Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Fuzzy Avatars Solved! Please re-upload your avatar if it was fuzzy!

What makes PvP "meaningful"?

2

Comments

  • Quazal.AQuazal.A PrestonPosts: 498Member Uncommon

    To be honest the only game ive 'fully' PvPd in was Eve

    But reason why that game are succesful at being a full pvp game are below

     

    1. Dying has a consequence, from the simple loss of ship, but if your not careful you can lose your entire wealth, your implants, your pod, losing your pod without updating clone can mean loss of SP - (i mysyelf lost over 25days of training becuase i was a numpty) 
    2. It has an effect somewhere else, CCP pride themselves on the term ripple effect, If your in faction and/or alliance warfare you diretly effecting the maps for everyone else in game. Something small can be something big 
    3. Everyone in game knows its pvp, but EvE (of the games ive played) have over time managed to get the balance right between the safer and non safe areas, yes everytime you undock your liable to be killed, but the whole Concord thing is a bi-product of your killing in highsec, never mind this whole 'criminal' thing.
    4. Its not about the SP (xp) its about skill, and as much as the players who never got into think otherwise the skill factor will be the biggest deciding factor in a fight
    5. Its not about gear, I can link countless kills where a small frigate sized ship has taken down a large Battleship sized ship, through careful choosing target and doing it the hard/slow way
    Too many games make PvP very gear specific as in, if you pvp you get points/rewards which make you better at pvp etc, instead of focussing on making all gear equal in pvp, forget having different resist for pve/pvp just make it same and the gear treadmill becomes different.

    This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
    Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  • QuirhidQuirhid TamperePosts: 5,969Member Common
    What sort of PvP a player finds meaningful is entirely subjective. Some people like to siege virtual castles, some people want to compete in ladder rankings.

    I skate to where the puck is going to be, not where it has been -Wayne Gretzky

  • lindhskylindhsky Helsingborg, FLPosts: 129Member Uncommon

    In DAOC they had stuff like:

    - If you had more keeps than the enemies you got access to a huge dungeon called DARKNESS FALL. In there you could farm seals which was good for the economy and crafting.

    . They had Relics. And if your faction took the relics you had bonus to stats (don't remember exactly what). But it made it easier for the people that leveled up so when you got that message that your faction took a relic all got happy no matter what level. In todays games I am not sure we would get the same effect since gamedevelopers make everything so easy already so 10% more in damage doesn't matter. Back then it did.

     

    Stuff like that makes PvP matter. But for them to be of any matter at all they first need a good economy system in the game and perhaps a good crafting system. For an example, getting high crafting in DAOC was not easy and just a few had the money and the patience. So the rest of us needed money to be able to hire them when we needed our armor and our spellcrafting.

    So when I helped taking a keep that gave us darkness falls I...

    - Knew I could get more money.

    - For the money I could get armor that someone else made.

    - For the money I could let someone spellcraft the newly made armor I just bought.

    This took time but it made me a better hero. The armor then lost durability. Very slowly of course. But you would need a crafter in the future as well and you knew that.

     

    In todays games you get everything for free. It is so easy to get max crafting that all are doing it. And since all have it and you can get gear in the dungeons anyway you don't have to hire the crafters. And since we can keep our gear forever we dont need the crafters more than once if ever.

    A good PVP system should give bonuses to the side that is winning right now. Perhaps giving them more money, more resources, bonuses. In my opinion.

  • JoeyMMOJoeyMMO SomewherePosts: 1,326Member

    Meaningful PvP is usually considered to be PvP where you have something to win or lose other than "bragging rights".

    In the open world it's easy to consider PvP to nearly always be meaningful. You could gather a resource, steal a drop, kill a mob that doesn't spawn much but drops rare loot because you killed the player that beat you to the spot, stuff like that. Or worse you can make players lose XP or have them drop one of their items, from inventory or worn or both. That kind of stuff will make kills meaningful in PvP.

    If there is nothing to really win or lose, then it's just entertainment.

    If you enter a 1 on 1 arena and the winner gets all of the losers gear that could have taken him several weeks to acquire, that's pretty meaningful. If losing several levels of experience or even permadeath is involved, well, that's about as meaningful as it can get.

    Mind you, lots of people that claim they are looking for meaningful PvP, are not really looking for the really meaningful PvP, just a bit of meaning is enough for most. When there is nothing at stake to win or lose it's considered meaningless by many, just something to pass the time.

    imageimage
  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,546Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Quazal.A

    To be honest the only game ive 'fully' PvPd in was Eve

    But reason why that game are succesful at being a full pvp game are below

     

    1. Dying has a consequence, from the simple loss of ship, but if your not careful you can lose your entire wealth, your implants, your pod, losing your pod without updating clone can mean loss of SP - (i mysyelf lost over 25days of training becuase i was a numpty) 
    2. It has an effect somewhere else, CCP pride themselves on the term ripple effect, If your in faction and/or alliance warfare you diretly effecting the maps for everyone else in game. Something small can be something big 
    3. Everyone in game knows its pvp, but EvE (of the games ive played) have over time managed to get the balance right between the safer and non safe areas, yes everytime you undock your liable to be killed, but the whole Concord thing is a bi-product of your killing in highsec, never mind this whole 'criminal' thing.
    4. Its not about the SP (xp) its about skill, and as much as the players who never got into think otherwise the skill factor will be the biggest deciding factor in a fight
    5. Its not about gear, I can link countless kills where a small frigate sized ship has taken down a large Battleship sized ship, through careful choosing target and doing it the hard/slow way
    Too many games make PvP very gear specific as in, if you pvp you get points/rewards which make you better at pvp etc, instead of focussing on making all gear equal in pvp, forget having different resist for pve/pvp just make it same and the gear treadmill becomes different.

    The main reason why EvE works while other games like Darkfall fail is because of highsec. CCP themself official said that most players spend their time in highsec.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

    "The ability to speak doesn't make you intelligent" - Qui-gon Jinn. After many years of reading Internet forums, there's no doubt that neither does the ability to write.
    So if you notice that I'm no longer answering your nonsense, stop trying... because you just joined my block list.

  • I started pvp with Ulitima Online in I think 1996 and while I loved the game I absolutely hated the player killing feature. I must not of been alone as a safe world was added where you couldn't be attacked and I promptly lost interest in the game. Now I realize it was the danger factor that made the game seem real and exciting and I have some fond memories of some epic times that I could go on and on about but that UO is gone forever and I don't expect it to be seen again in this "mmo's must be simple, unchallenging and most of all safe".

    You just can't have anyone interrupting your single player fun and have the game appeal to the masses. And that's what it takes, mass appeal. I've taken part in many different kinds of pvp since then and with the exception of lotro it's been the pointless I'll kill you then you kill me type and some of it has been fun up to a point but not memorable.

    So for me pvp has to be ingrained in the fabric of a mmo that entices all types of players. Crafters, adventurers, explorers and those pesky interlopers, player killers to game together along with areas where players congregate to perform their functions and watch the spectacle of human interaction. That's what I feel is needed.

  • PWN_FACEPWN_FACE SeoulPosts: 670Member
    Originally posted by jeddak

    ...I've taken part in many different kinds of pvp since then and with the exception of lotro it's been the pointless I'll kill you then you kill me type and some of it has been fun up to a point but not memorable.

     

    I've  never really heard that LoTRO was much of a pvp game. I'm not sure I understood what you meant in that  sentence. Could you say more about what you meant?

     

    I agree with that list about pvp being "ingrained into the fabric" of an mmo, at least as a starting point. Sadly, I never got to play UO during the time you are talking about.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    What sort of PvP a player finds meaningful is entirely subjective. Some people like to siege virtual castles, some people want to compete in ladder rankings.

    I don't think it's totally subjective.

    Meaningful pvp usually rewards the team or side.

    Meaningless pvp usually rewards the individual.

    One may like a type of pvp more or less, but I think most people would say EVE has more meaningful PVP than COD, though the entertainment levels can be subjective.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • Quazal.AQuazal.A PrestonPosts: 498Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Jean-Luc_Picard
    Originally posted by Quazal.A

    To be honest the only game ive 'fully' PvPd in was Eve

    But reason why that game are succesful at being a full pvp game are below

     

    1. Dying has a consequence, from the simple loss of ship, but if your not careful you can lose your entire wealth, your implants, your pod, losing your pod without updating clone can mean loss of SP - (i mysyelf lost over 25days of training becuase i was a numpty) 
    2. It has an effect somewhere else, CCP pride themselves on the term ripple effect, If your in faction and/or alliance warfare you diretly effecting the maps for everyone else in game. Something small can be something big 
    3. Everyone in game knows its pvp, but EvE (of the games ive played) have over time managed to get the balance right between the safer and non safe areas, yes everytime you undock your liable to be killed, but the whole Concord thing is a bi-product of your killing in highsec, never mind this whole 'criminal' thing.
    4. Its not about the SP (xp) its about skill, and as much as the players who never got into think otherwise the skill factor will be the biggest deciding factor in a fight
    5. Its not about gear, I can link countless kills where a small frigate sized ship has taken down a large Battleship sized ship, through careful choosing target and doing it the hard/slow way
    Too many games make PvP very gear specific as in, if you pvp you get points/rewards which make you better at pvp etc, instead of focussing on making all gear equal in pvp, forget having different resist for pve/pvp just make it same and the gear treadmill becomes different.

    The main reason why EvE works while other games like Darkfall fail is because of highsec. CCP themself official said that most players spend their time in highsec.

    Aye point 3 of mine :) the balance between pve and pvp is key in EvE but even the players (exc the least knowlegable of the game) know that even highsec isn't safe :)

    One of the biggest things i used to teach people in the n00b channel was Highsec is NOT safe sec :) learn that distinction and your goign to do ok lol :)

    This post is all my opinion, but I welcome debate on anything i have put, however, personal slander / name calling belongs in game :) were of course your welcome to call me names im often found lounging about in EvE online.
    Use this code for 21days trial in eve online https://secure.eveonline.com/trial/?invc=d385aff2-794a-44a4-96f1-3967ccf6d720&action=buddy

  • ShadanwolfShadanwolf Posts: 2,114Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

    A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

     

    Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

    OP

    Persistent world....24/7....3 factions

    currently DAOC is the undisputed gold standard of faction warfare imo

    Elder Scrolls Online has a chance to be the next king of persistent world faction warfare.

  • SpottyGekkoSpottyGekko RotterdamPosts: 3,845Member Uncommon

    "Meaningfull PVP" in an MMO to me is what happens at a strategic level, such as persistant city, keep or territory control. If you can drive your opponents out of an area of the game world and then hold that area indefinitely by defending it. The kind of game play that takes place in EVE-Online's lawless space.

     

    What happens during actual combat is tactical, so I'm not too fussed about whether it's FFA-PVP or not, as long as there is some mechanism that stops your enemy from simply respawning endlessly. In EVE, you lose combat assets which can't be instantly replaced indefinitely. In WWII-Online you had battalions with limited equipment and troop numbers, once they were all killed the battalion was defeated and the objective lost.

  • LeGrosGamerLeGrosGamer Canada, QCPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

    A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

     

    Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

    The best PvP I'ver ever played on a MMO are on NexusTK  and EVE-Online.  Granted EVE-Online is high risk, BUT getting the isk (currency) back to buy / build back what you lost takes no time at all. 

      NexusTK is all about PvP community plus team work and perfect timing.

    Oh and I forgot to mention Shattered Galaxy, SG was the best PvP by far! :D

  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Unknown, AZPosts: 192Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by FinalFikus
    Originally posted by Quirhid
    What sort of PvP a player finds meaningful is entirely subjective. Some people like to siege virtual castles, some people want to compete in ladder rankings.

    I don't think it's totally subjective.

    Meaningful pvp usually rewards the team or side.

    Meaningless pvp usually rewards the individual.

    One may like a type of pvp more or less, but I think most people would say EVE has more meaningful PVP than COD, though the entertainment levels can be subjective.

    Pvp for the sake of pvp is not meaingful. If your reward is tokens to get gear that allowed you to pvp better and for bragging rights then its not meaningful; just meaningful on a personal level to those whom like to have the most kills, least deaths, ect.

    Meaningful is if it has a direct impact on the player, their character and the game world. Then again I could be bias because I like the Darkfall, full loot, territory control system.

    MurderHerd

  • VidirVidir GothenburgPosts: 944Member Uncommon
    Nothing.
  • NovusodNovusod Lakewood, NJPosts: 892Member Uncommon

    Meaningful PvP means you can deny others access to content by defeating them in battle. EVE is the most obvious example. You have to fight for the right to mine ore in the popular areas. It was the same way in Star Wars Galaxies. The best harvesting spots were war zones full of PvP. If you won the battle you gained access to the ore and chased off the losers. That is what meaningful PvP really is about. It has a lasting impact on what you can experience in the game. Lineage II also have very meaningful PvP through castle sieges and only the winners in PvP would gain access to the castles.

     

    The issue is most people are carebears who do NOT want meaningful PvP.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member
    Originally posted by Novusod

    Meaningful PvP means you can deny others access to content by defeating them in battle. EVE is the most obvious example. You have to fight for the right to mine ore in the popular areas. It was the same way in Star Wars Galaxies. The best harvesting spots were war zones full of PvP. If you won the battle you gained access to the ore and chased off the losers. That is what meaningful PvP really is about. It has a lasting impact on what you can experience in the game. Lineage II also have very meaningful PvP through castle sieges and only the winners in PvP would gain access to the castles.

     

    The issue is most people are carebears who do NOT want meaningful PvP.

    SWG did not work that way.

    But, yes meaningful pvp usually rewards the team. The issue is progression. People are pretty normal.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Novusod

    Meaningful PvP means you can deny others access to content by defeating them in battle. EVE is the most obvious example. You have to fight for the right to mine ore in the popular areas. It was the same way in Star Wars Galaxies. The best harvesting spots were war zones full of PvP. If you won the battle you gained access to the ore and chased off the losers. That is what meaningful PvP really is about. It has a lasting impact on what you can experience in the game. Lineage II also have very meaningful PvP through castle sieges and only the winners in PvP would gain access to the castles.

     

    The issue is most people are carebears who do NOT want meaningful PvP.

    SWG had no zone of control ( other than inside a player city ), and you couldn't stop someone from dropping a harvester if there was space. If they weren't flagged you couldn't do anything to them at all.

  • neosapienceneosapience Reno, NVPosts: 164Member

    In MMOs, PvP is about customers paying for the privilege of wasting another customers time, without being required to have any skill whatsoever.

     

    Seriously, there will never be an MMO with meaningful PvP. That would require PvP to be based on player skill and your average MMO player has virtually none. The game would be dominated by small, hardcore groups of gamers and that would drive the customer base elsewhere. It's simply impossible to balance PvP in MMOs without reducing them to either giant zergfests or a meaningless arenas.

     

    Sure, it's fun to have your name at the top of the list, but MMOs aren't the best venue for that kind of game play.

    Unless you're a sociopath with control issues. Then you'll probably love the PvP in most MMOs.

  • Dren_UtogiDren_Utogi OuterSpacePosts: 1,708Member Uncommon
    taking ecerything someone has on them . Losing everything you have on you. City seiging in open world. Basically, Shadowbane.

    reviews are !@#$ing stupid. Play what you love.

  • 73igg73igg glasgrow, PAPosts: 2Member
    No faction, every man for themself.
  • battlewagonbattlewagon Key West, FLPosts: 13Member

    For me, "meaningful PVP" means that there is some ingame ramification to winning or losing.  It is not simply instance in, kill people for x number of minutes, and then see who comes out champions.  For meaningful PVP, you got to have a reason to do it and a reward for doing it. 

    In some MMOs, it simply is to control resources.  Others, it is to gain better gear.  But for me a better PVP environment is one in which PVP has an impact on the gaming world.  Lose a fight, you lose a territory.  Lose enough territory and it impacts everything from leveling to crafting and even traveling in the world.

     

  • JJ82JJ82 Chicago, ILPosts: 1,177Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

    A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

    That is because there cannot be a consensus. its subjective.

    I personally find NO meaning in PvP if there is a reward or something to be gained. Its a shiny, its fake, false, created for you, a carrot on a stick in front of the face of a mule to get it to move. if something must be placed in front of your face to coerce you into action then how can the action have meaning? If it had meaning, you wouldn't need to be coerced into doing it.

    For something to have actual meaning, you must give it meaning, not someone else. And so, I prefer PvP that is just there for when YOU want to do it which means you are doing it for fun, because you actually WANT to do it, not because you have to in order to gain a reward. This is the very reason why I hate DaoC with a passion, it ruined PvP in the genre with fake pride and false meaning.

    "People who tell you you’re awesome are useless. No, dangerous.

    They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster
    http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/

  • battlewagonbattlewagon Key West, FLPosts: 13Member

    I may not be able to answer what is meaningful PVP, but I do know what it is not.

    In a word, "Huttball".

  • BadaboomBadaboom Moose Jaw, SKPosts: 2,380Member

    Meaningful pvp to me has to involve certain mechanics:

    1) Open world pvp. 

    Restrictions by separating areas that you can or cannot pvp cheapen or devalue pvp.

    2) What are you pvp'ing over?

    Meaningful pvp involves more than just killing someone.  It is taking something of value that the other person owned, controlled or maintained. 

    3) Meaningful travel

    When people are zippy dippy do da'ing all over the place in the form of teleports, it destroys the ability for an enemy to attack the supply lines, or cut off the enemy from its allies etc.  Which leads me to number four.

    4) Local banking

    Having a central base of operations in which you are supplied makes it important to choose wisely if your neighbor is an enemy or a useful ally.  Moving goods from point A to point B becomes meaningful and potentially contested.

    5)Single Character

    This promotes accountability for your actions...for good or bad.

    6) Free for all

    I'm on the fence about this one so let me explain my reasoning for mentioning it.  A player in a game with restricted pvp elements that tell you cannot kill the same faction is open for abuse in that you effectively stop it.  With no restrictions however, this obstacle is now removed and you can kill if you so choose.  This does not imply that their should not be an alignment penalty, so as long as people are free to choose to do as they will. 

  • Viper482Viper482 Somewhere, FLPosts: 994Member Uncommon

    When I think meaningful pvp I think old school UO and Daoc.

    In UO guild alliances/warfare, player killers, player killer hunters, etc was all good fun. The thing that made it meaningful was if you wanted to be an ass and kill everyone on site you would be labeled a murderer and pay a price for it. You would be banned from cities and your name would turn red so everyone knew what you were and could kill you without penalty. Due to this there was a small enough percentage of these people to make the game playable, but just enough to still make it dangerous. In addition to them you would have their minions who were just bad enough to get bad titles, but not bad enough to be labeled murderers. Someone with a good title could also fool you into being lured out to a killer, which was another dynamic. Was this meaningful? Depends on your point of view. But it was the best pvp model I have seen. Bottom line is there should be consequences in all things, when you can just go kos people at will randomly that is boring.

    My other favorite pvp genre is actually realm vs realm. Nothing is more meaningful than your side vs. their side and fighting over static areas that belong to you, like in Daoc. In Daoc you would be willing to fight for zero reward if it just meant kicking one of the other realms asses out of your lands. THAT is as meaningful as it gets.

2
Sign In or Register to comment.