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So what exactly are F2P games supposed to charge for?

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  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,512Member Uncommon
    I don't see why a game cannot have extras that people pay extra for.

    Groups are the most fun when no one needs them but just wants them.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • GdemamiGdemami Beau VallonPosts: 8,390Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Because if I'm already paying money for the game, I should have access to the game. There shouldn't be shop exclusive items.Its a GAME not a STORE. I should be able to play the GAME to get the GAME reward.

    You only rephrased what you stated before - that there should be no shop with exclusive items.

    That still does not explain why not.

  • KonfessKonfess Dallas, TXPosts: 1,068Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    How many times have me, my friends, anyone I know, have spoken with in or out of a game bought anything on a cs (boosts, equipment, clothing, pets, mounts, house…. Anything at all) and had someone call me out or made any mention whatsoever about being straight or gay?

    Answer – none.

    This has not happened to you or anyone you know?  Congratulations.

    Do I think it happens?   No.  I do think that some people may be feeling more targeted, but that is their perception which is not reflective of reality.

    Are you saying you believe it doesn’t happen at all?  To absolutely no one? In a case of violation of ethics, impressions do matter.

    The idea that only LGBT use vanity items, or use vanity items any more than other people is ludicous as is anything that thinks this.  Vanity items are some of if not the biggest industry (if it was just one industry anyway) and largest expenditures of people in RL, why would a game be any different.

     This is the opposite of what I said and meant.  What I said is that Explorers, Socializers, and Achievers are targeted in the cash shop.  Then I elaborated that E.S.A are not entirely LGBT or that LGBT is entirely E.S.A.

    I also agree that IRL vanity items are a big industry (especially sports team jerseys).  It would be ludicrous to think that IRL, vanity items were either marketed or sold to the LGBT exclusively.  Here is why I think a game would be different.  I expect to see subscribers (either hetero or not) buying and wearing vanity gear with their free cash shop points.  I don’t expect to see Free Gamers PvPing in vanity costumes or buying anything.  But I do expect they are playing IRL in their favorite team jersey.

    Do I think that P2W means anything that affects the Killer gameplay style? 

    No.  Virtually all items are sold on cs now.  Some with power, some without, boosts, bag space, mounts, abilities… all can affect the killer, explorer, social, achiever gameplay – all are called out and debated in this forum.

    I see what you are saying, buying an unlock of 100 bag slots could affect a Killer gamer equally as an OP Epic Legendary Weapon.  But I think the Epic Legendary weapon would be called P2W, more often and more loudly than the bag slots. Are you saying that since all items are sold on the cash shop now, all items are P2W?.

     

    LoL.  If you read DeathWolf2U's post, right after this one.  It is a reiteration of my points from my original post

    Pardon any spelling errors
    Konfess your cyns and some maybe forgiven
    Boy: Why can't I talk to Him?
    Mom: We don't talk to Priests.
    As if it could exist, without being payed for.
    F2P means you get what you paid for. Pay nothing, get nothing.

  • DeathWolf2uDeathWolf2u Maryville, ILPosts: 291Member

    @lizardbones,

     

    Well it's easy really, two things:

     

    1. Reduce dramatically what items cost in the cash shop = more people will buy stuff which = company makes even more money because of the increase of people buying i.e. Neverwinter for example only here, charging $40 to $50 just for a mount is an insane amount which in turn not many people buy that item. Reduce the cost to a reasonable amount and more people buy. I mean a realistic cost not something stupid like even $20 for a mount.

     

    2. Do not sell any items in the cash shop like potions, gear or whatever that gives a person and unfair advantage in PvP if that game has it. Hence Pay To Win where it really hurts. It's bad enough to compete with cheaters scripting in PvP let alone giving them even a bigger edge by buying items in the cash shop.

     

    When these two things are responsibly addressed by the gaming companies they might find a more successful F2P model like Path of Exile for one.

  • TorvalTorval Oregon CountryPosts: 8,291Member Rare
    Originally posted by DeathWolf2u

    @lizardbones,

    Well it's easy really, two things:

    1. Reduce dramatically what items cost in the cash shop = more people will buy stuff which = company makes even more money because of the increase of people buying i.e. Neverwinter for example only here, charging $40 to $50 just for a mount is an insane amount which in turn not many people buy that item. Reduce the cost to a reasonable amount and more people buy. I mean a realistic cost not something stupid like even $20 for a mount.

    2. Do not sell any items in the cash shop like potions, gear or whatever that gives a person and unfair advantage in PvP if that game has it. Hence Pay To Win where it really hurts. It's bad enough to compete with cheaters scripting in PvP let alone giving them even a bigger edge by buying items in the cash shop.

    When these two things are responsibly addressed by the gaming companies they might find a more successful F2P model like Path of Exile for one.

    1. Raph Koster pointed out in a recent AMA (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if a company keeps their prices set in a particular way it is because people are paying those prices and meeting the revenue expectation. How do you know not many people are buying mounts and companions, or other things in that cash shop at their current prices. Cryptic reduced the prices shortly after launch, but haven't reduced them much since. That sort of signals that they are happy with the prices.

    2. What other ways to people gain advantage in pvp in an rpg? Should those be removed as well? When is gaining advantage non-tactical advantage one way okay, but not another?

    How do you conclude that models outside of PoE aren't successful?

    Centuries ago, in primitive times, before the dawn of civilization, there were things that would be inconceivable to us today; such things as poverty, disease, violence, senility, and love.
  • DeathWolf2uDeathWolf2u Maryville, ILPosts: 291Member
    Originally posted by Torvaldr
    Originally posted by DeathWolf2u

    @lizardbones,

    Well it's easy really, two things:

    1. Reduce dramatically what items cost in the cash shop = more people will buy stuff which = company makes even more money because of the increase of people buying i.e. Neverwinter for example only here, charging $40 to $50 just for a mount is an insane amount which in turn not many people buy that item. Reduce the cost to a reasonable amount and more people buy. I mean a realistic cost not something stupid like even $20 for a mount.

    2. Do not sell any items in the cash shop like potions, gear or whatever that gives a person and unfair advantage in PvP if that game has it. Hence Pay To Win where it really hurts. It's bad enough to compete with cheaters scripting in PvP let alone giving them even a bigger edge by buying items in the cash shop.

    When these two things are responsibly addressed by the gaming companies they might find a more successful F2P model like Path of Exile for one.

    1. Raph Koster pointed out in a recent AMA (and I'm paraphrasing here) that if a company keeps their prices set in a particular way it is because people are paying those prices and meeting the revenue expectation. How do you know not many people are buying mounts and companions, or other things in that cash shop at their current prices. Cryptic reduced the prices shortly after launch, but haven't reduced them much since. That sort of signals that they are happy with the prices.

    2. What other ways to people gain advantage in pvp in an rpg? Should those be removed as well? When is gaining advantage non-tactical advantage one way okay, but not another?

    How do you conclude that models outside of PoE aren't successful?

     

    1. I know because I played Neverwinter and only a handful of people actually bought the mounts and companions from the cash shop. That was also only one example I gave there are a ton of others but I think you and everyone else gets the point.

     

    2. This makes absolutely no sense. I'm trying to figure out what your point is that you are trying to get across but I don't see it. I gave two reasons that give an unfair advantage in PvP and are very real. How you even begin to debate that is beyond me or you are one of the ones that thrive on the over advantage with the two methods I mentioned.

     

    3. Again PoE was only one example there are more out there. I'm starting to think you are just looking to argue with anything that someone says which proves it by you attempting to debate me which failed.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,512Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Konfess
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar

    How many times have me, my friends, anyone I know, have spoken with in or out of a game bought anything on a cs (boosts, equipment, clothing, pets, mounts, house…. Anything at all) and had someone call me out or made any mention whatsoever about being straight or gay?

    Answer – none.

    This has not happened to you or anyone you know?  Congratulations.

    Do I think it happens?   No.  I do think that some people may be feeling more targeted, but that is their perception which is not reflective of reality.

    Are you saying you believe it doesn’t happen at all?  To absolutely no one? In a case of violation of ethics, impressions do matter.

    The idea that only LGBT use vanity items, or use vanity items any more than other people is ludicous as is anything that thinks this.  Vanity items are some of if not the biggest industry (if it was just one industry anyway) and largest expenditures of people in RL, why would a game be any different.

     This is the opposite of what I said and meant.  What I said is that Explorers, Socializers, and Achievers are targeted in the cash shop.  Then I elaborated that E.S.A are not entirely LGBT or that LGBT is entirely E.S.A.

    I also agree that IRL vanity items are a big industry (especially sports team jerseys).  It would be ludicrous to think that IRL, vanity items were either marketed or sold to the LGBT exclusively.  Here is why I think a game would be different.  I expect to see subscribers (either hetero or not) buying and wearing vanity gear with their free cash shop points.  I don’t expect to see Free Gamers PvPing in vanity costumes or buying anything.  But I do expect they are playing IRL in their favorite team jersey.

    Do I think that P2W means anything that affects the Killer gameplay style? 

    No.  Virtually all items are sold on cs now.  Some with power, some without, boosts, bag space, mounts, abilities… all can affect the killer, explorer, social, achiever gameplay – all are called out and debated in this forum.

    I see what you are saying, buying an unlock of 100 bag slots could affect a Killer gamer equally as an OP Epic Legendary Weapon.  But I think the Epic Legendary weapon would be called P2W, more often and more loudly than the bag slots. Are you saying that since all items are sold on the cash shop now, all items are P2W?.

     

    LoL.  If you read DeathWolf2U's post, right after this one.  It is a reiteration of my points from my original post

    Actually you stated that the people in your guild and your doctors office felt the vanity items were targeting the LGBT community, which IMO is silly.

    And to tell the truth I've never even heard of it being discussed or an issue before today.

    Why would you expect to see subs wearing the gear, but not free gamers?  There are an awful lot of gamers that play free games and buy things (arguably more than subscribers?)

    Impressions do matter in a court and in ethics, however they must satisfys the "what would the objective person do" test.  Someone can feel targeted and offended all the want, if the objective person does not feel it is targeted then the offended person does not have a leg to stand on.

    So no I don't think it's happening in the general games that are on here.  Do I think that there are specific games targeting specific demographics, yes of course there is, and that isn't wrong, that is their target audience.  In the massive AAA games that are discussed on most forums?  No.  Therefore anyone feeling targeted is IMO unjustified in that belief.

    Do I think that all items are P2W?  No.  I think there are actually very few items in most games that are p2w.  However I do think they are all equally lambasted on forums, especially this forum.

    Groups are the most fun when no one needs them but just wants them.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,199Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Because if I'm already paying money for the game, I should have access to the game. There shouldn't be shop exclusive items.

     

    Its a GAME not a STORE. I should be able to play the GAME to get the GAME reward.


     

    You only rephrased what you stated before - that there should be no shop with exclusive items.

    That still does not explain why not.

    No, I stated why. I've payed for access to the game with the monthly fee. I should have access to the ENTIRE game. The shop should be there for free to play people, it should give short cuts. It should not have exclusive items, because then that encourages the devs to put all the best items on the shop and double charging subscribers. It makes it so that the best items in the game are EXTRA money on top of everything else, with no merit way of earning them.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,512Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Because if I'm already paying money for the game, I should have access to the game. There shouldn't be shop exclusive items.

     

    Its a GAME not a STORE. I should be able to play the GAME to get the GAME reward.


     

    You only rephrased what you stated before - that there should be no shop with exclusive items.

    That still does not explain why not.

    No, I stated why. I've payed for access to the game with the monthly fee. I should have access to the ENTIRE game. The shop should be there for free to play people, it should give short cuts. It should not have exclusive items, because then that encourages the devs to put all the best items on the shop and double charging subscribers. It makes it so that the best items in the game are EXTRA money on top of everything else, with no merit way of earning them.

    Best items and exclusive items may not, and usually aren't in most cs, the same items.

    Groups are the most fun when no one needs them but just wants them.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • drbaltazardrbaltazar drummondville, QCPosts: 7,987Member
    The secret world and guild wars franchise of payment method done right! They offer store item but all item don't give advantage aside from eastetic .etc
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    Couple of things.

    First. Items that do not sell do not remain unchanged. If there are items in a cash shop, and those items have stayed at the same price for along period of time, then those items are selling at a rate that generates an acceptable profit. If they weren't selling they would either be removed from the cash shop, the price would change or something about those items would be changed to make them sell. How can this possibly be known without having information on the sales a company makes? Because history tells us that companies that do not respond to their customers in a way that is palatable to their customers either find new customers or go out of business. It's also a basic economic or business whatsis. Rule. Very basic. Things will tend to sell a certain amount at a certain price. Raise or lower the price to get the optimum sales to generate the most profit, or more likely keep the price high to get the early adopters and have a sale to get everyone else.

    Second. Developers are not targeting LGBT people with vanity items. Why? Because that would mean they think that vanity items are the only thing that LGBT people want. The inverse would be that nobody else wants that stuff. It's just such a stupid concept that I can't believe anyone even brought it up. Developers are not doing this. Apologies for using the word 'stupid', but really. It's just so stupid. It is so much more likely that developers just don't care about LGBT people and just don't take them into consideration for any of their marketing decisions than it is they having worked out some magic bullet that targets them specifically. Kudos to people* for responding in an intelligent and thoughtful manner to this. I can't do it. Sorry.

    **

    * Venge.

    **

    I will admit the idea of targeting gamers by their Bartle type is interesting, and something I've never thought of before. It would certainly be a way to target a specific demographic, and from there they could be divided into people who are willing and able to spend money early, and those people who wait for sales and deals.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,199Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by Gdemami

     


    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa

    Because if I'm already paying money for the game, I should have access to the game. There shouldn't be shop exclusive items.

     

    Its a GAME not a STORE. I should be able to play the GAME to get the GAME reward.


     

    You only rephrased what you stated before - that there should be no shop with exclusive items.

    That still does not explain why not.

    No, I stated why. I've payed for access to the game with the monthly fee. I should have access to the ENTIRE game. The shop should be there for free to play people, it should give short cuts. It should not have exclusive items, because then that encourages the devs to put all the best items on the shop and double charging subscribers. It makes it so that the best items in the game are EXTRA money on top of everything else, with no merit way of earning them.

    Best items and exclusive items may not, and usually aren't in most cs, the same items.

    If you're paying to play the game, no aspect of the game should be locked behind extra payment.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,512Member Uncommon
    What about expansions then? And pre-order itemso or founder items. It monthly fees for that matter. They all involve extra costs on top of buying the game.

    Groups are the most fun when no one needs them but just wants them.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • VengeSunsoarVengeSunsoar Posts: 5,512Member Uncommon
    Bah sent on my phone n. You get the idea.

    Groups are the most fun when no one needs them but just wants them.

    Quit worrying about other players in a game and just play.

  • WhiteLanternWhiteLantern Nevada, MOPosts: 2,732Member Uncommon

    Has anyone given the "whatever a game's playerbase will let them get away with" answer yet?

     

    Just checking.

     

     

    /duck

    I want a mmorpg where people have gone through misery, have gone through school stuff and actually have had sex even. -sagil

  • SquishydewSquishydew NetherlandsPosts: 1,040Member Uncommon

    I pretty much avoid any F2P that sells anything besides Cosmetics and things like Experience gain potions.

    I'm alright with selling expansions too, that just makes sense.

     

    I dislike games that sell items that give you a distinct advantage, if you sell hotbars or skillslots you're awful as well.

    Selling things like bags and bankspace is ok, as long as there is a reasonable way to get it through gameplay as well

  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by WhiteLantern
    Has anyone given the "whatever a game's playerbase will let them get away with" answer yet? Just checking.  /duck

    For the developer or publisher, this is certainly the answer. There are ideal items at the ideal price that will get them the most amount of money, and make the most amount of people happy to have spent the money. There seems to be a lot of variation on what those items are though. I think the people who said that the best things to charge for are the things that "I" can live without or do not want are the best items to charge for hit it pretty close. Something just as important, which I'm not sure has been mentioned is that people also want things that they can live with other people having, if they don't have them.

    I don't think this is one of those things where there's really a specific, "these items are ok" kind of answer. Cosmetic items come up a lot, which makes sense. People see them as luxuries, and can live without them. Also, if other people have them, people are ok with that too. Not so much with more powerful items or items that make combat easier.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

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  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member


    Originally posted by greenreen
    How about cosmetics.  Yeah, how 'bout those. People say they don't want them but people do tend to spend a good amount of time on character creation. We have more whirly gigs and zipzap bars in the character creation screen than ever before. You can change the tint of your armpit hair I envision next year as the next big thing.

    Would the people who want cosmetics to be up for sale cling to that view if that meant that they had no character creation and what they got was a standard form.

    Something like this? http://images.mmorpg.com/features/4777/images/DAOC-Shar.jpg

    Picture came from this very site http://www.mmorpg.com/showFeature.cfm/feature/4777/The-List-Top-5-Ugly-MMO-Races.html

    There you go, can you handle it or will you be off to the cash shop post-haste.

    This all needs to be put to the test. Some dev is going to read what you say and take away character look putting it behind payment, watch lol



    Not exactly the same thing, but Minecraft does this with people who pay for the game and people who find a hacked client. Character skins are stored in a Mojang server, so only people who have purchased the client and authenticate through Mojang can have custom skins. Anyone who hacks their client gets to wear the "Steve" skin. It does carry some social pressure to purchase the game, and if the game has been purchased to change the default skin to something else.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • spizzspizz BlackForrestPosts: 1,971Member Uncommon

    Charge them for the air they are breathing or if they want to enter an area, crossing a bridge, petrol for vehicles,  a game tax.

    ....this would be the next pervers step for this kind of F2P genre hehe.

  • AlBQuirkyAlBQuirky Sioux City, IAPosts: 3,828Member Common


    Originally posted by spizz
    Charge them for the air they are breathing or if they want to enter an area, crossing a bridge, petrol for vehicles,  a game tax.....this would be the next pervers step for this kind of F2P genre hehe.
    Wizard101's F2P model is like this. You get to create your little wizard and then start adventuring. You get the Commons area of Wizard City at no cost. You can also visit 4 of the next 5 areas (called streets) for free. Unfortunately, to leave Wizard City and go to another area in the spiral, you HAVE to complete all of the areas. Guess, what they do? They charge the players for the last area. I think there is also a dungeon or two that they charge for. So a player can not get very far in their game without paying.

    - Al

    Personally the only modern MMORPG trend that annoys me is the idea that MMOs need to be designed in a way to attract people who don't actually like MMOs. Which to me makes about as much sense as someone trying to figure out a way to get vegetarians to eat at their steakhouse.
    - FARGIN_WAR

  • TibernicuspaTibernicuspa Amherest, MAPosts: 1,199Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    What about expansions then? Expansions are labor intensive extra pieces developed onto the game that took time and money for art and design. Not reskinned swords with a particle effect that you already payed for. And pre-order itemso or founder items. I think everyone agrees those are mostly BS. But they're timed exclusives, to indicate how long you've been with the game. Not the same deal.  It monthly fees for that matter. Are to pay for the server farms that run the game... They all involve extra costs on top of buying the game.

    And they're almost all tangible things that in a normal market WOULD get charged extra.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 14,247Member Rare
    Originally posted by Tibernicuspa
    Originally posted by VengeSunsoar
    What about expansions then? Expansions are labor intensive extra pieces developed onto the game that took time and money for art and design. Not reskinned swords with a particle effect that you already payed for.
    You seem to ignore that no new people are added to the team for that. It is existing team members that could have created it for the game itself. Seems a double standard there, no?
     
    And pre-order itemso or founder items. I think everyone agrees those are mostly BS. But they're timed exclusives, to indicate how long you've been with the game. Not the same deal.  
    It is still content the devs created in developing the product and sold to you separately. Again, double standard. 
    It monthly fees for that matter. Are to pay for the server farms that run the game...
    F2P games run on unicorn love and puppy cuteness. It seems that when you bounce between "servers/badnwidth are trivial" and "monthly fees are needed to cover server/badnwidth costs" dependent on what best fits your argument.
    They all involve extra costs on top of buying the game.

    And they're almost all tangible things that in a normal market WOULD get charged extra.

    So, how does any of that differ from F2P? Don't let cognitive dissonance get the better of you. :) 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • jpaprockijpaprocki Posts: 314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by collekt
    Originally posted by Hanthos
    Originally posted by lizardbones


    * Nothing is off limits. The only wrong answer is "Subscription".

    Nothing like eliminating answers you just don't want to hear.

    That's what I was thinking. Personally I think everyone should just man the fuck up and be willing to pay for a game if you want to play it. I don't see why everyone wants to be on uneven footing with the in-game purchases, other than the kids with no jobs who just want free games handed to them.

    Welcome to the entitlement generation

    I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

  • jpaprockijpaprocki Posts: 314Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    You're not really going to get any type of resolution because the people calling everything p2w either hate f2p or want everything for free. So obviously the game couldn't/wouldn't survive if they had it their way. Everyone else will give reasonable answers because they are already comfortable with how f2p works or don't make posts like that to begin with, and not part of the "problem "

     

    But to answer your question... Tera in my opinion is the ideal f2p model

    There is no restricted content/class/race. You can play the game 100% free and do anything a paying player can do.

    Everything they sell is able to be put up on the in game AH and you can buy it from a player for gold. Even character and bank slots or race change tokens can be bought this way.

    They have a sub option that offers you benefits but all of them really just focus on time. More dailies, more gold, faster travel etc.

    The cash shop sells your typical xp boost, gold boost rep boost but the main focus of it is cosmetic items and enchanting materials. The cosmetic items are all skins. The stats are all on items you have and there is a " cosmetics " tab that the skins go on. You have the ability to ether farm a weaker version of the enchanting mat in game ( lower chance of success, not end result ) or there is always lots of it for sale on the ah by other players.

    They have rng boxes which I'm, not really a fan of but again nothing that comes out of them can't be put on the AH and everything I ever wanted from them I got from the AH instead.

    The problem of course with any game focused on cosmetics is, the game has to be designed for it. Graphics matter, style matters and the types of players you attract to your game matter.  Tera is obviously making enough money to talk about doing a part two, so it's working for them.

    I will agree with Tera.  I'm not a big fan of Eastern Style mmo's so didn't play it long, but I did like how the CS was setup.

    I'm not an IT Specialist, Game Developer, or Clairvoyant in real life, but like others on here, I play one on the internet.

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