I was sort of 'Bob' in Eve Online. I've been playing Eve for almost 10 years. About 2 years ago, our little corporation of long-time friends just sort of lazily chatted and had fun. My friend, let's call him 'Fluff', was the founder and leader of our little corp. I decided to see if I could expand the corp., bring in new members, help new players, grow us into more activities, etc. With much effort, we grew and grew eventually becoming an alliance.
Now here's where your Bob and I differ. Never once did I undermine Fluff or try to sway people to me. Rather, asked for his ok in all major decisions and kept him in the loop when I was doing something. I always made it clear to our pilots that he is our leader, even when I was leading things and even when he was mostly taking a break from the game.
We are very easygoing and laid back, and maybe a WoW raiding guild is a different animal, but one thing I found very important was to have various people with various roles and responsibilities. Basically, we have a group of leaders and everyone's input is wanted, positive or negative. In Eve at least, it's just too much of a job to run an alliance by yourself anyway. I'm not sufficiently familiar with WoW to know whether a guild leader has much other stuff to do besides raiding, but I imagine you do. Also, I try to give credit whenever someone does things for the good of the alliance, whether it is leading a fleet or simply moving assets. I find people really appreciate that.
In your situation, I think a good approach would have been to stay as leader, but to put Bob in charge of raiding. Maybe put someone else in charge of leveling, someone in charge of whatever else your guild does. At least that's how we did it in Eve. We comprised our alliance of various corps. Pvp, industrial, new player, etc. Each led by someone who was a good fit for that role. Members are always free to engage in the activities of their choice, but there is leadership for them. That way, you guide the ship, Bob guides raiding, etc. and everyone, for the most part, is happy.
Thats life my friend…. also called survival of the fittest .
He was better then you so he is the up and you are down. You better stop crying, and thank god that this lesson was told you in a virtual world, not the real one where bob also would have your Job and your wife.
Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.
Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????
I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.
Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.
and you end up losing some very good players in your guild all because you want to be PC and let females in. no thanks.
Because EVERYONE knows, females can not be good players and only join guilds to stir trouble for the boys
Woman logic^, where did i say females can't be good players. You risk complete raid cohesion when you introduce a female into the mix cause as someone said before me, guys get stupid when a female is around. So, you have 3 choices.
1. be PC and let females in, chaos happens, you kick the people who was apart of it, now your raid group is left in shambles.
2. be proactive and -not- let females in, business continues as usual. (this is the winner)
3. be PC and let females in, chaos still happens because since you're letting females in, the guys wanna get their gf's in, and so you let their gfs in, then the females want their bfs in, and then if you don't let both in the raid they both leave, and now your raid group is left in shambles.
Consider this a lesson in experience and do not let it sully you too much. If you like guild leading and you like leveling people up AND are unhappy with how things went. I would strongly recommend that you leave and start again. Sadly you cannot run a guild like a democracy, it just doesn't work as well as you think it would on paper.
Ideally you should of kept the guild as you envisioned it and had officers to cater to those whom had different interests. So, you might have raid leaders in place for a Monday, Thursday raid night or you might have a PvP officer.
Yes it sucks, I know but I have run 3 guilds in WoW before a new guild with every return as I typically make a new toon each time I return. 2 of them I handed down the mantle as I wasn't playing any more the other I lost everyone in the guild due to lack of raid progression. I actually set raid leaders up for it and they pretty much left with all the raiders, started their own guild... and still got nowhere. But, hey, that's people for you.
Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.
Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????
I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.
Yet guys never get shut out as a 'precaution' but females are...
Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.
How generous of you /sarcasm.
Sorry but after years of this kind of crap attitude towards female gamers I have no patience left on thise topic.
At the OP, sorry for taking this offtopic....
And now we start with the bra-burning feminazi crap. Females are shut out because, like it or not, they still make up a minority of players, and it's much easier to exclude the minority by default then the majority. If you would stop for a moment with the over-the-top, "FEMINISM RAWR"! crap and actually think about it like a rational person, you'd realize that.
Crap attitude? I literally said, in the post you quoted, that I had no problem with female players joining a guild WHAT SO EVER. As far as booting people, a disruptive person is a disruptive person, regardless of gender. And yes, trouble can start because of cross-gender bullshit, and like any other type of drama, it shouldn't be tolerated.
What am I supposed to do, huh? Serve on bended knee, apologizing profusely for the fact I wasn't born with a set of ovaries? Christ almighty, I'm on YOUR side, pointing out the fact that a 'no females' stance is sexist, and that's STILL not good enough for you!
I think you're the one who needs to check their 'crap attitude' at the door. You're not looking for equality, you're looking for special treatment. You're exactly the kind of woman which makes guilds institute 'no females' policies, period. So congratulations on being part of the fucking problem.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.
Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????
I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.
Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.
and you end up losing some very good players in your guild all because you want to be PC and let females in. no thanks.
Because EVERYONE knows, females can not be good players and only join guilds to stir trouble for the boys
Don't want to sound bland,... BUT:
I already said the bad stuff about democracy in games and i will have to second this "anto female"-idea as well sadly. I NEVER rejected a female player IF the quality as a raider was on par or better then the rest of the team AND we needed that class at the moment. (Used to be a semi hardcore progression guild).
I have had it happen THREE times that a female comes in, starts flirting with guys... starts talking behind someone elses back and we had drama in the guild. The first time we tried to solve it nicely... lost half the guild. The second time we told her to stop or be kicked. We ended up losing half the guild again after a longer while.
The third time we kicked her right away when it started and we lost noone else.
It is sad and i would have done the same to any male player doing the same. But frankly, in the past 15 years of gaming i have seen this kind of crap like a DOZEN times but only once due to a male. And he was gay (really, and not meant as an offence, but a fact he openly admited).
So i fully understand if some people want to skip the drama and set up rules accordingly. In democracy this is forbidden. In games it is not. This has nothing to do with good or bad player. Our best healer and best DDs used to be females. But drama free females. Sadly drama is attached to females like it is to 12-16 year old kids. Sure this does not mean every female or every 12-16 year old causes drama, but chances are high and the negative impact is harsh enough to want to avoid that, if possible.
Edit: Also there are plenty of RL jobs that demand females and do not accept men. This is not even against any laws (in germany at least), but it is against the laws the other way. Hard to make two persons that are so different equal. But funny how we keep trying to make + and - equal, but only onesided, isn't it?
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
I would rather be the leader of a guild with no one but me in it than to hand my leadership to someone else, and anyone who wants to follow that someone else can kiss my ass too.
I would have taken a step back and created a "Raid Leader" position and had everyone vote. (We know Bob would have won) and then slowed down on the raiding with them and sub catagorizied the other leadership roles to protect yourself. As also posted, the Raiders might have split but if you created the guild and put time and in game money, resources, personal time, etc then you should have taken an admin role and protected yourself and kept doing what you feel was helping the guild for the big picture.
I would also have created a PvP Team Leader postion, and a Crafting Leader postion and kept the highest priority since interests were splitting and not get sucked into the full time raid spot only to get kicked to the curb. I had a similar situation in a 8 man guild with Dark Age of Camelot. It wasn't my guild but at some point the handwriting was on the wall for me, I moved on and found another guild that was just as fun and not nearly uptight as my "serious" PvP guild the first year and a half.
As a leader (not the founding one) of a guild I can understand the pressure you were under. Our Guild has gone through three very tough splits and is not very active today. Since I am off doing other games it really does not matter anymore. In any case it's just a game and there are more pressing things in life.
Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.
Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????
I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.
Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.
and you end up losing some very good players in your guild all because you want to be PC and let females in. no thanks.
Because EVERYONE knows, females can not be good players and only join guilds to stir trouble for the boys
Don't want to sound bland,... BUT:
I already said the bad stuff about democracy in games and i will have to second this "anto female"-idea as well sadly. I NEVER rejected a female player IF the quality as a raider was on par or better then the rest of the team AND we needed that class at the moment. (Used to be a semi hardcore progression guild).
I have had it happen THREE times that a female comes in, starts flirting with guys... starts talking behind someone elses back and we had drama in the guild. The first time we tried to solve it nicely... lost half the guild. The second time we told her to stop or be kicked. We ended up losing half the guild again after a longer while.
The third time we kicked her right away when it started and we lost noone else.
It is sad and i would have done the same to any male player doing the same. But frankly, in the past 15 years of gaming i have seen this kind of crap like a DOZEN times but only once due to a male. And he was gay (really, and not meant as an offence, but a fact he openly admited).
So i fully understand if some people want to skip the drama and set up rules accordingly. In democracy this is forbidden. In games it is not. This has nothing to do with good or bad player. Our best healer and best DDs used to be females. But drama free females. Sadly drama is attached to females like it is to 12-16 year old kids. Sure this does not mean every female or every 12-16 year old causes drama, but chances are high and the negative impact is harsh enough to want to avoid that, if possible.
Edit: Also there are plenty of RL jobs that demand females and do not accept men. This is not even against any laws (in germany at least), but it is against the laws the other way. Hard to make two persons that are so different equal. But funny how we keep trying to make + and - equal, but only onesided, isn't it?
Females can be more emotionally invested when gaming because of the way their brains are wired (feelers more often than thinkers) and I've seen some drama llamas in my gaming heydey of both sexes. I think a stereotype has formed around female games; a stereotype as essential to a well rounded guild as the slow-speaking rogue/assassin who's always stoned. But then, there are stereotypes for a reason.
Just curious, what kind of jobs don't accept men? Just wondering your train of thought. Hope this question isn't coming across as inciting drama...
Females can be more emotionally invested when gaming because of the way their brains are wired (feelers more often than thinkers) and I've seen some drama llamas in my gaming heydey of both sexes. I think a stereotype has formed around female games; a stereotype as essential to a well rounded guild as the slow-speaking rogue/assassin who's always stoned. But then, there are stereotypes for a reason.
Just curious, what kind of jobs don't accept men? Just wondering your train of thought. Hope this question isn't coming across as inciting drama...
have you read nothing of all the posts you quoted? no one is saying the fault lies with women solely. we're saying is the GUYS who get stupid when a woman is nearby. so all that shit you're talking about we're pitting a stereotype against female gamers is just straight up bull.
yes someone may have cited an example or two about a female flirting and what not, but the majority was saying its the guys who just get stupid and wanna white knight any insult or w/e to the female and just shit goes south from there. like i said to jaleena, no one is saying females are bad players or anything, but when you introduce a female in a high competitive setting like raiding where you need everyone to work together for hours at a time and gear disputes could happen at anytime not to mention raid spots...it's almost asking for trouble.
Females can be more emotionally invested when gaming because of the way their brains are wired (feelers more often than thinkers) and I've seen some drama llamas in my gaming heydey of both sexes. I think a stereotype has formed around female games; a stereotype as essential to a well rounded guild as the slow-speaking rogue/assassin who's always stoned. But then, there are stereotypes for a reason.
Just curious, what kind of jobs don't accept men? Just wondering your train of thought. Hope this question isn't coming across as inciting drama...
have you read nothing of all the posts you quoted? no one is saying the fault lies with women solely. we're saying is the GUYS who get stupid when a woman is nearby. so all that shit you're talking about we're pitting a stereotype against female gamers is just straight up bull.
yes someone may have cited an example or two about a female flirting and what not, but the majority was saying its the guys who just get stupid and wanna white knight any insult or w/e to the female and just shit goes south from there. like i said to jaleena, no one is saying females are bad players or anything, but when you introduce a female in a high competitive setting like raiding where you need everyone to work together for hours at a time and gear disputes could happen at anytime not to mention raid spots...it's almost asking for trouble.
I gotcha. It's for sure a two way street. It's an interesting idea, gender specific guilds. It can avoid potential problems and there are plenty of other guilds out there. Cheers!
Speaking as a former "Bob", the writing is on the wall. If you choose to see it, that is up to you. I have overthrown 2 guild leaders, 1 in SWTOR and 1 in WoW. Never did it to be a dick, I did it for the benefit of the guild as a whole. When a Guild has a leader who isn't qualified or inexperienced it hurts the guild as a whole. You did the right thing for the guild but not for you as a player.
The burning question that begs to be asked is "Why were there people who were "way better geared" than you?"
There are a couple possible reasons but none of them would be worth it. If you would have said, similarly geared or a bit better geared than you, I might have sympathy. If they were that far ahead of you on gear, then you went from being a Guild Leader to being carried. No one wants to carry anyone, pull your own weight or step out.. its only fair.
You need to start a Casual Guild and let it be known from the start that it will never be anything more.
Second Rule.. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR POWER. If you do, then your done. Force them to restart a new guild and rebuild your current one. Doing this keeps your manhood intact, as it stands yours is in your backpack.
Just because I'm a gamer doesn't mean I drive a Honda.
sometimes in guild politics a cult of personality kind of happens, I know something similar happened when I played Wow. I've actually been on both sides of this behaviour (as in, i've been in your position and in bob's). I dunno why but it's a phenomenon of guild politics in Wow and EQ2. (i never noticed it in EQ1, and in Eve people tend to be super skeptical of ny newcomer for months in any relevant corp) I would say though, that as lng as you had fun for the time you were GM, then dont call it wasted time! you had fun and enjoyed yourself. what more can you want in a game. try to keep it positive and seek people to play with that appreciate you.
as others mentioned it seems like your guild kinda got hijacked from a less intense guild to a more raiding oriented one. Dont lose sleep over it. you know what? the people in your old guild who are worth knowing will seek you out and you wont lose them as friends. the ones who dont were probly not worth it in the first place. and if you put your mind to it then within a week, blam, you will find a new guild to call home and new folks to get to know.
keep it positive. if da skull can do it you can too
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
I'm sorry but this is still real life and as others have said if you saw this guy coming you should have did something about it. Hopefully you don't make the same mistake if you try the guild leadership again someday.
And btw there is noway in hell that I would have allowed them to vote me out. I would have kicked EVERYONE out before I did that, and kept the name just to stop them from taking it.
------------------------------ You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Hmm, I feel sorry for you, OP, but it is also what drew me away from WoW many times. I come from Anarchy Online and was a member of my guild for over 10 years. I was one of the founders. Having a guild in AO is quite easy, get 6 guild-less people together, make a team and type /org create "Name". There you have your guild. You can define the ranks and everything like in WoW, but a major difference in AO is that your guild is more than a raidgroup and a bank. We had about 500 members over the years, many leaders (including me) and a lot to do. But it was never anyones guild, it was our guild. And this is the same for almost all other guilds in AO. We had our officers with different tasks and depending on how many active members we had at a time, also vice officers. There was one for raiding, one for pvp actions (sometimes this was split up into two parts), one recruitment officer, one for newbie/lowlevel training and advice, one for our guild city (yes, not only housing, but cities...), one for rp activities etc. . PvP-action was sometimes split up into land control pvp and regular pvp. Oh, and we had an elders council for our retired leaders. That's what I call a guild.
But it's also something I think is very hard to get in WoW. There's too much pressure due to the lockout timers (which I feel are ridiculous anyways) in WoW, the raid size limitation makes it even worse. For a raiding guild that leads to an A-Team and some leftovers, if there aren't enoug players for a second raid group. I can understand that this system needs something like an harder hierarchy and there's some sort of meaning to the guild leader position, but it wasn't fun for me. We had our fair share of accomplishments in AO, not only faction or server wide. In AO we were able to do what we wanted to do, when we wanted it, how often we wanted it (except some faction/server wide raids with a global timer of 18h at max) and with as many players as we wanted. As you can think, we really grew together over all this and there were no leftovers. Coming from this background, I can say, I really feel sorry for you for losing your guild (as founder and leader of an WoW-guild, I think you're the one most attached to it), but I also feel sorry for many WoW-players (hence, I don't say that this is impossible, but it's a lot harder to accomplish in WoW due to a lack of activities where all guildies can take part in at the same time) who won't experience the type of guild I and most other AO players enjoyed so much.
I have not read the whole thread, so i apologise if i am repeating anything that has already been said.
I think there is one very important thing that a lot of people setting up guilds forget to do before embarking on them and that is to do some basic planing and set up the rules. More importantly, decide what type of guild you want to be and stick to it. I have been in a few social guilds that have then attempted to be raiding guilds and it never works well at all.
Number one though, with all that said, remember that it is 'your' guild, not the members, not the raid leader, 'your' guild!!! If you don't stick with that, you are pretty much doomed to fail from the start.
The guild i am currently heading up has a core membership of six founders, the decision from the start was that no-one other than any of these six could ever be leaders, others could become officers, but never leaders. The guild rules were ingrained and followed to the letter, some ex-members may have seen that as harsh, but again, if you don't stick to what you have set up, you are doomed to fail.
The overriding factor though was, if you don't like the way we run things, there is the door, goodbye and good luck. Again, that wasn't to be nasty or harsh in any way, but that is the way we wanted to run our guild and if you didn't agree then you obviously don't fit in with the ethos that we have decided to run ourselves by and you would be better off finding someone who did match your own game play style.
In the case of the op's story, my attitude personally would have been to say to the 70%, feel free to go start your own guild with Bob as your leader and i do say that from experience when i learned the hard way that raid and social don't generally mix
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
This sort of reminds me of my first raiding guild in WoW.
Our leader was pretty cool, and we would get server firsts on MC and BWL, then he stopped playing due to college. He eventually came back, but then someone else we recruited started leading the raids when he was gone. Eventually, the old leader wanted to be leader again, and that's when the guild fractured and split into two guilds.
Best thing to do is never give up guild leader.
Just rebuild another guild. You seemed capable of doing it the first time.
Lesson learned I guess. Definitely never give up guild leadership. Just let the raiders make their own guild if it comes to that. Everyone will be happier in the end.
Just make a new guild and be clear on the guilds goals. If people outgrow the guild just let them leave amicably.
"..about 70% of the guild "voted" him as the new Guild Master.." Oh really? I'm in WoW since 2005, always in raiding guilds and i have news for you my friend. Successful guilds are not run as democracies. What the hell does "they voted" even mean? First time i come across such a thing. If said person was this good then he could become the main raid leader which is already a big deal. Raid leader and guild master are not necessarily the same person you know. You did not handle the situation particularly well.
This is just how people are. It's sad but true. Loyalty is an extremely rare and precious thing in this world.
So sad, but true. I am a very loyal person (you saw this more back in the day MMOs from 1999-2004). Nowadays... while it still exists... it is also quite rare. Most guilds currently feel like revolving doors (although casualization of the genre helped in that regard immensely).
Love Robokapp's comments in this thread... good stuff. Bob's the Putin of WoW: make that into a meme! Love the example with Spartacus.
I have successfully run several guilds in several games. I have run them as dictatorships and democracies, however the one thing I have always done is kept the leadership in my name. Even when a democracy when decisions went against my view and others voices were listened to more, the ultimate power remained in my hands.
Comments
I was sort of 'Bob' in Eve Online. I've been playing Eve for almost 10 years. About 2 years ago, our little corporation of long-time friends just sort of lazily chatted and had fun. My friend, let's call him 'Fluff', was the founder and leader of our little corp. I decided to see if I could expand the corp., bring in new members, help new players, grow us into more activities, etc. With much effort, we grew and grew eventually becoming an alliance.
Now here's where your Bob and I differ. Never once did I undermine Fluff or try to sway people to me. Rather, asked for his ok in all major decisions and kept him in the loop when I was doing something. I always made it clear to our pilots that he is our leader, even when I was leading things and even when he was mostly taking a break from the game.
We are very easygoing and laid back, and maybe a WoW raiding guild is a different animal, but one thing I found very important was to have various people with various roles and responsibilities. Basically, we have a group of leaders and everyone's input is wanted, positive or negative. In Eve at least, it's just too much of a job to run an alliance by yourself anyway. I'm not sufficiently familiar with WoW to know whether a guild leader has much other stuff to do besides raiding, but I imagine you do. Also, I try to give credit whenever someone does things for the good of the alliance, whether it is leading a fleet or simply moving assets. I find people really appreciate that.
In your situation, I think a good approach would have been to stay as leader, but to put Bob in charge of raiding. Maybe put someone else in charge of leveling, someone in charge of whatever else your guild does. At least that's how we did it in Eve. We comprised our alliance of various corps. Pvp, industrial, new player, etc. Each led by someone who was a good fit for that role. Members are always free to engage in the activities of their choice, but there is leadership for them. That way, you guide the ship, Bob guides raiding, etc. and everyone, for the most part, is happy.
Thats life my friend…. also called survival of the fittest .
He was better then you so he is the up and you are down. You better stop crying, and thank god that this lesson was told you in a virtual world, not the real one where bob also would have your Job and your wife.
Step in the arena and break the wall down
Woman logic^, where did i say females can't be good players. You risk complete raid cohesion when you introduce a female into the mix cause as someone said before me, guys get stupid when a female is around. So, you have 3 choices.
1. be PC and let females in, chaos happens, you kick the people who was apart of it, now your raid group is left in shambles.
2. be proactive and -not- let females in, business continues as usual. (this is the winner)
3. be PC and let females in, chaos still happens because since you're letting females in, the guys wanna get their gf's in, and so you let their gfs in, then the females want their bfs in, and then if you don't let both in the raid they both leave, and now your raid group is left in shambles.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
Consider this a lesson in experience and do not let it sully you too much. If you like guild leading and you like leveling people up AND are unhappy with how things went. I would strongly recommend that you leave and start again. Sadly you cannot run a guild like a democracy, it just doesn't work as well as you think it would on paper.
Ideally you should of kept the guild as you envisioned it and had officers to cater to those whom had different interests. So, you might have raid leaders in place for a Monday, Thursday raid night or you might have a PvP officer.
Yes it sucks, I know but I have run 3 guilds in WoW before a new guild with every return as I typically make a new toon each time I return. 2 of them I handed down the mantle as I wasn't playing any more the other I lost everyone in the guild due to lack of raid progression. I actually set raid leaders up for it and they pretty much left with all the raiders, started their own guild... and still got nowhere. But, hey, that's people for you.
And now we start with the bra-burning feminazi crap. Females are shut out because, like it or not, they still make up a minority of players, and it's much easier to exclude the minority by default then the majority. If you would stop for a moment with the over-the-top, "FEMINISM RAWR"! crap and actually think about it like a rational person, you'd realize that.
Crap attitude? I literally said, in the post you quoted, that I had no problem with female players joining a guild WHAT SO EVER. As far as booting people, a disruptive person is a disruptive person, regardless of gender. And yes, trouble can start because of cross-gender bullshit, and like any other type of drama, it shouldn't be tolerated.
What am I supposed to do, huh? Serve on bended knee, apologizing profusely for the fact I wasn't born with a set of ovaries? Christ almighty, I'm on YOUR side, pointing out the fact that a 'no females' stance is sexist, and that's STILL not good enough for you!
I think you're the one who needs to check their 'crap attitude' at the door. You're not looking for equality, you're looking for special treatment. You're exactly the kind of woman which makes guilds institute 'no females' policies, period. So congratulations on being part of the fucking problem.
AN' DERE AIN'T NO SUCH FING AS ENUFF DAKKA, YA GROT! Enuff'z more than ya got an' less than too much an' there ain't no such fing as too much dakka. Say dere is, and me Squiggoff'z eatin' tonight!
We are born of the blood. Made men by the blood. Undone by the blood. Our eyes are yet to open. FEAR THE OLD BLOOD.
#IStandWithVic
Don't want to sound bland,... BUT:
I already said the bad stuff about democracy in games and i will have to second this "anto female"-idea as well sadly. I NEVER rejected a female player IF the quality as a raider was on par or better then the rest of the team AND we needed that class at the moment. (Used to be a semi hardcore progression guild).
I have had it happen THREE times that a female comes in, starts flirting with guys... starts talking behind someone elses back and we had drama in the guild. The first time we tried to solve it nicely... lost half the guild. The second time we told her to stop or be kicked. We ended up losing half the guild again after a longer while.
The third time we kicked her right away when it started and we lost noone else.
It is sad and i would have done the same to any male player doing the same. But frankly, in the past 15 years of gaming i have seen this kind of crap like a DOZEN times but only once due to a male. And he was gay (really, and not meant as an offence, but a fact he openly admited).
So i fully understand if some people want to skip the drama and set up rules accordingly. In democracy this is forbidden. In games it is not. This has nothing to do with good or bad player. Our best healer and best DDs used to be females. But drama free females. Sadly drama is attached to females like it is to 12-16 year old kids. Sure this does not mean every female or every 12-16 year old causes drama, but chances are high and the negative impact is harsh enough to want to avoid that, if possible.
Edit: Also there are plenty of RL jobs that demand females and do not accept men. This is not even against any laws (in germany at least), but it is against the laws the other way. Hard to make two persons that are so different equal. But funny how we keep trying to make + and - equal, but only onesided, isn't it?
MMOs finally replaced social interaction, forced grouping and standing in a line while talking to eachother.
Now we have forced soloing, forced questing and everyone is the hero, without ever having to talk to anyone else. The evolution of multiplayer is here! We won,... right?
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
I would have taken a step back and created a "Raid Leader" position and had everyone vote. (We know Bob would have won) and then slowed down on the raiding with them and sub catagorizied the other leadership roles to protect yourself. As also posted, the Raiders might have split but if you created the guild and put time and in game money, resources, personal time, etc then you should have taken an admin role and protected yourself and kept doing what you feel was helping the guild for the big picture.
I would also have created a PvP Team Leader postion, and a Crafting Leader postion and kept the highest priority since interests were splitting and not get sucked into the full time raid spot only to get kicked to the curb. I had a similar situation in a 8 man guild with Dark Age of Camelot. It wasn't my guild but at some point the handwriting was on the wall for me, I moved on and found another guild that was just as fun and not nearly uptight as my "serious" PvP guild the first year and a half.
Females can be more emotionally invested when gaming because of the way their brains are wired (feelers more often than thinkers) and I've seen some drama llamas in my gaming heydey of both sexes. I think a stereotype has formed around female games; a stereotype as essential to a well rounded guild as the slow-speaking rogue/assassin who's always stoned. But then, there are stereotypes for a reason.
Just curious, what kind of jobs don't accept men? Just wondering your train of thought. Hope this question isn't coming across as inciting drama...
Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -
have you read nothing of all the posts you quoted? no one is saying the fault lies with women solely. we're saying is the GUYS who get stupid when a woman is nearby. so all that shit you're talking about we're pitting a stereotype against female gamers is just straight up bull.
yes someone may have cited an example or two about a female flirting and what not, but the majority was saying its the guys who just get stupid and wanna white knight any insult or w/e to the female and just shit goes south from there. like i said to jaleena, no one is saying females are bad players or anything, but when you introduce a female in a high competitive setting like raiding where you need everyone to work together for hours at a time and gear disputes could happen at anytime not to mention raid spots...it's almost asking for trouble.
Be the Ultimate Ninja! Play Billy Vs. SNAKEMAN today!
I gotcha. It's for sure a two way street. It's an interesting idea, gender specific guilds. It can avoid potential problems and there are plenty of other guilds out there. Cheers!
Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -
Speaking as a former "Bob", the writing is on the wall. If you choose to see it, that is up to you. I have overthrown 2 guild leaders, 1 in SWTOR and 1 in WoW. Never did it to be a dick, I did it for the benefit of the guild as a whole.
When a Guild has a leader who isn't qualified or inexperienced it hurts the guild as a whole. You did the right thing for the guild but not for you as a player.
The burning question that begs to be asked is
"Why were there people who were "way better geared" than you?"
There are a couple possible reasons but none of them would be worth it. If you would have said, similarly geared or a bit better geared than you, I might have sympathy. If they were that far ahead of you on gear, then you went from being a Guild Leader to being carried. No one wants to carry anyone, pull your own weight or step out.. its only fair.
You need to start a Casual Guild and let it be known from the start that it will never be anything more.
Second Rule.. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR POWER. If you do, then your done. Force them to restart a new guild and rebuild your current one. Doing this keeps your manhood intact, as it stands yours is in your backpack.
Lets see your Battle Stations /r/battlestations
Battle Station
a few thoughts from Da Skull
sometimes in guild politics a cult of personality kind of happens, I know something similar happened when I played Wow. I've actually been on both sides of this behaviour (as in, i've been in your position and in bob's). I dunno why but it's a phenomenon of guild politics in Wow and EQ2. (i never noticed it in EQ1, and in Eve people tend to be super skeptical of ny newcomer for months in any relevant corp) I would say though, that as lng as you had fun for the time you were GM, then dont call it wasted time! you had fun and enjoyed yourself. what more can you want in a game. try to keep it positive and seek people to play with that appreciate you.
as others mentioned it seems like your guild kinda got hijacked from a less intense guild to a more raiding oriented one. Dont lose sleep over it. you know what? the people in your old guild who are worth knowing will seek you out and you wont lose them as friends. the ones who dont were probly not worth it in the first place. and if you put your mind to it then within a week, blam, you will find a new guild to call home and new folks to get to know.
keep it positive. if da skull can do it you can too
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, ESO
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
Henry Rollins
I'm sorry but this is still real life and as others have said if you saw this guy coming you should have did something about it. Hopefully you don't make the same mistake if you try the guild leadership again someday.
And btw there is noway in hell that I would have allowed them to vote me out. I would have kicked EVERYONE out before I did that, and kept the name just to stop them from taking it.
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You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Hmm, I feel sorry for you, OP, but it is also what drew me away from WoW many times. I come from Anarchy Online and was a member of my guild for over 10 years. I was one of the founders. Having a guild in AO is quite easy, get 6 guild-less people together, make a team and type /org create "Name". There you have your guild. You can define the ranks and everything like in WoW, but a major difference in AO is that your guild is more than a raidgroup and a bank. We had about 500 members over the years, many leaders (including me) and a lot to do. But it was never anyones guild, it was our guild. And this is the same for almost all other guilds in AO. We had our officers with different tasks and depending on how many active members we had at a time, also vice officers. There was one for raiding, one for pvp actions (sometimes this was split up into two parts), one recruitment officer, one for newbie/lowlevel training and advice, one for our guild city (yes, not only housing, but cities...), one for rp activities etc. . PvP-action was sometimes split up into land control pvp and regular pvp. Oh, and we had an elders council for our retired leaders. That's what I call a guild.
But it's also something I think is very hard to get in WoW. There's too much pressure due to the lockout timers (which I feel are ridiculous anyways) in WoW, the raid size limitation makes it even worse. For a raiding guild that leads to an A-Team and some leftovers, if there aren't enoug players for a second raid group. I can understand that this system needs something like an harder hierarchy and there's some sort of meaning to the guild leader position, but it wasn't fun for me. We had our fair share of accomplishments in AO, not only faction or server wide. In AO we were able to do what we wanted to do, when we wanted it, how often we wanted it (except some faction/server wide raids with a global timer of 18h at max) and with as many players as we wanted. As you can think, we really grew together over all this and there were no leftovers. Coming from this background, I can say, I really feel sorry for you for losing your guild (as founder and leader of an WoW-guild, I think you're the one most attached to it), but I also feel sorry for many WoW-players (hence, I don't say that this is impossible, but it's a lot harder to accomplish in WoW due to a lack of activities where all guildies can take part in at the same time) who won't experience the type of guild I and most other AO players enjoyed so much.
This ^^
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The only issue with this is once he has #1 there is no reason for him to keep his word on #2.
I have not read the whole thread, so i apologise if i am repeating anything that has already been said.
I think there is one very important thing that a lot of people setting up guilds forget to do before embarking on them and that is to do some basic planing and set up the rules. More importantly, decide what type of guild you want to be and stick to it. I have been in a few social guilds that have then attempted to be raiding guilds and it never works well at all.
Number one though, with all that said, remember that it is 'your' guild, not the members, not the raid leader, 'your' guild!!! If you don't stick with that, you are pretty much doomed to fail from the start.
The guild i am currently heading up has a core membership of six founders, the decision from the start was that no-one other than any of these six could ever be leaders, others could become officers, but never leaders. The guild rules were ingrained and followed to the letter, some ex-members may have seen that as harsh, but again, if you don't stick to what you have set up, you are doomed to fail.
The overriding factor though was, if you don't like the way we run things, there is the door, goodbye and good luck. Again, that wasn't to be nasty or harsh in any way, but that is the way we wanted to run our guild and if you didn't agree then you obviously don't fit in with the ethos that we have decided to run ourselves by and you would be better off finding someone who did match your own game play style.
In the case of the op's story, my attitude personally would have been to say to the 70%, feel free to go start your own guild with Bob as your leader and i do say that from experience when i learned the hard way that raid and social don't generally mix
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
This sort of reminds me of my first raiding guild in WoW.
Our leader was pretty cool, and we would get server firsts on MC and BWL, then he stopped playing due to college. He eventually came back, but then someone else we recruited started leading the raids when he was gone. Eventually, the old leader wanted to be leader again, and that's when the guild fractured and split into two guilds.
Best thing to do is never give up guild leader.
Just rebuild another guild. You seemed capable of doing it the first time.
Lesson learned I guess. Definitely never give up guild leadership. Just let the raiders make their own guild if it comes to that. Everyone will be happier in the end.
Just make a new guild and be clear on the guilds goals. If people outgrow the guild just let them leave amicably.
So sad, but true. I am a very loyal person (you saw this more back in the day MMOs from 1999-2004). Nowadays... while it still exists... it is also quite rare. Most guilds currently feel like revolving doors (although casualization of the genre helped in that regard immensely).
Love Robokapp's comments in this thread... good stuff. Bob's the Putin of WoW: make that into a meme! Love the example with Spartacus.
I have successfully run several guilds in several games. I have run them as dictatorships and democracies, however the one thing I have always done is kept the leadership in my name. Even when a democracy when decisions went against my view and others voices were listened to more, the ultimate power remained in my hands.