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Great .. more convenient and gameplay features in MMOs

13

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot

     

    That's a question of immersion, which is a tricky topic as it does not mean the same thing for all players, but I accept your point. Doing questing like The Witcher as you suggested would involve you making meaningful choices. Choices that can effect how other NPCs behave towards you. In an easymode MMO you never make a meaningful choice, because they are designed so you cannot make a choice you will regret.

    Great .. regret isn't much fun.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by LittleBoot

     

    I can't understand why players/ dev's seem so determined to turn mmo's into single player, easy-win games.  We already have single player games.  Why can't mmo's just be left as persistent, open worlds which are conducive to a social, collaborative experience?

     

    Because it sells?

    I don't play games for social and collaborative experience. Apparently devs want my time .. .for whatever reason. If they want that, make the game solo-able and convenient. Otherwise, i am out of there.

    And oh ... SP games are great .. i only play some MMOs because they try to be more like SP games.

     

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    Great .. regret isn't much fun.

     

    Regret can actually be very fun if it comes from a meaningful choice. Sometimes I've put quite a lot of thought into choices in games like TW 1&2 or DA:O or strategy games. Of course as they say  even  the best laid plans often go awry but it can be fun if the the developer tricked me in a particularly inventive way which also seems realistic (you do the obvious thing to try to help but actually end up just making things worse - happens a lot in real life too)   or if in a strategy game I learn from the mistake.

     

    Do you really like to play games where you always win easily and never regret any choice you make because the right ones are all stupidly obvious? Sounds really boring to me.

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    Great .. regret isn't much fun.

     

    Regret can actually be very fun if it comes from a meaningful choice. Sometimes I've put quite a lot of thought into choices in games like TW 1&2 or DA:O or strategy games. Of course as they say  even  the best laid plans often go awry but it can be fun if the the developer tricked me in a particularly inventive way which also seems realistic (you do the obvious thing to try to help but actually end up just making things worse - happens a lot in real life too)   or if in a strategy game I learn from the mistake.

     

    Do you really like to play games where you always win easily and never regret any choice you make because the right ones are all stupidly obvious? Sounds really boring to me.

     

    Well Nari is of course going to focus in on the idea he sees regret as not being "fun". It is the straight jacket designers have put themselves in to ensure you never regret any choice which is the issue. How much gameplay are you going to sacrifice or distort to maintain that design principle? For easymode MMOs they seem prepared to sacrifice anything.

    There is a saying, "you learn from your mistakes", in terms of gameplay that makes you play better and understand more about what you are doing. That may be combat, crafting, whatever. That process has been removed from easymode MMOs. Because you can never make the wrong decision, making the right one has no value. There is no feeling of gameplay success when you work out what you need to do, or make the right choice for your avatar.

    This feeds into another design principle of the easymode MMO. 'There must be nothing for you to learn.' The game, from UI to lore must be as simple as possible. In terms of lore, this means you don't need a drop of knowledge about the lore to complete the game. Some knowledge can be assumed, you know that elves don't like orcs without playing a MMO right?

    What do the players of todays MMOs actually know about the world it is set it in? You don't need to even read a quest in the latest ones like GW2, its a blur of one combat to the next. That's not to say it is not rich in lore, it has just been designed so you skate over it in play.

     

  • LittleBootLittleBoot roystonPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by LittleBoot

     

    I can't understand why players/ dev's seem so determined to turn mmo's into single player, easy-win games.  We already have single player games.  Why can't mmo's just be left as persistent, open worlds which are conducive to a social, collaborative experience?

     

    Because it sells?

    I don't play games for social and collaborative experience. Apparently devs want my time .. .for whatever reason. If they want that, make the game solo-able and convenient. Otherwise, i am out of there.

    And oh ... SP games are great .. i only play some MMOs because they try to be more like SP games.

     

    The option to solo certainly sells, and it should remain an option.  But, most recent mmo's also advertise heavily on grouping/ collaborative play.  Look at the grouping system or WvW in GW2, they were the major features pushed forward by the dev's.  

    The problem comes when in reality these features achieve the exact opposite of  what was intended and reduce the social aspect of an mmo.  In fact there were many ideas implemented in GW2 which on paper seem great, but when they are all brought together manage to synthesise into one giant construct of actual turd.  A great shit mountain of crapness.  I'm glad someone did the experiment though.  

  • VincerKadenVincerKaden Edison, NJPosts: 457Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    I just started to play some GW2. There are good convenient and gamaplay features that i would like to see in more MMOs.

    1) It can practically be played as a solo ARPGs.

    2) Combat is pretty good .. not as good as D3, but better than most other games.

    3) Way-point is way more convenient than flight points ... you can port to most places after you visit them once. No more wasting time staring at the screen while flying to the flight point. Also it is great to combine this with spawn point .. so there is no need for a separate grave yard, or corpse running.

    4) Auto-group .. you don't even need to hit a LFD button to group for a quest .. even more convenient than D3 (which you have to select some menu to join a group). And obviously you don't have to say a word if you don't want to.

    5) Crafting is straightly optional. If you just want to kill stuff, and ignore crafting, you can. However, i still think that Marvel Heroes have better crafting .. since it is even simpler, and more useful (upgrade items instead of making junk).

    6) The core of gameplay .. combat challenge is reasonable. It is not as good as D3 with a difficulty slider, but you can go to any area, and adjust difficulty accordingly.

    7) Auto-questing .. no need to even talk to NPCs to get quests. You also have a choice of what to do (if you don't want to pick up stuff, just keep killing).

    8) The instanced personal quest-line is almost as well done as STO with VO and events ... it would be better if they have more scripted content though.

    (i miss these until it was pointed out to me)

    9) Auto transfer all the craft stuff to "bank" (a separate one from the real bank).

    10) Access of AH anywhere, except .. you have to go to the trader to pick stuff up .. it would be better if you can just get it anywhere in game.

    11) Auto-sell all the crap. Better if you can have a option of what to auto-sell.

    If that list is how MMOs continued to evolve, we'd end up with Ms. Pac-Man. "Just keep collecting points until you're dead."

    At least in Ms. Pac-Man when you died too many times you'd have to start all over again. MMOs are getting easier every year.

    image

  • CarnicideCarnicide mount dora, FLPosts: 221Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    There is none. I usually don't play with others. And when i do, i treat them as NPCs.

    Then why play MMO.......rpgs in the first place? If you want to play alone there are a ton of single player games out there that do the RPG element better. Maybe you should try Skyrim, it seems like it's the only one that fits all of your standards.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    Great .. regret isn't much fun.

     

    Regret can actually be very fun if it comes from a meaningful choice. Sometimes I've put quite a lot of thought into choices in games like TW 1&2 or DA:O or strategy games. Of course as they say  even  the best laid plans often go awry but it can be fun if the the developer tricked me in a particularly inventive way which also seems realistic (you do the obvious thing to try to help but actually end up just making things worse - happens a lot in real life too)   or if in a strategy game I learn from the mistake.

     

    Do you really like to play games where you always win easily and never regret any choice you make because the right ones are all stupidly obvious? Sounds really boring to me.

     

    You are confused between challenge and regret.

    D3 is a challenging game. There is no decision you can make that you cannot undone and have regret.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Carnicide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    There is none. I usually don't play with others. And when i do, i treat them as NPCs.

    Then why play MMO.......rpgs in the first place? If you want to play alone there are a ton of single player games out there that do the RPG element better. Maybe you should try Skyrim, it seems like it's the only one that fits all of your standards.

    SKYRIM ... too much walking. Of course, i have tried SKYRIM. Don't tell me you are under the illusion that i only (or even mainly) play MMOs.

    In fact, i play way more SP games than MMOs. The only reason i play *some* MMO is that they are good enough SP games, and have unique IP that i cannot get anywhere else.

     

  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,758Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Carnicide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    There is none. I usually don't play with others. And when i do, i treat them as NPCs.

    Then why play MMO.......rpgs in the first place? If you want to play alone there are a ton of single player games out there that do the RPG element better. Maybe you should try Skyrim, it seems like it's the only one that fits all of your standards.

    SKYRIM ... too much walking. Of course, i have tried SKYRIM. Don't tell me you are under the illusion that i only (or even mainly) play MMOs.

    In fact, i play way more SP games than MMOs. The only reason i play *some* MMO is that they are good enough SP games, and have unique IP that i cannot get anywhere else.

     

    You can get a mount in Skyrim Nari, don't tell me you got so fed up at having to walk that you gave up before you found a mount? And you can use the map to teleport to areas you have been before. There is a joy to walking around in what was a beautifully realised world with graphics to take your breath away. And the game part was great too.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    The OP would actually prefer to play single-player games, but those are seldom F2P. 

     

    So his crusade is simply motivated by the desire to promote the creation of more F2P single-player games (modern MMO's) for his personal enjoyment... image

  • FappuccinoFappuccino ErgensPosts: 159Member
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Carnicide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    There is none. I usually don't play with others. And when i do, i treat them as NPCs.

    Then why play MMO.......rpgs in the first place? If you want to play alone there are a ton of single player games out there that do the RPG element better. Maybe you should try Skyrim, it seems like it's the only one that fits all of your standards.

    SKYRIM ... too much walking. Of course, i have tried SKYRIM. Don't tell me you are under the illusion that i only (or even mainly) play MMOs.

    In fact, i play way more SP games than MMOs. The only reason i play *some* MMO is that they are good enough SP games, and have unique IP that i cannot get anywhere else.

     

    Skyrim is just as badly streamlined as GW2 so I don't see how you would have an issue with that. Once you've unlocked a new place you can teleport there and everywhere else you've been to to your heart's content.

    I walk / mount everywhere in Skyrim. I make it a point not to fast travel. Thing is that at least in this single player title I know the other NPCs (you might as well call them players) are not fast travelling while I'm not.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Carnicide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    There is none. I usually don't play with others. And when i do, i treat them as NPCs.

    Then why play MMO.......rpgs in the first place? If you want to play alone there are a ton of single player games out there that do the RPG element better. Maybe you should try Skyrim, it seems like it's the only one that fits all of your standards.

    SKYRIM ... too much walking. Of course, i have tried SKYRIM. Don't tell me you are under the illusion that i only (or even mainly) play MMOs.

    In fact, i play way more SP games than MMOs. The only reason i play *some* MMO is that they are good enough SP games, and have unique IP that i cannot get anywhere else.

     

    You can get a mount in Skyrim Nari, don't tell me you got so fed up at having to walk that you gave up before you found a mount? And you can use the map to teleport to areas you have been before. There is a joy to walking around in what was a beautifully realised world with graphics to take your breath away. And the game part was great too.

    Of course i know there is a mount, and you can teleport. The problem is that it takes too long to get to anything interesting (for the unexplored part) and terrain is uninteresting.

    GW2 is a lot more concentrated with stuff. If i want to talk in a realistic place, I go to a national park. That is not why i play video games.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by SpottyGekko

    The OP would actually prefer to play single-player games, but those are seldom F2P. 

     

    So his crusade is simply motivated by the desire to promote the creation of more F2P single-player games (modern MMO's) for his personal enjoyment... image

    I play lots of SP games. Don't confuse between my unwilling to pay for MMOs (since there are lots of free alternatives) as unwillingness to pay for SP games.

    And BTW, there are tons of F2P iOS SP games too and i also play those. But there is no reason i can't pay for and play Dishonored when i like that game, just because i don't pay for MMOs.

     

  • CarnicideCarnicide mount dora, FLPosts: 221Member Common
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
     

    SKYRIM ... too much walking. Of course, i have tried SKYRIM. Don't tell me you are under the illusion that i only (or even mainly) play MMOs.

    There's fast travel in Skyrim, carriages, and Horse riding.

    In fact, i play way more SP games than MMOs. The only reason i play *some* MMO is that they are good enough SP games, and have unique IP that i cannot get anywhere else.

     I've played a ton of MMO's and the only 2 I can think of that make a good SP experience is The ld republic and FFXI RR

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Carnicide

    In fact, i play way more SP games than MMOs. The only reason i play *some* MMO is that they are good enough SP games, and have unique IP that i cannot get anywhere else.

     I've played a ton of MMO's and the only 2 I can think of that make a good SP experience is The ld republic and FFXI RR

     

    Obviously "good SP experience" is subject. Marvel Heroes, and STO are two MMO which i like playing as SP games.

    In fact, STO is not only a *good* (for me) choice, but the ONLY choice if i want to play a TNG era Star Trek RPG.

  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,837Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Carnicide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    There is none. I usually don't play with others. And when i do, i treat them as NPCs.

    Then why play MMO.......rpgs in the first place? If you want to play alone there are a ton of single player games out there that do the RPG element better. Maybe you should try Skyrim, it seems like it's the only one that fits all of your standards.

    SKYRIM ... too much walking. Of course, i have tried SKYRIM. Don't tell me you are under the illusion that i only (or even mainly) play MMOs.

    In fact, i play way more SP games than MMOs. The only reason i play *some* MMO is that they are good enough SP games, and have unique IP that i cannot get anywhere else.

     

    You can get a mount in Skyrim Nari, don't tell me you got so fed up at having to walk that you gave up before you found a mount? And you can use the map to teleport to areas you have been before. There is a joy to walking around in what was a beautifully realised world with graphics to take your breath away. And the game part was great too.

    It's pretty sad when people complain they have to walk to much in Skyrim...  There is a horse/buggy that will take you around to any town.  Once you have visited a town or dungeon you can fast travel to that location.  I found that the horse/cart/fast travel detracted a lot from the game.  There were a lot of random encounters that you will never see because it's easier to just follow the quest and fast travel around.  I'd rather they didn't have fast travel at all.  It was also a little disappointing for them to remove the skills for running/walking faster and jumping higher.  It was still a great game though.  It has a lot of flaws, but perhaps that's part of why it's fun.

  • goboygogoboygo Posts: 790Member Uncommon
    You don't want an MMO you want a single player game with a "multi player" option.   Its okay though lots of people like it like that these days.
    "Fighting Internet stupidity one post at at time"
  • Pratt2112Pratt2112 Posts: 1,536Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

     

    5) Crafting is straightly optional. If you just want to kill stuff, and ignore crafting, you can. However, i still think that Marvel Heroes have better crafting .. since it is even simpler, and more useful (upgrade items instead of making junk).

    I think GW2 has one of the best implementations of craft leveling I've seen, as absolutely nothing you make is completely useless - it can even be beneficial.

    For example,

    I went through and crafted a number of items in the 'Invention' window, to open up those recipes. Those items I'm not actually going to use myself, so I salvage them and get back some of the materials required to make them and/or a 'luck essence'. Luck affects your 'Magic Find' rating (very Diablo-esque, coincidentally), which in turn means you have a better chance at getting rarer drops.... which can be further sold, or salvaged as well.. to get more materials and/or luck essences.

    The system is quite circular and actually supports and builds off itself. I think that was some very clever thinking on ANet's part. Again, nothing you craft is truly "useless". 

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Flyte27
    Originally posted by Scot
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    Originally posted by Carnicide
    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    There is none. I usually don't play with others. And when i do, i treat them as NPCs.

    Then why play MMO.......rpgs in the first place? If you want to play alone there are a ton of single player games out there that do the RPG element better. Maybe you should try Skyrim, it seems like it's the only one that fits all of your standards.

    SKYRIM ... too much walking. Of course, i have tried SKYRIM. Don't tell me you are under the illusion that i only (or even mainly) play MMOs.

    In fact, i play way more SP games than MMOs. The only reason i play *some* MMO is that they are good enough SP games, and have unique IP that i cannot get anywhere else.

     

    You can get a mount in Skyrim Nari, don't tell me you got so fed up at having to walk that you gave up before you found a mount? And you can use the map to teleport to areas you have been before. There is a joy to walking around in what was a beautifully realised world with graphics to take your breath away. And the game part was great too.

    It's pretty sad when people complain they have to walk to much in Skyrim...  There is a horse/buggy that will take you around to any town.  Once you have visited a town or dungeon you can fast travel to that location.  I found that the horse/cart/fast travel detracted a lot from the game.  There were a lot of random encounters that you will never see because it's easier to just follow the quest and fast travel around.  I'd rather they didn't have fast travel at all.  It was also a little disappointing for them to remove the skills for running/walking faster and jumping higher.  It was still a great game though.  It has a lot of flaws, but perhaps that's part of why it's fun.

    Why is it sad? People just like different stuff. You don't see me respond emotionally when someone complains about The Avenger (which i think is the best super hero/action movie out there).

    The horse/buggy is just too slow, and there is too much empty space between interesting stuff. I am play games to walk around pretty scenary.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by goboygo
    You don't want an MMO you want a single player game with a "multi player" option.   Its okay though lots of people like it like that these days.

    You miss the point, which i have expressed many times.

    I only play some MMOs because precisely they have become SP games with a multiplayer option. Don't tell me you think i do it for the "community" or i like "old school" MMOs (which i played, and rejected).

     

  • PurutzilPurutzil East Stroudsburg, PAPosts: 2,924Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    2) Combat is pretty good .. not as good as D3, but better than most other games.

    I'm sorry... I could address the issues with this post but this... I... I don't know if I should laugh hysterically at this comment, be angry at it, or just stare in disbelief.

     

    Don't get me wrong, i love ARPGs, but that combat in those games aren't really that 'great', they are very simplistic. D3 in particular is quite weak for an ARPG in most areas minus Polish which I'll admit its one of the best but... GW2? Really? Better then most games? D3 As an example as a better system?

     

    I'm sorry, I really am but... I just can't get over that statement. Op.... just take a minute, really think about things... or if that still remains, i want you to actually play other games since if you feel those are two great Combat systems in a Game (one of which isn't an MMO) you really need to go visit and try out some other games to get a taste. You will find there are far better choices out there in both genres. 

     

    As for the other 'things' (which I feel some are a bit out of wack) keep in mind heavily making a game casual or doing things like making 'vendors everywhere' are huge immersion breakers and are quick to detract from being absorbed and content within the game. 

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    I can't wait until games complete the quests for us, too.
  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Purutzil

    Don't get me wrong, i love ARPGs, but that combat in those games aren't really that 'great', they are very simplistic. D3 in particular is quite weak for an ARPG in most areas minus Polish which I'll admit its one of the best but... GW2? Really? Better then most games? D3 As an example as a better system?

     

    Really? Just look at youtube and how many guides & ways to play D3.

    Its combat is much better than PoE, TL2, and people put in much more time in D3 than those games. You don't like it does not mean others don't.

     

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Holophonist
    I can't wait until games complete the quests for us, too.

    You get your wishes! GW2 already did. You just did to kill stuff, and quests are automatically completed. You don't need to go "pick them up" either.

    It is a good design. No one (or very few) read the quest text anyway .. so it is cut out.

     

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