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Originally posted by crasset15 Originally posted by Kicksave321 Originally posted by crasset15 They are essentially watering it down and taking as many shortcuts as possible in the gameplay department, because all their resources are being used on making the themepark rides attractive. If you ignore the themepark rides, the world is just an empty shell with nothing to do in it. I can already predict the lack of content complaints 2 months after release, because there isn't much in this game besides the themepark rides. If there was something, they would have promoed it. So expect to have a choice between forum whining, running the same dungeons over and over, and pvping in cyrodiil, because that's all they are launching with, plus the themepark content to level 50.
My opinion is very educated actually, I've been following every bit of news about this game. Also, it's called common sense. You don't need facts and proof to predict the overall direction and focus of this game and its developers. If you do, I feel sorry for you.
You're entitled to your opinion, but your statements are incorrect.
Given the game isn't even out, I guess there are three possible reason:
(1) Skyrim set the bar very high. It was/is a VERY popular and successfull game, I'd even say one of the most influental games of many years. Just see how many people make fanstuff, videos, music, painting and whatnot about it. So most people feel compared to the very high standard of Skyrim a "normal" MMO can just be a setback.
(2) After years and years playing the same old MMO types, so far Elder Scrolls plays too safe, or so it seems. There is little really new or changed, but the n-th manifestation of the EQ/WoW formula.
(3) After so many flops or half-flops MMO gamers are understandably skeptical now.
People don't ask questions to get answers - they ask questions to show how smart they are. - Dogbert
Bottom line is its a watered down version of both.
Originally posted by Kicksave321 Originally posted by Sovrath Originally posted by TibernicuspaAnd I think most people who claim to dislike PvP just haven't played a good PvP game (as there have been precious few).
I think most people who don't like pvp don't like it because of some of the people involved, "regardless' of whether it's a good pvp game or not. Which is entirely subjective.
Exactly is all subjective.
I think most people that I know that don't like pvp is because they like pve better. To make a broad statement and act like its fact is rediculous. Just because someone claims they don't like pvp has nothing to do with them not playing a particular pvp game that you think (again not fact that what you think is a good pvp game others will) is good.
I love PVP but don't like the DAOC RVR system, never have really. It is not a real big sell in the OWpvp crowd I think, thats a problem lots of us had with DOAC when it was new. Every group of old school gamers have formed up into essentially teams of niche groups. When they see something resembling their old outdated game with 64 bit graphics they jump on anyone not thinking its the best game ever made.
Plenty of people who love PVP will hate this game because it looks too much like an acquired taste. Which looks like it may be true as well for the PVE in the game.
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Originally posted by Sovrath Is it a division between MMO players and hardcore TES fans? yes And those on the mmo side are concerned that it will be just another WoW clone.
Once anyone that has not played, does, they will not be able to use the WoW clone card as it is nothing like WoW. I find it feels and looks like TES. Just being honest not sure why so many people are lieing.
Originally posted by Betaguy Originally posted by Sovrath Is it a division between MMO players and hardcore TES fans? yes And those on the mmo side are concerned that it will be just another WoW clone.
Personally I find that WoW feels better. The combat system isn't very enjoyable in either. It does feel like a themepark to me though. Elder scrolls generally lets you do whatever you want to do like Ultima Online did. This game is more of a follow the quests and PvP like most MMOs these days. There is no sandbox to it. Sandbox is what the Elder Scrolls games have been about for the most part. Not as much the lore, the races, etc. The combat feels pretty different and the skill system is not really a skill system again like (Ulitma Online was). It's more of a class system with the ability to choose whatever weapon you want to use.
Originally posted by Flyte27
What exactly can you do in TES games outside of questing that you can't do in most theme-park MMORPGs to date? To me the freedom in TES games is far too overblown on this forum. The only real difference is in how questing is presented, in TES you can do any quest line at any time. IN an MMORPG, your options are limited due to the fact the game world doesn't scale along with an individual player.
Once you've done the quests in a TES entry and have completed the factions, there really isn't much left to the game, you can roleplay, but that's not exactly an option missing in an MMO. To compare it to the options in UO is just wrong IMO, UO focused on activities like building and community, things lacking in a TES game.
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Originally posted by Distopia Originally posted by Flyte27
The problem is following quests around isn't a fun experience. Especially if you have played WoW or it's many clones lots of times. Having random quests pop up doesn't remove the problem. I'll admit Skyrim wasn't that much different in terms of following quests, but you didn't have to follow quests. You could just run around and do whatever you wanted to for the most part. You could just go around stealing things from people. You could spend the whole time just crafting. There was the ability to go underwater (though it didn't add up to what I would have liked in sea exploration anyway I'll admit). I guess what I was hoping for was something more of a Sandbox. Something where you are dropped in a world and do what you want to do. Something where you have to actually use your brain/imagination a little bit. I find that sandbox games build more community and people tend to stick around. Theme park games/controlled PVP with boring generic balanced skills get boring and it's anyone's guess why people stick around at all if they have played such games before. They are very limited in what you can do outside of questing/PvP all the same path as everyone else.
After playing the game at the gamescom booth i was really shocked how bad the combat felt, i knew from several video presentations that the animations looked really sluggish but live playing it left a bad taste in my mouth.
I can live with sub par graphics but fucking up a key gameplay component like combat i cannot forgive.
And Bethesda should start hiring people who actually have a clue about making decent animations.
I haven't checked out TESO recently....so my information admitedly might be a bit dated. However, my impression when I did check it out was that it didn't represent the spirit of the Elder Scrolls games very well. It seemed, to me, that what they really wanted was the name recognition that the IP would bring.....not the gameplay value that the IP represented and could easly have substituted any other big name IP and with a few tweaks ended up with pretty much the same game as TESO. For most hardcore fans of the IP, that's really a killler.
Now there is a group of MMO players that are really interested in the type of game that TESO was being built to be.....and really wanted to play it regardless of what IP was stuck on top of it....they were the ones strongly in favor of it.
That's my (admitedly dated) impression of the split.
Personaly, I'm not really interested in an MMO version of Elder Scrolls. I'd love another single player installement in the series and I'd really love an Elder Scrolls multi-player, co-op game....where you could host your own private servers to play with something like 4-64 other players....something akin to the old NeverWinter Nights 2 style game. I'm not really interested in seeing the sort of changes that end up taking place when you transition Elder Scrolls to an MMO.
Personaly, I think MMO's are better off staying away from most well established IP's as often times it's very difficult to do the IP's justice when switching mediums.
For me personally, my reaction comes from the fact that I was wanting an Elder Scrolls MMO, not a remake of DAOC with the ES IP thrown over it for sales recognition.
Race=Faction, 3 separate Faction locked PvE zones, Central/Isolated 3 Faction PvP Area.
Thats DAOC. Not Elder Scrolls
I didnt like DAOC. WAR sucked. I never liked how Mythic did things and I think the Devs that came from that company rank right up there with Cryptic Studios.
ZOS is just a Mythic v1.5
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Originally posted by Flyte27 The problem is following quests around isn't a fun experience. Especially if you have played WoW or it's many clones lots of times. Having random quests pop up doesn't remove the problem. I'll admit Skyrim wasn't that much different in terms of following quests, but you didn't have to follow quests. You could just run around and do whatever you wanted to for the most part. You could just go around stealing things from people. You could spend the whole time just crafting. There was the ability to go underwater (though it didn't add up to what I would have liked in sea exploration anyway I'll admit). I guess what I was hoping for was something more of a Sandbox. Something where you are dropped in a world and do what you want to do. Something where you have to actually use your brain/imagination a little bit. I find that sandbox games build more community and people tend to stick around. Theme park games/controlled PVP with boring generic balanced skills get boring and it's anyone's guess why people stick around at all if they have played such games before. They are very limited in what you can do outside of questing/PvP all the same path as everyone else.
They say the thieves guild will make it's way into the game as well as the Dark Brotherhood. On the stealing front that may bring something to the table in that regard. On that topic you're correct you can't do that here or most other MMOs.
As for crafting I'd argue that aspect has a deeper purpose in an MMO, which may actually heighten that experience for those who want it.
IF you're not into their idea of PVP I can understand not having a good impression of their design. This definitely isn't the UO fans or SWG fans next home that's for sure.
Originally posted by makasouleater69 Not to mention that vanguard saga of heros, has better graphics then ESO, and is more true to being realistic and skyrim style then ESO.
um, I"m a huge fan of Vanguard AND still pay a sub and I can say "no it doesn't".
Originally posted by Distopia They say the thieves guild will make it's way into the game as well as the Dark Brotherhood. This definitely isn't the UO fans or SWG fans next home that's for sure.
Thats another issue I have. They SAY it will be in at a later time. When? Weeks, Months, Years? We all know how "After Release" goes in the MMO world.
2 of the most important ES guilds and they cant get them out on release? MAYBE sometime later?
Unless its like Housing and it ends up being TOO HARD.
But it SHOULD have been. Ultima, Star Wars, Elder Scrolls.
Those 3 IPs just scream Open World, Dynamic, Non-Linear.
Originally posted by CthulhuPuffs Originally posted by Distopia They say the thieves guild will make it's way into the game as well as the Dark Brotherhood. This definitely isn't the UO fans or SWG fans next home that's for sure.
Well the key really is staying on track, which most MMO's haven't post release in the last few years. What that depends on is their game succeeding, if it turns out that they need to go f2p because Subs aren't at the level they need, then I doubt we'll ever see these things, unless of course they've already built them (while they had the voice talent on hand).
I think it's because people these days are just miserable and negative. They don't know how to let others enjoy something that they either don't understand or enjoy themselves. Their lives are full of hate and unhappiness and the best place to express that is online where their real identity is hiding behind on avatar. It's the cool thing for them to do at the moment with the others that have their same mentality.
P.s I'm not referring to everyone who doesn't like eso but it's easy to point out the ones that fit the above description
I was never a huge ES fan. Bought all the games but could never get in to any of them for more than a few hours til Skyrim, which I've played for ~170 hours on one character and haven't even finished the main story. So I guess I'm a recent convert. I'm familiar with the glory of the series though.
My issue is that ES is one of the most incredible PvE RPG franchises of all time, known for incredibly stories, depth, immersion, and freedom in wide open world game worlds where nothing holds your hand and you create your own destiny.
When you take that, and turn it into an MMO lite that will never, ever, not in a million years have the same type of immersion, depth, or stories (simply not possible) and add in a ton of PvP, it makes one go...WTF? Where does PvP fit in to a game that's been all about the highest quality PvE for it's entire existence?
When I play Skyrim the ONLY thing that bums me out is that I can't play it co-op with a few friends. Big difference between sharing highly immersive and incredibly detailed and deep gameplay with a few close friends vs playing in an MMORPG with 100 brain dead children with avatars like xXDrizzt99Xx or far worse all proving their mental inferiority by spewing in public chat.
There is no immersion when you're looking at something cool or standing next to a boss you're pondering and 10 doods with cowboy hats and in their underwear come screaming into the picture and mow down the boss. There is no immersion when that quest NPC is surrounded by 30 noobie clones. There is no immersion when you're passing thru a dungeon area and all the chests have recently been opened and all the mobs are dead because there's 10 other players dashing thru it as quickly as possible.
So IMO, everything that makes ES what it is cannot happen in an MMORPG - and on top of that, they've mutilated their own lore to make up 3 fake PvP teams to accommodate PvP, when PvP has never been a part of or had anything to do with the game to begin with.
There is no incredible sense of freedom and forging your own path when everything is dumbed down and simplified to a generic MMORPG for dummies level typical of every recent steaming pile of generic MMORPG crap.
So, IMO, the division comes from the fact that how can anybody who's loved the ES series forever find much to like about a weak MMO representation of a beloved franchise? One that shifts to a nearly a PvP focus instead of the highest quality personal PvE? Where complete freedom is replaced by the typical MMORPG rails and hold my hand mommy gameplay.
ES games feature wide open worlds where you're dumped into them with no idea what's going on or what to do and you strike your own path and forge your own destiny.
MMORPGs have intros designed for braindead infants, zone boundries, and kill 10 rats - here's your epic. Here's your zone, here's your quest hub, do not pass go until you're the appropriate level.
As an MMORPG lover I don't like the idea of ESO either. IMO if I ditch the ES/Skyrim fan of myself and just look at this objectively as a new MMORPG, it's just another cookie cutter MMORPG, trying to be everything to everyone (mandatory PvP slapped on to an IP that has nothing to do with PvP, weak/generic questing, generic MMORPG style skills in a game that has never played that way, etc), and worse, it's yet another MMORPG mangling of a beloved IP (ie, another SWTOR kind of thing (except I actually think SWTOR is a decent game) - when you make games based on popular stuff, you need to utterly kill it, or you are just making garbage, and IMO, they not utterly killing it, except in the bad killing kind of way).
I'm actually not sure who could like this game. There are always the hopeful and/ore the clueless who fanboi latch on to things that are in development, I guess. Maybe there's some who could never get into the ES games because they were so wide open and lacking in guiding....and the idea of ES on rails appeals. Dunno.
IMO, the MMORPG landscape is very, very bleak right now. Wildstar looks amazing but has CREDD (a system of allowing cheating losers to buy in game currency for cash - facilitated cheating ruins an otherwise great looking game). EQN - who knows what it'll be - the only thing I know for sure is that SOE can't be trusted and repeatedly proves it (landmark goes from being free to everyone and available end of the year to being a paid alpha/beta in February and everything about EQN itself is just talk and dreams that at this point would be shocking if they end up happening). The other remotely big ones in development are probably only ever discussed on this site where even the most obscure MMORPGs nobody plays get some buzz.
Seriously, the more I see/read about Wildstar the more I'm like, this game could really rock. Then I remember CREDD and I want to vomit. I hate cheaters. I hate cheating. I dislike that so many people are selfish and just don't care and have no spine or principles. So I don't see how I can ever enjoy Wildstar knowing that the hosting company is providing a way for losers to cheat at their game.
And this game is just dookie waiting to happen. I love MMORPGs. I love Skyrim. I hate the idea of making an MMORPG out of elder scrolls. One of the worst ideas ever. Adding co op to ES VI would've been a phenominal idea. Making a watered down MMORPG featuring watered down ES and featuring a heavy does of PvP that has nothing to do with ES....garbage.
I mean, how many people play Skyrim, one of the best RPGs ever created, with insane amounts of content and freedom, with some of the best PvE content ever created, and think, gee, you know, this game is OK, but what would REALLY make it good is if it was dumbed down into oblivion and was a multiplayer PvP game. It would be so much better if a decade+ of lore was mutilated to take all these races and make them into 3 DAoC style RvR teams and we just ditched the quality PvE and slugged it out in the umpteenth attempt to make MMORPG PvP that does anything other than suck.
The other thing is, ESO is going to be premium priced and have a sub. I'm not against subs and I despise F2P for MMORPGs. But a sub needs to be justified - so does premium pricing. What about ESO is going to be worth either? A weak version of ES PvE. Generic MMORPG PvP. Weak overall MMORPG features. How does the sum of that justify a premium box price and a premium sub?
The biggest thing for me is sadness because I love MMORPGs, they take forever to develop, so few true gems end up getting created, and none of the big 3 currently in development look like they're going to be worthy for various reasons. ESO is an abomination, bad idea, and weak game. Wildstar is a premium game with the worst of F2P cheating built in. SOE can't be trusted at all and probably won't produce even a fraction of the stuff they yap about (and they're already money grubbing their supposed F2P games).
Premium MMORPGs do not feature built-in cheating via cash for gold pay 2 win. PLAY to win or don't play.
Originally posted by -aLpHa- After playing the game at the gamescom booth i was really shocked how bad the combat felt, i knew from several video presentations that the animations looked really sluggish but live playing it left a bad taste in my mouth. I can live with sub par graphics but fucking up a key gameplay component like combat i cannot forgive. And Bethesda should start hiring people who actually have a clue about making decent animations.
What level did your char have when you played?
TESO will fail for the same reason Neverwinter did.....it's no more elder scrolls then Neverwinter is D&D. These devs continue to make the same stupid mistakes year after year, yet refusing to learn from them.
Don't abandon your roots or you'll be strangled by them.