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IN THE SPOTLIGHT: What's type of magic system would you in a MMORPG?

Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
Do you like contained classes that you're pretty much blocked into magic abilities? Would you like one like UO were you have a singular spellbook that everyone can use as much or little as you one? Do you prefer open schools of magic that you can mix and match like M59 or Skyrim? Or would you prefer another system?
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Comments

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    UO style - multiple schools that any character can pick or choose from, with no need to have the school maxed or all its spells learned to be effective. UO also blurs the line between spells and skills which works for me, too. 

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • HolophonistHolophonist Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 2,086Member Uncommon
    Neither one is a deal breaker for me but I prefer UO's style. I'm not sure if that's just because I prefer UO though...
  • TheLizardbonesTheLizardbones Arkham, VAPosts: 10,910Member

    I tend to focus in on a particular play style or a particular strength, so limiting characters to a single school of magic seems to work for me. Even in games where the magic is just mix and match, I'll tend towards sticking to one thing and maxing it out.

    I can not remember winning or losing a single debate on the internet.

  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    Corp Por! Kal Vas Flam!

    Pick and choose magic systems = everyone uses the exact same "proven best" spells.

    Balance is always an issue.

    FOTM is a problem etc.

    Class based is certainly more restrictive, and also difficult to balance, but you have a much better chance at balance + build diversity instead of balance or build diversity.

     

  • AlcuinAlcuin Broken State, CAPosts: 310Member Uncommon

    I like the system in Skyrim, but if I were designing and MMO, I would have players choose whether or not they were going to be a magic using character or not.

     

    I have made characters in Skyrim that don't use magic at all.   I find it odd that every single character in the world of the Elder scrolls can shoot fire out of their hands from the get go.  

     

    When I played pen and paper RPG's, I preferred low – magic worlds.  I'm old enough to remember when magic users had a four sided dice for hit points, could only cast one spell per day, could only use a dagger, and couldn't wear any armor.  Maybe that's where my opinion comes from...

     

    none of the current system's bmother me. It's their world. I just play in it.

    _____________________________
    "Ad eundum quo nemo ante iit"

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,667Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by BadSpock

    Corp Por! Kal Vas Flam!

    Pick and choose magic systems = everyone uses the exact same "proven best" spells.

    Balance is always an issue.

    FOTM is a problem etc.

    Class based is certainly more restrictive, and also difficult to balance, but you have a much better chance at balance + build diversity instead of balance or build diversity.

     

    2002 called for you... something about wanting their talking points back.  

    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, though. Can you give recent (past five years sound good?) examples of such systems resulting in everyone uses the exact same "proven best" spells?

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • NovusodNovusod Lakewood, NJPosts: 892Member Uncommon

    These debates have really gotten old and stale. Newer and planned MMOs are already starting to move past this. For example in EQ-Next they going with the weapon = play style model. This is not just a rehash of UO model either.

    Another example is Vindictus where they let mages wear plate armor and the mage isn't just a static caster. Players can pick up a big giant scythe to do damage or use a staff to cast spells.

     

    Even better take a look at the recent Black Desert Online gameplay videos. The way they are doing magic is something never before seen in an MMO. Times they are changing. Move out of the way old school magic the NEW mage is here.

  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Novusod

    These debates have really gotten old and stale. Newer and planned MMOs are already starting to move past this. For example in EQ-Next they going with the weapon = play style model. This is not just a rehash of UO model either.Another example is Vindictus where they let mages wear plate armor and the mage isn't just a static caster. Players can pick up a big giant scythe to do damage or use a staff to cast spells. Even better take a look at the recent Black Desert Online gameplay videos. The way they are doing magic is something never before seen in an MMO. Times they are changing. Move out of the way old school magic the NEW mage is here.

     

    Not sure what your aiming this at? The topic is on preferences. Seems you have stated yours though lol.
  • RydesonRydeson Canton, OHPosts: 3,858Member Uncommon

         I would like a system where a person picks a basic class from one of 3 choices..  1) Magic 2) Melee or 3) Hybrid..  As you asked for those that would pick Magic, From there depending on your location and culture, a person can learn from a school of magic..  This would be that if I'm located in a cultural community in nature, I'm incline to learn "nature" magic as  a druid would.. So for a person to truly learn from ALL the schools they would have to travel for quite some time.. I would also like to see people progress within each school under the same restrictions..  So I person concentrating on becoming a druid, will learn more and stronger spells staying in that community.. If that person would move to a more urban area that focuses on arcane magic, they will not have access to better druid spells, but can learn beginning "arcane" spells..  A person could become a master of Nature, or Arcane, or any one school of magic, but it would almost be next to impossible to be a master of ALL of them...  Personally I would like to see at least 8 - 12 schools in all :)

  • GeezerGamerGeezerGamer ChairPosts: 5,590Member Uncommon
    Ryzom's skill system is a great model. The game itself is left wanting, but the way they have you build your own skills is really good. Take it as a base and expand on it and you've probably got one of the best systems out there. Anyone can lean any skill at any time assuming they have the experience for it. The game calls them "Stanzas". You take the basic spell then add your modifiers to affect what it can do, how powerful it is etc. Generally, you add a modifier that benefits the cast, but then you have to balance that out with something that detracts or costs more.  So higher damage, longer range might cost more Mana or take longer to cast.
  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common

    I love powerful magic - something that can have a huge impact if used right. That said I prefer systems which impose restrictions to keep that powerful magic in balance. If a player can dabble a little bit into anything the magic has to be rather bland in comparison.

    That and I like distinct playstyles.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • DibdabsDibdabs FelvershamPosts: 2,604Member Uncommon
    I'd like a game where I can research my own individual spells and not be the 10,000th mage with the same spells as everyone else.  There's too much uniformity in MMOs.
  • 5Luck5Luck Shelton, CTPosts: 185Member

    Id like to see a system where a char would follow either a deity or cultural path, or even a type pf nature and as you progressed it opens spells. Having some opposing features might make for a balance. All this aside from normal char development and based solely on how you play and the choices you make.

    "The deity or wrath has granted you chaos and marked you with a random element of damage"

  • VyntVynt Glendale, CAPosts: 632Member Uncommon

    I tend to like specialization, not being able to learn everything, but with some diversity. Maybe if someone focused in elemental magic, they might be able to dabble in some of the nature magic, or mind magic or whatever is closely related but could not use any life force stealing magic as a necromancer might use.

    Whatever someone chooses to focus on though, that will be their most powerful spells, and the secondary, tertiary lines will be far inferior.

    I also think that a system can't just be limited to magic. If a person learns to be the greater wielder of fire and lightning, they shouldn't be a blademaster too. Always think back to Forgotten realms books where to be a blademaster or wizard, it took a lifetime of study, so both weren't done.

    Now, that doesn't eliminate someone being great with blades and knows a bit of magic to supplement their craft, but then again, hybrids were never the best at anything, but more diverse and could compete with someone specialized (even exceed because of their diversity).

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    Originally posted by Novusod

    Even better take a look at the recent Black Desert Online gameplay videos. The way they are doing magic is something never before seen in an MMO. Times they are changing. Move out of the way old school magic the NEW mage is here.

    Nothing new under the sun.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • sunandshadowsunandshadow Pittsburgh, PAPosts: 1,046Member Uncommon

    I'd like to see magic used more like a tool and less like direct damage.  Direct damage and direct healing magic are both so BORING.  I want to be able to shapeshift into a dog so I can go eavesdrop on NPCs of an enemy faction.  I want to have genetic engineering spells I can use in pet/mount breeding.  I want to be able to use water elemental magic to pick up a ball of water from a lake, then drain off the actual water and keep the fish.  I want to be able to confuse dumb monsters into killing each other so I can loot the bodies.  I want to make sculptures out of ice or light and magically seal them so they never melt or keep shining in the dark.  Magic has so much potential that games don't use.

    I want to help design and develop a PvE-focused, solo-friendly, sandpark MMO which combines crafting, monster hunting, and story.  So PM me if you are starting one.
  • Vermillion_RaventhalVermillion_Raventhal Oxon Hill, MDPosts: 1,147Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dibdabs
    I'd like a game where I can research my own individual spells and not be the 10,000th mage with the same spells as everyone else.  There's too much uniformity in MMOs.

    I think like you do.  One thing UO beta taught me through a bug was that reagents can control methods to people having access to magic or not.  In the beta test either through an actual bug or unintended design consequences reagents were not spawning in the shops regularly.   That meant you couldn't really do spells unless you stalked the shops or found them.

     

    I'd like to see reagents limit spell usage so you have high ranking spells use rare reagents.  The more powerful the spell the harder to find the reagent.  

     

    I'd like to players be able to craft spells.  

  • rojoArcueidrojoArcueid hell, NJPosts: 6,778Member Uncommon
    I want different magic schoolsi can learn from  like in Skyrim + the freedom and real time spell combination (and effects) system from the game Magicka.

    image
  • AntiquatedAntiquated Oak Brook, MIPosts: 673Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by sunandshadow

    Magic has so much potential that games don't use.

    Most (all?) of those you listed are more than do-able in a pnp setting. Methinks you're just looking in the wrong place.

  • EnrifEnrif PforzheimPosts: 151Member Uncommon

    Some years ago i planned on some stuff for making a game, but i never made it to an developer.

     

    One thing of that was about skills.Basicly a "Learn and Forget" system

    You start with 0% at everything. but when you play you gain up to 100% cumulativ knowledge in skills. 

    But its not a point and click to get those % up. You have to actual use the skills and maintain them. Want to "respec" start using other stuff until you reached the point what you want. But while doing so, your unused skills decay. So you will never have two skills above 50%. You can go super Focused or spread your skills. But higher percentage doesent give "stronger" spells, but more spells of that skillline with new and different effects.

    Examples:

    50% Fire Magic, 50% Water magic =100% skills

    or

    99%Dark Magic, 1%Illusion Magic = 100% skills

    or

    54% Melee, 16%Light Magic, 30%Nature Magic = 100% Skills

    or

    10% in ten different skills = 100%skills

    or 

    100% in Airmagic = 100%skills

     

     

    P.S.:

    An additional system to that above  is a combo skill system that starts if 2 skilllines are above 33%.

    If say you have fire and earth at 40% and air at 20%, you gain acces to special Fire-Earth combo skills.

    if you have 3 skillines at 33% you get the very first of the comboskills and additional triple skills.

    Example you have 33% in fire, earth and air you will get fire-earth, earth-air and air-fire combo skills and fire-earth-air tripple skills.

  • JAFAJAFA AucklandPosts: 33Member Uncommon

    Honestly I want something like Morrowind, where the player builds the spells that suit them from the effects they know.

    Note that I said Morrowind not Skyrim or Oblivion, both of which fail to meet my needs for various reasons (Skyrim should be obvious, Oblivion because of the skill requirements to learn spells, I think skill should control costs & success rates, not so much what is actually possible).

  • SkuallSkuall UnknowPosts: 1,284Member Uncommon

    1 word:

     

    MAGICKA

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member

    I like magic systems that are imaginative and diverse enough to reward creativity. Sadly, these are seldom seen outside of PnP rpgs. 

    Whether magical ability is class based or skill based or memorized, yada yada, makes little difference to me. I am more concerned with the actual application of magical effects being A) creative and/or B) thematically cohesive in regard to the setting and style of the game world.

    Sunandshadow's thoughts on non-traditional magic echo mine as well, in as much as they are conducive to being tied into the game world by more than just putting pixels on justifications for HP fluctuations.

    I hope Voxel-esque technology progresses swiftly. More specifically, I want a completely interactive world with magic or psionic abilities that allow characters to affect matter on a virtually fundamental level instead of just giving them a goddamn fireball at level five/at 20 Destruction. Give players tools and let them use these tools creatively. If Minecraft can begin to do it with craft-based creation, someone can freaking do it with magic already. It's freaking MAGIC.

     

  • WizardryWizardry Ontario, CanadaPosts: 8,447Member Uncommon

    I like EVERYTHING Square Enix did with class design,but that was only a blip ,it can be done with even more depth and better.

    Their idea of a sub class was imo the best thing class design has ever seen but also keeping the sub half was again brilliant.It accomplished two things,it kept the CLASS in the class design but gave each player versatility outside the class.

    Many game designers are just plain lazy,they will toss together a bunch of spells and abilities and tell you to pick from them.Then it really bothers me when designers copy one of the worst ideas in class design,the TREE or point.

    I could just imagine Gandalf the wizard ,he becomes more powerful and stops to allot his points,it is just dumb.Or Gandalf is wandering around with his companions and stops,they ask why are you stopping?Gandalf replies,i have to pick from a tree and alot some more points,just give me a sec,it really makes a joke of the class system.

    Back to square Enix FFXI design,the way you make it better and in more depth is to further elaborate on the weather effects,day effects,elemental effects and player/mob resistances,including all those mentioned and of course various types of weapons.

    Further examples how to improve say the magic system.Wands and staves could carry different properties,Wands better for healing,staves better for damage and both carry other properties like elemental and Staves better for AOE melee while wands better for blunt or single melee.Then you could add other magic elements like Scyth's for death magic,magic to charm and control beasts,magic to control the land or elements,tons and tons of room for depth in this genre,this is absolutely no reason to think this genre is bland or dead,we just need some QUALITY designers and not cheap ones looking to make a profit from the mmorpg tag.


    Samoan Diamond

  • Originally posted by Vermillion_Raventhal
    Originally posted by Dibdabs
    I'd like a game where I can research my own individual spells and not be the 10,000th mage with the same spells as everyone else.  There's too much uniformity in MMOs.

    I think like you do.  One thing UO beta taught me through a bug was that reagents can control methods to people having access to magic or not.  In the beta test either through an actual bug or unintended design consequences reagents were not spawning in the shops regularly.   That meant you couldn't really do spells unless you stalked the shops or found them.

     

    I'd like to see reagents limit spell usage so you have high ranking spells use rare reagents.  The more powerful the spell the harder to find the reagent.  

     

    I'd like to players be able to craft spells.  

    I had forgotten all about those days, back when mages had to run around Moonglow island and other locations gathering up their regs one at a time to be able to cast. It was an interesting bottle-neck to the use of magics back when anyone could have any skills and there wasn't the skill point cap.

     

    I'd say if there was a system in place for magic being usable by any character, then a system that provides a bottle neck would be a good thing. It'd make it so magic isn't something whipped out at every encounter, but can be used for a more powerful effect to really turn the tides.  Right now in MMOs I feel that magic is essentially the same as using a bow and arrow, it often does the same damage and has the same effects, which for me kinda ruins the point of being the glass cannon of a magic.

     

    I think the resource gathering method is a little outdated for a bottleneck, esepecially in the days of easy to use scripting languages where bots can be made by amateur programmers in under a day. Perhaps a time based bottleneck would be better for the modern MMOs?

     

    Maybe a system where a player can pick X number of schools to be from. So say they have 3 schools, they may choose an armored combat school, a swordsman school, and a earth magic school; or another player may choose a more pure magic going with a fire magic school, a water magic school, and a wind magic school. Each school could allow X number of spell uses from that school per hour While magic would have a much higher cooldown compared to melee combat with almost no cooldown, it would in turn have a much more impactful effect rather then just being the equivilent to an arrow hit.

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