Originally posted by donpopuki I think the OP's main criticism is against time sinks. There's a grey area what is considered a time sink versus immersion. For example travel can be tedious or give a sense of grand scope. Sometimes it's both at the same time.
There is an element to that, but more than anything, my intention was to comment on what some people view as content, but is actually the opposite: lack of content.
For example, looking for an important NPC is likely not very hard, so an icon above it saves time to find it. Still some people take odd pride in playing games without said UI elements looking down upon people that do saying games that have those elements are dumbed down if not saying the players themselves are dumb (or playing kids games etc.).
With the methods I outlined in my original post, the little content the game might have gets buried beneath layers upon layers of menial, mundane tasks which have no other function that to keep the player occupied (or to hold up immersion). You might set out to kill a dragon, but first you must gather/buy the necessary provisions, spend time looking for the right group, get organized, set on your way, travel to the spot... and soon you might notice the actual content, killing a dragon, takes a backseat for all the other stuff.
I get that some of these activities can be immersive, and the whole game might be about them. Some such games are very fun. But there should be nothing wrong about making the game more about the content itself!
Trying to achieve good make-believe is fine, but the idea that the game is somehow more demanding or challenging, deeper, or has more content because of such activities and mechanics is bogus. It doesn't take skill to play such games, only time. You space out the real content and it will last longer. It is a no-brainer. At heart, they are the same sort of hamster-wheels as any other game.
i do not think anyone ever have said that mmo's of the past have more content.
But because of said mechanics it sure feels that way. it sounds a whole lot better then being at the endgame within 2 weeks only to scratch your head and realize that its the same damn game as all the others out there.
Originally posted by donpopuki I think the OP's main criticism is against time sinks. There's a grey area what is considered a time sink versus immersion. For example travel can be tedious or give a sense of grand scope. Sometimes it's both at the same time.
For example, looking for an important NPC is likely not very hard, so an icon above it saves time to find it. Still some people take odd pride in playing games without said UI elements looking down upon people that do saying games that have those elements are dumbed down if not saying the players themselves are dumb (or playing kids games etc.).
With the methods I outlined in my original post, the little content the game might have gets buried beneath layers upon layers of menial, mundane tasks which have no other function that to keep the player occupied (or to hold up immersion). You might set out to kill a dragon, but first you must gather/buy the necessary provisions, spend time looking for the right group, get organized, set on your way, travel to the spot... and soon you might notice the actual content, killing a dragon, takes a backseat for all the other stuff.
I get that some of these activities can be immersive, and the whole game might be about them. Some such games are very fun. But there should be nothing wrong about making the game more about the content itself!
Trying to achieve good make-believe is fine, but the idea that the game is somehow more demanding or challenging, deeper, or has more content because of such activities and mechanics is bogus. It doesn't take skill to play such games, only time. You space out the real content, fill the game with activities and mechanics I mentioned, and it will last longer. It is a no-brainer. At heart, they are the same sort of hamster-wheels as any other game.
I guess this guy would've seriously made LOTR like this :
The truth is in the middle of course, but developers didn't seems to grasp the fact that radical design, either being too hardcore or being too shallow is not the solution of the MMO identity crysis.
I see.
See what?
That's my opinion based on observation........... not the absolute truth.
Just look around you and tell me which Hardcore or Ultra Casual games have been a huge success?
If you find any then you might have a point.
Then try to find a game that is a blend of Hardcore and Casual elements (I don't see many around)
These are facts, but what I said after is just my opinion.
I am not saying anything silly..............just observing and coming to a conclusion (my conclusion......not the absolute truth)
Also making comment about previous posts without quoting it doesn't make it easy for a smooth discussion. Just saying.
Originally posted by donpopuki I think the OP's main criticism is against time sinks. There's a grey area what is considered a time sink versus immersion. For example travel can be tedious or give a sense of grand scope. Sometimes it's both at the same time.
For example, looking for an important NPC is likely not very hard, so an icon above it saves time to find it. Still some people take odd pride in playing games without said UI elements looking down upon people that do saying games that have those elements are dumbed down if not saying the players themselves are dumb (or playing kids games etc.).
With the methods I outlined in my original post, the little content the game might have gets buried beneath layers upon layers of menial, mundane tasks which have no other function that to keep the player occupied (or to hold up immersion). You might set out to kill a dragon, but first you must gather/buy the necessary provisions, spend time looking for the right group, get organized, set on your way, travel to the spot... and soon you might notice the actual content, killing a dragon, takes a backseat for all the other stuff.
I get that some of these activities can be immersive, and the whole game might be about them. Some such games are very fun. But there should be nothing wrong about making the game more about the content itself!
Trying to achieve good make-believe is fine, but the idea that the game is somehow more demanding or challenging, deeper, or has more content because of such activities and mechanics is bogus. It doesn't take skill to play such games, only time. You space out the real content, fill the game with activities and mechanics I mentioned, and it will last longer. It is a no-brainer. At heart, they are the same sort of hamster-wheels as any other game.
I guess this guy would've seriously made LOTR like this :
Many many many people here have said that old MMO's have more content.
The time to reach end-game, and the amount of content are two different issues, that are only tangentially related.
You can have a ton of content that takes years to level up, or very little content that you can level up in in a few weeks.
You mean we have very little content wich takes us years to level up and we have alot of content wich takes you a few weeks too level up.
thats pretty wrong no matter how you look at it.
I meant exactly what I said.
The amount of content in a game is only tangentially related to the amount of time to level up.
You can have a game with more content than any other game in existence and still level up in a few weeks.
You can also have a game with almost no content that could take years.
I think most of the MMO's today have more content that most of the MMO's in the past - but they still level up quick.
don't you think thats wrong? your last sentence. shouldn't they have that amount of content but take a year to level up making the game and time invested into a character actually have some kind of meaning.
and with that bringing in social activities wich makes the game something more then just a mere game.
In an RPG the journey should be more important than the destination.
That's fine too. The journey should be important, and there should be content on the journey - not content lite.
Dev content is a very scarce resource in any MMO. Look how much money SWTOR spent trying to produce tons of content for players which they mostly blew through in several weeks and were bored. In theory it would be nice to have a constant stream of scripted high quality new content as fast a players play through which kept pace with how fast players consume it but in practice no studio can produce that. I'd say much better to let the players make their own fun and have immersion and a slower pace rather than a couple of weeks of nice content to play through followed by months of boredom and grind at endgame.
Many many many people here have said that old MMO's have more content.
The time to reach end-game, and the amount of content are two different issues, that are only tangentially related.
You can have a ton of content that takes years to level up, or very little content that you can level up in in a few weeks.
You mean we have very little content wich takes us years to level up and we have alot of content wich takes you a few weeks too level up.
thats pretty wrong no matter how you look at it.
I meant exactly what I said.
The amount of content in a game is only tangentially related to the amount of time to level up.
You can have a game with more content than any other game in existence and still level up in a few weeks.
You can also have a game with almost no content that could take years.
I think most of the MMO's today have more content that most of the MMO's in the past - but they still level up quick.
don't you think thats wrong? your last sentence. shouldn't they have that amount of content but take a year to level up making the game and time invested into a character actually have some kind of meaning.
and with that bringing in social activities wich makes the game something more then just a mere game.
No. It's not wrong.
Going to go into a long winded real life statement here.
Early in my career I was a personal trainer, then finished my schooling and became a Kin and then a physio. In my trainer years I would frequently tell people that the exercise they are doing is wrong, or the way they are doing it is wrong.
15 years later I now realize I was wrong. There is very little in a the gym that people do wrong. There is a lot that is stupid, and a lot that is harmful, but very little that is wrong. Try telling the guy with 23 inch arms that the way he has been working out is wrong. He will laugh at you and he'll be right, it worked for him, it accomplished his goal, therefore it wasn't wrong, maybe just not efficient or not smart or harmfull.
The only time in fitness something is wrong is if it is not accomplishing their goal. I have seen people do really stupid things that IMO would cause further injuries however it did what they accomplished therefore it wasn't wrong, just stupid.
The same reasoning is applied to MMO's.
To me having a lot of content that takes a few weeks to get past or through seems odd. However what is the goal? If it is accomplishing the goal the developer wants than it isn't wrong, possibly misguided, possibly harmfull but not wrong.
So what is the goal?
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There is an element to that, but more than anything, my intention was to comment on what some people view as content, but is actually the opposite: lack of content.
For example, looking for an important NPC is likely not very hard, so an icon above it saves time to find it. Still some people take odd pride in playing games without said UI elements looking down upon people that do saying games that have those elements are dumbed down if not saying the players themselves are dumb (or playing kids games etc.).
I get your point, but the thing is............. with modern MMOs with thousands of pointless NPCs giving you thousands of pointless quests of course you need the Quest Icon on top of their head, because NPCs became just anonymous Quest ATM machines rather than part of the world and lore you are playing.
In a game with far less quests but more challenging and meaningful, you won't need the Icons, because you will be able to even remember the name of the NPC (I am stretching it here) because that NPC fits in the world and the story perfectly.
That's one of my complaint about recent MMOs.
You don't need thousands of quests to enjoy a game, all you need is less quests that take longer to complete and at the end gives you a greater reward.
When you are immersed in a world trying to complete a meaningful and exciting quest, finding the right NPC that give it to you become part of the quest itself.
So you are right that in modern MMOs you need the frikking icon on top of NPCs head, but that doesn't have to be this way.
In an RPG the journey should be more important than the destination.
That's fine too. The journey should be important, and there should be content on the journey - not content lite.
Dev content is a very scarce resource in any MMO. Look how much money SWTOR spent trying to produce tons of content for players which they mostly blew through in several weeks and were bored. In theory it would be nice to have a constant stream of scripted high quality new content as fast a players play through which kept pace with how fast players consume it but in practice no studio can produce that. I'd say much better to let the players make their own fun and have immersion and a slower pace rather than a couple of weeks of nice content to play through followed by months of boredom and grind at endgame.
Nothing wrong with that either. It is still content, dev provided or player created (we'll go with created for the use of the thread), but there still should be something.
There is a reason why Tolkien did not go into a lot of detail in the 50 years between when Bilbo gave Frodo the ring and when Gandalf came back to tell him what ring it was. It's the same reason why in most scenes in the book and most scenes in the movies there was something occurring.
They did not walk just for the sake of walking, nor did they show or talk about all the walking they did. They showed and talked about walking where something interesting happened. That's the way it should be in the MMO"s.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
There is an element to that, but more than anything, my intention was to comment on what some people view as content, but is actually the opposite: lack of content.
For example, looking for an important NPC is likely not very hard, so an icon above it saves time to find it. Still some people take odd pride in playing games without said UI elements looking down upon people that do saying games that have those elements are dumbed down if not saying the players themselves are dumb (or playing kids games etc.).
I get your point, but the thing is............. with modern MMOs with thousands of pointless NPCs giving you thousands of pointless quests of course you need the Quest Icon on top of their head, because NPCs became just anonymous Quest ATM machines rather than part of the world and lore you are playing.
In a game with far less quests but more challenging and meaningful, you won't need the Icons, because you will be able to even remember the name of the NPC (I am stretching it here) because that NPC fits in the world and the story perfectly.
That's one of my complaint about recent MMOs.
You don't need thousands of quests to enjoy a game, all you need is less quests that take longer to complete and at the end gives you a greater reward.
When you are immersed in a world trying to complete a meaningful and exciting quest, finding the right NPC that give it to you become part of the quest itself.
So you are right that in modern MMOs you need the frikking icon on top of NPCs head, but that doesn't have to be this way.
It's all about how a game is designed.
I would say the exact opposite.
With zillions of quests chances are that everyone I talk to will have a quest therefore I don't need the icons.
If quests are very few then most people will not have one, it would be nice to know which ones do have them instead of running to every npc to see what they do.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
With the methods I outlined in my original post, the little content the game might have gets buried beneath layers upon layers of menial, mundane tasks which have no other function that to keep the player occupied (or to hold up immersion). You might set out to kill a dragon, but first you must gather/buy the necessary provisions, spend time looking for the right group, get organized, set on your way, travel to the spot... and soon you might notice the actual content, killing a dragon, takes a backseat for all the other stuff.
I get that some of these activities can be immersive, and the whole game might be about them. Some such games are very fun. But there should be nothing wrong about making the game more about the content itself!
Trying to achieve good make-believe is fine, but the idea that the game is somehow more demanding or challenging, deeper, or has more content because of such activities and mechanics is bogus. It doesn't take skill to play such games, only time. You space out the real content, fill the game with activities and mechanics I mentioned, and it will last longer. It is a no-brainer. At heart, they are the same sort of hamster-wheels as any other game.
The satisfaction and enjoyment of content consumption rates can differ based on personal preference. I won't argue that a game that has less content actually has more content. The content may feel like it is more because of the consumption rate. Just like game with a HUGE amount of content that can feel like less because it is generally skipped, nerfed, ignored as folks race to max level.
I am confused a bit about your observation that the extra stuff that supports immersion doesn't make the game more demanding ,challenging, or deeper. Taking "Skill" to play is much too subjective to argue but lets look at the other Adjectives you used:
The game is more Demanding because.... well the game places additional demands on you. Searching for NPCs, gathering, waiting while fishing,etc...
The game is more Challenging because... it requires more effort and time to play, paying attention, searching for stuff, gathering stuff, organizing a group,etc...
The game is deeper because... it have more Immersive features that require the player think, search, gather, farm, buy, fish, etc...
I know some times folks can get a bitch preachy on the forums and imply that playing an MMO is some genius activity or something that requires back breaking strength but in the end it is a game. .. A Game that many of us prefer to be Demanding, Challenging and Deeper than the majority of Lobby based MMOs where you "Speed RUN", repeatable Dungeons in under 12 minutes with such little involvement that you can be successful even when not paying attention.
The truth is in the middle of course, but developers didn't seems to grasp the fact that radical design, either being too hardcore or being too shallow is not the solution of the MMO identity crysis.
I see.
See what?
That's my opinion based on observation........... not the absolute truth.
Just look around you and tell me which Hardcore or Ultra Casual games have been a huge success?
If you find any then you might have a point.
Then try to find a game that is a blend of Hardcore and Casual elements (I don't see many around)
These are facts, but what I said after is just my opinion.
I am not saying anything silly..............just observing and coming to a conclusion (my conclusion......not the absolute truth)
Also making comment about previous posts without quoting it doesn't make it easy for a smooth discussion. Just saying.
If it's an opinion you probably shouldn't say things like, "the fact that" if it isn't a fact.
This was in reference to you saying that developers don't seem to get that fact. One it isn't a fact - there have been many games that are extreme casual and pretty darn successful. Of course we also need to recognize that the extreme ends are completely subjective.
2. Is your reference that developers don't seem to get it. If it's not a fact, then there is nothing for them to get. What you mean is they don't necessarily agree with you.
WoW when it came out was considered ultra casual - huge success. Not it is even more casual, and people say vanilla was hardcore - a sign of subjectivity.
WoW is still today of course a huge success and still very casual.
Non MMO games there are many huge successes - Farmville, angry birds...
I don't think there have been any hugely successful extreme hard games, or really successful ones at all.
Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is bad.
The satisfaction and enjoyment of content consumption rates can differ based on personal preference. I won't argue that a game that has less content actually has more content. The content may feel like it is more because of the consumption rate. Just like game with a HUGE amount of content that can feel like less because it is generally skipped, nerfed, ignored as folks race to max level.
I am confused a bit about your observation that the extra stuff that supports immersion doesn't make the game more demanding ,challenging, or deeper. Taking "Skill" to play is much too subjective to argue but lets look at the other Adjectives you used:
The game is more Demanding because.... well the game places additional demands on you. Searching for NPCs, gathering, waiting while fishing,etc...
The game is more Challenging because... it requires more effort and time to play, paying attention, searching for stuff, gathering stuff, organizing a group,etc...
The game is deeper because... it have more Immersive features that require the player think, search, gather, farm, buy, fish, etc...
I know some times folks can get a bitch preachy on the forums and imply that playing an MMO is some genius activity or something that requires back breaking strength but in the end it is a game. .. A Game that many of us prefer to be Demanding, Challenging and Deeper than the majority of Lobby based MMOs where you "Speed RUN", repeatable Dungeons in under 12 minutes with such little involvement that you can be successful even when not paying attention.
The things you suggest that are demanding are only demanding in a trivial way. It is not really challenging either as it doesn't require much skill. Neither does it make the game any deeper.
If I want to make a phone call with my smart phone, it had better be simple and straightforward because I am not in it to fiddle around with the phone. Similarly, in a MMORPG, I might be in it to see and slay the dragon and not to shuffle around inventories, organizing a group for hours remembering to do this and that every few minutes like you're playing whack-a-mole. These things are not hard to do. And if you don't find them fun, they are merely checklists and chores to be completed before you get to fight the dragon. They are an obstruction. A time waster. Not content.
If you have played Sims you must know that playing whack-a-mole on your virtual character's needs doesn't make for very deep gameplay. Sims is a virtual dollhouse, and yes, some MMORPGs try to be more make-believe than game, but that does not necessarily add depth.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
It all depends on what type of MMO are you trying to produce. Is it a lobby arcade action MMO (Vindictus) or is it a crafting sandbox (EQNL)? Putting a large open world in Vindictus would detract from the lobby experience and on a technical standpoint some sacrifices would have to be made to accomplish the open world implementation.
The amount of content in a game is only tangentially related to the amount of time to level up.
You can have a game with more content than any other game in existence and still level up in a few weeks.
You can also have a game with almost no content that could take years.
I think most of the MMO's today have more content that most of the MMO's in the past - but they still level up quick.
You can level up more quickly in MMOs with arguably more content, because the content itself is little more than mindlessly chasing !'s. You can teleport just about everywhere from day 1 in many newer MMOs. There's no fear of the game world or what in habits it, because if you get aggro, chances are you'll be able to outrun the mob's ever shorter "leash", and if you die... no big deal, you'll just respawn and continue on your way. In some games, like WoW, dying has been considered a convenient means of getting around; graveyard hopping.
Leveling is ultra-fast, rewards are all but handed out for minimal effort, most content can be ignored (and is, more on this below)... Newer MMOs aren't designed as long-term hobbies anymore. They're designed for "get it over with quick" affairs; single-player jaunts with multi-player features tacked on.
As far as content being ignored, that's an issue that lies with the players, not the developers. Developers create hours upon hours worth of content... real content, not just "time sinks". Players, inevitably, immediately look for the most "optimal" and "efficient" way through it, which always involves bypassing as much of it as they can. So really, the argument for being "content lite" is a really weak one that dies as soon as it hits the playerbase. Even if the developer doesn't make the MMO content-lite, the players for damn sure will.
Of course, they'll still blame the developers when they've raced to the end in 2 weeks, and are wondering why they're bored. Most players (it seems) have no concept of how their own choices affect their experience. It's "obviously" always someone else's fault (those "clueless devs who don't know how to make a MMO") when they're not having fun.
Of course, they'll still blame the developers when they've raced to the end in 2 weeks, and are wondering why they're bored. Most players (it seems) have no concept of how their own choices affect their experience. It's "obviously" always someone else's fault (those "clueless devs who don't know how to make a MMO") when they're not having fun.
No. The players are correct to blame the devs if they make a game which can be easily rushed through in two weeks. The players are just enjoying the game and playing it a lot which is presumably what a developer wants. Devs have all kinds of tools at their disposal to slow down player content consumption if it is too fast. If they choose not to use any of them and people get bored of their game in a couple of weeks it is totally their fault.
Originally posted by Quirhid It is easy! Just follow the steps below: [*] Don't spend any time on tutorials and documentation: Figuring out the game serves as "content". [*] Sparse everything apart so that traveling serves as "content". [*] Don't include quests; you don't want to pay for writers. Fill the world with mobs, but make the drop rates and rewards low so that people will continue to grind them for as long as possible. Include many trivial but mandatory (or strongly encouraged) attrition mechanics such as eating, drinking and long term buffs. Ensuring their supply will keep players busy when they are not grinding... or traveling. Make everything as difficult and as high maintenance as possible: Nothing should be easy, and nothing should be automatic so the players have to be glued on the keyboard in order to make something happen. If you want to go somewhere, you have to stay there for the whole 20 minutes pressing "W"-key and following the road. It is "content" after all. Keep the respawn rates for bosses low, so that waiting for them will serve as "content". Same applies for fishing. I think it goes without saying that the preferred payment model would be subscription.Can you come up with more? (And if you haven't figured it out. The above is criticism.)
Epicness approved.
Sadly, but not suprisingly, most people did not get your point...
Nothing wrong with that either. It is still content, dev provided or player created (we'll go with created for the use of the thread), but there still should be something.
There is a reason why Tolkien did not go into a lot of detail in the 50 years between when Bilbo gave Frodo the ring and when Gandalf came back to tell him what ring it was. It's the same reason why in most scenes in the book and most scenes in the movies there was something occurring.
They did not walk just for the sake of walking, nor did they show or talk about all the walking they did. They showed and talked about walking where something interesting happened. That's the way it should be in the MMO"s.
That's a good point but MMOs really need some kind of filler content.. You write a book, put what's important in the story and then you are finished. Maybe you write a sequel in a two or three years. So it's a lot easier to just focus on meaningful stuff. Maybe when computers are capable of telling good stories with procedural content we can have MMOs that really are like never ending books where everything is meaningful but in the meantime I think you either have to slow things down in the leveling process, have a sandbox where the players are the content or have long endgame grind for gear.
Originally posted by Quirhid It is easy! Just follow the steps below: [*] Don't spend any time on tutorials and documentation: Figuring out the game serves as "content". [*] Sparse everything apart so that traveling serves as "content". [*] Don't include quests; you don't want to pay for writers. Fill the world with mobs, but make the drop rates and rewards low so that people will continue to grind them for as long as possible. Include many trivial but mandatory (or strongly encouraged) attrition mechanics such as eating, drinking and long term buffs. Ensuring their supply will keep players busy when they are not grinding... or traveling. Make everything as difficult and as high maintenance as possible: Nothing should be easy, and nothing should be automatic so the players have to be glued on the keyboard in order to make something happen. If you want to go somewhere, you have to stay there for the whole 20 minutes pressing "W"-key and following the road. It is "content" after all. Keep the respawn rates for bosses low, so that waiting for them will serve as "content". Same applies for fishing. I think it goes without saying that the preferred payment model would be subscription.Can you come up with more?
(And if you haven't figured it out. The above is criticism.)
Epicness approved.
Sadly, but not suprisingly, most people did not get your point...
Comments
i do not think anyone ever have said that mmo's of the past have more content.
But because of said mechanics it sure feels that way. it sounds a whole lot better then being at the endgame within 2 weeks only to scratch your head and realize that its the same damn game as all the others out there.
Many many many people here have said that old MMO's have more content.
The time to reach end-game, and the amount of content are two different issues, that are only tangentially related.
You can have a ton of content that takes years to level up, or very little content that you can level up in in a few weeks.
I guess this guy would've seriously made LOTR like this
:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yqVD0swvWU
In an RPG the journey should be more important than the destination.
See what?
That's my opinion based on observation........... not the absolute truth.
Just look around you and tell me which Hardcore or Ultra Casual games have been a huge success?
If you find any then you might have a point.
Then try to find a game that is a blend of Hardcore and Casual elements (I don't see many around)
These are facts, but what I said after is just my opinion.
I am not saying anything silly..............just observing and coming to a conclusion (my conclusion......not the absolute truth)
Also making comment about previous posts without quoting it doesn't make it easy for a smooth discussion. Just saying.
That's fine too. The journey should be important, and there should be content on the journey - not content lite.
You mean we have very little content wich takes us years to level up and we have alot of content wich takes you a few weeks too level up.
thats pretty wrong no matter how you look at it.
I meant exactly what I said.
The amount of content in a game is only tangentially related to the amount of time to level up.
You can have a game with more content than any other game in existence and still level up in a few weeks.
You can also have a game with almost no content that could take years.
I think most of the MMO's today have more content that most of the MMO's in the past - but they still level up quick.
don't you think thats wrong? your last sentence. shouldn't they have that amount of content but take a year to level up making the game and time invested into a character actually have some kind of meaning.
and with that bringing in social activities wich makes the game something more then just a mere game.
Dev content is a very scarce resource in any MMO. Look how much money SWTOR spent trying to produce tons of content for players which they mostly blew through in several weeks and were bored. In theory it would be nice to have a constant stream of scripted high quality new content as fast a players play through which kept pace with how fast players consume it but in practice no studio can produce that. I'd say much better to let the players make their own fun and have immersion and a slower pace rather than a couple of weeks of nice content to play through followed by months of boredom and grind at endgame.
No. It's not wrong.
Going to go into a long winded real life statement here.
Early in my career I was a personal trainer, then finished my schooling and became a Kin and then a physio. In my trainer years I would frequently tell people that the exercise they are doing is wrong, or the way they are doing it is wrong.
15 years later I now realize I was wrong. There is very little in a the gym that people do wrong. There is a lot that is stupid, and a lot that is harmful, but very little that is wrong. Try telling the guy with 23 inch arms that the way he has been working out is wrong. He will laugh at you and he'll be right, it worked for him, it accomplished his goal, therefore it wasn't wrong, maybe just not efficient or not smart or harmfull.
The only time in fitness something is wrong is if it is not accomplishing their goal. I have seen people do really stupid things that IMO would cause further injuries however it did what they accomplished therefore it wasn't wrong, just stupid.
The same reasoning is applied to MMO's.
To me having a lot of content that takes a few weeks to get past or through seems odd. However what is the goal? If it is accomplishing the goal the developer wants than it isn't wrong, possibly misguided, possibly harmfull but not wrong.
So what is the goal?
I get your point, but the thing is............. with modern MMOs with thousands of pointless NPCs giving you thousands of pointless quests of course you need the Quest Icon on top of their head, because NPCs became just anonymous Quest ATM machines rather than part of the world and lore you are playing.
In a game with far less quests but more challenging and meaningful, you won't need the Icons, because you will be able to even remember the name of the NPC (I am stretching it here) because that NPC fits in the world and the story perfectly.
That's one of my complaint about recent MMOs.
You don't need thousands of quests to enjoy a game, all you need is less quests that take longer to complete and at the end gives you a greater reward.
When you are immersed in a world trying to complete a meaningful and exciting quest, finding the right NPC that give it to you become part of the quest itself.
So you are right that in modern MMOs you need the frikking icon on top of NPCs head, but that doesn't have to be this way.
It's all about how a game is designed.
Nothing wrong with that either. It is still content, dev provided or player created (we'll go with created for the use of the thread), but there still should be something.
There is a reason why Tolkien did not go into a lot of detail in the 50 years between when Bilbo gave Frodo the ring and when Gandalf came back to tell him what ring it was. It's the same reason why in most scenes in the book and most scenes in the movies there was something occurring.
They did not walk just for the sake of walking, nor did they show or talk about all the walking they did. They showed and talked about walking where something interesting happened. That's the way it should be in the MMO"s.
I would say the exact opposite.
With zillions of quests chances are that everyone I talk to will have a quest therefore I don't need the icons.
If quests are very few then most people will not have one, it would be nice to know which ones do have them instead of running to every npc to see what they do.
The satisfaction and enjoyment of content consumption rates can differ based on personal preference. I won't argue that a game that has less content actually has more content. The content may feel like it is more because of the consumption rate. Just like game with a HUGE amount of content that can feel like less because it is generally skipped, nerfed, ignored as folks race to max level.
I am confused a bit about your observation that the extra stuff that supports immersion doesn't make the game more demanding ,challenging, or deeper. Taking "Skill" to play is much too subjective to argue but lets look at the other Adjectives you used:
The game is more Demanding because.... well the game places additional demands on you. Searching for NPCs, gathering, waiting while fishing,etc...
The game is more Challenging because... it requires more effort and time to play, paying attention, searching for stuff, gathering stuff, organizing a group,etc...
The game is deeper because... it have more Immersive features that require the player think, search, gather, farm, buy, fish, etc...
I know some times folks can get a bitch preachy on the forums and imply that playing an MMO is some genius activity or something that requires back breaking strength but in the end it is a game. .. A Game that many of us prefer to be Demanding, Challenging and Deeper than the majority of Lobby based MMOs where you "Speed RUN", repeatable Dungeons in under 12 minutes with such little involvement that you can be successful even when not paying attention.
If it's an opinion you probably shouldn't say things like, "the fact that" if it isn't a fact.
This was in reference to you saying that developers don't seem to get that fact. One it isn't a fact - there have been many games that are extreme casual and pretty darn successful. Of course we also need to recognize that the extreme ends are completely subjective.
2. Is your reference that developers don't seem to get it. If it's not a fact, then there is nothing for them to get. What you mean is they don't necessarily agree with you.
WoW when it came out was considered ultra casual - huge success. Not it is even more casual, and people say vanilla was hardcore - a sign of subjectivity.
WoW is still today of course a huge success and still very casual.
Non MMO games there are many huge successes - Farmville, angry birds...
I don't think there have been any hugely successful extreme hard games, or really successful ones at all.
The things you suggest that are demanding are only demanding in a trivial way. It is not really challenging either as it doesn't require much skill. Neither does it make the game any deeper.
If I want to make a phone call with my smart phone, it had better be simple and straightforward because I am not in it to fiddle around with the phone. Similarly, in a MMORPG, I might be in it to see and slay the dragon and not to shuffle around inventories, organizing a group for hours remembering to do this and that every few minutes like you're playing whack-a-mole. These things are not hard to do. And if you don't find them fun, they are merely checklists and chores to be completed before you get to fight the dragon. They are an obstruction. A time waster. Not content.
If you have played Sims you must know that playing whack-a-mole on your virtual character's needs doesn't make for very deep gameplay. Sims is a virtual dollhouse, and yes, some MMORPGs try to be more make-believe than game, but that does not necessarily add depth.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
You made me smile.
-Azure Prower
http://www.youtube.com/AzurePrower
op, that's firefall!!!
still having fun with it though, just casually
You can level up more quickly in MMOs with arguably more content, because the content itself is little more than mindlessly chasing !'s. You can teleport just about everywhere from day 1 in many newer MMOs. There's no fear of the game world or what in habits it, because if you get aggro, chances are you'll be able to outrun the mob's ever shorter "leash", and if you die... no big deal, you'll just respawn and continue on your way. In some games, like WoW, dying has been considered a convenient means of getting around; graveyard hopping.
Leveling is ultra-fast, rewards are all but handed out for minimal effort, most content can be ignored (and is, more on this below)... Newer MMOs aren't designed as long-term hobbies anymore. They're designed for "get it over with quick" affairs; single-player jaunts with multi-player features tacked on.
As far as content being ignored, that's an issue that lies with the players, not the developers. Developers create hours upon hours worth of content... real content, not just "time sinks". Players, inevitably, immediately look for the most "optimal" and "efficient" way through it, which always involves bypassing as much of it as they can. So really, the argument for being "content lite" is a really weak one that dies as soon as it hits the playerbase. Even if the developer doesn't make the MMO content-lite, the players for damn sure will.
Of course, they'll still blame the developers when they've raced to the end in 2 weeks, and are wondering why they're bored. Most players (it seems) have no concept of how their own choices affect their experience. It's "obviously" always someone else's fault (those "clueless devs who don't know how to make a MMO") when they're not having fun.
No. The players are correct to blame the devs if they make a game which can be easily rushed through in two weeks. The players are just enjoying the game and playing it a lot which is presumably what a developer wants. Devs have all kinds of tools at their disposal to slow down player content consumption if it is too fast. If they choose not to use any of them and people get bored of their game in a couple of weeks it is totally their fault.
Epicness approved.
Sadly, but not suprisingly, most people did not get your point...
That's a good point but MMOs really need some kind of filler content.. You write a book, put what's important in the story and then you are finished. Maybe you write a sequel in a two or three years. So it's a lot easier to just focus on meaningful stuff. Maybe when computers are capable of telling good stories with procedural content we can have MMOs that really are like never ending books where everything is meaningful but in the meantime I think you either have to slow things down in the leveling process, have a sandbox where the players are the content or have long endgame grind for gear.
Everyone got it, it is hardly subtle.
You misspelled sarcasm.