1. they target a younger -future- generation, not the generation which usually lasts untill they have a serious relationship+job which makes them quit.
2. younger people are very prone to influence so it is much easier to draw money from those children and through those children get access to their parents' wallets.
I agree. Although I don't see the kids leaving minecraft to play progression quest.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Originally posted by Muke "Why does every MMO try and hold my hand as if I were a child?" Easy: they target children. 1. they target a younger -future- generation, not the generation which usually lasts untill they have a serious relationship+job which makes them quit.2. younger people are very prone to influence so it is much easier to draw money from those children and through those children get access to their parents' wallets.
Targeting children? When will we get rid of this fallacy?
They are targeting working adults that dont want to spend the 2 hours a night they are able to squeeze in between work, kids, spouse and whatever else just trying to find out where to go to do a quest.
Yeah, you can blame it on kids if it makes you feel better but the average age of all people that play video games is 37.
I don't understand how some people take pride in playing games without proper tutorials. I find it odd. Do these people hate instruction manuals as well?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I don't understand how some people take pride in playing games without proper tutorials. I find it odd. Do these people hate instruction manuals as well?
What do you need instructions for?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
1. they target a younger -future- generation, not the generation which usually lasts untill they have a serious relationship+job which makes them quit.
2. younger people are very prone to influence so it is much easier to draw money from those children and through those children get access to their parents' wallets.
Targeting children? When will we get rid of this fallacy?
They are targeting working adults that dont want to spend the 2 hours a night they are able to squeeze in between work, kids, spouse and whatever else just trying to find out where to go to do a quest.
Yeah, you can blame it on kids if it makes you feel better but the average age of all people that play video games is 37.
Hmm, why not just make a moba ?
Or better yet, admit progression is the root of the problem. Those same people can play GTA5 and have a blast just driving around. If they don't progress they don't care.
An adult with no time, doesn't make them an idiot.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Or better yet, admit progression is the root of the problem. Those same people can play GTA5 and have a blast just driving around. If they don't progress they don't care.
An adult with no time, doesn't make them an idiot.
No, but they have preference just like everyone else. And as such, progression is as addictive to them as it is for anyone else.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
I agree with the open poster. Games are too easy nowadays.
As i have said, if you choose to play the latest shiny which is more of the same then you have no one else to blame but yourselves.
Why are you not playing Age Of Wulin which has probably the best PVP since UO, Why are you not playing Wurm Online or any of the other mmo's that don't hold your hand?
Sometimes i wonder if threads like these are just attention seeking threads because their are games out there that have the type of systems the op claims to like.
Because having challenging content is only part of the equation.
You have to also enjoy and be interested in the game that content is in to begin with.
For example, I've played Wurm Online, and I really dig what they're doing there. The game itself just doesn't interest me, though.
The problem is that this tendency to dumb everything down is spreading across all games, in just about every genre. It's pervasive. So, even if you find a game that you could enjoy for its setting, story, graphics, etc. etc, chances are it's going to be dumbed down and simplified. The experience of playing it a mindless endeavor that you basically snooze through. Check out this video which is basically mocking how the FPS genre has become dumbed down just as much.
Or better yet, admit progression is the root of the problem. Those same people can play GTA5 and have a blast just driving around. If they don't progress they don't care.
An adult with no time, doesn't make them an idiot.
No, but they have preference just like everyone else. And as such, progression is as addictive to them as it is for anyone else.
So people thinking they are progressing an artificially weak char is addictive, and that's the whole game? I don't know why people make fun of mmo players.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Or better yet, admit progression is the root of the problem. Those same people can play GTA5 and have a blast just driving around. If they don't progress they don't care.
An adult with no time, doesn't make them an idiot.
No, but they have preference just like everyone else. And as such, progression is as addictive to them as it is for anyone else.
So people thinking they are progressing an artificially weak char is addictive, and that's the whole game? I don't know why people make fun of mmo players.
You can trivialize anything to make it look silly.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been-Wayne Gretzky
Originally posted by fivoroth MMOs have always been easy. If you want challenging games which require skill, tactics and/or strategy, MMOs are not for you. MMOs are just mindless grind (which virtually takes 0 skill) to collect items and increase numbers on your spreadsheet...I mean character sheet. It's like a virtual world where people grind to dress up their barbies....characters!
....says the guy who thinks WoW was the first MMO.
Says the guy who makes wild assumptions just because it's convenient for him. WoW was not the first MMO I tried. EQ was piss easy and that came before WoW. The only difficult thing about that game is being able to bear the boredom while playing. Raids are the only thing that even remotely comes to requiring any kind of skill in most MMOs if you have the time to commit and put up with 20-60+ other people.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
Originally posted by fivoroth MMOs have always been easy. If you want challenging games which require skill, tactics and/or strategy, MMOs are not for you. MMOs are just mindless grind (which virtually takes 0 skill) to collect items and increase numbers on your spreadsheet...I mean character sheet. It's like a virtual world where people grind to dress up their barbies....characters!
....says the guy who thinks WoW was the first MMO.
Says the guy who makes wild assumptions just because it's convenient for him. WoW was not the first MMO I tried. EQ was piss easy and that came before WoW. The only difficult thing about that game is being able to bear the boredom while playing. Raids are the only thing that even remotely comes to requiring any kind of skill in most MMOs if you have the time to commit and put up with 20-60+ other people.
I'd have to disagree with you. Everquest was very difficult.
There were no maps and no quests to guide you. You had to go out and find the safe places to level up. To this day if you go into one of the dungeons by yourself it's easy to get lost/killed. I was just wandering around some zones in Kunark and couldn't find the zone points. Even with the new maps they added sometimes I can't find things lol. Zones weren't lined up in level range order. You could go from a level 1-10 zone to a level 40-50 zone right next door. There were often mobs like the giants in low level areas that were much higher than the rest of the mobs and would sneak up on you while you were resting to get your health back.
The level process was a lot different. It's easier now because they increased the experience gain, removed the death penalty, and removed having to recover your items. I remember playing a Ranger when Everquest first started. The class was pretty difficult to play. Especially if you tried to solo. There were many times I would end up going backwards in progress from dying and losing experience. Basically you had to be on your toes so to speak if you wanted to progress forward. If you were playing in a group and they wiped they would pretty mad. That means you had to know how to play your role and play it well or if you soloed you had to know what mobs were possible for your class if any. Most caster oriented mobs would destroy you even if you were higher than them in level. If you play a game like WoW or other MMOs now you don't have to worry about sucking. There is nothing to lose and everyone can solo fine. That's great if you want no challenge, but not so great if you do.
Personally I find exploration to be a lot of fun and frustration is what makes achieving something feel worthwhile. If it's easy then it feels (is) hallow. I'd rather not be the best in a hard game like EQ then to be on equal terms with everyone in a game like WoW.
The problem is being too strict with the items you can use and the quests you can gain through the leveling process.
Wow did this all the time. If that quest npc would give you the silver ! quest then you might be able to have more of a challenge, and the quest reward might actually be good // gained at a time when you actually would want to use it as opposed to buying the drop from a mob 5 levels higher sold by someone else.
By simply allowing all quests to be gained 3 levels earlier in a game like WoW you can change the whole dynamic.
I don't understand how some people take pride in playing games without proper tutorials. I find it odd. Do these people hate instruction manuals as well?
I would kill for an MMO that requires an instruction manual you actually have to read (well there's EVE I guess but besides that...)
The problem is being too strict with the items you can use and the quests you can gain through the leveling process.
Wow did this all the time. If that quest npc would give you the silver ! quest then you might be able to have more of a challenge, and the quest reward might actually be good // gained at a time when you actually would want to use it as opposed to buying the drop from a mob 5 levels higher sold by someone else.
By simply allowing all quests to be gained 3 levels earlier in a game like WoW you can change the whole dynamic.
I find Quests are generally pretty boring in MMORPGs. They seem great at first when compared with having no direction or motive, but in reality they are meaningless and just string you along. I doubt developers would give people quests that are higher then their level. The whole point of quests has been to string people along an easy path that anyone can follow. I doubt half the people read the quests. Most likely just click accept and follow the GPS. I can't blame then either. Having played WoW I got bored of the quest dialogue fairly quickly and there are tun's of them. There are so many quests that it's makes the quest start to feel hallow.
So people thinking they are progressing an artificially weak char is addictive, and that's the whole game? I don't know why people make fun of mmo players.
It's not just MMOs, Without some form of character progression (using "character" loosely) there is literally no point in playing most non-competitive video games. Story? Please, books and movies have way better stories than even the best game story.
Inherently fun mechanics that don't get boring after 5 minutes? These allegedly may exist but not in many games I've seen.
People generally play video games to take a weak (something) and make it into a (stronger/bigger/more badass) (something) or to compete against other people or both at the same time. That's why even primitive arcade games had scores.
I don't understand how some people take pride in playing games without proper tutorials. I find it odd. Do these people hate instruction manuals as well?
I would kill for an MMO that requires an instruction manual you actually have to read (well there's EVE I guess but besides that...)
There is no doubt that reading an instruction manual is a good idea in most cases. It will prevent you from doing something stupid and breaking it. On the flip side you may look at things differently if you do it on your own (even if you break it). You may think of something that others did not or at least test your ability to figure things out. Imagine if there was no google or instruction manuals. You were just dumped on an island somewhere. You would have to figure out how to survive on trial/error and ability to problem solve alone. In many cases the early MMOs replicated this type of situation, but now games are more a representation of the actual time period we live in where everything has specific instructions and finding information/location is just a tablet/google away. Personally I play games to get away from the real world and all the technology. That's why I like to play high fantasy.
To me the most shameful form of handholding is today's questing system. Arrows, circles on maps etc.
Run to the big circle on your map and start killing mobs and keep an eye your tracker to see which mob is updating your quest track.
Sure we can choose to not play this way. But it's like saying everyone can have a button that kills everything around you in one hit, but you're not forced to use it. I want to be in the same universe as everyone else, and I want everyone to be in the same universe as me.
Games these days, MMO or otherwise, generally have a handholding/tutorial phase that usually occurs during the first few minutes/hours of play. They lack manuals most of the time because they try to teach you to play the game, while you're in the game. Is this a bad thing for games, or MMOs (since this site and this thread is about MMOs)?
Honestly, I don't think so. While I am the type of player that is more than willing to use outside resources to try to learn a game I'm interested in before I play it, I don't then get mad at the game for being "too easy" or being exactly what my resources told me to expect.
I realize many people come from older generations of MMOs on this site, who prefer games that were less forgiving/less handholding/taught you the hard way. I personally think I would enjoy seeing a game where you had to do some real adventuring, not just walk from point A to point B doing quest this, heart that, grab this along the way. An actual living world to explore. But the fact is, with many MMOs (and this may not be most or all, since I've only played a few, like WoW, Rift, and GW2), they wish to capture and retain the largest audience possible, and the model for doing things in the beginning is usually not very far deviated from as you progress. You may jump into some group content, or do some events that require other people and generally are more difficult for solo players, or even pvp, but overall, these games have simple and easy to grasp mechanics.
Challenge can be found in games like these, whether it be in dungeons, stronger-than-normal world bosses, and pvp, but I suspect that those who complain aren't looking for the types of challenge that these games can offer, but a more traditional type of game that isn't currently popular. I say to them, why not find someone with a vision to make such a game, and kickstart it? Who knows, you may just help to bring back the hardcore MMO experience you seek, and it may catch on and prosper with the appropriate business model.
To me the most shameful form of handholding is today's questing system. Arrows, circles on maps etc.
Run to the big circle on your map and start killing mobs and keep an eye your tracker to see which mob is updating your quest track.
Sure we can choose to not play this way. But it's like saying everyone can have a button that kills everything around you in one hit, but you're not forced to use it. I want to be in the same universe as everyone else, and I want everyone to be in the same universe as me.
One benifit of having many years of gaming experience is that I can watch about 3 mins of a game video and know which direction the developer is going with the design. Or maybe rather, if I can figure out the direction the game is going design wise in 3 mins then I am not interest in knowing more. One of the two or maybe both
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Why does every MMO try and hold my hand as if I were a child?
Because most MMO companies are hoping that you ARE, in fact, a child (or someone who has just as short of an attention span) who happens to have access to a credit card.
Imagine if a supermarket made it difficult to buy milk. You'd go elsewhere.
I'd prefer a challenge; an MMO that's relatively simple to understand but difficult to master. Something that will take me years before I know all of the systems available and what they are capable of doing.
I'm being a bit facetious about printed manuals but you gotta admit games were a lot deeper when they had printed manuals rather than 5 minute in-game tutorials.
Imagine if a supermarket made it difficult to buy milk. You'd go elsewhere.
They do.... notice it's always in the back of the store ? It's not an accident. Milk is one of the things people just run into the store to get so they put it in the back so you have to walk past everything else to get to it....hoping you'll remember you need something else.
Supermarkets are always bad examples, there is so much research and marketing that goes into their layouts, f2p cash shops are childs play in comparison.
Comments
I agree. Although I don't see the kids leaving minecraft to play progression quest.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
They are targeting working adults that dont want to spend the 2 hours a night they are able to squeeze in between work, kids, spouse and whatever else just trying to find out where to go to do a quest.
Yeah, you can blame it on kids if it makes you feel better but the average age of all people that play video games is 37.
I don't understand how some people take pride in playing games without proper tutorials. I find it odd. Do these people hate instruction manuals as well?
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
What do you need instructions for?
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
Hmm, why not just make a moba ?
Or better yet, admit progression is the root of the problem. Those same people can play GTA5 and have a blast just driving around. If they don't progress they don't care.
An adult with no time, doesn't make them an idiot.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
No, but they have preference just like everyone else. And as such, progression is as addictive to them as it is for anyone else.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Because having challenging content is only part of the equation.
You have to also enjoy and be interested in the game that content is in to begin with.
For example, I've played Wurm Online, and I really dig what they're doing there. The game itself just doesn't interest me, though.
The problem is that this tendency to dumb everything down is spreading across all games, in just about every genre. It's pervasive. So, even if you find a game that you could enjoy for its setting, story, graphics, etc. etc, chances are it's going to be dumbed down and simplified. The experience of playing it a mindless endeavor that you basically snooze through. Check out this video which is basically mocking how the FPS genre has become dumbed down just as much.
Also this..
So people thinking they are progressing an artificially weak char is addictive, and that's the whole game? I don't know why people make fun of mmo players.
"If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"
You can trivialize anything to make it look silly.
I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky
Says the guy who makes wild assumptions just because it's convenient for him. WoW was not the first MMO I tried. EQ was piss easy and that came before WoW. The only difficult thing about that game is being able to bear the boredom while playing. Raids are the only thing that even remotely comes to requiring any kind of skill in most MMOs if you have the time to commit and put up with 20-60+ other people.
Mission in life: Vanquish all MMORPG.com trolls - especially TESO, WOW and GW2 trolls.
I'd have to disagree with you. Everquest was very difficult.
There were no maps and no quests to guide you. You had to go out and find the safe places to level up. To this day if you go into one of the dungeons by yourself it's easy to get lost/killed. I was just wandering around some zones in Kunark and couldn't find the zone points. Even with the new maps they added sometimes I can't find things lol. Zones weren't lined up in level range order. You could go from a level 1-10 zone to a level 40-50 zone right next door. There were often mobs like the giants in low level areas that were much higher than the rest of the mobs and would sneak up on you while you were resting to get your health back.
The level process was a lot different. It's easier now because they increased the experience gain, removed the death penalty, and removed having to recover your items. I remember playing a Ranger when Everquest first started. The class was pretty difficult to play. Especially if you tried to solo. There were many times I would end up going backwards in progress from dying and losing experience. Basically you had to be on your toes so to speak if you wanted to progress forward. If you were playing in a group and they wiped they would pretty mad. That means you had to know how to play your role and play it well or if you soloed you had to know what mobs were possible for your class if any. Most caster oriented mobs would destroy you even if you were higher than them in level. If you play a game like WoW or other MMOs now you don't have to worry about sucking. There is nothing to lose and everyone can solo fine. That's great if you want no challenge, but not so great if you do.
Personally I find exploration to be a lot of fun and frustration is what makes achieving something feel worthwhile. If it's easy then it feels (is) hallow. I'd rather not be the best in a hard game like EQ then to be on equal terms with everyone in a game like WoW.
The problem is being too strict with the items you can use and the quests you can gain through the leveling process.
Wow did this all the time. If that quest npc would give you the silver ! quest then you might be able to have more of a challenge, and the quest reward might actually be good // gained at a time when you actually would want to use it as opposed to buying the drop from a mob 5 levels higher sold by someone else.
By simply allowing all quests to be gained 3 levels earlier in a game like WoW you can change the whole dynamic.
I would kill for an MMO that requires an instruction manual you actually have to read (well there's EVE I guess but besides that...)
I find Quests are generally pretty boring in MMORPGs. They seem great at first when compared with having no direction or motive, but in reality they are meaningless and just string you along. I doubt developers would give people quests that are higher then their level. The whole point of quests has been to string people along an easy path that anyone can follow. I doubt half the people read the quests. Most likely just click accept and follow the GPS. I can't blame then either. Having played WoW I got bored of the quest dialogue fairly quickly and there are tun's of them. There are so many quests that it's makes the quest start to feel hallow.
It's not just MMOs, Without some form of character progression (using "character" loosely) there is literally no point in playing most non-competitive video games. Story? Please, books and movies have way better stories than even the best game story.
Inherently fun mechanics that don't get boring after 5 minutes? These allegedly may exist but not in many games I've seen.
People generally play video games to take a weak (something) and make it into a (stronger/bigger/more badass) (something) or to compete against other people or both at the same time. That's why even primitive arcade games had scores.
There is no doubt that reading an instruction manual is a good idea in most cases. It will prevent you from doing something stupid and breaking it. On the flip side you may look at things differently if you do it on your own (even if you break it). You may think of something that others did not or at least test your ability to figure things out. Imagine if there was no google or instruction manuals. You were just dumped on an island somewhere. You would have to figure out how to survive on trial/error and ability to problem solve alone. In many cases the early MMOs replicated this type of situation, but now games are more a representation of the actual time period we live in where everything has specific instructions and finding information/location is just a tablet/google away. Personally I play games to get away from the real world and all the technology. That's why I like to play high fantasy.
To me the most shameful form of handholding is today's questing system. Arrows, circles on maps etc.
Run to the big circle on your map and start killing mobs and keep an eye your tracker to see which mob is updating your quest track.
Sure we can choose to not play this way. But it's like saying everyone can have a button that kills everything around you in one hit, but you're not forced to use it. I want to be in the same universe as everyone else, and I want everyone to be in the same universe as me.
Games these days, MMO or otherwise, generally have a handholding/tutorial phase that usually occurs during the first few minutes/hours of play. They lack manuals most of the time because they try to teach you to play the game, while you're in the game. Is this a bad thing for games, or MMOs (since this site and this thread is about MMOs)?
Honestly, I don't think so. While I am the type of player that is more than willing to use outside resources to try to learn a game I'm interested in before I play it, I don't then get mad at the game for being "too easy" or being exactly what my resources told me to expect.
I realize many people come from older generations of MMOs on this site, who prefer games that were less forgiving/less handholding/taught you the hard way. I personally think I would enjoy seeing a game where you had to do some real adventuring, not just walk from point A to point B doing quest this, heart that, grab this along the way. An actual living world to explore. But the fact is, with many MMOs (and this may not be most or all, since I've only played a few, like WoW, Rift, and GW2), they wish to capture and retain the largest audience possible, and the model for doing things in the beginning is usually not very far deviated from as you progress. You may jump into some group content, or do some events that require other people and generally are more difficult for solo players, or even pvp, but overall, these games have simple and easy to grasp mechanics.
Challenge can be found in games like these, whether it be in dungeons, stronger-than-normal world bosses, and pvp, but I suspect that those who complain aren't looking for the types of challenge that these games can offer, but a more traditional type of game that isn't currently popular. I say to them, why not find someone with a vision to make such a game, and kickstart it? Who knows, you may just help to bring back the hardcore MMO experience you seek, and it may catch on and prosper with the appropriate business model.
One benifit of having many years of gaming experience is that I can watch about 3 mins of a game video and know which direction the developer is going with the design. Or maybe rather, if I can figure out the direction the game is going design wise in 3 mins then I am not interest in knowing more. One of the two or maybe both
Please do not respond to me, even if I ask you a question, its rhetorical.
Please do not respond to me
Why does every MMO try and hold my hand as if I were a child?
Because most MMO companies are hoping that you ARE, in fact, a child (or someone who has just as short of an attention span) who happens to have access to a credit card.
Imagine if a supermarket made it difficult to buy milk. You'd go elsewhere.
I'd prefer a challenge; an MMO that's relatively simple to understand but difficult to master. Something that will take me years before I know all of the systems available and what they are capable of doing.
I'm being a bit facetious about printed manuals but you gotta admit games were a lot deeper when they had printed manuals rather than 5 minute in-game tutorials.
They do.... notice it's always in the back of the store ? It's not an accident. Milk is one of the things people just run into the store to get so they put it in the back so you have to walk past everything else to get to it....hoping you'll remember you need something else.
Supermarkets are always bad examples, there is so much research and marketing that goes into their layouts, f2p cash shops are childs play in comparison.