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Why limiting MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous

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  • LittleBootLittleBoot roystonPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by olepi

    My LoTRO character has several different debuffs: 1) melee dmg, 2) range dmg, 3) run speed, 4) magic dmg. As one poster said, why not just have a single debuff button that does it all?

    This is the crux of the problem. Having 4 different debuffs, that do different things, means I have to think about the situation. Casting a melee debuff does nothing against a magic or range enemy. Casting a run speed debuff does nothing against a range target that isn't running. I have to THINK about what I am going to do.

    Putting it all on one button means I DON'T HAVE TO THINK, I just mash one button. The only reason to do this is because players don't want to think anymore, or else because the console is forcing the dumbing down of the game.

    Yeah, but it is difficulty that is so artificially created that it feels unwieldy and tiresome.  Clever design allows for something that is easy to grasp but hard to master (at least in a competitive way)- the classic example being chess (which at its most basic level has six moves- and yes I know that is not strictly correct before people start flinging shit like rabied baboons).  

  • collektcollekt Meridian, MSPosts: 273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Consoles are on their third generation, and the number of buttons has been locked in for at least two generations. Believe it or not, they had six little colorful candy buttons at one point instead of the four they have now. It's not like the number of active buttons couldn't have been expanded at some point. It would even be in the developers' and console makers' best interests to expand the number of buttons on a controller post launch so that they could sell another set of controllers. It's not like they don't sell additional controllers and stuff to hook up to their systems such as toy guns, keyboards and even mice. An expansion of the number of buttons could jump to consoles, especially with MMORPGs coming to consoles. It just doesn't.

    As I said, I don't think there's anything objectively better or worse about the number of buttons in any given game, whether it's an MMORPG or not. If "fewer buttons" is becoming more prevalent, then it's because more people prefer it, not because it makes objectively better games. By the same logic, if "fewer buttons" doesn't make objectively better games, then "more buttons" cannot make objectively better games either.

    As far as MMORPGs go, they are still games. The same logic, that preference and subjectivity determine what's 'good' applies. They also don't operate in a vacuum. People who play MMORPGs also play MOBAs, or single player RPGs. They likely play console games as well as PC games. A player preference, such as limiting the number of buttons can be held by that player regardless of what kind of game they are playing.

    I think a lot of my viewpoints differ because I'm not much of a PvE player as well. I don't even play MMOs that don't offer a decent PvP system, and so I'm obviously in the minority since most people like to just play against computer controlled opponents. PvE is always going to be reduced to the most effective rotation of skills, because you don't really have to react much outside of avoiding AoEs and such. I prefer the more dynamic and competitive experience offered by PvP, and this is where I really dislike the low number of skills. There is very little predicting or anticipating when the opponent only has 5 abilities to use, at least 1 or 2 of which are surely just damage skills.

    However, it is as you have pointed out just preference. I'm just in the minority because outsmarting the very easily predictable AI in most MMOs is boring to me.

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by Iselin

     

    The LM in LOTRO with its combination of CC, DPS, Heals and debuffs actually is a great example of the extremes of highly specific special purpose abilities that MMOs got to. Have your LM hot-bars ever been anything other than an unsightly mess that eats up a large chunk (~ 25%) of the bottom-center of your screen real state? Maybe at level 10 it was manageable but by the time you hit level 40 or so and had most of your abilities it was just a mess of buttons... some of which you had to hunt for since the button graphics of several are similar enough that if it's not one of your frequently used skills, you weren't sure which was which.

     

     

    I'm also a LM player  and (the old LM)  is my favorite ever class in any MMO for pretty much the reasons you said here. Only I see it as actually having to think about what skill to use instead of just memorizing a rotation (this combined with LOTRO's relatively slow paced combat made it a very strategic experience.) I also loved that they had some abilities that were completely useless 99 fights out of 100 but would completely win that 100th fight for you if you took the time to know what they did.  

     

    I'm not a fan of the recent changes they made to make the class easy-mode but that's another subject. 

     

    You're right though. It's 2 different styles of combat. Cerebral vs. visceral. Probably 1 game will never make fans of both completely happy. I don't hate the skill deck type system despite criticisizing it before. I didn't like GW2 combat but that was mainly because it seemed to be just constant running in circles and jumping around which isn't really what I don't really enjoy. I love combat in EVE Online and that uses a similar fitting system (if you imagine your ship in EVE as being like part of your "build" in another MMO) and is easily the most deep combat system in any MMO ever).

     

  • evilastroevilastro EdinburghPosts: 4,270Member
    Originally posted by olepi

    I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.

    Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:

    • Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
    • Melee attack -- single target
    • Melee attack -- aoe sweep
    • Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
    • Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
    • Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
    • Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
    • Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
    • Stun -- single target
    • Stun -- aoe
    • Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
    • Heal -- single target heals health of ally
    • Heal -- heals power of ally
     
    That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
     
    Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.

     

    And yet the reality is two DPS macros (single target and AoE), a heal, a mana restore and a few CC on the side that you will rarely use.  Realistically you only need to use 4 buttons to play a Loremaster unless you are soloing (where you actually need the CC).  Even so, you can fit it all on one hotbar.  The only thing that changes between fights is which debuffs to use.

    My enchanter on EQ2 has 40ish skills, yet I only need 1 buff hotbar and 3 actual macros.  More buttons =/= challenging or interesting gameplay.

    Even if you flat out refused to use macros as some people on here do, all you are going to do is put your skills in the cast order and then play whack-a-mole.  More tedious than challenging.  Unless looking at cooldowns is challenging to you?

     

    All of the above could be simplified into:

    1 - Single target damage

    2 - AoE damage

    3 - Debuffs

    4 - Single stun

    5 - AoE stun

    6 - AoE slow / snare

    7 - Heal

    8 - Power

     

    Oh look, it fits into 8 buttons. Just make the damage skills change visually on each press for variety (since that's how anyone with a brain plays it already anyway).  

  • collektcollekt Meridian, MSPosts: 273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by evilastro
    Originally posted by olepi

    I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.

    Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:

    • Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
    • Melee attack -- single target
    • Melee attack -- aoe sweep
    • Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
    • Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
    • Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
    • Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
    • Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
    • Stun -- single target
    • Stun -- aoe
    • Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
    • Heal -- single target heals health of ally
    • Heal -- heals power of ally
     
    That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
     
    Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.

     

    And yet the reality is two DPS macros (single target and AoE), a heal, a mana restore and a few CC on the side that you will rarely use.  Realistically you only need to use 4 buttons to play a Loremaster unless you are soloing (where you actually need the CC).  Even so, you can fit it all on one hotbar.  The only thing that changes between fights is which debuffs to use.

    My enchanter on EQ2 has 40ish skills, yet I only need 1 buff hotbar and 3 actual macros.  More buttons =/= challenging or interesting gameplay.

    Even if you flat out refused to use macros as some people on here do, all you are going to do is put your skills in the cast order and then play whack-a-mole.  More tedious than challenging.  Unless looking at cooldowns is challenging to you?

     

    All of the above could be simplified into:

    1 - Single target damage

    2 - AoE damage

    3 - Debuffs

    4 - Single stun

    5 - AoE stun

    6 - AoE slow / snare

    7 - Heal

    8 - Power

     

    Oh look, it fits into 8 buttons. Just make the damage skills change visually on each press for variety (since that's how anyone with a brain plays it already anyway).  

    This may be the case for that game, but I'd rather not have such homogenized skills. There are other types of CC than stun, slow, and snare. There are also different kinds of healing mechanics that can be utilized. There are many things you can do with damage to prevent it from being so straight forward, boring, and brainless.. such as resistances, damage types, damage abilities with secondary effects, etc.

  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAPosts: 4,178Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by iridescence
    Originally posted by Ridelynn   And that rather loosly ties into the "I need 85 hotkeys so I can access all of my abilities" arguement - in that while I think players should have access to 85+ different abilities, they should have to pick and choose from them in order to shape their character, and only be able to actually use a select few from that pool at any given time. Not every game subscribes to that philosophy though.
    Why? If my character knows how to do something why would he suddenly forget how to do it just because it isn't equipped? This doesn't make sense. There's no reason that games "have to be this way" other than it facilitates the kind of "new" MMO combat that you probably love but I dislike strongly. It's a personal preference. not a "Change is inevitable. Just accept it!" thing. I prefer the older style of MMO combat. Neither one of us is "right". We just like different kinds of games.

     

     


    If I go strap on a pair of ice-skates, am I still going to be able to kick a football? I didn't forget how to kick the football, it's just my choice in wearing ice-skates rather inhibits my ability to do it.

    Same thing with games --

  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by Ridelynn

     


    Originally posted by iridescence

    Originally posted by Ridelynn   And that rather loosly ties into the "I need 85 hotkeys so I can access all of my abilities" arguement - in that while I think players should have access to 85+ different abilities, they should have to pick and choose from them in order to shape their character, and only be able to actually use a select few from that pool at any given time. Not every game subscribes to that philosophy though.
    Why? If my character knows how to do something why would he suddenly forget how to do it just because it isn't equipped? This doesn't make sense. There's no reason that games "have to be this way" other than it facilitates the kind of "new" MMO combat that you probably love but I dislike strongly. It's a personal preference. not a "Change is inevitable. Just accept it!" thing. I prefer the older style of MMO combat. Neither one of us is "right". We just like different kinds of games.

     

     

     


     

    If I go strap on a pair of ice-skates, am I still going to be able to kick a football? I didn't forget how to kick the football, it's just my choice in wearing ice-skates rather inhibits my ability to do it.

    Same thing with games --

    This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......

    On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.

  • LittleBootLittleBoot roystonPosts: 326Member
    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by Ridelynn

     


    Originally posted by iridescence

    Originally posted by Ridelynn   And that rather loosly ties into the "I need 85 hotkeys so I can access all of my abilities" arguement - in that while I think players should have access to 85+ different abilities, they should have to pick and choose from them in order to shape their character, and only be able to actually use a select few from that pool at any given time. Not every game subscribes to that philosophy though.
    Why? If my character knows how to do something why would he suddenly forget how to do it just because it isn't equipped? This doesn't make sense. There's no reason that games "have to be this way" other than it facilitates the kind of "new" MMO combat that you probably love but I dislike strongly. It's a personal preference. not a "Change is inevitable. Just accept it!" thing. I prefer the older style of MMO combat. Neither one of us is "right". We just like different kinds of games.

     

     

     


     

    If I go strap on a pair of ice-skates, am I still going to be able to kick a football? I didn't forget how to kick the football, it's just my choice in wearing ice-skates rather inhibits my ability to do it.

    Same thing with games --

    This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......

    On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.

    But if he was ice-skating while using the shield he wouldn't be able to dance the fandango.

  • FdzzaiglFdzzaigl Somewhere in nowherePosts: 2,325Member Uncommon

    Don't really like it either, I like to have lots of options in games.

    It's not really about having individual skills either, some games might be able to give you a very diverse playstyle with limited buttons but with a deep focus on combo's / movement etc.

    But it has to be more than just adding a dodge key.

    Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!

  • RidelynnRidelynn Fresno, CAPosts: 4,178Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by stealthbr
    This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.

    Why would you need different buttons for swinging a sword then? That's what your describing right? Do you need a separate button for riposte? For block? For jab? For feint? For "Whirlwind but in the other direction"? For "Overhead Slash to the left instead of right"? For "Underhanded jab with my left hand while standing on one foot eating a ham sandwich"?

    Maybe I'm going a bit overboard, but in your 2 examples, it's already gotten to the point of being ridiculous to me. Why not just "attack with sword" and your character does what he knows with the sword -- if you want to get all jiggy with it and directly control exactly how your character is swinging the sword, then isn't there a Kinect app for that?

    I don't need 16 buttons all dealing with how to swing my characters sword. Now, if the game were only in dealing with sword play - say a fencing simulator -- ok, then I could totally understand 16 (or more) buttons for sword play. But in a generic fantasy game, where there are a lot of interesting things to do aside from just swinging a sword, I'd rather have buttons for stuff aside from just telling my character different ways to swing their sword -- because then you've just got to the point of having the player push extra buttons for the sake of pushing buttons under the pretense of adding depth, not because it really has much to do with the gameplay or adding anything meaningful to the complexity of the game.

  • olepiolepi Austin, TXPosts: 1,150Member Uncommon

    "I don't need 16 buttons all dealing with how to swing my characters sword. "

    As I said in the original post, it might make some sense if you are wielding a specialized weapon like a sword. But in my case. I'm using a staff for everything. There is no changing weapons. All 16 of my skills are used with the staff. So yes, there *are* a lot of ways to use a staff.

    ------------
    RIP City of Heroes. One of my favorite MMO's.

  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by Ridelynn

     


    Originally posted by stealthbr
    This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......

     

    On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.


     

    Why would you need different buttons for swinging a sword then? That's what your describing right? Do you need a separate button for riposte? For block? For jab? For feint? For "Whirlwind but in the other direction"? For "Overhead Slash to the left instead of right"? For "Underhanded jab with my left hand while standing on one foot eating a ham sandwich"?

    Maybe I'm going a bit overboard, but in your 2 examples, it's already gotten to the point of being ridiculous to me. Why not just "attack with sword" and your character does what he knows with the sword -- if you want to get all jiggy with it and directly control exactly how your character is swinging the sword, then isn't there a Kinect app for that?

    I don't need 16 buttons all dealing with how to swing my characters sword. Now, if the game were only in dealing with sword play - say a fencing simulator -- ok, then I could totally understand 16 (or more) buttons for sword play. But in a generic fantasy game, where there are a lot of interesting things to do aside from just swinging a sword, I'd rather have buttons for stuff aside from just telling my character different ways to swing their sword -- because then you've just got to the point of having the player push extra buttons for the sake of pushing buttons under the pretense of adding depth, not because it really has much to do with the gameplay or adding anything meaningful to the complexity of the game.

    Um.. okay, this is an easy answer. Overhead Slash could be a strong single-target, instant sword attack while Whirlwind could be a channeled, medium damage, AoE ability. Two very different abilities that both utilize a sword. Rofl dude, edit your previous post because your analogy sucks big time.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by lizardbones Consoles are on their third generation, and the number of buttons has been locked in for at least two generations. Believe it or not, they had six little colorful candy buttons at one point instead of the four they have now. It's not like the number of active buttons couldn't have been expanded at some point. It would even be in the developers' and console makers' best interests to expand the number of buttons on a controller post launch so that they could sell another set of controllers. It's not like they don't sell additional controllers and stuff to hook up to their systems such as toy guns, keyboards and even mice. An expansion of the number of buttons could jump to consoles, especially with MMORPGs coming to consoles. It just doesn't. As I said, I don't think there's anything objectively better or worse about the number of buttons in any given game, whether it's an MMORPG or not. If "fewer buttons" is becoming more prevalent, then it's because more people prefer it, not because it makes objectively better games. By the same logic, if "fewer buttons" doesn't make objectively better games, then "more buttons" cannot make objectively better games either. As far as MMORPGs go, they are still games. The same logic, that preference and subjectivity determine what's 'good' applies. They also don't operate in a vacuum. People who play MMORPGs also play MOBAs, or single player RPGs. They likely play console games as well as PC games. A player preference, such as limiting the number of buttons can be held by that player regardless of what kind of game they are playing.
    I think a lot of my viewpoints differ because I'm not much of a PvE player as well. I don't even play MMOs that don't offer a decent PvP system, and so I'm obviously in the minority since most people like to just play against computer controlled opponents. PvE is always going to be reduced to the most effective rotation of skills, because you don't really have to react much outside of avoiding AoEs and such. I prefer the more dynamic and competitive experience offered by PvP, and this is where I really dislike the low number of skills. There is very little predicting or anticipating when the opponent only has 5 abilities to use, at least 1 or 2 of which are surely just damage skills.

    However, it is as you have pointed out just preference. I'm just in the minority because outsmarting the very easily predictable AI in most MMOs is boring to me.




    Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP.

    I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • collektcollekt Meridian, MSPosts: 273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

     


    Originally posted by collekt

    Originally posted by lizardbones Consoles are on their third generation, and the number of buttons has been locked in for at least two generations. Believe it or not, they had six little colorful candy buttons at one point instead of the four they have now. It's not like the number of active buttons couldn't have been expanded at some point. It would even be in the developers' and console makers' best interests to expand the number of buttons on a controller post launch so that they could sell another set of controllers. It's not like they don't sell additional controllers and stuff to hook up to their systems such as toy guns, keyboards and even mice. An expansion of the number of buttons could jump to consoles, especially with MMORPGs coming to consoles. It just doesn't. As I said, I don't think there's anything objectively better or worse about the number of buttons in any given game, whether it's an MMORPG or not. If "fewer buttons" is becoming more prevalent, then it's because more people prefer it, not because it makes objectively better games. By the same logic, if "fewer buttons" doesn't make objectively better games, then "more buttons" cannot make objectively better games either. As far as MMORPGs go, they are still games. The same logic, that preference and subjectivity determine what's 'good' applies. They also don't operate in a vacuum. People who play MMORPGs also play MOBAs, or single player RPGs. They likely play console games as well as PC games. A player preference, such as limiting the number of buttons can be held by that player regardless of what kind of game they are playing.
    I think a lot of my viewpoints differ because I'm not much of a PvE player as well. I don't even play MMOs that don't offer a decent PvP system, and so I'm obviously in the minority since most people like to just play against computer controlled opponents. PvE is always going to be reduced to the most effective rotation of skills, because you don't really have to react much outside of avoiding AoEs and such. I prefer the more dynamic and competitive experience offered by PvP, and this is where I really dislike the low number of skills. There is very little predicting or anticipating when the opponent only has 5 abilities to use, at least 1 or 2 of which are surely just damage skills.

     

    However, it is as you have pointed out just preference. I'm just in the minority because outsmarting the very easily predictable AI in most MMOs is boring to me.



    Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP.

    I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.

    You're completely missing the point that I've been making. You can't compare games of drastically different genre like TF2 and WoW. I've enjoyed both of these games myself, and obviously TF2 doesn't have 20 abilities because it's an FPS. It's not like I don't play shooters because they have less buttons or something. MMORPGs are completely different kinds of games, and for these SPECIFIC kinds of games I prefer more choices for the reasons I've already outlined. You touched on one of the things I like about it, which is the situational abilities. When it comes to PvP, having more abilities where some of them are situational makes for more interesting combat than 5 homogenized, boring abilities that you can use at seemingly any time.

    Again, these are my opinions. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me and see things the same way that I do, but this type of feature can't be compared between an FPS and an MMORPG. It just doesn't make much sense.

  • stealthbrstealthbr BrasiliaPosts: 1,053Member
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP.

    I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.

     

    Team Fortress 2 is an FPS; we are talking about RPG's. One game is super fast-paced, is purely player skill-based, and requires pinpoint accuracy to win encounters. The other requires players to activate different hotkeys depending on the situation. You can't compare TF2 to an RPG in this regard.

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by olepi

    5 buttons is more than enough? For 2 heals, 4 debuffs, 2 melee attacks, 4 magic attacks, and 2 stuns?

     

    Really?

    Well, you assume a bit.

    suppose the game was set up that the heal grows in intensity over time.

    Suppose there is only one skill and on an enemy it debuffs him and over time it can either apply a different intensity or add adidtional debuffs yet on an ally it heals and perhaps adds a buff?

    A melee attack could be like Oblvion's where you hit the mouse button but the direction of WASD applies a different attack.

    Maybe the magic attack is affected by duration or how "staccato" you hit the attack button.

    Not every game is goiing to have the attacks/debuffs/buffs, etc that you want nor might they need them.

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member
    My question was never answered. What mmorpg has only 5 skills?
  • IDontThinkSoNoIDontThinkSoNo no, NCPosts: 57Member

    I'm happy that MMOs are bringing back basics.  Over the years I've grown tired of bashing my face into the keyboard to fire off 20 useless skills.

     

    Also, easier to play while drunk.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by lizardbones   Originally posted by collekt Originally posted by lizardbones Consoles are on their third generation, and the number of buttons has been locked in for at least two generations. Believe it or not, they had six little colorful candy buttons at one point instead of the four they have now. It's not like the number of active buttons couldn't have been expanded at some point. It would even be in the developers' and console makers' best interests to expand the number of buttons on a controller post launch so that they could sell another set of controllers. It's not like they don't sell additional controllers and stuff to hook up to their systems such as toy guns, keyboards and even mice. An expansion of the number of buttons could jump to consoles, especially with MMORPGs coming to consoles. It just doesn't. As I said, I don't think there's anything objectively better or worse about the number of buttons in any given game, whether it's an MMORPG or not. If "fewer buttons" is becoming more prevalent, then it's because more people prefer it, not because it makes objectively better games. By the same logic, if "fewer buttons" doesn't make objectively better games, then "more buttons" cannot make objectively better games either. As far as MMORPGs go, they are still games. The same logic, that preference and subjectivity determine what's 'good' applies. They also don't operate in a vacuum. People who play MMORPGs also play MOBAs, or single player RPGs. They likely play console games as well as PC games. A player preference, such as limiting the number of buttons can be held by that player regardless of what kind of game they are playing.
    I think a lot of my viewpoints differ because I'm not much of a PvE player as well. I don't even play MMOs that don't offer a decent PvP system, and so I'm obviously in the minority since most people like to just play against computer controlled opponents. PvE is always going to be reduced to the most effective rotation of skills, because you don't really have to react much outside of avoiding AoEs and such. I prefer the more dynamic and competitive experience offered by PvP, and this is where I really dislike the low number of skills. There is very little predicting or anticipating when the opponent only has 5 abilities to use, at least 1 or 2 of which are surely just damage skills.   However, it is as you have pointed out just preference. I'm just in the minority because outsmarting the very easily predictable AI in most MMOs is boring to me.
    Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP. I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.
    You're completely missing the point that I've been making. You can't compare games of drastically different genre like TF2 and WoW. I've enjoyed both of these games myself, and obviously TF2 doesn't have 20 abilities because it's an FPS. It's not like I don't play shooters because they have less buttons or something. MMORPGs are completely different kinds of games, and for these SPECIFIC kinds of games I prefer more choices for the reasons I've already outlined. You touched on one of the things I like about it, which is the situational abilities. When it comes to PvP, having more abilities where some of them are situational makes for more interesting combat than 5 homogenized, boring abilities that you can use at seemingly any time.

    Again, these are my opinions. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me and see things the same way that I do, but this type of feature can't be compared between an FPS and an MMORPG. It just doesn't make much sense.




    I'm not comparing the games, I'm comparing the experience of using very few buttons to the experience of using many buttons. That it happens in an MMORPG or in a team based FPS isn't relevant. Especially when the conversation is limited to PvP only.

    Can you even name an MMORPG with five or fewer skills for comparison?

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by stealthbr
    Originally posted by lizardbones Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP. I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.  
    Team Fortress 2 is an FPS; we are talking about RPG's. One game is super fast-paced, is purely player skill-based, and requires pinpoint accuracy to win encounters. The other requires players to activate different hotkeys depending on the situation. You can't compare TF2 to an RPG in this regard.


    Well, obviously you can. I just did.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Arkade99Arkade99 Parsippany, NJPosts: 120Member Uncommon

    5 unique skills. Each skill changes based on the skill that was used before it (within X seconds). So each skill is actually 5 skills, giving you a total of 25 skills with only 5 buttons.

    Anything else you want me to disprove?

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by djazzy
    My question was never answered. What mmorpg has only 5 skills?

    I think neverwinter only has 5 active skills. Many of the more action based mmos are moving away from skills like block/dodge ect in favor of just making the player move

    I think games could lower the number of skills on the hotbar if they made them situational. Like climbing/swimming/mount are all linked to just the interact button. Many of the combat moves could be simplified so attacks only come up if you're in the right position ( back stab for example ) and could be linked to 1 button.

    I don't really feel that having 16 hotkeys is a good thing. My hand only covers about 5-6 so a system that figures out an innovative way to make that work without dumbing the game down to 2 basic attacks you just do over and over would be a big improvement to having half your keyboard mapped to hotkeys for abilities.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Unless I am getting real utility you don't need a ton of buttons. I don't want 5 different nukes. 10 active abilities is enough really.
  • collektcollekt Meridian, MSPosts: 273Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by lizardbones

    I'm not comparing the games, I'm comparing the experience of using very few buttons to the experience of using many buttons. That it happens in an MMORPG or in a team based FPS isn't relevant. Especially when the conversation is limited to PvP only.

    Can you even name an MMORPG with five or fewer skills for comparison?

     

    Yes, we know what you are comparing. The whole thread is about the feature of using 5 or less buttons. The kind of game you're playing is HUGELY relevant. How can you even claim that it's not? The mechanics are vastly different between the 2 genres, and there is a reason you don't see shooters with lots of abilities. You seem to think the type of game is somehow an abstract concept that doesn't apply, but it definitely does.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by olepi

    I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.

    Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:

    • Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
    • Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
    • Melee attack -- single target
    • Melee attack -- aoe sweep
    • Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
    • Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
    • Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
    • Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
    • Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
    • Stun -- single target
    • Stun -- aoe
    • Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
    • Heal -- single target heals health of ally
    • Heal -- heals power of ally
     
    That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
     
    Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.

    I think u need to diversify the type (and amount) of games you play.

    I'm not sure if you are actually focusing on '5' as the number, or just throwing one out there; but the primary games that use ~5 skills aren't even available on consoles for the most part.

    These games would be MOBAs: (League of Legends, DotA 1 & 2, HoN, SMITE, etc.)

    and A-RPGs: (Diablo 1-3, Path of Exile, Titan Quest, Neverwinter, etc.)

    The number doesn't necessarily have to be '5', but not having a class that can do pretty much everything (the Lore Master) is just good game design. What you are describing is a symptom of single player games. Where balance isn't that big of a factor, because there's only 1 person playing the game.

    In an MMORPG, spreading those skills out makes a lot more sense. It forces players to cooperate, coordinate, and interact with one another. Furthermore it promotes intelligent gameplay, as you need to predict, and utilize your limited resources (skills) to get the most out of a fight, and potentially strategize properly for the outcome. You don't get the answer to every single attack, and thus have to use the skills you do have in creative ways to try and survive attacks you might not be ready for.

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