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Head count - Free or Sub game

135678

Comments

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by greenreen

    Folks, please don't argue.

    I doubt such a piece of advice will have any impact on an internet forum.

     

  • jazz.bejazz.be Sint-NiklaasPosts: 820Member Uncommon

    Now this is the kind of choice I like!

    You want it free of charge? Or do you want to pay for it :-)

    Perhaps you should give the question a little bit of context

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,149Member Uncommon

    If the sub is $15 or less a month, the extra cost means nothing to me, so I voted sub.

    I would prefer no cash shop either, or at least no way to buy anything of value in the game. You buy the game, pay a sub, and get the entire game, no questions asked.

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by greenreen

    As stated, I'm presenting information that sub preferring players exist. They aren't a figment of imagination and they don't even have to be a majority. All that matters for this particular thread is that they do exist.

     

    Has anyone ever...in any thread actually said they don't exist ? I've seen "thousands" of posts that they're not the majority but never once, that no one wants a sub game or would prefer it. Shit...most of the things we argue about revolve around sub vrs f2p.....

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by Athena_Starfire

    I much prefer to try out a game before paying any money. I don't care to pay $15 a month. If I feel the game is worth I usually indulge in the cash shop.

     

    That is the point. The worth of a game, an entertainment product, is determined by its competition. If i can get the same amount of fun (or almost) for free, why would i even pay $1 per month .. not to mention $15?

    The money would be better used funding 1/3 of my next bottle of Pinot Noir (yes, wine is also one of my hobbies), or even go to charity.

     

  • DauntisDauntis Kansas City, MOPosts: 547Member Uncommon

    Voted "Sub" , I also don't mind if they have a cash shop for pretty mounts that give money to charities and what not.

    Please explain to me again how WoW's cash shop cripples your gaming experience?

    I would like to give an opinion on this post, but if I agree I will offend people who disagree. While if I disagree my comment will be seen as inflammatory. Either way I will get banned by this site full of the most delicate flowers in online gaming. Ban people for giving honest opinions... beautiful. Unfortunately I still like the articles.

  • XAPKenXAPKen Northwest, INPosts: 4,896Member Uncommon

    No vote.

     

    What I'm playing lately isn't an MMORPG.

     


    Ken Fisher - Semi retired old fart Network Administrator, now turned Amateur Game Developer.  I don't Forum PVP.  If you feel I've attacked you, it was probably by accident.  Realm Lords 2 on MMORPG.com
  • MMOredfalconMMOredfalcon Mitchell, ONPosts: 132Member
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    What do you mean by "RL pull"?

    Personally, nothing makes me feel a "pull" more than a subscription. I feel that if I don't play as much as possible, I'll be wasting money, and that feeling is not a good one. Also, trying a sub game after a pause often requires paying one month sub, even if you only try it for an hour and see that nothing's really changed.

     

     Really? The average sub for most MMOs is around 15$/month. Goin to movies, renting movies, going out in any way shape or form for any entertainment is going to cost you way more than 15$/month. Your cable,internet, satillite, buying a new single player game is all going to cost more than 15$/month also. So really a MMO with sub is probibly about the cheapest form of entertainment around in this day n age.

    Even if you go back and have to resub...if you only play an hour, you probibly won't notice any differences in that length of time. So most people will log on several times during that month they paid for just to see if it really is worth resubbing or not.

    I don't understand all these 'OMG, no way am I paying a sub for this game no matter how great it is.' type. If you can't handle a small sub charge every month because it costs too much, then you should either

    a)find a better job

    b) find a new hobby (tho I don't know of many hobbies that will cost you less than 15$/month)

    c) or simply don't subscribe and stop complaining every MMO should be B2W or F2P. Plenty of those kinda games being made all the time.

    I'll take a sub model any day over a f2p. Even if I only have a few hours a week to play it...will still be cheap entertainment.

  • SgtPepperUKSgtPepperUK YorkPosts: 30Member Common

    Originally posted by tom_gore

    I feel that if I don't play as much as possible, I'll be wasting money, and that feeling is not a good one.

     

     

    I've never understood this line of reasoning.

     

    If you had a gym membership, which would certainly cost more than an MMO sub, would you feel the need to be there all the time? If you had a phone contract would you feel the need to be using it as much as possible?

     

    Originally posted by tom_gore

    Now that I think about it further, I would love a subscription model.

    One that is paid by the hour, not by the month.

    Maybe I need to move to China.

     

     

    Originally posted by Superman0X
    My personal favorite is pay by the minute. This is the single most fair way to do a pay to play game.This way, people who want to play 100 hours a week, can do so, and will support the game. Those of us that only have an hour to two a week, can pay for the time we spend.

     

    How much would you expect someone, realistically,  to charge for a pay-per-hour/pay-per-minute game and how long would the player have before such costs started to exceed the price of a sub? Probably not all that long.

     

    Anyway, I answered sub. Simply because with a proper sub game I can pay a fixed cost at the start of the month and that's it. I don't need to worry about incurring additional costs later or spending more than I intended.

    Think about it, nobody wants to die, there's rules to this game son, I'm justified.

  • Brabbit1987Brabbit1987 Ontario, CanadaPosts: 729Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MMOredfalcon
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    What do you mean by "RL pull"?

    Personally, nothing makes me feel a "pull" more than a subscription. I feel that if I don't play as much as possible, I'll be wasting money, and that feeling is not a good one. Also, trying a sub game after a pause often requires paying one month sub, even if you only try it for an hour and see that nothing's really changed.

     

     Really? The average sub for most MMOs is around 15$/month. Goin to movies, renting movies, going out in any way shape or form for any entertainment is going to cost you way more than 15$/month. Your cable,internet, satillite, buying a new single player game is all going to cost more than 15$/month also. So really a MMO with sub is probibly about the cheapest form of entertainment around in this day n age.

    Oh ... ya? Funny, cause last I checked I can play other games for far cheaper .. kinda funny how that works ... ya?

    We are not talking about Cable, Internet, or Satellite. They are not even good comparisons to any degree besides they share being entertainment in common. But all forms of entertainment cost different prices and do not directly reflect the other.

    As for your single player game? Correct me if I am wrong, but P2P games cost the same amount for a single player game + the $15 a month. So unless you don't know math ... you can't possibly say it cost more to play a new single player game. Also ... ever heard of Steam?

    Even if you go back and have to resub...if you only play an hour, you probibly won't notice any differences in that length of time. So most people will log on several times during that month they paid for just to see if it really is worth resubbing or not.

    I don't understand all these 'OMG, no way am I paying a sub for this game no matter how great it is.' type. If you can't handle a small sub charge every month because it costs too much, then you should either

    a)find a better job

    For the majority of people, it has nothing to do with not having a job. It has to do with worth. Comparing P2P MMO video games to other video games and you find P2P will always be more expensive.

    Again .. comparing games to games, not cable, not some other form of entertainment that has nothing to do with video games.

    b) find a new hobby (tho I don't know of many hobbies that will cost you less than 15$/month)

    Again all about worth .. not affordability. Why play 300 hours with in 2 years of a mmo for over $200 when I can play a game like Skyrim for the same amount of time and entertainment for $60?

    If we go even further you can even find the same enjoyment out of a F2P games and play entirely free for 2 years. Though most people who find a game that enjoyable to play it 2 years are willing to invest a little in the cash shop now and then. However, the point is, you are comparing oranges to apples and it simply just doesn't work that way.

    c) or simply don't subscribe and stop complaining every MMO should be B2W or F2P. Plenty of those kinda games being made all the time.

    I don't think anyone is really complaining. We are in a forum discussing a topic. Also .. the same can be said for both sides of the coin, so really this argument goes for you too.

    Also .. not subscribing actually hurts you in the long run because if the game doesn't have enough of these subs .. it will go F2P. Not a very good idea to recommend others to not sub to a game you think you will like. It's sort of counter intuitive.

    I'll take a sub model any day over a f2p. Even if I only have a few hours a week to play it...will still be cheap entertainment.

    When you compare it to other games ... you are technically wrong. Very wrong. P2P MMORPGs are the most expensive games that exist in the industry currently.

    Though I suppose you could argue F2P is .. but the consumers actually have a choice in the matter. F2P games are not out right expensive if you don't want them to be.

    Logic! :3  Makes sense doesn't it.

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,423Member Uncommon

    I will ALWAYS support sub fee first and for good reason,i don't like liars and any dev that calls their game Free is a liar.This site also seems to support such lies allowing games to post FREE when they are clearly not.

    If developers want to start posting the TRUTH and say things like PART of our game is free or 50% or anything with truthful intentions,then i am ok with that.


    Samoan Diamond

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,423Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    There are no pure subscription models anymore. At best you get sub + cash shop, such as WoW.

    For me, I prefer B2P+Cash Shop such as GW2. The devs get enough money up front so that they don't have to cripple your gaming experience from the get-go.

     

    FFXI as Square Enix has always been a straight forward developer,but often leaves players frustrated because they do not communicate well with community.I have always thought Square might go cash shop because they have had dealings with such developers but they remain true to straight forward charges.

    I am sure there might be a few others but definitely not many.all jumped on the ,misleading false advertising of FREE to play.


    Samoan Diamond

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by tom_gore

    Originally posted by Aelious
    Prefer? Sub[Until MMOs can be developed for free they come with a cost that must be paid.  I'd rather pay a set price and not feel the RL pull.
    What do you mean by "RL pull"?Personally, nothing makes me feel a "pull" more than a subscription. I feel that if I don't play as much as possible, I'll be wasting money, and that feeling is not a good one. Also, trying a sub game after a pause often requires paying one month sub, even if you only try it for an hour and see that nothing's really changed.
    I have a hard time understanding this attitude. I always find myself asking the following:
    1) How much TV do you watch if you pay for Cable or Dish TV? It, too, is a service and entertainment. How about Netflix, GameFly, and other subscrition based entertainment services, if you subscribe?

    2) How much time do you spend on the phone? Another service.

    Do you feel "compelled" to spend as much of your time as possible ("to get your money's worth") with these other services like you do with a game?

    For me, the only time I feel "compelled" to log into an MMO is when the world changes daily or I am doing the "farming" thing, where not logging in for a day or two is detrimental to my gameplay.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,899Member Uncommon
    I prefer a sub when it offers all content and the extra's for one flat fee.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • RebelScum99RebelScum99 Mesa, AZPosts: 1,090Member
    Sub game, all day.  Haven't come across a free or B2P game that's worth a damn.  
  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,544Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    There are no pure subscription models anymore. At best you get sub + cash shop, such as WoW.

    For me, I prefer B2P+Cash Shop such as GW2. The devs get enough money up front so that they don't have to cripple your gaming experience from the get-go.

     

    Final Fantasy XIV and XI are pure subscription model

  • ElRenmazuoElRenmazuo Alexandria, VAPosts: 4,544Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Wizardry
    Originally posted by tom_gore

    There are no pure subscription models anymore. At best you get sub + cash shop, such as WoW.

    For me, I prefer B2P+Cash Shop such as GW2. The devs get enough money up front so that they don't have to cripple your gaming experience from the get-go.

     

    FFXI as Square Enix has always been a straight forward developer,but often leaves players frustrated because they do not communicate well with community.I have always thought Square might go cash shop because they have had dealings with such developers but they remain true to straight forward charges.

    I am sure there might be a few others but definitely not many.all jumped on the ,misleading false advertising of FREE to play.

    Yoshida did an amazing job at communicating with the players through out the whole development of A Realm Reborn

  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAPosts: 4,163Member Uncommon

    I've played both, and honestly, I don't care what the monetization model is.

    I have no problem supporting a product that I find entertaining - be it a sub or cash shop or what ever.

  • nariusseldonnariusseldon santa clara, CAPosts: 22,441Member
    Originally posted by AlBQuirky

     


    Originally posted by tom_gore

    Originally posted by Aelious
    Prefer? Sub[

     

    Until MMOs can be developed for free they come with a cost that must be paid.  I'd rather pay a set price and not feel the RL pull.


    What do you mean by "RL pull"?

     

    Personally, nothing makes me feel a "pull" more than a subscription. I feel that if I don't play as much as possible, I'll be wasting money, and that feeling is not a good one. Also, trying a sub game after a pause often requires paying one month sub, even if you only try it for an hour and see that nothing's really changed.


    I have a hard time understanding this attitude. I always find myself asking the following:
    1) How much TV do you watch if you pay for Cable or Dish TV? It, too, is a service and entertainment. How about Netflix, GameFly, and other subscrition based entertainment services, if you subscribe?

     

    2) How much time do you spend on the phone? Another service.

    Do you feel "compelled" to spend as much of your time as possible ("to get your money's worth") with these other services like you do with a game?

    For me, the only time I feel "compelled" to log into an MMO is when the world changes daily or I am doing the "farming" thing, where not logging in for a day or two is detrimental to my gameplay.

     

    It is called the sunk cost fallacy, and it is a pretty well documented phenomenon. Here is a paper demonstrating the effect using a field experiment.

    http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/REST_a_00057

    Obviously the effects differ from person to person, but it is certainly there, on average, in the population.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon
    It is called the sunk cost fallacy, and it is a pretty well documented phenomenon. Here is a paper demonstrating the effect using a field experiment.http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/REST_a_00057Obviously the effects differ from person to person, but it is certainly there, on average, in the population.
    Thanks for the link, though it is a "pay for the report" site.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • mysticalunamysticaluna Scotia, NYPosts: 265Member Uncommon

    I don't blame Final Fantasy 11 or 14 I love this series, but I don't play either mmo because they are subscription locked. I play all of the console Final Fantasies instead.... 

    If they really want customers they should go buy to play, but then of course you wouldn't be making the massive amount of money off forcing people to pay a full price for a service that they don't have time to login and use... 

    Sure, subscriptions are cheap, but when you are paying for 3 or 4 you don't even have the time to be playing so many mmos, and it is a highly competitive market out there. How many people are paying for 3 or 4 mmos and playing at the same time? You end up trapped in a cycle of subscribe cancel resub cancel reresub cancel rereresub cancel etc. 

    Or, you like 4 dif subscription mmos, so instead of seeing your friends randomly off and on and chill and hang out with 365 days a year on a free/buy to play mmo, your friends instead only get to reach you 3 months a year, as you have to split the other 9 months on your other 3 mmos. 

    Instead, isn't it a lot better to have that flexibility to get to play with your friends and have fun on a buy to play, that you already bought? Free to jump around when you're bored, and hang out when your friends are online, not chained down to any 1 game and 1 subscription. 

    You are still able to support a game in a buy to play, you pay for expansions and you can pay for extra quest packs content for cosmetics. They don't have to give you the cosmetics in the shop when you buy them, you instead do a quest line that you have to pay for , thus make it all DLC (Downloaded Content). Want a cool awesome looking cosmetic ? Pay for the DLC and do the quests. Why don't we have Buy to Play?? 

    Every console doing DLC already has this. Final Fantasy 13-2 has this, and I wish FF 11 and FF 14 would go buy to play, and simply use the same DLC idea they used... Only this time, using a lot of pretty cosmetics/pets/mounts obtainable through the DLC Quest packs , which would still be hard challenging content, only they'd be mini expansions... 

    However, Sony did try the adventure packs and I bought all 3 of them. The idea was to serve cheap $5 entertainment.  Well, they find it easier to just sell you cosmetic mounts and pets etc now, than to put in a quest for it and make you work for it after you bought it. What a shame however, as it would be more fun buying the content than just the cosmetic item in a shop. 

  • RobokappRobokapp Dublin, OHPosts: 5,205Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by Robokapp

    Here's the problem with what you're saying.

    I was going to write about the whole "free players are not the customers but the content" but I realised...the numbers I posted are true NOW. the 5 to 3 ratio is true WITH the free players in there. If you take them away then that 6 to 1 would become 0.6 to 1. the 5 to 3 would become 50 to 3.

    F2P i not beating P2P now and removing the free players will not improve the ratio. Even without any loss from paying F2P players as result.

    these free players are adding to the revenue of F2P companies indirectly. You are absolutely correct. However my statistics were made assuming these guys are in there.

    the ratio of 5 consumers to 3 consumers is not negatively affected by the 90% non-consumers. They arent factored in here. The F2P customers that the free players keep in game however are.

    I am giving you the statistics based on best-case scenario. the detail you're pointing out is 100% true but it's already considered in those numbers.

    Here is the problem with what you're saying. Despite all the napkin math and mental gymnastics to prove your point, the bottom line is sub-free/optional (F2P/B2P) revenues overshadow sub-locked (P2P) revenues. This is especially true when you remove WoW from the equation which is important.

    It's important to remove WoW from the equation because that highlights what the rest of the P2P world and more than one game generates for revenue.

    In the end all this "on paper" stuff in the OP doesn't matter. What matters is how revenue is flowing. And to me, all that is important is that I have fun sub-optional (F2P or B2P) games to play.

    There's two problems here.

     

    1) F2P encompasses non-MMOs. P2P is strictly an MMO thing as far as I know. If the F2P data coming just from MMOs or from other sources too such as MOBAs ? What about phone/facebook games...does we add those in he MMO pool too?

     

    2) There is a problem with using averages whe we are dealing with very disproportional data. At its worse it comes down to "If i ate two chicen and you ate none, we each ate an average of one chicken". putting it simply, if we take all the revenue F2Ps make and divide it by the total players, then we'd get a number that we KNOW beyond a doubt to be at least 90% wrong.

     

    I won't go into the 'what's important to you' becaue I don't care what's important to you, but i will adress the "how revenue is flowing". How is it flowing? you have a few paying for many. So how does an MMO attract a player who will spend hundreds/month? How does an MMO maker gain the confidence that he will find sufficient such players? The gamble is extremely high. unheard-of f2p games go belly-up all the time because they failed to find their whales. MMO developers are making 2014-release MMOs in 8-bit graphics. in 2D and in 256 color palette to reduce costs.

     

    so you said what matters is how revenue is flowing. How is revenue flowing? Why does it matter? can you elaborate on this? I don't see what you're seeing. And I'd like to know your point of view. Even if it's probably wrong, I want to use your answer for future debates on the topic.

     

     

    @OP: we're not arguing, we're just expressing different viewpoints and try to deep-dive and see where the differences in thought process are.

    image

  • ComanComan Hattem, AKPosts: 2,026Member Uncommon
    My vote went to "Good game"
  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member


    Originally posted by nariusseldon

    Originally posted by DamonVile
    Is a vote on this site an honest sample of the mmo market ?
    Of course not. Research shows that F2P players outnumbered sub-only by a large margin. You will never know this if you look at this forum.
    You need research to prove this?

    Place 2 sandwiches side by side. One is labeled free and the other costs $2. Which sandwich gets the most "business?"

    It does not take rocket science to guess which one is more "popular."

    As Damon said, any poll on this site is NOT indicative of the genre as a whole. It is indicative of the posters here, though :)


    Originally posted by Superman0X
    My personal favorite is pay by the minute. This is the single most fair way to do a pay to play game.This way, people who want to play 100 hours a week, can do so, and will support the game. Those of us that only have an hour to two a week, can pay for the time we spend.
    MMORPGs started out this way. Players sometimes wracked up monthly bills of hundreds of dollars with this system. I do not wish to "watch the clock" as I am playing, though.

    I agree that players that do not have the time to play should not pay as much. Would a compromise work? Maybe the option to pay the minute (or hour or week) or a flat rate monthly fee?

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member

    I voted free, but it all depends. I don't mind either, as long as they aren't taking the piss.

     

    If it is a sub game, then I demand that they have no cash shop and have very regular updates. Otherwise I feel like they are taking the piss.

    With B2P I like to pay for updates, rather than being hit over the head with a cash shop (ie: TSW instead of GW2).

    With F2P I like the cash shop to focus on levelling speed, mounts and appearance gear. Not forcing a pay 2 win scenario.  If you can buy a combat advantage in the cash shop, then I am not interested.

     

    Other than that, I don't really care how the company makes its revenue.  F2P certainly means I am more likely to try it out, since there is no barrier to entry. 

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