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What makes PvP "meaningful"?

PWN_FACEPWN_FACE SeoulPosts: 670Member

A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

 

Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

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Comments

  • DistopiaDistopia Baltimore, MDPosts: 16,915Member Uncommon
    Typically all they mean by that is something to gain or lose in PVP.

    For every minute you are angry , you lose 60 seconds of happiness."-Emerson

    It is a sign of a defeated man, to attack at ones character in the face of logic and reason- Me

  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member

    I saw a thread on the front page asking about it and wondered the same thing :)

    I'm a pve player that tends to avoid pvp in mmos. I like more world of tanks style but if I was going to pvp in a mmo the features I like are

    Large scale world pvp. I like pvp to be more about a team effort than 1 on 1. 

    Not about loot or gear or earning points to buy gear. Any time I've ever done battle ground pvp it's like being in a zombie herd. Run up road into a mass slaughter hope to get one or two aoe attacks off and then die to the enemy zerg...respawn ...repeat. They're more about points per hour or grinding to the next gear level than actually kill or taking an objective.

    So if it's not about any of those it has to give some other benefit. Like the area giving some type of advantage or resource etc that a faction can use. The more pve elements that surround pvp the more interested I am in it when it comes to mmos. Things like crafting, resource control, access to dungeons. Those are things I think are worth fighting for control over.

    It would probably be easier to explain what meaningless pvp is and work backwards from there :)

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

    A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

     

    Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

    Pretty simple. If losing a PVP battle means you actually lose territory or resources or something else tangible in the game it's meaningful. If there's no penalty for losing (or something completely insignificant) and the only motivation for doing it is bragging rights   than it isn't.

     

    I'm only interested in meaningful PVP  in MMOs.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon

    The answer is entirely subjective, but for me it means that it affects the ecosystem, open world territory control or economy in a significant way. Some examples of meaningful PVP combat for me are/were:

    • Shadowbane - city sieges, rune guarding and Paundril Plains (area for farming for gold for cities) battles
    • DAoC - keep battles
    • EVE Online - alliance warfare, factional warfare
    • Asheron's Call - holding your monarchy's city
    • Ultima Online -  controlling dungeons
    • Puzzle Pirates - blockades
    • Grepolis/Ikariam/Lords of Ultima/etc(PBBGs) - map conquest

     

     

     

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • IsilithTehrothIsilithTehroth Unknown, AZPosts: 200Member Uncommon

    Simple risk verse reward. For this you need full loot or partial loot drop systems on death and/or territory control where you can build, destroy and conquer buildings and land as well as mob spawns are rare resource areas.

    That is why modern mmorpgs die; they have nothing like this to retain the players.

    MurderHerd

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Since "meaning" is relative to each individual, I don't think a consensus is likely, but generally it tends to mean PvP with risk vs. reward dynamics that make the consequences and results of conflict matter in regard to the game world itself.
  • MardukkMardukk Posts: 1,558Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    The answer is entirely subjective, but for me it means that it affects the ecosystem, open world territory control or economy in a significant way. Some examples of meaningful PVP combat for me are/were:

    • Shadowbane - city sieges, rune guarding and Paundril Plains (area for farming for gold for cities) battles
    • DAoC - keep battles
    • EVE Online - alliance warfare, factional warfare
    • Asheron's Call - holding your monarchy's city
    • Ultima Online -  controlling dungeons
    • Puzzle Pirates - blockades
    • Grepolis/Ikariam/Lords of Ultima/etc(PBBGs) - map conquest

     

     

     

    This.  I'm currently playing DFUW and I don't love PvP.  The way to get a PvE player to PvP is to put his hunting grounds on the line through the potential loss of his clan city.  I don't like PvP enough to just PvP with nothing on the line (instanced battlegrounds and really all themepark PvP).

    I go out and farm certain components to rebuild the clan city.  It can even give PvE further meaning than gear tiers.

  • tristanryantristanryan Elkton, VAPosts: 233Member

    - Item Decay (this keeps the economic and crafting side of the game running)

    - Player Looting (this can go overboard, quickly, but can absolutely be balanced and fun, as well as economic benefits)

    - Item Loss (not just player looting)

    - XP Loss

    - Proper scoring / scoreboards (where healers and support also are accounted for)

    - Achievements

    - Rewards

    - Hero and Criminal System is an important priority for open world

     

    These are just a few examples, and some will not work in a battleground scenario but will in open world, and the other way around. PvP needs to give you something to fight for, or at least make you not want to die. Some games have some of these options, but are so poor in other areas it doesn't even matter.

    The most important factor is class balance. Without balance PvP and/or meaningful PvP isn't fun, ever. Games of today play the class balancing roller coaster act on purpose. Its usually heavily weighed to the most popular classes to keep subscriptions up.

  • I think meaningful for me is different then for most 'hardcore' Pvpers.

     

    For me I find meaning in it being a test of skill and being able to prove my skill was better then my opponents. Be that skill with coordinating and supporting team mates, or skill in playing the game and getting the timing right. For me games like league of legends, or the world of warcraft battlegrounds are the most meaningful since teams always start with even numbers and supplies, and you win or lose based on skill and decisions you make in the heat of battle.

     

    On the flip side of things game like ultima online and eve online I didn't find the pvp all that meaningful. The outcome of the battles were decided long before the battles started, usually by whoever has the largest numbers, and thus they didn't satisfy my need for skill. I won't argue that skill doesn't play a part in some of the battles for these games, but most of the PvP in these games is decided by preperation, and thus for me isn't as meaningful of an experince, impactful yes, but meaningful, no.

     

    I guess it comes down to what you are looking for. Are you looking to prove your worth as a combatant, if so then League of Legends or WoW's battlegrounds/arenas are a great fit. On the other hand if you are looking to prove your worth as a tactician then Eve and Ultima Online would probably be the better fit, even though they didn't do anything for me personally.

  • LoktofeitLoktofeit Stone Mountain, GAPosts: 13,676Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Guler

    I think meaningful for me is different then for most 'hardcore' Pvpers.

    For me I find meaning in it being a test of skill and being able to prove my skill was better then my opponents. Be that skill with coordinating and supporting team mates, or skill in playing the game and getting the timing right. For me games like league of legends, or the world of warcraft battlegrounds are the most meaningful since teams always start with even numbers and supplies, and you win or lose based on skill and decisions you make in the heat of battle.

    On the flip side of things game like ultima online and eve online I didn't find the pvp all that meaningful. The outcome of the battles were decided long before the battles started, usually by whoever has the largest numbers, and thus they didn't satisfy my need for skill. I won't argue that skill doesn't play a part in some of the battles for these games, but most of the PvP in these games is decided by preperation, and thus for me isn't as meaningful of an experince, impactful yes, but meaningful, no.

    I guess it comes down to what you are looking for. Are you looking to prove your worth as a combatant, if so then League of Legends or WoW's battlegrounds/arenas are a great fit. On the other hand if you are looking to prove your worth as a tactician then Eve and Ultima Online would probably be the better fit, even though they didn't do anything for me personally.

    I'm glad you posted that. I was hoping that WOW's battlegrounds would come up, as it's a great example of how 'meaningful' can vary from person to person.

    There isn't a "right" or "wrong" way to play, if you want to use a screwdriver to put nails into wood, have at it, simply don't complain when the guy next to you with the hammer is doing it much better and easier. - Allein
    "Graphics are often supplied by Engines that (some) MMORPG's are built in" - Spuffyre

  • KnyttaKnytta Corning, NYPosts: 349Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by iridescence

    Pretty simple. If losing a PVP battle means you actually lose territory or resources or something else tangible in the game it's meaningful. If there's no penalty for losing (or something completely insignificant) and the only motivation for doing it is bragging rights   than it isn't.

     

    yes good idea but as seen in  so many games "when we loose this much i will change my alignment for the winning side" Not many people will play the underdog just for the fun of it (and lets face it is not that much fun about it).

     

     

     

    Chi puo dir com'egli arde é in picciol fuoco.

    He who can describe the flame does not burn.

    Petrarch


  • BanquettoBanquetto CityPosts: 1,037Member Uncommon
    "Meaningful" is generally code for PvP which allows you to make an unwilling opponent genuinely unhappy due to them genuinely losing something.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by Banquetto
    "Meaningful" is generally code for PvP which allows you to make an unwilling opponent genuinely unhappy due to them genuinely losing something.

    I don't agree with that at all. In battleground or territory battles or even full loot games, if someone is an unwilling opponent they're playing the wrong game....or at least in the case of a battleground they don't belong in that part of it.

    I don't think meaningful has to mean griefer.

  • YoungCaesarYoungCaesar San Diego, CAPosts: 297Member Uncommon
    I think, in the context of a sandbox, its where you fight for territory control or resources, something that has an impact in a persistent onlineworld
  • PWN_FACEPWN_FACE SeoulPosts: 670Member

    I don't know if we will see a "consensus" emerge, but I think we can see some frequent items pop up, whether people agree with them or not. 

     

    For example, one of the very divisive points seems to be full-loot and partial-loot. Open-world v instanced pvp is another. 

     

    Another thing I wonder about is whether guild-driven pvp is or factional pvp is preferable, or in which circumstances one type is better than the other. I never played DAoC in its heyday, so I'm curious as to how a true three-faction balance works out. Camelot Unchained and ESO may give some insight into that. I am curious (and hopeful) to see how those work out.

     

    What do you guys think about guild-based and faction-based pvp?

  • bcbullybcbully Westland, MIPosts: 8,281Member Uncommon
    something lost and something gained.
  • DamonVileDamonVile Vancouver, BCPosts: 4,818Member
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

     

    What do you guys think about guild-based and faction-based pvp?

    The game has to be designed around it. AoC had a great concept for guild warfare, they just didn't have the game that could handle it. If what they had actually worked it would of been pretty epic. What it ended up being was a laggy pos that had so many lame exploits no one really ended up doing it and cities became ghost towns. Eve is another guild based one but I think it's become so large you could almost call it faction now :)

    Faction can be fun but it involves the whole server. Much larger scale and tends to be much less "personal " I thin kit's hard to motivate a whole faction in todays games. People just seem to take the position of " someone else will do that " 

    I think if you want to sustain pvp over longer periods of time guild vrs guild would give people more incentives to keep fighting.  To protect what the guild owns. And what it owns makes the players feel like they own it...or at least more so than a whole faction.

  • RamanadjinnRamanadjinn Huntsville, ALPosts: 1,365Member Uncommon

    I'm sorry if someone pointed this out and i missed it.  Lots of good points so far.

    But in some games, like Eve Online or Mortal Online, it can drive the economy(if that is the right word). Regardless, I will clarify.

    Loss and destruction of items creates demand for new player crafted items which creates a demand for crafters which creates a constant demand for gatherers which creates a constant demand for control of good resource points.

    To me, that sort of PvP that is well integrated into a game in this manner is one way I consider it "meaningful."  It doesn't exist just to exist, it exists for a vital reason.

     

  • PsyMike3dPsyMike3d AthensPosts: 388Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

    A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

     

    Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

    For me, the PvP is meaningful, when the element of fear and constant awareness exists!

  • azzamasinazzamasin Butler, OHPosts: 3,058Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by PWN_FACE

    A lot of people seem to ask for this in games, but I don't think I've seen any kind of consensus emerge as to what the elements of "meaningful" PvP might be.

     

    Are there any examples of meaningful PvP? What are the specific things that made it meaningful? What would make you PvP if you normally stick with PvE?

    For me?  Nothing, I think it detracts from what a true MMO and more importantly what a true RPG is about.  Exploration and progression.

     

    I would literally give my left arm for a great, deep, and progressive PvE ONLY MMO.

    Sandbox means open world, non-linear gaming PERIOD!

    Subscription Gaming, especially MMO gaming is a Cash grab bigger then the most P2W cash shop!

    Bring Back Exploration and lengthy progression times. RPG's have always been about the Journey not the destination!!!

    image

  • PWN_FACEPWN_FACE SeoulPosts: 670Member
    Originally posted by DamonVile

    Faction can be fun but it involves the whole server. Much larger scale and tends to be much less "personal " I thin kit's hard to motivate a whole faction in todays games. People just seem to take the position of " someone else will do that " 

    This is a good point. What if people could only reap the rewards if they in some way contributed to the war effort, whether that be access to resources, stat boosts (I don't really like this type of reward), or whatever?

  • iridescenceiridescence Elliot Lake, ONPosts: 1,486Member
    Originally posted by azzamasin
     what a true RPG is about.  Exploration and progression.

     

     

    Which RPG have you played that didn't involve a large amount of killing some kind of creature? Particularly which computer RPG?

     

    Not saying there's anything wrong with disliking PvP but there's nothing "anti-RPG" about it.

     

     

  • Jean-Luc_PicardJean-Luc_Picard La BarrePosts: 3,549Member Uncommon

    It's the difference between killing each other just because you can, without any reason, except possibly being an asshole and ruining someone else's day, and killing each other to achieve an objective.

    FFA PvP games usually end in mindless uninteresting gank fests, which explains why most people aren't interested in those games and that they all fail.

    Playing now: WoW, Landmark, GW2, The Crew, SotA

    Top 3 MMORPGs played: UO, AC1 and WoW

    Honorable mentions: AO, LotRO, SW:TOR and GW2.

    ----------------

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  • ScotScot UKPosts: 5,769Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Loktofeit

    The answer is entirely subjective, but for me it means that it affects the ecosystem, open world territory control or economy in a significant way. Some examples of meaningful PVP combat for me are/were:

    • Shadowbane - city sieges, rune guarding and Paundril Plains (area for farming for gold for cities) battles
    • DAoC - keep battles
    • EVE Online - alliance warfare, factional warfare
    • Asheron's Call - holding your monarchy's city
    • Ultima Online -  controlling dungeons
    • Puzzle Pirates - blockades
    • Grepolis/Ikariam/Lords of Ultima/etc(PBBGs) - map conquest

    Spot on. What we mostly get currently is rewards which make you better at PvP (not too bad), cosmetics, badges and titles. PvP has been turned into a sort of contested daily.

  • FinalFikusFinalFikus Chicago, ILPosts: 906Member

    Meaningful PVP has peace.

    Meaningless PVP doesn't.

    "If the Damned gave you a roadmap, then you'd know just where to go"

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