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Why does TESO have such a split reaction?

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  • PigglesworthPigglesworth Delaware, OHPosts: 257Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ThomasN7
    We don't need an Elder Scrolls online. What  people would prefer is a 4 player co-op Elder Scrolls game.  In my opinion this game will fail harder than SWTOR.

    Speak for yourself. Many of us actually want to play this game. If you hate the game so much, why even post on these forums? Go find a game you do like and enjoy the witty banter there.

    Either way, you will probably play it, no matter how much you whine. So, see you on release day.

    @PigglesworthTWR on Twitter

    Pigglesworth @ EQNForum.com, MMORPG.com, EQNextfans.com, ProjectNorrath.com, & EQNFanSite.com

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  • I think the game falls short of what I expect from an MMO. Such as an open, virtual world aspect. Which is really odd as the single player games did a fairly decent job at this. I can only conclude the designers don't know why people like MMOs. Or Elder Scrolls. Hint: It's not just about watching load screens and being in first person.
  • Flyte27Flyte27 Greenwich, CTPosts: 2,837Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Voqar

    "I was never a huge ES fan.  Bought all the games but could never get in to any of them for more than a few hours til Skyrim, which I've played for ~170 hours on one character and haven't even finished the main story.  So I guess I'm a recent convert.  I'm familiar with the glory of the series though.

     

    My issue is that ES is one of the most incredible PvE RPG franchises of all time, known for incredibly stories, depth, immersion, and freedom in wide open world game worlds where nothing holds your hand and you create your own destiny.

     

    When you take that, and turn it into an MMO lite that will never, ever, not in a million years have the same type of immersion, depth, or stories (simply not possible) and add in a ton of PvP, it makes one go...WTF?   Where does PvP fit in to a game that's been all about the highest quality PvE for it's entire existence?

     

    When I play Skyrim the ONLY thing that bums me out is that I can't play it co-op with a few friends.  Big difference between sharing highly immersive and incredibly detailed and deep gameplay with a few close friends vs playing in an MMORPG with 100 brain dead children with avatars like xXDrizzt99Xx or far worse all proving their mental inferiority by spewing in public chat.

     

    There is no immersion when you're looking at something cool or standing next to a boss you're pondering and 10 doods with cowboy hats and in their underwear come screaming into the picture and mow down the boss.  There is no immersion when that quest NPC is surrounded by 30 noobie clones.  There is no immersion when you're passing thru a dungeon area and all the chests have recently been opened and all the mobs are dead because there's 10 other players dashing thru it as quickly as possible.

     

    So IMO, everything that makes ES what it is cannot happen in an MMORPG - and on top of that, they've mutilated their own lore to make up 3 fake PvP teams to accommodate PvP, when PvP has never been a part of or had anything to do with the game to begin with.

     

    There is no incredible sense of freedom and forging your own path when everything is dumbed down and simplified to a generic MMORPG for dummies level typical of every recent steaming pile of generic MMORPG crap.

     

    So, IMO, the division comes from the fact that how can anybody who's loved the ES series forever find much to like about a weak MMO representation of a beloved franchise?  One that shifts to a nearly a PvP focus instead of the highest quality personal PvE?  Where complete freedom is replaced by the typical MMORPG rails and hold my hand mommy gameplay.

     

    ES games feature wide open worlds where you're dumped into them with no idea what's going on or what to do and you strike your own path and forge your own destiny.

     

    MMORPGs have intros designed for braindead infants, zone boundries, and kill 10 rats - here's your epic.  Here's your zone, here's your quest hub, do not pass go until you're the appropriate level.

    As an MMORPG lover I don't like the idea of ESO either.  IMO if I ditch the ES/Skyrim fan of myself and just look at this objectively as a new MMORPG, it's just another cookie cutter MMORPG, trying to be everything to everyone (mandatory PvP slapped on to an IP that has nothing to do with PvP, weak/generic questing, generic MMORPG style skills in a game that has never played that way, etc), and worse, it's yet another MMORPG mangling of a beloved IP (ie, another SWTOR kind of thing (except I actually think SWTOR is a decent game) - when you make games based on popular stuff, you need to utterly kill it, or you are just making garbage, and IMO, they not utterly killing it, except in the bad killing kind of way).

     

    I'm actually not sure who could like this game.  There are always the hopeful and/ore the clueless who fanboi latch on to things that are in development, I guess.  Maybe there's some who could never get into the ES games because they were so wide open and lacking in guiding....and the idea of ES on rails appeals.  Dunno.

     

    IMO, the MMORPG landscape is very, very bleak right now.  Wildstar looks amazing but has CREDD (a system of allowing cheating losers to buy in game currency for cash - facilitated cheating ruins an otherwise great looking game).  EQN - who knows what it'll be - the only thing I know for sure is that SOE can't be trusted and repeatedly proves it (landmark goes from being free to everyone and available end of the year to being a paid alpha/beta in February and everything about EQN itself is just talk and dreams that at this point would be shocking if they end up happening).  The other remotely big ones in development are probably only ever discussed on this site where even the most obscure MMORPGs nobody plays get some buzz.

     

    Seriously, the more I see/read about Wildstar the more I'm like, this game could really rock.  Then I remember CREDD and I want to vomit.  I hate cheaters.  I hate cheating.  I dislike that so many people are selfish and just don't care and have no spine or principles.  So I don't see how I can ever enjoy Wildstar knowing that the hosting company is providing a way for losers to cheat at their game.

     

    And this game is just dookie waiting to happen.  I love MMORPGs.  I love Skyrim.  I hate the idea of making an MMORPG out of elder scrolls.  One of the worst ideas ever.  Adding co op to ES VI would've been a phenominal idea.  Making a watered down MMORPG featuring watered down ES and featuring a heavy does of PvP that has nothing to do with ES....garbage.

     

    I mean, how many people play Skyrim, one of the best RPGs ever created, with insane amounts of content and freedom, with some of the best PvE content ever created, and think, gee, you know, this game is OK, but what would REALLY make it good is if it was dumbed down into oblivion and was a multiplayer PvP game.  It would be so much better if a decade+ of lore was mutilated to take all these races and make them into 3 DAoC style RvR teams and we just ditched the quality PvE and slugged it out in the umpteenth attempt to make MMORPG PvP that does anything other than suck.

     

    The other thing is, ESO is going to be premium priced and have a sub.  I'm not against subs and I despise F2P for MMORPGs.  But a sub needs to be justified - so does premium pricing.  What about ESO is going to be worth either?  A weak version of ES PvE.  Generic MMORPG PvP.  Weak overall MMORPG features.  How does the sum of that justify a premium box price and a premium sub?

     

    The biggest thing for me is sadness because I love MMORPGs, they take forever to develop, so few true gems end up getting created, and none of the big 3 currently in development look like they're going to be worthy for various reasons.  ESO is an abomination, bad idea, and weak game.  Wildstar is a premium game with the worst of F2P cheating built in.  SOE can't be trusted at all and probably won't produce even a fraction of the stuff they yap about (and they're already money grubbing their supposed F2P games)."

     I agree and it's pretty sad.  I believe most of the companies that make MMORPGs are unwilling to make a sandbox game for various reasons.  Perhaps a big one is it doesn't appeal to those with no time/patience to figure out something to do on their own.  None the less most MMOs these days are not doing great anyway.  Thats why they all go free to play.  They are the same game with a new skin (themepark).  Perhaps the devs today should admit that the ones who created the first few MMOs were actually doing something right (Ultima Online, Everquest, DAOC, etc).  MMOs are such garbage now with Micro Transactions (impulse buyers) and this is even infecting single player games.  The gaming industry is really starting to go downhill in general.  They only think about how much money they can make and not about making a fun world for people to be creative and play in themselves IMO.  The ESO is obviously no different then the other MMOs out right now even though it uses a sub.

     

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by fantasyfreak112

    TESO will fail for the same reason Neverwinter did.....it's no more elder scrolls then Neverwinter is D&D. These devs continue to make the same stupid mistakes year after year, yet refusing to learn from them.

     

    Don't abandon your roots or you'll be strangled by them.

    I think this is an incorrect assumption. I dont think the Devs that are making these games continue to make the same dumb mistake. WE DO.

    The Devs just keep making these linear, shallow, derivative games and WE keep making the stupid mistake of buying them. This leads to other Devs making a "new" game in the same fashion and again WE keep buying it. WE refuse to learn

    And around we go again.

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • cpupowercpupower West Palm Beach, FLPosts: 28Member
    What does NWO is no more to D&D then ESO is no more Elder scrolls have to do with the price of rice in China. ESO is ESO and NWO is NWO nothing more nothing less. GEZZZUS.... Peeps need to stop psycho analyzing everthing and just enjoy the freaking game. When a game developer sets out to design a game they either have to create an I.P. or buy one an I.P. thats it. After that no Publisher is going fork over big dough for a cut and paste game. All I can say about both games,and yes Ive played both games, is the both rock and represent the I.P. very well. I would also like say that ESO is so freaking GREAT!!! you have no idea, and thats coming from someone that thinks WoW is the best thing since slice bread.So people do yourself a favor and relax.
  • cyclonite51cyclonite51 Sacramento, CAPosts: 33Member Common
    It is sad to see companies continue to rape big name IPs to create these generic MMOs to cash in. Star Wars, Star Trek, Neverwinter, and now Elder Scrolls. They will keep doing it too because people will keep buying it.
  • BadSpockBadSpock Somewhere, MIPosts: 7,974Member

    My decision to purchase ESO is going to depend a lot on whether or not the different platforms share the same server(s).

    And thankfully I'll have 2 months of PC feedback and reviews to look at before (and if) I pick it up for my XB1.

  • discord235discord235 Woodland, CAPosts: 143Member Uncommon

    I'm sure the OP's question has been answered somewhere in the depths of these pages, but after reading through several of them and the tangents that they created, I will offer my 2 cents. First off, let me define the word "fail," because I am going to use it to describe ESO. I mean "fail" in the sense that the game will let down the majority of fans. The game will still turn a profit, but this is not the definition of fail. OK then...

    There is such a split reaction to ESO because they are trying to merge 2 different groups of people - MMO players and Elder Scrolls (Single-player RPG) fans. I see what they are trying to do - why not mix 2 great things? It worked for Reese's Peanut Butter Cups...but seriously, I have been saying this game will be a fail because of this. The Elder Scrolls community is raging because of all the missing "immersion" and other great things about Skyrim and Co., and the MMO community is calling this another "WoW clone," which has become the term to describe any themepark/quest hub based game. The same thing happened with SWTOR - they took one of the greatest single-player games of all time (KOTOR) and turned it into an MMO that failed. And any SWTOR fan that wants to debate this, again please refer to my definition of fail. 

    So the question of, "Why?" comes up. Why do this at all? Why merge these 2 communities? Very simple, my friends - MONEY! No one can argue the success of the Elder Scrolls franchise, but the problem is (for the development company, anyway), once you purchase Skyrim, that's it. The company has gotten all the money they are going to get from you. MMO's are so popular nowadays because you CONTINUOUSLY HAVE TO SPEND MONEY TO PLAY THEM. Even if it's a FTP game, you are still (theoretically) spending some money on in-game currency. Obviously it's working or developers wouldn't be offering FTP games. But there is of course the argument to this, which is that you don't HAVE to spend money monthly in a FTP/BTP game to fully enjoy it...well sir, tell me of one AAA MMO that fits this description. GW2 is the closest game I can think of, but I still end up buying gems for vanity pets, transmutation crystals, bank/inventory tabs, etc. Neverwinter is a great example of how crappy and limiting a FTP game can be. And the FTP limits on SWTOR are a joke. 

    So, in short,  the "split reaction" being created by ESO will be it's downfall. Personally, I enjoyed playing the game. It took some getting used to, as I play GW2 a lot now and there are several differences, but after a few hours I really got in to the game. The graphics were beautiful. I didn't use the first person view since I am an "MMOer" and prefer the third-person camera. There are some "neat" things about the game, but all-in-all, yeah it's a standard MMO. And to be honest, if Wildstar weren't coming out around the same time I would buy and play this game. Hell, if it comes out 30 days or more BEFORE Wildstar I'll still buy it and play it until Wildstar comes out. It's just that I've played both games and Wildstar is a lot more fun (IMHO). 

    image

  • marcuslmmarcuslm Louisville, KYPosts: 253Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by NorseGod
    Originally posted by muffins89
    Originally posted by GPrestige

    One of the biggest complaints I've heard is that combat doesn't feel satisfying. Apparently, there aren't animations indicating when a weapon strikes an enemy, or deflects a blow, etc. Your character swings through things because there's no collision hit boxes and feels "floaty".

     

    Does anyone have any knowledge on this?

    the game is still in beta and 6 months or so away from launch.  if what you described is the case,  then there is still time to improve it.

    And there it is.

    The "it's still in beta" excuse. That's all I needed to know about this game, thanks.

    I've tried the ESO beta and for what little time I had, I liked it.

    But I agree, the old beta excuse does not cut it with me anymore. Why? I have been in many many MMORPG betas and I have yet to see a single game change much at all from beta to release, other than just the amount of content available. There have been several games in which I hoped graphics, animation, sound, combat, etc would improve from beta to release and it never has happened. I guess they just don't have the time to do any reworking in those areas before release. In my experience, what you see in beta is pretty much what you get on release day. Typically the only "feature" added is a login queue.

  • 6 months to release is along time, but I agree it's worrying if something as important as combat feels far from being ready at this point. But I guess that's just speculation right now, so not that useful to anyone.
  • Crazy_StickCrazy_Stick Privacy Preferred, NCPosts: 1,059Member
    Originally posted by Axxar
    6 months to release is along time, but I agree it's worrying if something as important as combat feels far from being ready at this point. But I guess that's just speculation right now, so not that useful to anyone.

    Actually based on today's release date announcement, TESO is only four months away ( a little less than that actually) from launch on April 4th.  I won't speak details but yes it is a little worrisome from outside the box.

  • CthulhuPuffsCthulhuPuffs Henderson, NVPosts: 363Member Common
    Originally posted by Crazy_Stick
    Originally posted by Axxar
    6 months to release is along time, but I agree it's worrying if something as important as combat feels far from being ready at this point. But I guess that's just speculation right now, so not that useful to anyone.

    Actually based on today's release date announcement, TESO is only four months away ( a little less than that actually) from launch on April 4th.  I won't speak details but yes it is a little worrisome from outside the box.

    ESO is 3 months and 3 weeks (24days approx) away from its Official Release date.

     

    It would be about this time in Development (of just about every other MMO in history) to start the First Rounds of Open Betas.  Drop the NDA. Release Massive amounts of Official Videos and Information, etc.......

    Well..??.. We're waiting?....

    Bringer of Eternal Darkness and Despair, but also a Nutritious way to start your Morning.

    Games Played: Too Many

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member

    With a network team largely from EvE and a good chunk of talent from DAoC, the chance for a fairly smooth launch is good. DAoC in particular launched in a strikingly solid form, and it was released by a small, rather green team that had never attempted anything so big. ZOS is made from top-tier, experienced talent that has released landmark MMOs. The folks from 38 Studios are likely hungry to actually see a release, I am sure, but they are in reliable hands now, and the ex-Blizzard members are... well they are from freaking Blizzard.

    Actually, on paper this team really rocks. I know it's only a few months away, but considering the resources, abundance of experienced talent, and more efficient (modern) developmental tools that ZOS has, if this launch is really rocky I will be a little surprised. Just a little, though. MMOs launches rate alongside walking into Mordor wreathed in faerie fire on a difficulty scale.

    If it flops overall, I will be incredibly stunned. There is almost no way that this won't be at least a moderate success, and it will most likely do far better than many think. This is pure speculation, of course.

     

     

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Originally posted by evilized
    Originally posted by PerfArt

    If it flops overall, I will be incredibly stunned. There is almost no way that this won't be at least a moderate success, and it will most likely do far better than many think. This is pure speculation, of course.

    if they have any success it will come from the consoles. i doubt the PC crowd will stick around too long. been there, done that kinda deal unfortunately :

    End game keeps people around, especially in a game with an RvR model like TESO's. It remains to be seen whether or not anyone has "been there, done that" in regard to such, as no one has experienced the end game.

    That it might see a greater level of relative success on consoles is probably a safe bet, I will agree, however.

  • LeGrosGamerLeGrosGamer Canada, QCPosts: 210Member
    Originally posted by GPrestige

    I've only now started looking into the game, and have noticed something interesting on different forums and even Youtube videos. It seems that there is quite a divide between those who like how the game looks and those who don't. I'm wondering if anyone has a reason why?

    Is it a division between MMO players and hardcore TES fans? Does the game have some feature people don't like that I'm not aware of? So far, it looks quite interesting. I can understand the issue some people have with graphics, since TES tends to have realistic graphics for the time it's released - but for an MMO, it's generally understood graphics need to be scaled back due to the gargantuan size of the world and amount of people playing.

     

    Anyone have any idea?

    You need to stop worrying about forums and what people say.  Let's view on a different angle ; take marvel comics and movies or Harry Potter books Vs the movies.    Now the old timers and those who love reading, will say that the Harry Potter movies were meh while the books were amazing.  The same goes with most Marvel comics Vs Marvel movies.    Time and time again it has been proven that not because something is written and is popular will do great on the big screen or in the case of Elder Scrolls , do great online.  Don't get me wrong, Skyrim is amazing but I'll judge TESO on release. Because in the end no matter how people grade the game, it is I and I alone that will be buying the game for myself and playing it.   

     

      Having been Bethesda, I would of started by doing Skyrim multiplayer where 3-4 people can join and see how it goes, instead of creating a whole new game from scratch, slapping the Elder Scrolls logo on it and watch the mix reactions. But hey, it doesn't really matter what I think anyways.

  • killahhkillahh calgary, ABPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by PerfArt
    Originally posted by evilized
    Originally posted by PerfArt

    If it flops overall, I will be incredibly stunned. There is almost no way that this won't be at least a moderate success, and it will most likely do far better than many think. This is pure speculation, of course.

    if they have any success it will come from the consoles. i doubt the PC crowd will stick around too long. been there, done that kinda deal unfortunately :

    End game keeps people around, especially in a game with an RvR model like TESO's. It remains to be seen whether or not anyone has "been there, done that" in regard to such, as no one has experienced the end game.

    That it might see a greater level of relative success on consoles is probably a safe bet, I will agree, however.

    the console market for skyrim  was 85-90% bigger than the PC draw, therefore i also believe the console market will skyrocket this game.

    http://www.statisticbrain.com/skyrim-the-elder-scrolls-v-statistics/

    Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  • BlackhoundBlackhound Posts: 48Member Uncommon

    I might as well make mention, hoping nobody else has yet, that they didn't even get the setting right.

    Coldharbour looks nothing like what they have in the MMO. It would immediately get the game an M rating and would make any Warhammer/WH40K fan blush. It's the kind of stuff Slaanesh is timid about.

    In the very least they could have got the terrain and skyboxes right, couldn't they have?

    From the opening statement that "something felt off" while loading into the game I already was offended at the way the setting was being mistreated.

  • killahhkillahh calgary, ABPosts: 437Member
    Originally posted by Blackhound

    I might as well make mention, hoping nobody else has yet, that they didn't even get the setting right.

    Coldharbour looks nothing like what they have in the MMO. It would immediately get the game an M rating and would make any Warhammer/WH40K fan blush. It's the kind of stuff Slaanesh is timid about.

    In the very least they could have got the terrain and skyboxes right, couldn't they have?

    From the opening statement that "something felt off" while loading into the game I already was offended at the way the setting was being mistreated.

    pics..... show me.  :)

     

    Gonada Dahung,over 20 years of mmorpg's and counting....Please Lord, let someone make a game that had all the awesomeness of UO, EQ and EVE...

  • MaxisDBMaxisDB Huntington, WVPosts: 75Member Uncommon

    I know this is just from some wiki, but it seems that Coldharbour has not been shown in any other games.. 

    http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Coldharbour

  • SovrathSovrath Boston Area, MAPosts: 18,460Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by -aLpHa-

    And Bethesda should start hiring people who actually have a clue about making decent animations.

    That very well might be true but this is Zenimax.

  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Blackhound

    I might as well make mention, hoping nobody else has yet, that they didn't even get the setting right.

    Coldharbour looks nothing like what they have in the MMO. It would immediately get the game an M rating and would make any Warhammer/WH40K fan blush. It's the kind of stuff Slaanesh is timid about.

    In the very least they could have got the terrain and skyboxes right, couldn't they have?

    From the opening statement that "something felt off" while loading into the game I already was offended at the way the setting was being mistreated.

    So... you've actually seen Coldharbour before? Where?

  • DhaenonDhaenon Corvallis, ORPosts: 66Member
    I'm sure others have touched on it, I'm too lazy to check, the fundamental problem this game will have is that it isn't Skyrim Online. People played Skyrim, loved it or other TES games. Now we have a MMO that is just a MMO with TES skins. That is all. Could be good, but it isn't TES. 

    image
  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    I think Blackhound is referring to the way it's described in ES lore vs. ZOS's representation of it in ESO (assuming it was part of the beta and he/she has seen it.)
  • IselinIselin Vancouver, BCPosts: 5,614Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Dhaenon
    I'm sure others have touched on it, I'm too lazy to check, the fundamental problem this game will have is that it isn't Skyrim Online. People played Skyrim, loved it or other TES games. Now we have a MMO that is just a MMO with TES skins. That is all. Could be good, but it isn't TES. 

    Which TES isn't it? Arena with its classes and spellmaker? or is "it isn't TES" just code for "I love Skyrim and I wanted a co-op version of that"... Seems like there're a lot of Johny-come-lately's who jumped into the series with Skyrim saying it isn't TES when every single TES game has made significant and fundamental changes from the previous installment... just like this one is doing.

     

    If you tried  it and didn't like it, that's one thing...but knocking it in the abstract for its TESlesness is just forum posturing.

  • SpeelySpeely Seattle, WAPosts: 861Member
    Originally posted by Dhaenon
    I'm sure others have touched on it, I'm too lazy to check, the fundamental problem this game will have is that it isn't Skyrim Online. People played Skyrim, loved it or other TES games. Now we have a MMO that is just a MMO with TES skins. That is all. Could be good, but it isn't TES. 

    It is TES. The creators of an IP decide what it is canon and what is not. Additionally, every Elder Scrolls game is different than the ones previous, mechanically. A fan of Morrowind could easily say that Skyrim "isn't Elder Scrolls" (some have) if judging it by the former's mechanics, but they would be wrong.

    Edit- beaten like a mudcrab by Iselin ;)

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