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Without 15-20 active skills/spells in the PC version, Wildstar will fail in the long run

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  • BadOrbBadOrb ManchesterPosts: 791Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous

    I personally have yet to see an mmo I enjoyed using "console friendly" hotkey bars.

     

    It is a primary reason I do not enjoy those mmos. It is a major consideration when choosing an mmo. Dumbing down mmos to allow console conversion does not and will not sit well with many pc gamers.

     

    The issue is so important to me that I cannot play TSW even though I absolutely love many elements to the game. Having so few powers to use in today's mmo that are extremely combat heavy makes a game so boring to me that I now see it as a major turn off.

     

    I am sure many other pc gamers feel the same way. A console game is only played for a short duration by most players before moving on to another. An mmo must grab your attention for years and 7-8 buttons if a game killer for many.

    Nothing to do with consoles , I use 40 skills on my 360 controller in SWTOR. Also PSU an MMO lasted 7 years on the xbox 360 , so not sure what to think. I do realise that PC MMO's mostly last longer than 7 years but not by much on average I should imagine. Try not to blame consoles for the dev's of this game's decisions thank you.

    One hot bar does sound a little limiting though IMO.

    Cheers,

    BadOrb.

    PSO 4 years , EQOA 4 months , PSU 7 years , SWTOR launch ongoing , PSO2 SEA launch ongoing , Destiny 360 launch ongoing.
    "SWG was not fun. Let it go buddy." quote from iiNoSkillzii 10/18/13
    The original propoganda pixie dust villain :[]

  • udonudon Durham, NCPosts: 1,767Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by reckoner2
    Originally posted by Mechanism

    Every class gets at least 30 abilities to choose from, that seems like a lot of variety. And with all the combinations possible you're not not so likely to find two people with the same selection, so that's like variety squared.

    My point is variety in active combat, it is not about variety when you are sitting at a skill/ability screen.

    You barely have enough room for any utility abilities or defense buffs with 10 total skills if you are a DPS class for example. So the range of things your character can do in a fight is severely limited, that is the point. 

     

    And again, I am asking for around 15-20 actions, not 1 million like other posters here have implied.

    That is sort of the whole point of limited action bars isn't it?  To give you the option to play multiple roles but force you to decide how much flexibility you want compared to a pure role build.  I mean you can be a healer that does DPS but you won't have the slots to be a top end healer and top end DPSer at the same time.  You have to decide how much healing and DPS you want for the content your doing.  Abilities from the two roles are competing for slots on your hot bar.

    Games with lots of action bars either limit your ability to do more than one role at class selection or they limit it with other things like talent/aa trees.  Games with limited action sets limit it with the number of abilities you can have on your action bar at any one time.  It's a different ways to look at the problem and I don't know if I would call any of them bad although i am not a fan of limiting by class selection because it is the most difficult of the bunch to change short of rolling a different class.

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

    Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

    I find it rather amusing.

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by JemAs666
    If mobs lived longer than ~10 seconds in modern MMOs, having more skills might make sense.  In the current MMO this is not the case and people only use 1 to 5 skills.  Lets face it, most people don't pay attention enough these days to play a game that involves 15-20 skill rotations.  They are too involved with watching TV, sitting on the toilet, or eating to waste time paying attention to more than mashing 1-5 on their keyboard.  In the EQ days the average player didn't have resources to have 9 monitors with 5 games going on at the same time, watching youtube, hulu, netflix, porn, and  25 different websites opened all at the same time.

    I'd love to see someone do those things playing Path of Exile while mapping in level 74 maps or Merciless Dominus.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • RoguewizRoguewiz Lampasas, TXPosts: 614Member Uncommon

    Even IF they gave us 15-20 skills to use at anytime, let's get something straight.

    1.  Some skills will be more powerful than others, and thus making the other skills useless.

    2.  Some skills will be situationally useless

    3.  Some skills will share cooldowns with other similar skills.

    Don't even get me started on balance issues.

    Ultimately, the player will use the best skills available, and thus other skills will not be used or taken.

    Raquelis in various games
    Played: Everything
    Playing: League of Legends, EQ1 (Ragefire Lockjaw), Dark Souls II, Hearthstone
    Wants: The World
    Anticipating: Everquest Next Crowfall!!!

    Tank - Healer - Support: The REAL Trinity
  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,125Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

    Utterly and completely false and based upon assumptions.

     

    Many mmos based on pc will have many hotkeys from now and into the future. It depends on what sort of game they are trying to make. CU will have many hotkeys because it is trying to attract old school mmo players and dedicate it's design for pc gaming. It is an important selling point for many of the contributors and for pc gamers in general.

     

    Do not think that pc and console markets are so easily bridged. Genre will drive indie development as they must choose their audience carefully. Games will always offer choices between combat systems depending on what they are designed for and this will always differ between pc and consoles. You cannot have certain levels of combat complexity within various genres by restriction hotkeys simply because you want portability to console.

    You stay sassy!

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

    Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

    I find it rather amusing.

    I played WoW for 6 years.  Mains were a Druid, Shaman, Warrior and finally a DK.  On average I rarely used more then 7-9 skills in a fight.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,066Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

    Utterly and completely false and based upon assumptions.

     

    Many mmos based on pc will have many hotkeys from now and into the future. It depends on what sort of game they are trying to make. CU will have many hotkeys because it is trying to attract old school mmo players and dedicate it's design for pc gaming. It is an important selling point for many of the contributors and for pc gamers in general.

     

    Do not think that pc and console markets are so easily bridged. Genre will drive indie development as they must choose their audience carefully. Games will always offer choices between combat systems depending on what they are designed for and this will always differ between pc and consoles. You cannot have certain levels of combat complexity within various genres by restriction hotkeys simply because you want portability to console.

    And CU is not a big budget Triple-A game.  Thanks for proving my point.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • reckoner2reckoner2 Erlanger, KYPosts: 27Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

    Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,658Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

    Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

    I find it rather amusing.

    It is amusing.

    Amusing that it began the shift away from variance. attack type and various other elements of gameplay because combat was dumbed down to Whack-A-Mole: Cooldown Edition.  Something active again? MASH IT! So what it's a fireball that you're using on that magma golem... it's still extra DPS, right?

    In order for CD to be entertaining and usable, most of the surrounding factors in combat had to be minimized or completely removed, for good or bad.

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • djazzydjazzy louisville, COPosts: 3,578Member
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    "Without 15-20 active skills/spells in the PC version, Wildstar will fail in the long run"

    A classic example of the baggage that MMO gamers bring to the genre.

    indeed

  • coretex666coretex666 PraguePosts: 1,934Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

    Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

    I find it rather amusing.

    It is amusing.

    Amusing that it began the shift away from variance. attack type and various other elements of gameplay because combat was dumbed down to Whack-A-Mole: Cooldown Edition.  Something active again? MASH IT! So what it's a fireball that you're using on that magma golem... it's still extra DPS, right?

    In order for CD to be entertaining and usable, most of the surrounding factors in combat had to be minimized or completely removed, for good or bad.

     

    You do realize I was referring to that one particular sentence, right.

     

    Waiting for L2 EU Classic

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by azzamasin
    Originally posted by coretex666 Originally posted by azzamasin The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend.    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.
    Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this? I find it rather amusing.
    I played WoW for 6 years.  Mains were a Druid, Shaman, Warrior and finally a DK.  On average I rarely used more then 7-9 skills in a fight.


    Yeah, I would have to agree with this. You would use more skills in PvP combat, but rarely more than a single bar's worth of skills on a regular basis. This was without macros too.

    I've had dynamic and interesting combat using a couple of buttons in single player console games, and I've had interesting combat using a Razer Naga mouse too. The difference in combat wasn't the number of buttons though. It was how the combat was presented, how interactive it was and how responsive the combat was to the things I was doing.

    I think a key element is how committed a developer is to the type of combat they've chosen. WoW is tab target, hot key combat, but they have totally committed to it. The same can be said for Bioshock Infinite, except it is FPS combat based on aim, movement and ammo management. TSW on the other hand didn't really seem to commit to the tab target combat, and tried to give a nod to action based combat. The result doesn't really deliver. Not because of the number of buttons the player has active at any given time, but because the developer seems to have gotten wishy washy with the combat style. If that makes sense.

    So I don't think the number of active buttons is going to have anything to do with WildStar's success. They could have six or sixty potentially active skills and do very well with it or do horrible with it.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • Butch808Butch808 sheffieldPosts: 319Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by reckoner2
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

    Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

    You got it backwards my friend, what done is done, the industry doesn't go backwards, the industry won't go backwards.. only forward and eventually games change, hence why we aren't still playing Pong.

  • kilunkilun Apopka, FLPosts: 709Member Common
    Originally posted by reckoner2
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

    Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

    So you literally just said the success of WOW has to do with the amount of skills and hotbars?  

    www.ozumgames.com

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,125Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Roguewiz

    Even IF they gave us 15-20 skills to use at anytime, let's get something straight.

    1.  Some skills will be more powerful than others, and thus making the other skills useless.

    2.  Some skills will be situationally useless

    3.  Some skills will share cooldowns with other similar skills.

    Don't even get me started on balance issues.

    Ultimately, the player will use the best skills available, and thus other skills will not be used or taken.

    Ask any player from popular mmos using many hotkeys how many they use on average in combat in various situations. Most will say they use nearly all their abilities. Smart design will drive this.

     

    I personally used nearly every power (within spec) in most of these types of mmos. My warlock in Wow had to use most of his powers or die. My Monk as well. In Swtor my sniper/slingers (I played both) always used most of their powers in pvp and group play.

     

    Balance issues is a myth as well. I have not seen one skill based game that has not become anything more than cookie cutter builds where the majority of free range skills are ignored. Balancing skills against each other across the board is a balancing nightmare. Classes have ALWAYS been easier to balance which is why most of the games went with classes to begin with. Reticle games always become simplistic as you mostly just point and click. This often limits combo options and also becomes little more than click fests. It is real time combat or "twitch" which is based more on player skill then character skill. If you do not know that difference then you do not know what an rpg is versus a FPS.

     

    Developers make a conscience choice when choosing such mechanics. They choose then for a reason and for each choice there are drawbacks. Each choice changes fundamental development directions. A different game is made because of it therefore other games not making the same choices will be entirely different.

     

    I would love to know the reason for limiting a pc only mmo to 7 skills. Because they thing players are stupid? Because the millions and millions of players playing with many hotkeys already complained for 15 years? No. The ONLY reason why some mmos are coming out with 7-8 hotkeys is for console porting and for arcade style action that puts demands on movement more than strategic planning. This pushes those mmos into different genres and therefore different audiences. Do not even think for a second it is because players have been demanding this for years.

    You stay sassy!

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAPosts: 834Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by coretex666
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

    Any active or former WoW player would like to comment on this?

    I find it rather amusing.

    You can find it amusing all you want.  But, this is fact.  I went back to WoW recently just to see what the game is like now (I quit during Wotlk).  I have 3 90s.  None of them ever use more then 8-12 (12 being pretty situational and rare) abilities in end game.  You are part of the minority of mmo gamers who can't adapt to the changing wave of new mmos.  It's very obvious.  Thing is, in a tab target game like WoW.  You can get away with more abilities because you are not dodging and moving as much as an action mmo.   But, you still rarely use more then 8 abilities.   Unless you count 60 min buffs part of your rotation lol.

  • TamanousTamanous Edmonton, ABPosts: 2,125Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by kilun
    Originally posted by reckoner2
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

    Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

    So you literally just said the success of WOW has to do with the amount of skills and hotbars?  

    It is a factor to the longevity of the game. It is the fundamental mechanic for how your toon interacts in game. Nearly all content is based upon combat. You suggest that an 8 year old game with millions of players and many other mmos adding to many millions more over 15 years had nothing to do with it's combat mechanics?

     

    Do you honestly think mmo players who typically dedicate most of their play time within immersive worlds in an rpg game would have enjoyed their games more if say a Mage from Wow only had 7 buttons to use for 8+ years?

    You stay sassy!

  • BoreilBoreil Dallas, TXPosts: 448Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by reckoner2
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

    Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

    Nope the days of multiple hotbars is long dead and not many mmo players want it at all, most want single bar/ limited skill's at the ready.   These type of multiple hit bar whack a mole combat mmo's  have been failing for years and years. 

    image

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAPosts: 834Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    Anyone who thinks that having access to so many abilities knows nothing about how to balance and build a successful and fun game.  Especially considering that the on average only a handful of those skills get used a majority of time.  Not only that anyone who enjoys playing whack-a-mole with their hotbars is deluding themselves in thinking it is any more skillful.

    Utterly and completely false and based upon assumptions.

     

    Many mmos based on pc will have many hotkeys from now and into the future. It depends on what sort of game they are trying to make. CU will have many hotkeys because it is trying to attract old school mmo players and dedicate it's design for pc gaming. It is an important selling point for many of the contributors and for pc gamers in general.

     

    Do not think that pc and console markets are so easily bridged. Genre will drive indie development as they must choose their audience carefully. Games will always offer choices between combat systems depending on what they are designed for and this will always differ between pc and consoles. You cannot have certain levels of combat complexity within various genres by restriction hotkeys simply because you want portability to console.

    So you named 1 mmo that isn't even guaranteed to launch.  Anymore?  Nope, thought so.  ESO, Wildstar, EQN, Black Desert just to name a few are using limited action bars.   Guess its just a fad.  Weird.

  • LukoooneLukooone SevillaPosts: 115Member Uncommon

    Why that many people in this thread is saying they hate to have screen full of skills when since 10 years old WoW gives you the possibility to bind keys and hide hotbars leaving 1 or 2 hotbars  for important CDs?

     

    All mouseclickers in MMORPG.COM?

    I guess many of you just never learned to play WoW...

    Played :UO,EQ,DaoC,Lineage2,SWG,WWIIOL,EQ2,EvE,WoW,AoC,DF,RIFT,GA,TSW,Tera...
    Best imo : UO

  • MrMelGibsonMrMelGibson USAPosts: 834Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by reckoner2
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

    Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

    Just judging by this thread alone.  I would say you are the minority and not the majority as you and the other old man mmo gamer in this thread can't seem to grasp.  

  • killion81killion81 A City, MIPosts: 985Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tamanous
    Originally posted by kilun
    Originally posted by reckoner2
    Originally posted by azzamasin

    The days of multi-hotbar combat is dead my friend. 

     

    No, it isn't dead, most mmorpg players prefer it and that is partially why Wow is still number 1. What is going to happen is, developers will get the hint after the next few mmorpgs fail to generate the revenue they need. There will be some minor success but I predict in the end they will all be forced to free-to-play and die a slow death. 

    Sure, there will be some cleanup to the number of abilities in Wow in future mmorpgs, but the current trend of a super low number of abilities will fail.

    So you literally just said the success of WOW has to do with the amount of skills and hotbars?  

    It is a factor to the longevity of the game. It is the fundamental mechanic for how your toon interacts in game. Nearly all content is based upon combat. You suggest that an 8 year old game with millions of players and many other mmos adding to many millions more over 15 years had nothing to do with it's combat mechanics?

     

    Do you honestly think mmo players who typically dedicate most of their play time within immersive worlds in an rpg game would have enjoyed their games more if say a Mage from Wow only had 7 buttons to use for 8+ years?

     

    WoW's skill sets compliment the tab target nature of combat pretty well.  You don't have to worry about things like aiming, so you can put all your efforts into skill rotations and positioning.  When the combat is fundamentally changed with things like active dodge and aiming, the number of buttons probably starts to feel pretty overwhelming.  I haven't played Wildstar though, so I can't say for certain.

     

    I can say that based on the videos I have seen so far, I do not believe comparing WoW combat to Wildstar combat is a true "apples to apples" comparison.

  • pappacubepappacube Davenport, IAPosts: 90Member
    This game doesn't seem to really hit the mark for a new MMO for 2014.  Hardly worth the effort of my posting this......
  • RocknissRockniss Youngstown, OHPosts: 1,034Member
    Originally posted by fantasyfreak112

    Agree with OP. Part of the reason GW2 got boring so fast was the lack of usable abilities made the gameplay dry up faster then Joan Rivers. No idea why companies think this is a good feature to copy. Sick of every other new game having a cheesy dodge roll too. It isn't even used to dodge, it's just a cheesy 1 second immunity whether you roll right into the attack or not.

     

    GW2 comes to my mind as well, its the main reason I don't play it. I tried and tried but cant get past the gimped feeling I have with such limitations on my skills, and swapping weapons doesnt help either, I just found it to be annoying rather than adding to the fun. I feel like people have to much time to think about how to counter my moves rather than making split second decisions like one would really need to do in combat.
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