LFR/LFD would have been amazing tools if they had limited it to people from your server only. If you knew there was a good chance you would see these people again, and you knew there was the distinct possibility of gaining a reputation if you were an ass, then there is far more incentive to not only behave well but also to socialize.
For most people it's hard to get too excited about socializing with nameless faceless people you will most likely never see again. Just like there is very little consequence to being a jerk to nameless faceless people you will most likely never see again.
Here's a really simple two cents that many of these discussions seem to miss entirely, or which often is just buried by blind rage and elitism:
Player CHOICE: good or bad? Pretty sure most of us with even a modicum of common sense would say that player choice is good, eh? As a matter of fact, the most successful MMOs in history (I would argue that WoW and Gw 1 hold that title, although some of you may interject others as your opinions go) provided the most player choice of them all, hence their long-term success.
And so, when it comes to dungeon finders or LFD or LFG: if you don't like them, don't use them. It really is as simple as that. If you've always got 16 buddies online or believe for some reason that LFG tools are for noobs, then simply put, don't use them. These tools are OPTIONAL, not required. I've used them quite a bit and love them; however, this does not mean that everyone will agree, or that everyone will use them.
Why these arguments even ensue is beyond me. What other players do with THEIR play time, and how other people choose to progress through THEIR content, is none of my business, and none of yours, either.
That simple enough?
Player choice is great in the context of providing lots of different types of games for people to play. Player choice is not so great in the context of trying to accomodate too many wildly divergent and contradictory play styles within the same game. Simply put the mechanics of the game will effect game play for ALL the players playing it. Using an analogy, one player might love playing highly magical characters and be thrilled by the idea of having access to teleports and invisability spells and summons etc. You might argue that it'd be great for a game to accomodate that players CHOICE in play style. However, if everyone else in the game is expecting to play a highly realistic WWII style game, then accomodating that one players choice pretty much wrecks the game for everyone else playing, regardless of whether they choose to avail themselves of magic spells or not.
Again Dungeon Finder is perfectly acceptable for a certain type of game that it fits well. However, I have no interest in playing that sort of game at all at and won't. Putting one in the type of game I'm actualy interested in would start to wreck that game because it DOES start to change what the nature of the game is about and how it plays.
People do not want to socialize, dungeon finders or not. You cannot force people into playing the game your way.
Yes that's very much true BUT you can choose the games you play or don't play.
Furthermore, arguing that environment has no effect on behavior would negate pretty much all of anthropology, sociology and evolutionary biology.....so I don't think you'd be on very sound footing if you were trying to promote that idea.
Originally posted by GrumpyMel2 Yes that's very much true BUT you can choose the games you play or don't play.Furthermore, arguing that environment has no effect on behavior would negate pretty much all of anthropology, sociology and evolutionary biology.....so I don't think you'd be on very sound footing if you were trying to promote that idea.
First, no one was arguing anything like that, 2nd even if there was, you managed to rebut your own point.
The problem is not really so much the existence or non-existence of a dungeon finder tool, it's really that they just haven't been designed very well. Why not allow players to pick the type of run they want (speed run, social/casual, loot grind)? Why not make the finder context-centric, so that only the dungeons in the vicinity are listed? This gets people out of the lobby and out into the world. How about the ability to add notes and advertise your guild while you are at it, more like a bulletin board?
There's lots of things that could be done to improve finders without throwing them out altogether and going back to spamming chat. Hell, they could even be made "immersive."
And why the heck are people so damn binary about these sorts of things?
MMORPG hmmm Massively Multiplayer online role playing game , meet and play with multiple ppl the reason I play MMO's and the DF while a good idea in general is not very good for community relations. especially the cross server type. like everything in life they have their good and bad aspects. I recently had an experience with 2 tanks getting pissed at each other and one of them proceeded to lock us out of a boss fight not once but 6 times so yes bad and good. sooo my question is if you don't want to be social....why play on MMO?
I think it was a necessary addition that now needs a necessary update.
I think adding a casual, normal and hardcore version of each dungeon may be a step in the right direction.
Hopefully, normal would be difficult enough that speed runs were a near impossibility and hardcore they'd be a definite impossibility.
This, imo, would allow for the ease of access we crave, yet provide an avenue for team work and social interplay.
The consequence may be splitting the population into essentially 3 times the number of dungeons, and so therefore queue times would likely suffer.
I'm not quite sure how to solve that.
That is of course it is so fun that people begin re-joining the games and thus off setting the longer queue times - but, that may be a lot to ask of multiple games.
sooo my question is if you don't want to be social....why play on MMO?
Frankly, it's irrelevant question with simple answer - people enjoy it, even without what you call "socializing". It does not matter why.
In my opinion, the majority of players who don't care to social part of a MMO Game just play for Ego. That's why DF with instant teleport is so popular. Almost nobody play to explore secret ruins for fun, they do that to get itens who can improve their ego. Place just a piece of Lore in the final of an instance and watch 4/5 of players yell and cry because it was useless and all that "mimimi".
The last game I played where I saw ppl doing things exclusively for fun was RO. After 3~4 years, you still saw class 2 main characters, because they just wanted to have fun doing all the content, hunting without concern about loot or anything.
MMO today is all about Ego. A minority of players really care about immersion.
LFD is the only way a maturing game can survive, so its not going anywhere. One of the reasons I left EQ2 was the inability to find groups for my alts as the game matured. So much content that my alts missed!
But I agree that LFD needs a serious update, break it into speed runs, grinding, etc. so people that want to be social can join a LFD for "Social outcasts that have no IRL friends and have all day to play" mode.
But I agree that LFD needs a serious update, break it into speed runs, grinding, etc. so people that want to be social can join a LFD for "Social outcasts that have no IRL friends and have all day to play" mode.
So that we are equally extreme and insulting across the board:
Social outcasts that have no IRL friends and have all day to play and socialize mode
Social outcasts that have no IRL friends who can't stand to talk to anyone except for "gogogogo" in an online game mode
Social outcasts that have no IRL friends who only play games to power up and grind more lootz mode
To me personally, I would rather them not be there but overall I believe they are good to have for the majority of players who do not wish to put in the effort and time to make a dungeon run meaningful in ways other than to gain exp, loots, achievements, etc.
I like progressing through rpgs, mmo or not. So a dungeon is like a final boss, closing the chapter to a part of the game and I like to progress and when I am ready in my own progression to experience that content I will. I don't go out of my way to "LFG" all day to run dungeon after dungeon for loot.
I like forming a bond with players and guilds who will help each other out and would be glad to experience the game together.
Personally, to make a comparison here on dungeon finders. The random is a pain in the but, especially when it is cross realm. The structured random, aka trinity finder is terrible for the same reason. They are both restrictive, both to play styles and freedom. Also, having random people paired up some how gives players the reason to be jerks, and not care about their actions towards other players. Their actions have no long term effect on them in game. The randoms are selfish and meaningless. This is my opinion.
However, the dungeon finder, "LFG" listings like how Planetside 1, GW 1, and GW2 do it is great. You can form your own groups for whatever you wish, NOT just dungeons. You can enter descriptions on what you plan to accomplish. You can form groups in any which manor you please and not follow a pre determined group structure. You can talk to your new party mates before running the dungeon, get to know each other, what they expect, etc. This is a lot more meaningful to me and I find I gain a lot more out of this style of grouping.
There are the pros and cons, mainly I see them as a matter of convenience. Lots of people say they do not have the time anymore, which is very true for those who have jobs and families among other commitments. Neither is wrong, everyone has different play styles and each style of finder will cater to that.
Originally posted by Arskaaa "when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
As many have said, the majority is starting to work varying hours and starting up an adult life with a family of their own. In the past - players have had so much time to play. Now, especially me have a much harder time finding a group using chat channels within 10minutes otherwise I cannot run one in an hour and a half. Cross-server finders should not be there as it ruins community but what is wrong with dungeon finders pairing up with certain players?
Heck it should further be enhanced by not allowing you to join with blocked players on your list. It should pass up that player and find a group that is full of unblocked players by you!
Tldr: I love the dungeon finder, I don't want to be waiting 3 hrs ever again for a group like in Everquest 1. Playing the playstation, watching tv, reading novels, or doing homework while "playing" a game? Seriously, that is so archaic, however, what they can do is bring back the challenge modes and have settings. Allow people to choose casual, intermediate and hardcore extreme.
If you aren't good enough and you haven't earned the previous unlocking achievements, you can't enter extreme hardmode. You'd have to unlock it by doing all of the normal raids and dungeons first.
LFR is too easy, no fight should allow you to ignore combat mechanics, its all just a zerg rush, they need to allow normals in the raid finder, and open up the raid finder to all old zones like AQ, Naxxramas, ICC, Sunwell Plateau, Black Temple, Throne of Four Winds, Bastion of Twilight, Blackwing Descent, all raids should be on the raid finder in normal difficulty.
Heroic should open up when people have all the achievements from completing normal on their account, perhaps even if it was another character on their account that already did it, as they should still know the mechanics.
It simply won't work running 12-16 hr groups grinding like on Everquest 1 I agree. It isn't any fun boxing mmos so that you can go LFG while playing another MMO either. I mean, you go LFG on Game X, while playing WoW ? Just because WoW has a dungeon/raid finder and group X is a 3 hr wait spamming chat channels?
Comments
LFR/LFD would have been amazing tools if they had limited it to people from your server only. If you knew there was a good chance you would see these people again, and you knew there was the distinct possibility of gaining a reputation if you were an ass, then there is far more incentive to not only behave well but also to socialize.
For most people it's hard to get too excited about socializing with nameless faceless people you will most likely never see again. Just like there is very little consequence to being a jerk to nameless faceless people you will most likely never see again.
Player choice is great in the context of providing lots of different types of games for people to play. Player choice is not so great in the context of trying to accomodate too many wildly divergent and contradictory play styles within the same game. Simply put the mechanics of the game will effect game play for ALL the players playing it. Using an analogy, one player might love playing highly magical characters and be thrilled by the idea of having access to teleports and invisability spells and summons etc. You might argue that it'd be great for a game to accomodate that players CHOICE in play style. However, if everyone else in the game is expecting to play a highly realistic WWII style game, then accomodating that one players choice pretty much wrecks the game for everyone else playing, regardless of whether they choose to avail themselves of magic spells or not.
Again Dungeon Finder is perfectly acceptable for a certain type of game that it fits well. However, I have no interest in playing that sort of game at all at and won't. Putting one in the type of game I'm actualy interested in would start to wreck that game because it DOES start to change what the nature of the game is about and how it plays.
Yes that's very much true BUT you can choose the games you play or don't play.
Furthermore, arguing that environment has no effect on behavior would negate pretty much all of anthropology, sociology and evolutionary biology.....so I don't think you'd be on very sound footing if you were trying to promote that idea.
First, no one was arguing anything like that, 2nd even if there was, you managed to rebut your own point.
Also a winning strategy.
The best thing of all about forums is everyone gets to walk away feeling like they won the argument!
The problem is not really so much the existence or non-existence of a dungeon finder tool, it's really that they just haven't been designed very well. Why not allow players to pick the type of run they want (speed run, social/casual, loot grind)? Why not make the finder context-centric, so that only the dungeons in the vicinity are listed? This gets people out of the lobby and out into the world. How about the ability to add notes and advertise your guild while you are at it, more like a bulletin board?
There's lots of things that could be done to improve finders without throwing them out altogether and going back to spamming chat. Hell, they could even be made "immersive."
And why the heck are people so damn binary about these sorts of things?
Frankly, it's irrelevant question with simple answer - people enjoy it, even without what you call "socializing". It does not matter why.
I think it was a necessary addition that now needs a necessary update.
I think adding a casual, normal and hardcore version of each dungeon may be a step in the right direction.
Hopefully, normal would be difficult enough that speed runs were a near impossibility and hardcore they'd be a definite impossibility.
This, imo, would allow for the ease of access we crave, yet provide an avenue for team work and social interplay.
The consequence may be splitting the population into essentially 3 times the number of dungeons, and so therefore queue times would likely suffer.
I'm not quite sure how to solve that.
That is of course it is so fun that people begin re-joining the games and thus off setting the longer queue times - but, that may be a lot to ask of multiple games.
For me it's absolutely a bad thing.
MMORPGs are social games. Every problem should be solved with the social aspect in mind. A dungeon tool is not social at all, it's quite the opposite.
The social aspect is essential in MMORPGs, I hope nobody will deny this.
And to me, because the dungeon tool is the least social solution to a problem, makes it a bad solution.
In my opinion, the majority of players who don't care to social part of a MMO Game just play for Ego. That's why DF with instant teleport is so popular. Almost nobody play to explore secret ruins for fun, they do that to get itens who can improve their ego. Place just a piece of Lore in the final of an instance and watch 4/5 of players yell and cry because it was useless and all that "mimimi".
The last game I played where I saw ppl doing things exclusively for fun was RO. After 3~4 years, you still saw class 2 main characters, because they just wanted to have fun doing all the content, hunting without concern about loot or anything.
MMO today is all about Ego. A minority of players really care about immersion.
LFD is the only way a maturing game can survive, so its not going anywhere. One of the reasons I left EQ2 was the inability to find groups for my alts as the game matured. So much content that my alts missed!
But I agree that LFD needs a serious update, break it into speed runs, grinding, etc. so people that want to be social can join a LFD for "Social outcasts that have no IRL friends and have all day to play" mode.
Current Games: WOW, EVE Online
So that we are equally extreme and insulting across the board:
To me personally, I would rather them not be there but overall I believe they are good to have for the majority of players who do not wish to put in the effort and time to make a dungeon run meaningful in ways other than to gain exp, loots, achievements, etc.
I like progressing through rpgs, mmo or not. So a dungeon is like a final boss, closing the chapter to a part of the game and I like to progress and when I am ready in my own progression to experience that content I will. I don't go out of my way to "LFG" all day to run dungeon after dungeon for loot.
I like forming a bond with players and guilds who will help each other out and would be glad to experience the game together.
Personally, to make a comparison here on dungeon finders. The random is a pain in the but, especially when it is cross realm. The structured random, aka trinity finder is terrible for the same reason. They are both restrictive, both to play styles and freedom. Also, having random people paired up some how gives players the reason to be jerks, and not care about their actions towards other players. Their actions have no long term effect on them in game. The randoms are selfish and meaningless. This is my opinion.
However, the dungeon finder, "LFG" listings like how Planetside 1, GW 1, and GW2 do it is great. You can form your own groups for whatever you wish, NOT just dungeons. You can enter descriptions on what you plan to accomplish. You can form groups in any which manor you please and not follow a pre determined group structure. You can talk to your new party mates before running the dungeon, get to know each other, what they expect, etc. This is a lot more meaningful to me and I find I gain a lot more out of this style of grouping.
There are the pros and cons, mainly I see them as a matter of convenience. Lots of people say they do not have the time anymore, which is very true for those who have jobs and families among other commitments. Neither is wrong, everyone has different play styles and each style of finder will cater to that.
Originally posted by Arskaaa
"when players learned tacticks in dungeon/raids, its bread".
This.
As many have said, the majority is starting to work varying hours and starting up an adult life with a family of their own. In the past - players have had so much time to play. Now, especially me have a much harder time finding a group using chat channels within 10minutes otherwise I cannot run one in an hour and a half. Cross-server finders should not be there as it ruins community but what is wrong with dungeon finders pairing up with certain players?
Heck it should further be enhanced by not allowing you to join with blocked players on your list. It should pass up that player and find a group that is full of unblocked players by you!
Tldr: I love the dungeon finder, I don't want to be waiting 3 hrs ever again for a group like in Everquest 1. Playing the playstation, watching tv, reading novels, or doing homework while "playing" a game? Seriously, that is so archaic, however, what they can do is bring back the challenge modes and have settings. Allow people to choose casual, intermediate and hardcore extreme.
If you aren't good enough and you haven't earned the previous unlocking achievements, you can't enter extreme hardmode. You'd have to unlock it by doing all of the normal raids and dungeons first.
LFR is too easy, no fight should allow you to ignore combat mechanics, its all just a zerg rush, they need to allow normals in the raid finder, and open up the raid finder to all old zones like AQ, Naxxramas, ICC, Sunwell Plateau, Black Temple, Throne of Four Winds, Bastion of Twilight, Blackwing Descent, all raids should be on the raid finder in normal difficulty.
Heroic should open up when people have all the achievements from completing normal on their account, perhaps even if it was another character on their account that already did it, as they should still know the mechanics.
It simply won't work running 12-16 hr groups grinding like on Everquest 1 I agree. It isn't any fun boxing mmos so that you can go LFG while playing another MMO either. I mean, you go LFG on Game X, while playing WoW ? Just because WoW has a dungeon/raid finder and group X is a 3 hr wait spamming chat channels?