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Originally posted by Sephiroso Females can be more emotionally invested when gaming because of the way their brains are wired (feelers more often than thinkers) and I've seen some drama llamas in my gaming heydey of both sexes. I think a stereotype has formed around female games; a stereotype as essential to a well rounded guild as the slow-speaking rogue/assassin who's always stoned. But then, there are stereotypes for a reason. Just curious, what kind of jobs don't accept men? Just wondering your train of thought. Hope this question isn't coming across as inciting drama...
have you read nothing of all the posts you quoted? no one is saying the fault lies with women solely. we're saying is the GUYS who get stupid when a woman is nearby. so all that shit you're talking about we're pitting a stereotype against female gamers is just straight up bull.
yes someone may have cited an example or two about a female flirting and what not, but the majority was saying its the guys who just get stupid and wanna white knight any insult or w/e to the female and just shit goes south from there. like i said to jaleena, no one is saying females are bad players or anything, but when you introduce a female in a high competitive setting like raiding where you need everyone to work together for hours at a time and gear disputes could happen at anytime not to mention raid spots...it's almost asking for trouble.
I gotcha. It's for sure a two way street. It's an interesting idea, gender specific guilds. It can avoid potential problems and there are plenty of other guilds out there. Cheers!
Played: Ultima Online - DaoC - WoW -
Speaking as a former "Bob", the writing is on the wall. If you choose to see it, that is up to you. I have overthrown 2 guild leaders, 1 in SWTOR and 1 in WoW. Never did it to be a dick, I did it for the benefit of the guild as a whole.When a Guild has a leader who isn't qualified or inexperienced it hurts the guild as a whole. You did the right thing for the guild but not for you as a player.
The burning question that begs to be asked is"Why were there people who were "way better geared" than you?"
There are a couple possible reasons but none of them would be worth it. If you would have said, similarly geared or a bit better geared than you, I might have sympathy. If they were that far ahead of you on gear, then you went from being a Guild Leader to being carried. No one wants to carry anyone, pull your own weight or step out.. its only fair.
You need to start a Casual Guild and let it be known from the start that it will never be anything more.
Second Rule.. NEVER GIVE UP YOUR POWER. If you do, then your done. Force them to restart a new guild and rebuild your current one. Doing this keeps your manhood intact, as it stands yours is in your backpack.
a few thoughts from Da Skull
sometimes in guild politics a cult of personality kind of happens, I know something similar happened when I played Wow. I've actually been on both sides of this behaviour (as in, i've been in your position and in bob's). I dunno why but it's a phenomenon of guild politics in Wow and EQ2. (i never noticed it in EQ1, and in Eve people tend to be super skeptical of ny newcomer for months in any relevant corp) I would say though, that as lng as you had fun for the time you were GM, then dont call it wasted time! you had fun and enjoyed yourself. what more can you want in a game. try to keep it positive and seek people to play with that appreciate you.
as others mentioned it seems like your guild kinda got hijacked from a less intense guild to a more raiding oriented one. Dont lose sleep over it. you know what? the people in your old guild who are worth knowing will seek you out and you wont lose them as friends. the ones who dont were probly not worth it in the first place. and if you put your mind to it then within a week, blam, you will find a new guild to call home and new folks to get to know.
keep it positive. if da skull can do it you can too
RIP Ribbitribbitt you are missed, kid.
Currently Playing EVE, DFUW
Every gun that is made, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and not clothed.
Dwight D Eisenhower
My optimism wears heavy boots and is loud.
I'm sorry but this is still real life and as others have said if you saw this guy coming you should have did something about it. Hopefully you don't make the same mistake if you try the guild leadership again someday.
And btw there is noway in hell that I would have allowed them to vote me out. I would have kicked EVERYONE out before I did that, and kept the name just to stop them from taking it.
------------------------------You see, every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with their surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You spread to an area, and you multiply, and you multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.-Mr.Smith
Tiny is perhaps too extreme. Bob and hif followers were as much a part of the guild as anyone at that point.
I would reccomend two things in such situation:
1) promote him to leader but if and only if...
2) demand a permanent and unremovable officer position and raid spot.
Hmm, I feel sorry for you, OP, but it is also what drew me away from WoW many times. I come from Anarchy Online and was a member of my guild for over 10 years. I was one of the founders. Having a guild in AO is quite easy, get 6 guild-less people together, make a team and type /org create "Name". There you have your guild. You can define the ranks and everything like in WoW, but a major difference in AO is that your guild is more than a raidgroup and a bank. We had about 500 members over the years, many leaders (including me) and a lot to do. But it was never anyones guild, it was our guild. And this is the same for almost all other guilds in AO. We had our officers with different tasks and depending on how many active members we had at a time, also vice officers. There was one for raiding, one for pvp actions (sometimes this was split up into two parts), one recruitment officer, one for newbie/lowlevel training and advice, one for our guild city (yes, not only housing, but cities...), one for rp activities etc. . PvP-action was sometimes split up into land control pvp and regular pvp. Oh, and we had an elders council for our retired leaders. That's what I call a guild.
But it's also something I think is very hard to get in WoW. There's too much pressure due to the lockout timers (which I feel are ridiculous anyways) in WoW, the raid size limitation makes it even worse. For a raiding guild that leads to an A-Team and some leftovers, if there aren't enoug players for a second raid group. I can understand that this system needs something like an harder hierarchy and there's some sort of meaning to the guild leader position, but it wasn't fun for me. We had our fair share of accomplishments in AO, not only faction or server wide. In AO we were able to do what we wanted to do, when we wanted it, how often we wanted it (except some faction/server wide raids with a global timer of 18h at max) and with as many players as we wanted. As you can think, we really grew together over all this and there were no leftovers. Coming from this background, I can say, I really feel sorry for you for losing your guild (as founder and leader of an WoW-guild, I think you're the one most attached to it), but I also feel sorry for many WoW-players (hence, I don't say that this is impossible, but it's a lot harder to accomplish in WoW due to a lack of activities where all guildies can take part in at the same time) who won't experience the type of guild I and most other AO players enjoyed so much.
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet Running a guild like a democracy doesn't usually end well.
Looking for a family that you can game with for life? Check out Grievance at https://www.grievancegaming.org !
Originally posted by Robokapp Tiny is perhaps too extreme. Bob and hif followers were as much a part of the guild as anyone at that point. I would reccomend two things in such situation: 1) promote him to leader but if and only if... 2) demand a permanent and unremovable officer position and raid spot.
The only issue with this is once he has #1 there is no reason for him to keep his word on #2.
I have not read the whole thread, so i apologise if i am repeating anything that has already been said.
I think there is one very important thing that a lot of people setting up guilds forget to do before embarking on them and that is to do some basic planing and set up the rules. More importantly, decide what type of guild you want to be and stick to it. I have been in a few social guilds that have then attempted to be raiding guilds and it never works well at all.
Number one though, with all that said, remember that it is 'your' guild, not the members, not the raid leader, 'your' guild!!! If you don't stick with that, you are pretty much doomed to fail from the start.
The guild i am currently heading up has a core membership of six founders, the decision from the start was that no-one other than any of these six could ever be leaders, others could become officers, but never leaders. The guild rules were ingrained and followed to the letter, some ex-members may have seen that as harsh, but again, if you don't stick to what you have set up, you are doomed to fail.
The overriding factor though was, if you don't like the way we run things, there is the door, goodbye and good luck. Again, that wasn't to be nasty or harsh in any way, but that is the way we wanted to run our guild and if you didn't agree then you obviously don't fit in with the ethos that we have decided to run ourselves by and you would be better off finding someone who did match your own game play style.
In the case of the op's story, my attitude personally would have been to say to the 70%, feel free to go start your own guild with Bob as your leader and i do say that from experience when i learned the hard way that raid and social don't generally mix
It must be Thursday, i never could get the hang of Thursdays.
This sort of reminds me of my first raiding guild in WoW.
Our leader was pretty cool, and we would get server firsts on MC and BWL, then he stopped playing due to college. He eventually came back, but then someone else we recruited started leading the raids when he was gone. Eventually, the old leader wanted to be leader again, and that's when the guild fractured and split into two guilds.
Best thing to do is never give up guild leader.
Just rebuild another guild. You seemed capable of doing it the first time.
Lesson learned I guess. Definitely never give up guild leadership. Just let the raiders make their own guild if it comes to that. Everyone will be happier in the end.
Just make a new guild and be clear on the guilds goals. If people outgrow the guild just let them leave amicably.
Originally posted by PWN_FACE This is just how people are. It's sad but true. Loyalty is an extremely rare and precious thing in this world.
So sad, but true. I am a very loyal person (you saw this more back in the day MMOs from 1999-2004). Nowadays... while it still exists... it is also quite rare. Most guilds currently feel like revolving doors (although casualization of the genre helped in that regard immensely).
Love Robokapp's comments in this thread... good stuff. Bob's the Putin of WoW: make that into a meme! Love the example with Spartacus.
I have successfully run several guilds in several games. I have run them as dictatorships and democracies, however the one thing I have always done is kept the leadership in my name. Even when a democracy when decisions went against my view and others voices were listened to more, the ultimate power remained in my hands.
Originally posted by Solar_Prophet Originally posted by Jeleena Originally posted by Ridrith
We also had a number of rules that we enforced.
No female players.
Weekly Guild Meetings - In ventrilo.
Taking a break every week from raiding and playing other games with each other.
Red text. Unbelievable....this is 2013 we are talking about????
I noticed that too. While I understand the reasoning behind it (guys tend to get stupid over female players, and some females play off that like nobody's business) that doesn't make it any less sexist.
Personally I'd let female players in, but boot them and / or any guy who starts with the white knighting bullcrap at the first sign of trouble.
Green text. I think this is a better policy to have than not allowing women in at all since you at least give a chance to the female player to prove herself. I don't think that every female player should be branded a trouble maker from the get-go just because of a few bad apples. How do you even find out if we are female ? Those of us who are teamplayers don't make a habit of advertizing ourselves since we are 'just one of the guys'.
Besides the drama and stuff can happen regardless of who you got in your guild as we can see from the OP.
My suggestion to the OP, to change the subject slightly, is to next time try to nip the problem in the bud. Good leaders tend to anticipate things (not always possible since this comes with experience). Next time a 'Bob' appears in your guild, invite him to make a subsidiary guild linked to yours. There is no shame in having a casual/leveling guild associated with a hardcore raid guild. I think it is better than mixing the aims in one guild.
The other thing is to balance what you invest in the guild with what other players invest. Don't put too much of yourself into it because it is just a game. Instead, try to lead by example in the sense of stressing that other players help out others like you help them out. In WoW it is hard because a lot of people are pretty selfish and it is so easy to guildhop.
Good luck in the future. I hope you do continue with your ideas of leading a guild because a lot of guilds die pretty quickly so if yours worked for as long as it did, it is already sort of a rarity in today's WoW.
Playing MUDs and MMOs since 1994.
Originally posted by MmoFluff Things went well and a few months into it the guild had grown solid and many players had become friends and wanted to transform the guild into something more, into a raiding guild, to which i agreed, and despite my lack of experience in the leading role, i did my best and we even got a few nice completions and kills.
You lost leadership right there and hate to say it, deserved it.
You started out as one thing, with no experience and had a great time doing it and so did your guild, you never should have changed that and should have told others to create an off-shoot if they wanted something more.
Once a guild makes progression its focus, all loyalty and friendship is tossed out the window.
The guild I am in has several divisions set up. A Casual, a raiding, a PvP and an RP guild all under the same umbrella. This allows us to stay together yet at the same time, apart, if we want to focus on one thing, even while spread out over different games.
"People who tell you youre awesome are useless. No, dangerous.
They are worse than useless because you want to believe them. They will defend you against critiques that are valid. They will seduce you into believing you are done learning, or into thinking that your work is better than it actually is." ~Raph Koster http://www.raphkoster.com/2013/10/14/on-getting-criticism/
Seen that kinda thing happen in many games where a guild started out as one thing and all a sudden became another. Personally I never been big on raids or pvp. Never even started on raids and only pvp for fun every once in awhile. Once they start trying to change the focus from what your guild is set on to something else you should end it there if your their leader. Otherwise do like I do when I'm in a guild that decides to change and find a new one with a similar focus as I have. Done the whole leaving to find new guilds plenty of times and I've told others when i was leader that if they wanted to hardcore raid or pvp to simple leave and start their own and take any members that feel the same with them. Send out a mail saying that is your decision and offer to let them back if they want to refocus back on your guilds main purpose. I've found most people only raid or pvp for so long until their ready to go back casual if that is what they started out doing.
As others have said never give up leadership due to pressure and stick to your guns. I'd go so far as to tell them I want leadership back and that they should go make a raiding guild that can be associated with your guild.
Originally posted by aSynchro Transition from a casual to a raiding guild is horrible. Guys that were previously just happy to log and chat, doing retro or randoms together start to think in a different way: suddently everything is about gear and skill and optimising the team. It also often lead to a split between the guildies that remain casuals and the raiders... So yeah... I would strongly advice to any leader to really think about this before jumping the shark. If you decide to start raiding, be sure to write rules and fix goal: how many raiding nights, what kind of difficulty (lfr, flex, hc..) etc. If someone isn't following YOUR vision, eh! Just kick him from YOUR guild !
What worked best for me was a sepperate raiding group, away from the guilds....
its quite easy setting up a chatchannel for this where raiders can join in....
worked great in vanilla raiding for us, and in some other engame games i played...
Best MMO experiences : EQ(PvE), DAoC(PvP), WoW(total package) LOTRO (worldfeel) GW2 (Artstyle and animations and worlddesign) SWTOR (Story immersion) TSW (story) ESO (character advancement)
Some good advice in this thread, but there's something that needs to be said about guild security (as Blizzard changed some guild rules, and a serious one is petitioning them for guild control [returnees maybe unaware of this change]):
If you plan to make a guild have RL friends and/or family members as top officers if possible. This is done because they will be loyal to you unlike those online, and if there's any power plays you and they can assume control. That securely locks the administration of the guild, and if you need to go on vacation, or become ill, there's someone you *can* trust there to watch the guild. It also helps to keep an ambitious guildie from petitioning Blizzard for guild control and getting control if you're away for over 30 days (Blizzard now allows guild members without an active guild leader to petition for control of the guild -- why you want trusted people to have the top officer positions, as Blizzard will hand it to the next highest active officer. Never give the #2 position to someone you don't really know no matter how kind and helpful in game. That position must be someone you trust explicitly).
Only give yourself and them the power to promote or demote (the raid leader and recruiter positions don't need promotion/demotion privileges). That's to ensure that any promotion/demotion you are aware of and who did it. Malicious officers will invite and position enough supporters to undermine the guild, and you want to see what is happening before it gets out of hand.
If you're playing WoW without RL friends and/or family but don't want your guild ever to be in a situation that someone can power play or petition for control -- send everyone a notice that you will be expelling members due to whatever situation you're having. Be nice and give them a couple of days to find a new guild before closing to lessen the drama this can cause. It's drastic, but the rules have changed and this is the only way for someone without RL friend/family support to maintain control
Officer recruiting tips: No matter how informal or casual your guild is...always conduct formal interviews of officers and with at least 1 other officer as a witness. This sets the tone that you're in control, organized and got your ship in order (they too need to know if you aren't wasting their time). It also allows you time to look at their application; your witness to offer feedback; and check if they're not a BSer (which unfortunately a common behavior in WoW). If their application doesn't match up with their voice chat interview, ditch them no matter how good they look. You will be tempted to accept them, but don't fall for it. You want officers who don't need to pad their application, because if they're willing to pad, they will lie again and again and again. If that means taking in a lesser experienced player, so be it. A lesser experienced player who is honest is a much better asset, as he can always improve and doesn't need to overstate his importance. Secondly, the voice chat interview is also the time to judge if you can handle their personality, as some are quite aggressive. If you feel intimidated by his/her personality you may wish to accept another applicant, as you WILL knock heads sooner than latter, and those types of people are quite political and will fish for support in and out of the guild causing drama. Ideally you want someone who matches your personality and will at the most, if you have to raise your voice over them to be heard or to gain their attention, they're not a good match for you (others in a group will see it as a weakness that you can't gain group control, too). You always have to appear as the final authority, and always can command the attention (but don't make the mistake of acting like a tyrant. Remember a light hand of direction -- and carrying a big stick -- is more effective in maintaining discipline than being Ivan the Terrible!).
This happens and did to me as well not in wow but in lotro. So I hear ya and sadly rather then be an a-hole and close the guild I did end up leaving. I did not step down due to poor leadership it was more one guy joined added all his buddies and took over. After about 2 years I found myself in much the same position you are/were. Wish I could tell you otherwise but leaving is about the last hope you have to move on....
To you raid position: People with lower gear should be the 1st in line to take a class roll unless your toon can't "tank" or just can't "heal". Putting that guy with the best gear is nice for him and leaves people with lower gear scores at lower gear scores and gimp you and your guilds overall progress. It was said (not be me) "You are as strong as your weakest link"
The guild leader absolutely has to be the one of the most active people in a guild or the guild won't work. This often means huge time commitments especially when in a raiding guild. It's up to the guild leader also to provide direction of the guild. If the goal was to not become a serious raid guild, but a casual one then it's important that as a leader you are recruiting a set of hardcore players who are going to want to be a serious raid guild in the future.
If you fell behind in gear, you obviously weren't as active as other guildies and/or you didn't have a system in place that properly rewarded loot by attendance. By not being as well geared as others, bringing you onto a raid would have been a determinant to the raid progression. Nobody is obligated to get you gear when you are putting as much time and effort into progression as others.
And again, if you never intended your guild to become serious about raiding why would you recruit players who clearly are more active than you into the guild?
Raptr link because it's the cool new trend:
Originally posted by AIMonster If you fell behind in gear, you obviously weren't as active as other guildies and/or you didn't have a system in place that properly rewarded loot by attendance. By not being as well geared as others, bringing you onto a raid would have been a determinant to the raid progression. Nobody is obligated to get you gear when you are putting as much time and effort into progression as others.
Unless the GL is a Holy paladin and intellect plat has a 0.3% drop rate (and can finally see a shield drop 19 weeks later to even roll on it -- true story). -_-
Originally posted by JJ82 Once a guild makes progression its focus, all loyalty and friendship is tossed out the window.
That is probably the saddest truth of guilds in these types of games.
I played wow for a solid three years before slowing down to a more casual style. However before I did quit I witnessed my guild become absorbed not once, but twice to other guilds. In the beginning it was great. We bumbled through dungeons and some smaller raids like a bunch of sauntering drunks. Most of the time it was a game of trying to figure out who was sober enough to lead the runs. Probably some of the better times I can recall in my years of gaming, even if it was just WoW. There was hadly ever any hard feelings about wipes and we didnt overly obsess about gear so much as playing together.
Halfway through BC our GL and officers made a decision to disband and regroup into a larger and more focused guild. Big mistake. I didn't think about it until much later but we traded our in game friendships for gear and raid spots. The core of our guild was integrated as a second raid group and it worked fairly well until the seed of progression was planted into our minds. Our more casuals either just stopped logging in or slowly worked themselves out of the guild. The more dedicated ones stayed on and either sat around on the "B" team or shimmied up the ladder to the main raid group. We spent less time together and more time worrying about gear.
A few months after WotLK we reabsorbed into an even more raid focused guild. That spelled about the end of it for me. Most of the original members were hooked line and sinker on progression, thereby completing the downward spiral into the dark side of gaming. It felt more like a military training camp than anything enjoyable. I logged out and didnt come back until a month into Cata and after that spent most of my time after that as a ghost in the guild. I eventually just gave up completely after I heard about Pandas. The magic was gone and the friendships we had forged were as disposable as accidental looted grey gear.
Bit of a sad story I guess.
OP got screwed. Giving up the seat of power to another was as admirable as it was foolish in this instance. Should have told Bob to take himself and any other mutineers he had poisoned straight to the guild NPC. Go make your own guild Bob! Peace be with 'Ya and dont let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. You would have won respect from those who stuck around after the exodus and set yourself up for better success on the next round of recruitment. Instead you conceded to your own defeat and handed over the keys to the castle.