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Why limiting MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous

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  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stealthbr

    I believe the discussion has deviated far too greatly from its original idea. This trend is establishing itself in modern MMO's, regardless of whether they have "action combat" or not, and that is alarming. Just look at games such as Guild Wars 2, Everquest Next, Wildstar, Neverwinter, ESO, etc.

    Just to note, GW2 should not be in the list and no I don't play it anymore. That games combat flew over the heads of many.

    You may have had 6 main skills with 6 extra skills but there were 3 other sets of 6 skills an F key away. I can say that the Elementalist can be placed against virtually any class from any other game in terms of depth because of this. It was a challenge being able to do continued burst DPS while tossing CCs, heals and keep tank buffs up but it could be done. Then the Mesmer which was just plain fun as hell and very deep if you mastered all of its skillsets.

    Please don't place a game that offered 30 skills in the same category as Neverwinter or other MMOs that only allowed for 5-8 active skills that couldn't be swapped at will.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by aesperus

    The number doesn't necessarily have to be '5', but not having a class that can do pretty much everything (the Lore Master) is just good game design. What you are describing is a symptom of single player games. Where balance isn't that big of a factor, because there's only 1 person playing the game.

    In an MMORPG, spreading those skills out makes a lot more sense. It forces players to cooperate, coordinate, and interact with one another. Furthermore it promotes intelligent gameplay, as you need to predict, and utilize your limited resources (skills) to get the most out of a fight, and potentially strategize properly for the outcome. You don't get the answer to every single attack, and thus have to use the skills you do have in creative ways to try and survive attacks you might not be ready for.

    As I said earlier when someone else made a similar post this is a false argument which you would know if you had played a lore master in LOTRO. You can trait to heal but you will never heal as well as a minstrel or RK, you can trait for damage but you will never equal a champion or hunter. The only thing LM is close to best in game in is CC. 

    The LM is in fact a great support class precisely because while not excelling in any one area it has lots of abilities to aid a group a bit in lots of different areas (This may all be past tense as last expansion changed the class balance in LOTRO a lot...). A class like this could not exist in a game with only a few abilities per class where everyone's role is very obvious and cut and  dried. 

    Well thanks for the condescention, but I did indeed play a Lore Master in LotRO (amongst other classes), and everyone knows that it was one of the most broken classes in the game (which you would too if you played LotRO). See, I can do that too!

    The trait system you are referring to is also a fairly new addition to the game, that came with one of the later expansions. Part of Turbine's intent to re-design the way combat worked in LotRO to make it more comparable to more recent games.

    That said:

    A class like LotRO can (and does) exist in ~5 button games. It just takes (as was mentioned by others), more creative design choices. I'd recommend looking into 'support classes' in MOBA games, or classes like the monk, mesmer, elementalist, and necro in Guild Wars 1. Heck, you can even just look at Keeper of the Light from DotA 2 to see that it can be done. Is it identical? No, but that's not the point. There you have a class that even looks like Gandalf, who can be a mana battery, a damage dealer, a crowd controller, and a group healer, depending on how you set it up. The main difference between that & a Lore Master? Lore Master gets a pet.

    The thing about these smaller skillset games, is that they get more creative with their skills. You don't just get 5 damage abilities. They have multiple uses, and are designed in such a way that they can be multi-purpose. For example, KotL from DotA2 can weaken enemies by draining their mana, but can also give that mana to allies for support. Ra (From SMITE) can cast on areas to either pulse damage to enemies, or to heal allies (or both). There's literally 100s of examples of these kinds of dual-purpose skills across multiple games. And it makes for more interesting gameplay, because of how much versatility and unpredictability it brings to the combat.

    The ironic thing about all of this, is that none of these games are actually limited to 5 abilities. The most basic, simplistic combat I can currently find in any of these genres is Neverwinter. Which has 8 abilities. 4 skills, 2 mouse attacks, 2 ultimate abilities. MOBAs? DotA 2 has as much as 12 skills (3-5 abilities depending on class, not counting pet actions. 6 items, which can be activated for their own abilities, 1 global defense ability). League of Legends? 6 abilities + item skills. SMITE? 4 skills, 2 abilities, 2 consumables, a recall & basic attack.

    There literally doesn't exist an MMO that I can find with only 5 buttons. Even DCUO has more than that. The main difference is that limited skillset games tend to allow you to choose your skillset instead of relying on a trait tree to make large chunks of your abilities pointless. Large skill games tend to do the opposite, and have a lot of waste in their abilities list, by either up-versioning old abilities (fireball 1,2,3,4) or by having trait trees that rule out certain abilities to make others more useful.

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by stealthbr

    I believe the discussion has deviated far too greatly from its original idea. This trend is establishing itself in modern MMO's, regardless of whether they have "action combat" or not, and that is alarming. Just look at games such as Guild Wars 2, Everquest Next, Wildstar, Neverwinter, ESO, etc.

    Just to note, GW2 should not be in the list and no I don't play it anymore. That games combat flew over the heads of many.

    You may have had 6 main skills with 6 extra skills but there were 3 other sets of 6 skills an F key away. I can say that the Elementalist can be placed against virtually any class from any other game in terms of depth because of this. It was a challenge being able to do continued burst DPS while tossing CCs, heals and keep tank buffs up but it could be done. Then the Mesmer which was just plain fun as hell and very deep if you mastered all of its skillsets.

    Please don't place a game that offered 30 skills in the same category as Neverwinter or other MMOs that only allowed for 5-8 active skills that couldn't be swapped at will.

    yep, an elementalist could have up to 41 skills available (depending on your build) and at a minimum would have 25 skills

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stealthbr

    I believe the discussion has deviated far too greatly from its original idea. This trend is establishing itself in modern MMO's, regardless of whether they have "action combat" or not, and that is alarming. Just look at games such as Guild Wars 2, Everquest Next, Wildstar, Neverwinter, ESO, etc. and it becomes evident that developers are more inclined to limit the amount of skills available at any given moment to a player. I believe this to be detrimental to the overall experience of a Role-playing game, as these types of games usually revolve around forging highly intricate and complex characters with a myriad of differing powers at their disposal.

    This new approach within MMO's is essentially butchering the depth associated with playing a character tailored to your exact liking and specifications as you are always constrained by an arbitrary limit. It restricts players and forces them to conform to a certain style of gameplay if they are not able to utilize all the tools they deem necessary to successfully bring forth their concepts of how their character should be. "Want to be an archer that utilizes lots of traps, can tame beasts, heal with nature's powers, and hide in plain sight? Oh, well, too bad, because you have just surpassed the quota on your skill bar. Change the way you want to play your character because the limit says so!"

    Honestly, it's not a bad thing. It promotes better game design (even though I do still enjoy some of those older games with 50+ active skills per class).

    I know a lot of MMO gamers view this as a threat, but you really need to start looking outside the genre to realize that it's a benefit. MMOs have been 'stuck in their ways' for a very long time, and there's just countless examples of ways things could be designed better in this genre. Combat being a small part of that.

    Many other games (RPGs included) have found ways to do more with fewer skill options. Furthermore, many of these have also found ways to make these skills more useful / versatile, and the combat more dynamic, by allowing skill & player choice to dictate the outcome. When you have these games with 50+ skills on your bars, what ends up happening is you have a skill (or 4) for everything. It actually ends up reducing the amount of strategy involved, which seems counter-intuitive, but it's true.

    Guild Wars 2 is a great example of this. When you have limited skills, like in that game, they get treated as more of a resource, and less of an automative response. Someone uses a harmful spell? Well, you're going to have to probably waste one of your abilities, which limits what you can follow up with. In older games, you'd literally have 2-6 cooldowns to choose from in most cases. I.E. WoW, pop vanish and reset the fight. Then back to your normal rotation. In Guild Wars 2? You'd have to choose which important ability to waste, and try and figure out a way to turn that into an advantage. For example, on thief, you often have to juggle using your escape abilities for both offense (stealth + backstab), or defense (stealth and hope u can get out of range).

    Other examples are games many of us really enjoyed as well. Games like Diablo, Titanquest, Neverwinter Nights, etc. All had limited skill usage. However the combat was still fun, engaging, and had some depth to it. I'm not saying all MMOs should now become Diablo clones, but there are clearly a multitude of ways to design combat that aren't all bad. And it should be evident that MMOs (who almost all have been using identical combat design), are not superior to all other forms of design.

  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by stealthbr

    I believe the discussion has deviated far too greatly from its original idea. This trend is establishing itself in modern MMO's, regardless of whether they have "action combat" or not, and that is alarming. Just look at games such as Guild Wars 2, Everquest Next, Wildstar, Neverwinter, ESO, etc.

    Just to note, GW2 should not be in the list and no I don't play it anymore. That games combat flew over the heads of many.

    You may have had 6 main skills with 6 extra skills but there were 3 other sets of 6 skills an F key away. I can say that the Elementalist can be placed against virtually any class from any other game in terms of depth because of this. It was a challenge being able to do continued burst DPS while tossing CCs, heals and keep tank buffs up but it could be done. Then the Mesmer which was just plain fun as hell and very deep if you mastered all of its skillsets.

    Please don't place a game that offered 30 skills in the same category as Neverwinter or other MMOs that only allowed for 5-8 active skills that couldn't be swapped at will.

    Thanks for pointing this out. I completely forgot about weapon swapping in Guild Wars 2. This statement has been rectified.

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Guild Wars 2 is a great example of this. When you have limited skills, like in that game, they get treated as more of a resource, and less of an automative response. Someone uses a harmful spell? Well, you're going to have to probably waste one of your abilities, which limits what you can follow up with. In older games, you'd literally have 2-6 cooldowns to choose from in most cases.

    So after two posts pointing out that GW2 is not limited in skills you post GW2 as proof that lack of skills work...

    The F1-4 keys instantly swap out an elementalists skills, on the fly, allowing the class to be DPS, Tank, healer and CCer. All they did was remove the hotbars, they didn't remove the skill selection, they are still there. yeesh.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by JJ82

    Just to note, GW2 should not be in the list and no I don't play it anymore. That games combat flew over the heads of many.

    You may have had 6 main skills with 6 extra skills but there were 3 other sets of 6 skills an F key away. I can say that the Elementalist can be placed against virtually any class from any other game in terms of depth because of this. It was a challenge being able to do continued burst DPS while tossing CCs, heals and keep tank buffs up but it could be done. Then the Mesmer which was just plain fun as hell and very deep if you mastered all of its skillsets.

    Please don't place a game that offered 30 skills in the same category as Neverwinter or other MMOs that only allowed for 5-8 active skills that couldn't be swapped at will.

    Thanks for pointing this out. I completely forgot about weapon swapping in Guild Wars 2. This statement has been rectified.

    actually not even the weapon swapping part, just the element changing part. If you want to toss in weapon swapping as well then we will get into the skill range of the 100s. An elementalist has 6 fire, 6 water, 6 lightning and 6 earth skills available to them via the F1-4 keys. And each weapon brings 6x4 element skills very different from each other. :-)

    EDITED: Now that I am thinking about it, wasn't it 5 skills per element and not 6? Been around 4 months since ive played so I may be wrong.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • BeansnBreadBeansnBread PshPosts: 5,501Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by JJ82

    Just to note, GW2 should not be in the list and no I don't play it anymore. That games combat flew over the heads of many.

    You may have had 6 main skills with 6 extra skills but there were 3 other sets of 6 skills an F key away. I can say that the Elementalist can be placed against virtually any class from any other game in terms of depth because of this. It was a challenge being able to do continued burst DPS while tossing CCs, heals and keep tank buffs up but it could be done. Then the Mesmer which was just plain fun as hell and very deep if you mastered all of its skillsets.

    Please don't place a game that offered 30 skills in the same category as Neverwinter or other MMOs that only allowed for 5-8 active skills that couldn't be swapped at will.

    Thanks for pointing this out. I completely forgot about weapon swapping in Guild Wars 2. This statement has been rectified.

    actually not even the weapon swapping part, just the element changing part. If you want to toss in weapon swapping as well then we will get into the skill range of the 100s. An elementalist has 6 fire, 6 water, 6 lightning and 6 earth skills available to them via the F1-4 keys. And each weapon brings 6x4 element skills very different from each other. :-)

    You can't swap weapons with an elementalist. But yeah, they get access to a solid amount of skills.

  • whisperwyndwhisperwynd montreal, QCPosts: 1,479Member
    Originally posted by colddog04

    actually not even the weapon swapping part, just the element changing part. If you want to toss in weapon swapping as well then we will get into the skill range of the 100s. An elementalist has 6 fire, 6 water, 6 lightning and 6 earth skills available to them via the F1-4 keys. And each weapon brings 6x4 element skills very different from each other. :-)

    You can't swap weapons with an elementalist. But yeah, they get access to a solid amount of skills.

    And technically it's 5. The 6 key is usually your self-heal ability, but whatever.  image

  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by aesperus

    Honestly, it's not a bad thing. It promotes better game design (even though I do still enjoy some of those older games with 50+ active skills per class).

    I know a lot of MMO gamers view this as a threat, but you really need to start looking outside the genre to realize that it's a benefit. MMOs have been 'stuck in their ways' for a very long time, and there's just countless examples of ways things could be designed better in this genre. Combat being a small part of that.

    Many other games (RPGs included) have found ways to do more with fewer skill options. Furthermore, many of these have also found ways to make these skills more useful / versatile, and the combat more dynamic, by allowing skill & player choice to dictate the outcome. When you have these games with 50+ skills on your bars, what ends up happening is you have a skill (or 4) for everything. It actually ends up reducing the amount of strategy involved, which seems counter-intuitive, but it's true.

    Guild Wars 2 is a great example of this. When you have limited skills, like in that game, they get treated as more of a resource, and less of an automative response. Someone uses a harmful spell? Well, you're going to have to probably waste one of your abilities, which limits what you can follow up with. In older games, you'd literally have 2-6 cooldowns to choose from in most cases. I.E. WoW, pop vanish and reset the fight. Then back to your normal rotation. In Guild Wars 2? You'd have to choose which important ability to waste, and try and figure out a way to turn that into an advantage. For example, on thief, you often have to juggle using your escape abilities for both offense (stealth + backstab), or defense (stealth and hope u can get out of range).

    Other examples are games many of us really enjoyed as well. Games like Diablo, Titanquest, Neverwinter Nights, etc. All had limited skill usage. However the combat was still fun, engaging, and had some depth to it. I'm not saying all MMOs should now become Diablo clones, but there are clearly a multitude of ways to design combat that aren't all bad. And it should be evident that MMOs (who almost all have been using identical combat design), are not superior to all other forms of design.

    I do not believe better game design is guiding this trend, but the fact that modern games are being created for consoles and have to accommodate a very limited input device such as a game controller. Not only that, games are progressively becoming easier and more simple, as developers try to expand their target audience. It does not matter if other games have found ways to condense skills and make them more meaningful, a creative mind will always think of more abilities than the amount one can fit in a limited hotbar. You have to consider that many iconic RPG classes were created for their versatility, such as the bard. With a limited hotbar, you virtually make it impossible for players to create characters with many options at their disposal because of an arbitrary constrain. How can a player even begin to build his character in such a way if his options are narrow from the beginning? What about usable items such as scrolls? What about buffs? What about utilities? What about pets and their abilities? There is simply too much in RPG's to cover in a small 8 slot hotbar.

  • KilrainKilrain Prineville, ORPosts: 684Member Uncommon

    Not only does limiting the number of active abilities free up screen space and require less hotkeys to be pressed, it also gives potential for the players to be more diverse. If 3 players of the same class have 15 different skills loaded, that's 3 completely different sub classes.

     

    EDIT: I just wanted to add that if you take a look at Darkfall: Unholy War's user interface you'll find something that could easily be used with a controller. Granted the DFUW system doesn't work well for that game because of it's competitive pvp nature, making controllers a major gimp factor, you could still see it working extremely well in a pve game.

    professional web programming and design.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by collekt Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by collekt Originally posted by lizardbones I'm not comparing the games, I'm comparing the experience of using very few buttons to the experience of using many buttons. That it happens in an MMORPG or in a team based FPS isn't relevant. Especially when the conversation is limited to PvP only. Can you even name an MMORPG with five or fewer skills for comparison?  
    Yes, we know what you are comparing. The whole thread is about the feature of using 5 or less buttons. The kind of game you're playing is HUGELY relevant. How can you even claim that it's not? The mechanics are vastly different between the 2 genres, and there is a reason you don't see shooters with lots of abilities. You seem to think the type of game is somehow an abstract concept that doesn't apply, but it definitely does.
    The discussion has centered around combat. Nobody has discussed how having twenty abilities enhances walking into an auction house or resting between encounters. In that regard, it's perfectly fair to compare a game with 1 button to a game with 20 buttons if the discussion is about the number of buttons, which apparently, it is. But just in case, how does having twenty skills or buttons affect anything outside of combat?
    It doesn't, and if you can point out where I mentioned anything outside of combat I'd be astonished. The point is that the way combat works in an FPS and the way it works in an MMORPG are incredibly different. The discussion is about the number of buttons IN AN MMORPG, please check the title of the thread.    Edit: You'll have to point out what mechanics/games you're talking about here. I can't read your mind.
    The Division and Destiny will both have FPS combat in an MMORPG. Global Agenda already includes FPS combat in an MMORPG. When the discussion is about the combat and how the number of buttons affects the combat then the type of game becomes much less important than the combat itself. Especially if the combat is something that can appear in the games under question.
    I'm not familiar enough with exactly how Destiny is going to work to be able to address that, but I think we all knew that we weren't talking about that kind of game. You're really reaching here and pushing the semantics. Destiny is, as you said, an FPS. Even though no one has explicitly said it, I'm sure you were aware that people here are talking about traditional 3rd person MMORPGs, not first person shooter MMOs. Actually, does Destiny even qualify as an MMORPG or would it actually be an MMOFPS?

    Either way, I'm done here because you're just arguing for the sake of arguing about things that don't matter.




    Insisting on an arbitrary set of rules for a discussion doesn't mean those rules pop into existence. Besides, the only aspect of MMORPGs being discussed here is the combat. If being an MMORPG were relevant, some other aspect of the game would come up, but it doesn't seem to be happening. Combat is the topic. If examples exist outside of MMORPGs of combat that is both engaging and fun without "many buttons", there's no reason to not include it here.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • donpopukidonpopuki Dearborn, MIPosts: 591Member
    We shouldn't confuse form with function. I fear some are placing too much importance on the form of hotbars and triggering actions in the game with set skills. Try imagining a Street Fighter game built with a MMO UI and we can see how cumbersome it can be. In fact the hotbar as we know maybe on it's way out.
  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Algo Star SystemPosts: 651Member Uncommon

    Combat depth shouldn't require having window clutter. Just because many of you have nostalgia for this foolishness doesn't make it proper. It's not efficient. It's NOT fun, if it was, many of you wouldn't use macros. I'm sorry but those days are over. Not because of "dumbing down" it's smartening up.  There are smarter ways to handle skills. Now, I'm not saying a set number of skills is the answer. I'm saying clutter is bad.  If a developer figures out how to have a deep experience using 5 buttons I applaud that (if they pull it off).

     

     

  • moosecatlolmoosecatlol Boring, TXPosts: 1,172Member Uncommon
    Instead of creating a game where players have to actually need to learn how to play, why not make a game that they can easily figure out and ultimately master with little to no effort.
  • ScorchienScorchien Hatboro, PAPosts: 1,344Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by moosecatlol
    Instead of creating a game where players have to actually need to learn how to play, why not make a game that they can easily figure out and ultimately master with little to no effort.

    they already made that game .. its called GW2

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member
    Originally posted by donpopuki
    We shouldn't confuse form with function. I fear some are placing too much importance on the form of hotbars and triggering actions in the game with set skills. Try imagining a Street Fighter game built with a MMO UI and we can see how cumbersome it can be. In fact the hotbar as we know maybe on it's way out.

    agreed

    look at games such as DCUO or Vindictus. A lot of the abilities are performed by the way you click the mouse (ie hold left mouse and then tap the right mouse button). They have multiple abilities that way when on the surface it looks as if you have very few skills.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 7,221Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JJ82
    Originally posted by stealthbr

    I believe the discussion has deviated far too greatly from its original idea. This trend is establishing itself in modern MMO's, regardless of whether they have "action combat" or not, and that is alarming. Just look at games such as Guild Wars 2, Everquest Next, Wildstar, Neverwinter, ESO, etc.

    Just to note, GW2 should not be in the list and no I don't play it anymore. That games combat flew over the heads of many.

    You may have had 6 main skills with 6 extra skills but there were 3 other sets of 6 skills an F key away. I can say that the Elementalist can be placed against virtually any class from any other game in terms of depth because of this. It was a challenge being able to do continued burst DPS while tossing CCs, heals and keep tank buffs up but it could be done. Then the Mesmer which was just plain fun as hell and very deep if you mastered all of its skillsets.

    Please don't place a game that offered 30 skills in the same category as Neverwinter or other MMOs that only allowed for 5-8 active skills that couldn't be swapped at will.

    A character has 12 skills available in Neverwinter: 2 at will, 3 encounter - TAB to add functionality + 2 dailies. Even if you only count the 7 available without TAB shifting it still has a more diverse and dynamic combat element than say EQ2 or LotRO. I rarely use more than 8 - 10 skills in either of those games on my warden or lore-master.

  • FlyByKnightFlyByKnight Algo Star SystemPosts: 651Member Uncommon
    Why can't a developer do this?  Never more than 5 skills in the toolbar at a time. Include this with a combo system and you've got all types of possibilities.  Its one of the things I kinda like about GW2 (as an engineer). They just lack some sort of combo system. I'll take this over  15-20 buttons on the screen at  time.
    • Tilde -  Returns To Main Skill bar
    • Button 1- Debuff Stance
      • 1) Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
      • 2) Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
      • 3) Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
      • 4) Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
    • Button 2 - Melee Attack Stance
      • 1) Melee attack -- single target
      • 2) Melee attack -- aoe sweep
    • Button 3 - Magic Attack Stance
      • 1) Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
      • 2) Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
      • 3) Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
      • 4) Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
      • 5) Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
    • Button 4 - CC Stance
      • 1) Stun -- single target
      • 2) Stun -- aoe
      • 3) Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
    • Button 5 - Heal Stance
      • 1) Heal -- single target heals health of ally
      • 2) Heal -- heals power of ally
  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by donpopuki
    We shouldn't confuse form with function. I fear some are placing too much importance on the form of hotbars and triggering actions in the game with set skills. Try imagining a Street Fighter game built with a MMO UI and we can see how cumbersome it can be. In fact the hotbar as we know maybe on it's way out.

    I highly doubt hotbars are on their way out simply because developers have yet to offer a more efficient and easier manner for a player to interact with his character's various abilities.

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Torvaldr

    A character has 12 skills available in Neverwinter: 2 at will, 3 encounter - TAB to add functionality + 2 dailies. Even if you only count the 7 available without TAB shifting it still has a more diverse and dynamic combat element than say EQ2 or LotRO. I rarely use more than 8 - 10 skills in either of those games on my warden or lore-master.

    Daily skills are not always available. They have to be built up in order to be used. TAB is not a skill. Its 5 skills you have period.

    And no, it does not matter that you personally chose to use only 8 to 10 of your classes skills in another game because the entire argument is that the more skills you have to chose from the more ways you can play, or are you really trying to say that EVERYONE that played those classes played exactly the same way you did and ignored all the other skills? because you would be wrong if you are saying it and if you are not saying it you are only proving our point for us.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FlyByKnight
    Why can't a developer do this?  Never more than 5 skills in the toolbar at a time. Include this with a combo system and you've got all types of possibilities.  Its one of the things I kinda like about GW2 (as an engineer). They just lack some sort of combo system. I'll take this over  15-20 buttons on the screen at  time.
    • Tilde -  Returns To Main Skill bar
    • Button 1- Debuff Stance
      • 1) Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
      • 2) Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
      • 3) Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
      • 4) Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
    • Button 2 - Melee Attack Stance
      • 1) Melee attack -- single target
      • 2) Melee attack -- aoe sweep
    • Button 3 - Magic Attack Stance
      • 1) Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
      • 2) Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
      • 3) Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
      • 4) Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
      • 5) Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
    • Button 4 - CC Stance
      • 1) Stun -- single target
      • 2) Stun -- aoe
      • 3) Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
    • Button 5 - Heal Stance
      • 1) Heal -- single target heals health of ally
      • 2) Heal -- heals power of ally

     

    That is not that far from GW2 Elementalist, only you use the F keys to swap skills. Man I really wish that game wasn't so focused on PvP end game...

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • VincerKadenVincerKaden Edison, NJPosts: 457Member

    I like the idea of having a limited number of slotted abilities. It forces me to make choices that matter and makes each character of the same class have the potential to be slightly different at a given moment.

    On the other hand, I like having a larger selection of skills to choose from if they all have meaning. To the OP's Loremaster example, I find that class (and the LOTRO Captain class) enjoyable because of their various uses as utility/support classes. That's a personal preference of mine. If either of those classes had to be reduced down to only 5 or so skills, then they would be very poor utility classes, and I'd enjoy them less.

    So it's very much a matter of opinion and personal taste. There's no right or wrong way to go. Not every game should be made the same anyway. If a game in question doesn't have the number or type of skills that are preferred by a given player, then said player should not feel the need to (a) play the game nor (b) ask that the game be changed. Especially when there are so many MMOs on the market to choose from.

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  • g0m0rrahg0m0rrah indianapolis, INPosts: 269Member
    Originally posted by olepi

    I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.

    Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:

    • Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
    • Melee attack -- single target
    • Melee attack -- aoe sweep
    • Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
    • Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
    • Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
    • Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
    • Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
    • Stun -- single target
    • Stun -- aoe
    • Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
    • Heal -- single target heals health of ally
    • Heal -- heals power of ally
     
    That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
     
    Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.

     I disagree with you, mostly.  Im not one for console gaming well besides rockband.  I do think that most mmorpgs toss out abilities like candy turning most classes into much to well rounded combatants.  I also think 5 main combat abilities isnt to few.  Most buffs can be cast out of combat, so they can be relegated to a menu related cast, this also includes out of combat rezing.

      You could take 5 core abilities and work with them in such a way as for them to have multiple effects such as a single target ability that heals when cast on allies and deals damage when cast on enemies.  You can also condense abilities in other logical ways as in your lotro character sticky tar could also gain the effect of an attack speed slow, which imo makes sense and decreases your ability pool by 1 more.

      I would much prefer a system where the advantage of multiple abilities is balanced by the specializing in a few.  I would much rather build a character with 8 specialized abilities that perform at their peak than having 16 mediocre abilities.  The problem with most if not all mmorpgs is that they do not give you a choice.

  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAPosts: 4,179Member Uncommon

    The real issue at hand isn't how many abilities your character/avatar can perform.

    It's how many you need to have immediate access to via hotkeys/buttonbars/etc at any given time.

    With 5 (or whatever number you choose to pick) buttons to push, you can still have a huge variety of various skills available, via things like combos, chording, length of button press, position in relation to enemy, synergy with other PC/NPC abilities, etc.

    Don't confuse only having 5 buttons available with only having 5 skills available.

    I'm all for simplifying the interface - the interface shouldn't be complicated, it's an unnatural and restrictive device that is meant to allow you, as the player, to interact with your character/avatar and the world they are in. The less obtrusive, the more natural, and the more ubiquitous the UI is, the better. A UI you don't notice, you don't have to play with, you don't have to set up massive amounts of button bars and arcane hotkey shortcuts (not to confuse that with the inability to customize, that's not what I'm saying) - that's a good UI. It means you can get down to the business of actually playing the game rather than fussing with the UI.

    The OP just made the (incorrect) assumption that fewer available buttons to press = fewer skills to use. Which isn't necessarily true.

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