I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.
Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:
Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
Melee attack -- single target
Melee attack -- aoe sweep
Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
Stun -- single target
Stun -- aoe
Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
Heal -- single target heals health of ally
Heal -- heals power of ally
That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.
And yet the reality is two DPS macros (single target and AoE), a heal, a mana restore and a few CC on the side that you will rarely use. Realistically you only need to use 4 buttons to play a Loremaster unless you are soloing (where you actually need the CC). Even so, you can fit it all on one hotbar. The only thing that changes between fights is which debuffs to use.
My enchanter on EQ2 has 40ish skills, yet I only need 1 buff hotbar and 3 actual macros. More buttons =/= challenging or interesting gameplay.
Even if you flat out refused to use macros as some people on here do, all you are going to do is put your skills in the cast order and then play whack-a-mole. More tedious than challenging. Unless looking at cooldowns is challenging to you?
All of the above could be simplified into:
1 - Single target damage
2 - AoE damage
3 - Debuffs
4 - Single stun
5 - AoE stun
6 - AoE slow / snare
7 - Heal
8 - Power
Oh look, it fits into 8 buttons. Just make the damage skills change visually on each press for variety (since that's how anyone with a brain plays it already anyway).
I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.
Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:
Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
Melee attack -- single target
Melee attack -- aoe sweep
Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
Stun -- single target
Stun -- aoe
Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
Heal -- single target heals health of ally
Heal -- heals power of ally
That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.
And yet the reality is two DPS macros (single target and AoE), a heal, a mana restore and a few CC on the side that you will rarely use. Realistically you only need to use 4 buttons to play a Loremaster unless you are soloing (where you actually need the CC). Even so, you can fit it all on one hotbar. The only thing that changes between fights is which debuffs to use.
My enchanter on EQ2 has 40ish skills, yet I only need 1 buff hotbar and 3 actual macros. More buttons =/= challenging or interesting gameplay.
Even if you flat out refused to use macros as some people on here do, all you are going to do is put your skills in the cast order and then play whack-a-mole. More tedious than challenging. Unless looking at cooldowns is challenging to you?
All of the above could be simplified into:
1 - Single target damage
2 - AoE damage
3 - Debuffs
4 - Single stun
5 - AoE stun
6 - AoE slow / snare
7 - Heal
8 - Power
Oh look, it fits into 8 buttons. Just make the damage skills change visually on each press for variety (since that's how anyone with a brain plays it already anyway).
This may be the case for that game, but I'd rather not have such homogenized skills. There are other types of CC than stun, slow, and snare. There are also different kinds of healing mechanics that can be utilized. There are many things you can do with damage to prevent it from being so straight forward, boring, and brainless.. such as resistances, damage types, damage abilities with secondary effects, etc.
Originally posted by iridescence Originally posted by RidelynnAnd that rather loosly ties into the "I need 85 hotkeys so I can access all of my abilities" arguement - in that while I think players should have access to 85+ different abilities, they should have to pick and choose from them in order to shape their character, and only be able to actually use a select few from that pool at any given time. Not every game subscribes to that philosophy though.
Why? If my character knows how to do something why would he suddenly forget how to do it just because it isn't equipped? This doesn't make sense. There's no reason that games "have to be this way" other than it facilitates the kind of "new" MMO combat that you probably love but I dislike strongly. It's a personal preference. not a "Change is inevitable. Just accept it!" thing. I prefer the older style of MMO combat. Neither one of us is "right". We just like different kinds of games.
If I go strap on a pair of ice-skates, am I still going to be able to kick a football? I didn't forget how to kick the football, it's just my choice in wearing ice-skates rather inhibits my ability to do it.
Originally posted by RidelynnAnd that rather loosly ties into the "I need 85 hotkeys so I can access all of my abilities" arguement - in that while I think players should have access to 85+ different abilities, they should have to pick and choose from them in order to shape their character, and only be able to actually use a select few from that pool at any given time. Not every game subscribes to that philosophy though.
Why? If my character knows how to do something why would he suddenly forget how to do it just because it isn't equipped? This doesn't make sense. There's no reason that games "have to be this way" other than it facilitates the kind of "new" MMO combat that you probably love but I dislike strongly. It's a personal preference. not a "Change is inevitable. Just accept it!" thing. I prefer the older style of MMO combat. Neither one of us is "right". We just like different kinds of games.
If I go strap on a pair of ice-skates, am I still going to be able to kick a football? I didn't forget how to kick the football, it's just my choice in wearing ice-skates rather inhibits my ability to do it.
Same thing with games --
This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......
On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.
Originally posted by RidelynnAnd that rather loosly ties into the "I need 85 hotkeys so I can access all of my abilities" arguement - in that while I think players should have access to 85+ different abilities, they should have to pick and choose from them in order to shape their character, and only be able to actually use a select few from that pool at any given time. Not every game subscribes to that philosophy though.
Why? If my character knows how to do something why would he suddenly forget how to do it just because it isn't equipped? This doesn't make sense. There's no reason that games "have to be this way" other than it facilitates the kind of "new" MMO combat that you probably love but I dislike strongly. It's a personal preference. not a "Change is inevitable. Just accept it!" thing. I prefer the older style of MMO combat. Neither one of us is "right". We just like different kinds of games.
If I go strap on a pair of ice-skates, am I still going to be able to kick a football? I didn't forget how to kick the football, it's just my choice in wearing ice-skates rather inhibits my ability to do it.
Same thing with games --
This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......
On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.
But if he was ice-skating while using the shield he wouldn't be able to dance the fandango.
Don't really like it either, I like to have lots of options in games.
It's not really about having individual skills either, some games might be able to give you a very diverse playstyle with limited buttons but with a deep focus on combo's / movement etc.
But it has to be more than just adding a dodge key.
Feel free to use my referral link for SW:TOR if you want to test out the game. You'll get some special unlocks!
Originally posted by stealthbr This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.
Why would you need different buttons for swinging a sword then? That's what your describing right? Do you need a separate button for riposte? For block? For jab? For feint? For "Whirlwind but in the other direction"? For "Overhead Slash to the left instead of right"? For "Underhanded jab with my left hand while standing on one foot eating a ham sandwich"?
Maybe I'm going a bit overboard, but in your 2 examples, it's already gotten to the point of being ridiculous to me. Why not just "attack with sword" and your character does what he knows with the sword -- if you want to get all jiggy with it and directly control exactly how your character is swinging the sword, then isn't there a Kinect app for that?
I don't need 16 buttons all dealing with how to swing my characters sword. Now, if the game were only in dealing with sword play - say a fencing simulator -- ok, then I could totally understand 16 (or more) buttons for sword play. But in a generic fantasy game, where there are a lot of interesting things to do aside from just swinging a sword, I'd rather have buttons for stuff aside from just telling my character different ways to swing their sword -- because then you've just got to the point of having the player push extra buttons for the sake of pushing buttons under the pretense of adding depth, not because it really has much to do with the gameplay or adding anything meaningful to the complexity of the game.
"I don't need 16 buttons all dealing with how to swing my characters sword. "
As I said in the original post, it might make some sense if you are wielding a specialized weapon like a sword. But in my case. I'm using a staff for everything. There is no changing weapons. All 16 of my skills are used with the staff. So yes, there *are* a lot of ways to use a staff.
Originally posted by stealthbr This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......
On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.
Why would you need different buttons for swinging a sword then? That's what your describing right? Do you need a separate button for riposte? For block? For jab? For feint? For "Whirlwind but in the other direction"? For "Overhead Slash to the left instead of right"? For "Underhanded jab with my left hand while standing on one foot eating a ham sandwich"?
Maybe I'm going a bit overboard, but in your 2 examples, it's already gotten to the point of being ridiculous to me. Why not just "attack with sword" and your character does what he knows with the sword -- if you want to get all jiggy with it and directly control exactly how your character is swinging the sword, then isn't there a Kinect app for that?
I don't need 16 buttons all dealing with how to swing my characters sword. Now, if the game were only in dealing with sword play - say a fencing simulator -- ok, then I could totally understand 16 (or more) buttons for sword play. But in a generic fantasy game, where there are a lot of interesting things to do aside from just swinging a sword, I'd rather have buttons for stuff aside from just telling my character different ways to swing their sword -- because then you've just got to the point of having the player push extra buttons for the sake of pushing buttons under the pretense of adding depth, not because it really has much to do with the gameplay or adding anything meaningful to the complexity of the game.
Um.. okay, this is an easy answer. Overhead Slash could be a strong single-target, instant sword attack while Whirlwind could be a channeled, medium damage, AoE ability. Two very different abilities that both utilize a sword. Rofl dude, edit your previous post because your analogy sucks big time.
Originally posted by collekt Originally posted by lizardbones Consoles are on their third generation, and the number of buttons has been locked in for at least two generations. Believe it or not, they had six little colorful candy buttons at one point instead of the four they have now. It's not like the number of active buttons couldn't have been expanded at some point. It would even be in the developers' and console makers' best interests to expand the number of buttons on a controller post launch so that they could sell another set of controllers. It's not like they don't sell additional controllers and stuff to hook up to their systems such as toy guns, keyboards and even mice. An expansion of the number of buttons could jump to consoles, especially with MMORPGs coming to consoles. It just doesn't. As I said, I don't think there's anything objectively better or worse about the number of buttons in any given game, whether it's an MMORPG or not. If "fewer buttons" is becoming more prevalent, then it's because more people prefer it, not because it makes objectively better games. By the same logic, if "fewer buttons" doesn't make objectively better games, then "more buttons" cannot make objectively better games either. As far as MMORPGs go, they are still games. The same logic, that preference and subjectivity determine what's 'good' applies. They also don't operate in a vacuum. People who play MMORPGs also play MOBAs, or single player RPGs. They likely play console games as well as PC games. A player preference, such as limiting the number of buttons can be held by that player regardless of what kind of game they are playing.
I think a lot of my viewpoints differ because I'm not much of a PvE player as well. I don't even play MMOs that don't offer a decent PvP system, and so I'm obviously in the minority since most people like to just play against computer controlled opponents. PvE is always going to be reduced to the most effective rotation of skills, because you don't really have to react much outside of avoiding AoEs and such. I prefer the more dynamic and competitive experience offered by PvP, and this is where I really dislike the low number of skills. There is very little predicting or anticipating when the opponent only has 5 abilities to use, at least 1 or 2 of which are surely just damage skills.
However, it is as you have pointed out just preference. I'm just in the minority because outsmarting the very easily predictable AI in most MMOs is boring to me.
Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP.
I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by lizardbones Consoles are on their third generation, and the number of buttons has been locked in for at least two generations. Believe it or not, they had six little colorful candy buttons at one point instead of the four they have now. It's not like the number of active buttons couldn't have been expanded at some point. It would even be in the developers' and console makers' best interests to expand the number of buttons on a controller post launch so that they could sell another set of controllers. It's not like they don't sell additional controllers and stuff to hook up to their systems such as toy guns, keyboards and even mice. An expansion of the number of buttons could jump to consoles, especially with MMORPGs coming to consoles. It just doesn't. As I said, I don't think there's anything objectively better or worse about the number of buttons in any given game, whether it's an MMORPG or not. If "fewer buttons" is becoming more prevalent, then it's because more people prefer it, not because it makes objectively better games. By the same logic, if "fewer buttons" doesn't make objectively better games, then "more buttons" cannot make objectively better games either. As far as MMORPGs go, they are still games. The same logic, that preference and subjectivity determine what's 'good' applies. They also don't operate in a vacuum. People who play MMORPGs also play MOBAs, or single player RPGs. They likely play console games as well as PC games. A player preference, such as limiting the number of buttons can be held by that player regardless of what kind of game they are playing.
I think a lot of my viewpoints differ because I'm not much of a PvE player as well. I don't even play MMOs that don't offer a decent PvP system, and so I'm obviously in the minority since most people like to just play against computer controlled opponents. PvE is always going to be reduced to the most effective rotation of skills, because you don't really have to react much outside of avoiding AoEs and such. I prefer the more dynamic and competitive experience offered by PvP, and this is where I really dislike the low number of skills. There is very little predicting or anticipating when the opponent only has 5 abilities to use, at least 1 or 2 of which are surely just damage skills.
However, it is as you have pointed out just preference. I'm just in the minority because outsmarting the very easily predictable AI in most MMOs is boring to me.
Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP.
I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.
You're completely missing the point that I've been making. You can't compare games of drastically different genre like TF2 and WoW. I've enjoyed both of these games myself, and obviously TF2 doesn't have 20 abilities because it's an FPS. It's not like I don't play shooters because they have less buttons or something. MMORPGs are completely different kinds of games, and for these SPECIFIC kinds of games I prefer more choices for the reasons I've already outlined. You touched on one of the things I like about it, which is the situational abilities. When it comes to PvP, having more abilities where some of them are situational makes for more interesting combat than 5 homogenized, boring abilities that you can use at seemingly any time.
Again, these are my opinions. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me and see things the same way that I do, but this type of feature can't be compared between an FPS and an MMORPG. It just doesn't make much sense.
Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP.
I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.
Team Fortress 2 is an FPS; we are talking about RPG's. One game is super fast-paced, is purely player skill-based, and requires pinpoint accuracy to win encounters. The other requires players to activate different hotkeys depending on the situation. You can't compare TF2 to an RPG in this regard.
5 buttons is more than enough? For 2 heals, 4 debuffs, 2 melee attacks, 4 magic attacks, and 2 stuns?
Really?
Well, you assume a bit.
suppose the game was set up that the heal grows in intensity over time.
Suppose there is only one skill and on an enemy it debuffs him and over time it can either apply a different intensity or add adidtional debuffs yet on an ally it heals and perhaps adds a buff?
A melee attack could be like Oblvion's where you hit the mouse button but the direction of WASD applies a different attack.
Maybe the magic attack is affected by duration or how "staccato" you hit the attack button.
Not every game is goiing to have the attacks/debuffs/buffs, etc that you want nor might they need them.
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Originally posted by collekt Originally posted by lizardbonesOriginally posted by collektOriginally posted by lizardbones Consoles are on their third generation, and the number of buttons has been locked in for at least two generations. Believe it or not, they had six little colorful candy buttons at one point instead of the four they have now. It's not like the number of active buttons couldn't have been expanded at some point. It would even be in the developers' and console makers' best interests to expand the number of buttons on a controller post launch so that they could sell another set of controllers. It's not like they don't sell additional controllers and stuff to hook up to their systems such as toy guns, keyboards and even mice. An expansion of the number of buttons could jump to consoles, especially with MMORPGs coming to consoles. It just doesn't. As I said, I don't think there's anything objectively better or worse about the number of buttons in any given game, whether it's an MMORPG or not. If "fewer buttons" is becoming more prevalent, then it's because more people prefer it, not because it makes objectively better games. By the same logic, if "fewer buttons" doesn't make objectively better games, then "more buttons" cannot make objectively better games either. As far as MMORPGs go, they are still games. The same logic, that preference and subjectivity determine what's 'good' applies. They also don't operate in a vacuum. People who play MMORPGs also play MOBAs, or single player RPGs. They likely play console games as well as PC games. A player preference, such as limiting the number of buttons can be held by that player regardless of what kind of game they are playing.
I think a lot of my viewpoints differ because I'm not much of a PvE player as well. I don't even play MMOs that don't offer a decent PvP system, and so I'm obviously in the minority since most people like to just play against computer controlled opponents. PvE is always going to be reduced to the most effective rotation of skills, because you don't really have to react much outside of avoiding AoEs and such. I prefer the more dynamic and competitive experience offered by PvP, and this is where I really dislike the low number of skills. There is very little predicting or anticipating when the opponent only has 5 abilities to use, at least 1 or 2 of which are surely just damage skills.However, it is as you have pointed out just preference. I'm just in the minority because outsmarting the very easily predictable AI in most MMOs is boring to me. Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP. I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.You're completely missing the point that I've been making. You can't compare games of drastically different genre like TF2 and WoW. I've enjoyed both of these games myself, and obviously TF2 doesn't have 20 abilities because it's an FPS. It's not like I don't play shooters because they have less buttons or something. MMORPGs are completely different kinds of games, and for these SPECIFIC kinds of games I prefer more choices for the reasons I've already outlined. You touched on one of the things I like about it, which is the situational abilities. When it comes to PvP, having more abilities where some of them are situational makes for more interesting combat than 5 homogenized, boring abilities that you can use at seemingly any time.
Again, these are my opinions. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me and see things the same way that I do, but this type of feature can't be compared between an FPS and an MMORPG. It just doesn't make much sense.
I'm not comparing the games, I'm comparing the experience of using very few buttons to the experience of using many buttons. That it happens in an MMORPG or in a team based FPS isn't relevant. Especially when the conversation is limited to PvP only.
Can you even name an MMORPG with five or fewer skills for comparison?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by stealthbr Originally posted by lizardbones Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP. I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.
Team Fortress 2 is an FPS; we are talking about RPG's. One game is super fast-paced, is purely player skill-based, and requires pinpoint accuracy to win encounters. The other requires players to activate different hotkeys depending on the situation. You can't compare TF2 to an RPG in this regard.
Well, obviously you can. I just did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
5 unique skills. Each skill changes based on the skill that was used before it (within X seconds). So each skill is actually 5 skills, giving you a total of 25 skills with only 5 buttons.
Originally posted by djazzy My question was never answered. What mmorpg has only 5 skills?
I think neverwinter only has 5 active skills. Many of the more action based mmos are moving away from skills like block/dodge ect in favor of just making the player move
I think games could lower the number of skills on the hotbar if they made them situational. Like climbing/swimming/mount are all linked to just the interact button. Many of the combat moves could be simplified so attacks only come up if you're in the right position ( back stab for example ) and could be linked to 1 button.
I don't really feel that having 16 hotkeys is a good thing. My hand only covers about 5-6 so a system that figures out an innovative way to make that work without dumbing the game down to 2 basic attacks you just do over and over would be a big improvement to having half your keyboard mapped to hotkeys for abilities.
I'm not comparing the games, I'm comparing the experience of using very few buttons to the experience of using many buttons. That it happens in an MMORPG or in a team based FPS isn't relevant. Especially when the conversation is limited to PvP only.
Can you even name an MMORPG with five or fewer skills for comparison?
Yes, we know what you are comparing. The whole thread is about the feature of using 5 or less buttons. The kind of game you're playing is HUGELY relevant. How can you even claim that it's not? The mechanics are vastly different between the 2 genres, and there is a reason you don't see shooters with lots of abilities. You seem to think the type of game is somehow an abstract concept that doesn't apply, but it definitely does.
I think limiting players in MMORPG's to 5 skills is ridiculous. The main reason to do it is because of the limitations of consoles, not because it is better for the game. There is just no way 5 skills could come close to what I do when playing an MMORPG.
Example: I'm playing LoTRO as a "utility" type class, a Lore Master. It is with utility classes that the limitation to 5 skills breaks down the worst. Skills I regularly use every fight:
Debuff -- slows enemy attack speed down 15%
Debuff -- reduces enemy melee damage
Debuff -- reduces enemy magic damage
Debuff -- reduces enemy resistances
Melee attack -- single target
Melee attack -- aoe sweep
Magic attack -- single target (burning embers)
Magic attack -- single target (gust of wind)
Magic attack -- aoe (cracked earth)
Magic attack -- single target with stun (Light of the rising sun)
Magic attack -- aoe (sticky gourd)
Stun -- single target
Stun -- aoe
Sticky Tar -- aoe slow area and +dmg taken
Heal -- single target heals health of ally
Heal -- heals power of ally
That's 16 abilities that I will regularly use in a fight, not even counting my pet, based on what is needed. That is the whole point of a utility class: that they have a lot of different abilities to choose from and can pop out the right ability at the right time. Limiting a player to 5 abilities is ridiculous.
Perhaps it makes some sense for a very specialized character, like a sword wielding fighter. How many different ways can you wield a sword anyway? But for a utility class, it is completely over-restrictive and destroys the whole concept of a utility class. The only reason to do it is because the consoles have such a crappy interface, at least for MMORPG's.
I think u need to diversify the type (and amount) of games you play.
I'm not sure if you are actually focusing on '5' as the number, or just throwing one out there; but the primary games that use ~5 skills aren't even available on consoles for the most part.
These games would be MOBAs: (League of Legends, DotA 1 & 2, HoN, SMITE, etc.)
and A-RPGs: (Diablo 1-3, Path of Exile, Titan Quest, Neverwinter, etc.)
The number doesn't necessarily have to be '5', but not having a class that can do pretty much everything (the Lore Master) is just good game design. What you are describing is a symptom of single player games. Where balance isn't that big of a factor, because there's only 1 person playing the game.
In an MMORPG, spreading those skills out makes a lot more sense. It forces players to cooperate, coordinate, and interact with one another. Furthermore it promotes intelligent gameplay, as you need to predict, and utilize your limited resources (skills) to get the most out of a fight, and potentially strategize properly for the outcome. You don't get the answer to every single attack, and thus have to use the skills you do have in creative ways to try and survive attacks you might not be ready for.
Originally posted by djazzy My question was never answered. What mmorpg has only 5 skills?
I think neverwinter only has 5 active skills. Many of the more action based mmos are moving away from skills like block/dodge ect in favor of just making the player move
I think games could lower the number of skills on the hotbar if they made them situational. Like climbing/swimming/mount are all linked to just the interact button. Many of the combat moves could be simplified so attacks only come up if you're in the right position ( back stab for example ) and could be linked to 1 button.
I don't really feel that having 16 hotkeys is a good thing. My hand only covers about 5-6 so a system that figures out an innovative way to make that work without dumbing the game down to 2 basic attacks you just do over and over would be a big improvement to having half your keyboard mapped to hotkeys for abilities.
The problem with your situational approach here, is that you will end up using an ability you didn't want to use and thus wasting whatever resource you use on it. Let's take an example from a game most people are familiar with, WoW. Say I'm playing a rogue, I have backstab and hemorrhage bound to my 1 key. I'm moving around trying to line up a backstab, but the opponent moves at the last second and I end up using a hemorrhage instead because I'm no longer behind the target. I've effectively wasted energy on a lower damage ability that I wasn't intending to use.
On the other hand, if I have backstab bound to 1 and hemorrhage to 2, then I can use each one when I intend to without worrying about wasting resources. Sure, it requires an extra key but I'd gladly take that route over the former.
Originally posted by lizardbones I'm not comparing the games, I'm comparing the experience of using very few buttons to the experience of using many buttons. That it happens in an MMORPG or in a team based FPS isn't relevant. Especially when the conversation is limited to PvP only. Can you even name an MMORPG with five or fewer skills for comparison?
Yes, we know what you are comparing. The whole thread is about the feature of using 5 or less buttons. The kind of game you're playing is HUGELY relevant. How can you even claim that it's not? The mechanics are vastly different between the 2 genres, and there is a reason you don't see shooters with lots of abilities. You seem to think the type of game is somehow an abstract concept that doesn't apply, but it definitely does.
The discussion has centered around combat. Nobody has discussed how having twenty abilities enhances walking into an auction house or resting between encounters. In that regard, it's perfectly fair to compare a game with 1 button to a game with 20 buttons if the discussion is about the number of buttons, which apparently, it is.
But just in case, how does having twenty skills or buttons affect anything outside of combat?
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If the mechanics in other games aren't relevant, then why are those mechanics showing up in upcoming MMORPGs?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Originally posted by lizardbones I'm not comparing the games, I'm comparing the experience of using very few buttons to the experience of using many buttons. That it happens in an MMORPG or in a team based FPS isn't relevant. Especially when the conversation is limited to PvP only. Can you even name an MMORPG with five or fewer skills for comparison?
Yes, we know what you are comparing. The whole thread is about the feature of using 5 or less buttons. The kind of game you're playing is HUGELY relevant. How can you even claim that it's not? The mechanics are vastly different between the 2 genres, and there is a reason you don't see shooters with lots of abilities. You seem to think the type of game is somehow an abstract concept that doesn't apply, but it definitely does.
The discussion has centered around combat. Nobody has discussed how having twenty abilities enhances walking into an auction house or resting between encounters. In that regard, it's perfectly fair to compare a game with 1 button to a game with 20 buttons if the discussion is about the number of buttons, which apparently, it is.
But just in case, how does having twenty skills or buttons affect anything outside of combat?
It doesn't, and if you can point out where I mentioned anything outside of combat I'd be astonished. The point is that the way combat works in an FPS and the way it works in an MMORPG are incredibly different. The discussion is about the number of buttons IN AN MMORPG, please check the title of the thread.
Edit: You'll have to point out what mechanics/games you're talking about here. I can't read your mind.
Comments
And yet the reality is two DPS macros (single target and AoE), a heal, a mana restore and a few CC on the side that you will rarely use. Realistically you only need to use 4 buttons to play a Loremaster unless you are soloing (where you actually need the CC). Even so, you can fit it all on one hotbar. The only thing that changes between fights is which debuffs to use.
My enchanter on EQ2 has 40ish skills, yet I only need 1 buff hotbar and 3 actual macros. More buttons =/= challenging or interesting gameplay.
Even if you flat out refused to use macros as some people on here do, all you are going to do is put your skills in the cast order and then play whack-a-mole. More tedious than challenging. Unless looking at cooldowns is challenging to you?
All of the above could be simplified into:
1 - Single target damage
2 - AoE damage
3 - Debuffs
4 - Single stun
5 - AoE stun
6 - AoE slow / snare
7 - Heal
8 - Power
Oh look, it fits into 8 buttons. Just make the damage skills change visually on each press for variety (since that's how anyone with a brain plays it already anyway).
This may be the case for that game, but I'd rather not have such homogenized skills. There are other types of CC than stun, slow, and snare. There are also different kinds of healing mechanics that can be utilized. There are many things you can do with damage to prevent it from being so straight forward, boring, and brainless.. such as resistances, damage types, damage abilities with secondary effects, etc.
If I go strap on a pair of ice-skates, am I still going to be able to kick a football? I didn't forget how to kick the football, it's just my choice in wearing ice-skates rather inhibits my ability to do it.
Same thing with games --
This analogy is terrible lol..... He's talking about skills, you're talking about gear. In most games, a character can't use a shield if he has a two-handed sword equipped, but that doesn't mean he forgot how to use a shield......
On the other hand, it does not seem plausible that a character suddenly "unlearns" how to use his "Whirlwind" attack because he placed his "Overhead Slash" attack on his hotbar.
But if he was ice-skating while using the shield he wouldn't be able to dance the fandango.
Don't really like it either, I like to have lots of options in games.
It's not really about having individual skills either, some games might be able to give you a very diverse playstyle with limited buttons but with a deep focus on combo's / movement etc.
But it has to be more than just adding a dodge key.
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Why would you need different buttons for swinging a sword then? That's what your describing right? Do you need a separate button for riposte? For block? For jab? For feint? For "Whirlwind but in the other direction"? For "Overhead Slash to the left instead of right"? For "Underhanded jab with my left hand while standing on one foot eating a ham sandwich"?
Maybe I'm going a bit overboard, but in your 2 examples, it's already gotten to the point of being ridiculous to me. Why not just "attack with sword" and your character does what he knows with the sword -- if you want to get all jiggy with it and directly control exactly how your character is swinging the sword, then isn't there a Kinect app for that?
I don't need 16 buttons all dealing with how to swing my characters sword. Now, if the game were only in dealing with sword play - say a fencing simulator -- ok, then I could totally understand 16 (or more) buttons for sword play. But in a generic fantasy game, where there are a lot of interesting things to do aside from just swinging a sword, I'd rather have buttons for stuff aside from just telling my character different ways to swing their sword -- because then you've just got to the point of having the player push extra buttons for the sake of pushing buttons under the pretense of adding depth, not because it really has much to do with the gameplay or adding anything meaningful to the complexity of the game.
"I don't need 16 buttons all dealing with how to swing my characters sword. "
As I said in the original post, it might make some sense if you are wielding a specialized weapon like a sword. But in my case. I'm using a staff for everything. There is no changing weapons. All 16 of my skills are used with the staff. So yes, there *are* a lot of ways to use a staff.
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2024: 47 years on the Net.
Um.. okay, this is an easy answer. Overhead Slash could be a strong single-target, instant sword attack while Whirlwind could be a channeled, medium damage, AoE ability. Two very different abilities that both utilize a sword. Rofl dude, edit your previous post because your analogy sucks big time.
However, it is as you have pointed out just preference. I'm just in the minority because outsmarting the very easily predictable AI in most MMOs is boring to me.
Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP.
I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
You're completely missing the point that I've been making. You can't compare games of drastically different genre like TF2 and WoW. I've enjoyed both of these games myself, and obviously TF2 doesn't have 20 abilities because it's an FPS. It's not like I don't play shooters because they have less buttons or something. MMORPGs are completely different kinds of games, and for these SPECIFIC kinds of games I prefer more choices for the reasons I've already outlined. You touched on one of the things I like about it, which is the situational abilities. When it comes to PvP, having more abilities where some of them are situational makes for more interesting combat than 5 homogenized, boring abilities that you can use at seemingly any time.
Again, these are my opinions. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me and see things the same way that I do, but this type of feature can't be compared between an FPS and an MMORPG. It just doesn't make much sense.
Team Fortress 2 is an FPS; we are talking about RPG's. One game is super fast-paced, is purely player skill-based, and requires pinpoint accuracy to win encounters. The other requires players to activate different hotkeys depending on the situation. You can't compare TF2 to an RPG in this regard.
Well, you assume a bit.
suppose the game was set up that the heal grows in intensity over time.
Suppose there is only one skill and on an enemy it debuffs him and over time it can either apply a different intensity or add adidtional debuffs yet on an ally it heals and perhaps adds a buff?
A melee attack could be like Oblvion's where you hit the mouse button but the direction of WASD applies a different attack.
Maybe the magic attack is affected by duration or how "staccato" you hit the attack button.
Not every game is goiing to have the attacks/debuffs/buffs, etc that you want nor might they need them.
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Serph toze kindly has started a walk-through. https://youtu.be/UIelCK-lldo
I'm happy that MMOs are bringing back basics. Over the years I've grown tired of bashing my face into the keyboard to fire off 20 useless skills.
Also, easier to play while drunk.
Well, if your preference is many buttons over few buttons, then it doesn't really matter how engaging the combat is, if that feature is missing. It doesn't matter how fun the combat is in Team Fortress 2, if you just don't like having very few skills available at any given time. Conversely, it doesn't matter how well Blizzard has put together their combat, if you really only want to use four buttons at a time. Me, I've had fun in both Team Fortress 2, and in WoW, both PvE and PvP. I spent years in WoW's battlegrounds and in the open PvP areas. It was a lot of fun, and part of that was how they setup the abilities. There were a lot of abilities to use, and many of them were useful and situational. At the same time, I spent a lot of time in TF2, where I had very few abilities, even counting all the available weapons I could carry at any given time. I think the common factor there was that Blizzard and Valve both committed 100% to the combat systems they used. There was none of that "hybrid" nonsense. In WoW you had twenty abilities on deck, and you used all of them, even if they were similar. In TF2, you pretty much had your left mouse button, and you used it.
You're completely missing the point that I've been making. You can't compare games of drastically different genre like TF2 and WoW. I've enjoyed both of these games myself, and obviously TF2 doesn't have 20 abilities because it's an FPS. It's not like I don't play shooters because they have less buttons or something. MMORPGs are completely different kinds of games, and for these SPECIFIC kinds of games I prefer more choices for the reasons I've already outlined. You touched on one of the things I like about it, which is the situational abilities. When it comes to PvP, having more abilities where some of them are situational makes for more interesting combat than 5 homogenized, boring abilities that you can use at seemingly any time.
Again, these are my opinions. I'm not expecting everyone to agree with me and see things the same way that I do, but this type of feature can't be compared between an FPS and an MMORPG. It just doesn't make much sense.
I'm not comparing the games, I'm comparing the experience of using very few buttons to the experience of using many buttons. That it happens in an MMORPG or in a team based FPS isn't relevant. Especially when the conversation is limited to PvP only.
Can you even name an MMORPG with five or fewer skills for comparison?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
Well, obviously you can. I just did.
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
5 unique skills. Each skill changes based on the skill that was used before it (within X seconds). So each skill is actually 5 skills, giving you a total of 25 skills with only 5 buttons.
Anything else you want me to disprove?
I think neverwinter only has 5 active skills. Many of the more action based mmos are moving away from skills like block/dodge ect in favor of just making the player move
I think games could lower the number of skills on the hotbar if they made them situational. Like climbing/swimming/mount are all linked to just the interact button. Many of the combat moves could be simplified so attacks only come up if you're in the right position ( back stab for example ) and could be linked to 1 button.
I don't really feel that having 16 hotkeys is a good thing. My hand only covers about 5-6 so a system that figures out an innovative way to make that work without dumbing the game down to 2 basic attacks you just do over and over would be a big improvement to having half your keyboard mapped to hotkeys for abilities.
Yes, we know what you are comparing. The whole thread is about the feature of using 5 or less buttons. The kind of game you're playing is HUGELY relevant. How can you even claim that it's not? The mechanics are vastly different between the 2 genres, and there is a reason you don't see shooters with lots of abilities. You seem to think the type of game is somehow an abstract concept that doesn't apply, but it definitely does.
I think u need to diversify the type (and amount) of games you play.
I'm not sure if you are actually focusing on '5' as the number, or just throwing one out there; but the primary games that use ~5 skills aren't even available on consoles for the most part.
These games would be MOBAs: (League of Legends, DotA 1 & 2, HoN, SMITE, etc.)
and A-RPGs: (Diablo 1-3, Path of Exile, Titan Quest, Neverwinter, etc.)
The number doesn't necessarily have to be '5', but not having a class that can do pretty much everything (the Lore Master) is just good game design. What you are describing is a symptom of single player games. Where balance isn't that big of a factor, because there's only 1 person playing the game.
In an MMORPG, spreading those skills out makes a lot more sense. It forces players to cooperate, coordinate, and interact with one another. Furthermore it promotes intelligent gameplay, as you need to predict, and utilize your limited resources (skills) to get the most out of a fight, and potentially strategize properly for the outcome. You don't get the answer to every single attack, and thus have to use the skills you do have in creative ways to try and survive attacks you might not be ready for.
The problem with your situational approach here, is that you will end up using an ability you didn't want to use and thus wasting whatever resource you use on it. Let's take an example from a game most people are familiar with, WoW. Say I'm playing a rogue, I have backstab and hemorrhage bound to my 1 key. I'm moving around trying to line up a backstab, but the opponent moves at the last second and I end up using a hemorrhage instead because I'm no longer behind the target. I've effectively wasted energy on a lower damage ability that I wasn't intending to use.
On the other hand, if I have backstab bound to 1 and hemorrhage to 2, then I can use each one when I intend to without worrying about wasting resources. Sure, it requires an extra key but I'd gladly take that route over the former.
The discussion has centered around combat. Nobody has discussed how having twenty abilities enhances walking into an auction house or resting between encounters. In that regard, it's perfectly fair to compare a game with 1 button to a game with 20 buttons if the discussion is about the number of buttons, which apparently, it is.
But just in case, how does having twenty skills or buttons affect anything outside of combat?
**
If the mechanics in other games aren't relevant, then why are those mechanics showing up in upcoming MMORPGs?
I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.
It doesn't, and if you can point out where I mentioned anything outside of combat I'd be astonished. The point is that the way combat works in an FPS and the way it works in an MMORPG are incredibly different. The discussion is about the number of buttons IN AN MMORPG, please check the title of the thread.
Edit: You'll have to point out what mechanics/games you're talking about here. I can't read your mind.