no, don't assume that everyone would agree with that. I don't think that any kind of serious death penalty is necessary in any game. The whole point is to have a good time, not be afraid to do anything so you never die.
Played: UO, EQ, WoW, DDO, SWG, AO, CoH, EvE, TR, AoC, GW, GA, Aion, Allods, lots moreRelatively Recently (Re)Played: HL2 (all), Halo (PC, all), Batman:AA; AC, ME, BS, DA, FO3, DS, Doom (all), LFD1&2, KOTOR, Portal 1&2, Blink, Elder Scrolls (all), lots moreNow Playing: NoneHope: None
Originally posted by seafirex In pvp environment it does not make sense to loose things etc. I would suggest instead a drop in reputation.
I don't agree here as I think it just depends from game to game. I understand the rest of your reasoning and for some games you're actually right.
Let's take as example two well known PvP/RvR/PK games in their genre
Warhammer Online AoR vs wotmud (Wheel of Time mud)
Both games fully centered around PvP and one of the best in their respective genre, graphical mmorpg and mud.
You lose an amount of HPS that you can immediately buy back at a healer in a camp/warcamp. That's it.
Mobrip (dying to an NPC)
Lose 1 full level of xp (it's actually the amount of xp you need from current level to next level but it means a bit more than 1 full level)
All your eq remains in your corpse
Can leave the Circle (place where you're put when you die) immediately
Pked (dying to a player)
Lose 1/4 of a level of xp (same formula as for mobrip)
All your eq remains in your corpse. (Game is full loot so if player kills you ...)
Have to spent 15 tics ( bit more than 15-16mins) in your circle and there's nothing to do there.
You lose TPS. (TPS are gained by killing players, % of the TPS the player you kill has. TPS you lose are a % TPS you already have)
Two very different DP systems but both work great in their respective game.
Haven't read through all 10 pages, but this is what I'd like to see...
You start off in a seamless open world. It is an unfair world. You can be killed. You can kill. There are penalties and consequences. You lose your items and your life (in game) when you die. Based on your karma after death - your next place would be determined. Think of it as a heaven/hell type situation. If you make it to heaven - you can take it easy. Enjoy the themepark rides, and it maintains a rather positive and upbeat atmosphere.
If you have negative karma, then you are sent into a type of hell where you are forced to fight your way out of it. There can be other options of leaving, but the price/penalty would be incredibly high. After you succeed - you then have the option to be reborn or go to 'heaven'. Players in heaven also have the option to be reborn, assist friends in hell, or simply stay in heaven.
It is important to note - that players stuck in hell would not be able to get out easy. In my mind - this is something that would take at least a day. Preferably more to ensure a sense of accomplishment!
I thought Evequest and Ultima Online had really good death penalties. Everquest prevented progression if you just ran in and tried to kill something. You had to either have a good group who knew what they were doing as a unit or have a solo class and know how to use that classes abilities to solo. If you died a lot you would actually level backwards. You also had the issue of having to get your corpse back to retrieve your items. I lost my corpse a few times which did suck pretty bad. That may be going to far.
Ultima Online had the most realistic death penalty from an immersion point of view. You would become a ghost and you would have to travel around the world to find a NPC Priest type that would resurrect you. This had the same type of issue that EQ had but worse. Basically you would have to locate your corpse or lose all your items. The worse part was that anyone could loot your corpse and take all your items if they came across it. This also may be going a bit to far as it takes a lot of the effort you put to the game and flushes it down the toilet. I like the whole ideal of turning into a ghost and having to find a priest to resurrect you though. I wouldn't be against having skills or experience detracted from dieing either so people wouldn't just keep attacking something until they succeeded in killing it.
Originally posted by Torik Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Ultimately the game as a whole has to be FUN for the intended audience.... the consequences of dying whether negligable or severe are a part of that, even if no one actualy likes the dying or penalty part itself. For example, in Chess the consequences of loosing a Queen are pretty severe within the game. Few players actualy enjoy the prospect of loosing a Queen in the match but many DO enjoy the type of game Chess is.....take away the significant consequences for loosing pieces and you'd make it into an entirely different type of game.
In an MMO if you lose a sword can you not gain a new sword to replace it? If you lose exp can you not go back out and earn more exp to replace it?
I'm not really trying to argue for or against your perspective. Every individual has personal preferences and different types of games that will appeal to them. I am simply trying to forward the idea that while few people like losing games, many people like playing games where the possability of loosing is significant and where they can suffer significant handicaps due to poor play. Chess, many RTS and Turn Based Strategy games, many shooter type games, some SPRPG, Pen and Paper Roleplaying, virtualy all sports...heck people even go into casino's to gamble where they face the prospect of loosing thousands of dollars in cash.
The elements of a game go toward making the game as a whole fun or unfun for a player. One of those elements is how the game deals with failures, defeats, setbacks and mistakes in play.