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SE should learn from fans how to make proper battle system

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  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Somewhere, CAPosts: 627Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZizouX
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.

    Reading comprehension fail.

     


    He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


    Bad players will always will be bad.

    Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

     

    BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist. 

    Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions. 

     

    BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.

    Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.

    This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy. 

     

    This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.

     

    If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil?  Yes, the content has become easier  only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.

     

    Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.

     

    AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon.  Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance.  If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.

     

    We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now  but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.

     

    Maybe that's because we were meant to do BC with a mix of Mythology and CT gear instead of the Philo and Mythology that we have access to? Nah, being an entire tier behind what the instance was balanced for during progression couldn't have anything to do with it...

    It took BG two months to down Twintania because of the gear deficit and because it wasn't nerfed yet. Pretty much as soon as they did down it, it got nerfed. Had they been doing progression on Twintania with the "re-balanced" Twister, I imagine they would have downed it much sooner.

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.

    Reading comprehension fail.

     


    He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


    Bad players will always will be bad.

    Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

    Hey, guess what ilvl gear we were supposed to be entering coil with. Full ilvl80. Guess what ilvl gear you have people trying to do coil with, 60-70(with a couple pieces even less than that).

     

    So wanna try that sentence again? Coil isn't hard, more people haven't killed Twintania not because its hard, its because they're either bad or undergeared. And at this point, its mostly just undergeared.

     

    Originally posted by ZizouX

    This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.

     

    If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil?  Yes, the content has become easier  only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.

     

    Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.

     

    AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon.  Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance.  If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.

     

    We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now  but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.

    So you're going to just sit there and ignore that SE came out and acknowledged that Twintania was bugged and took down the fight completely TWICE to fix the bugs. And you still sit there and ask why it took the first kill 2 months? IT WAS BUGGED. I typed the answer in all caps incase you didn't see me answer that question before.

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  • MagikrorriMMagikrorriM Binghamton, NYPosts: 176Member Uncommon

    There is not enough content in a new game, news at 11. If having a lot of content is what you need in a mmo, then I would suggest not touching a game for at least a year after release. 2.1 is 6 days away, and it's a very large patch, with lots of end game focus, take it for what you will. I just never understand how people expect 10+ years worth of content at release, it's crazy.

    Back to the topic at hand, the combat system is fine for a FF game. 

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by MagikrorriM

    There is not enough content in a new game, news at 11. If having a lot of content is what you need in a mmo, then I would suggest not touching a game for at least a year after release. 2.1 is 6 days away, and it's a very large patch, with lots of end game focus, take it for what you will. I just never understand how people expect 10+ years worth of content at release, it's crazy.

    Back to the topic at hand, the combat system is fine for a FF game. 

    Wrong. Games have plenty of content. They just streamline the leveling process so that people basically skip over most of the content in the game in a couple days. And this isn't even talking about the diehard 24/7 people who usually lvl to max first in the world/server/etc.

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  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Sephiroso
    Originally posted by MagikrorriM

    There is not enough content in a new game, news at 11. If having a lot of content is what you need in a mmo, then I would suggest not touching a game for at least a year after release. 2.1 is 6 days away, and it's a very large patch, with lots of end game focus, take it for what you will. I just never understand how people expect 10+ years worth of content at release, it's crazy.

    Back to the topic at hand, the combat system is fine for a FF game. 

    Wrong. Games have plenty of content. They just streamline the leveling process so that people basically skip over most of the content in the game in a couple days. And this isn't even talking about the diehard 24/7 people who usually lvl to max first in the world/server/etc.

    Pretty much this ^.

    Newer games, on average, actually tend to have far more content than the average game of 10-20 years ago. The biggest difference is that older games had multiple ways of dragging out the same amount of content & making it take longer to consume. Either they made the content much more difficult (forcing you to spend many hours, days, weeks, on the same boss), or they slowed down the pace at which you completed content via lengthy grinds, slow combat, etc.

    It's pretty obvious that gamers are now consuming content at a much accelerated rate than in the past. It used to take almost a year for players to hit max lvl. Now players are doing it in a weekend.

  • aesperusaesperus Hamshire, NVPosts: 5,128Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by markarius

    I found this post on FF14 beta tester forum. You should read it.

    Lengthy document, full of half-realized pointers.
     
    You have some decent points in there, but some terrible examples. For one you keep pointed to WoW as an example of a game with combat 'depth'. When in reality WoW is exactly what you are trying to argue against. It's a game with combat complexity, but lacks depth (something it shares with FFXIV). The options you get (if any) are often highly restricted, and shoe-horned into a simplified system. This problem has only been amplified over the years.
     
    Furthermore, your examples of how to improve some of the rotations for FFXIV are highly flawed. Adding procs for dmg / AoE do not add depth to combat, and in many ways already exist within FFXIV. Bards & BLMs especially have these in abundance.
     
    For more depth, the primary thing u need is choice, you're right about that; however that comes from build customization, and multi-use abilities. Two things FFXIV sorely lacks on the whole. To be honest, you can't add either of those features without fundamentally re-designing the combat for the game. Something no developer would actually do. That is something you would be more likely to see in a game like GW2, or a MOBA, but not in a traditional MMO.
     
    - I hate to say it, but people enjoy simplicity. They like the combat in FFXIV, regardless of it's flaws. Many players don't care about build creation, clever planning / strategy, etc. or they even get scared off by the prospect of it. This is one of the reasons why FFXIV will not have good PvP. However, this isn't that type of game. It's a game for people who enjoy the FF universe, and like raiding / PvE mechanic, over well-thought out combat mechanics.
  • FoomerangFoomerang Portland, ORPosts: 5,565Member Uncommon


    Originally posted by aesperus
    - I hate to say it, but people enjoy simplicity. They like the combat in FFXIV, regardless of it's flaws. Many players don't care about build creation, clever planning / strategy, etc. or they even get scared off by the prospect of it. This is one of the reasons why FFXIV will not have good PvP. However, this isn't that type of game. It's a game for people who enjoy the FF universe, and like raiding / PvE mechanic, over well-thought out combat mechanics.

    PvP has separate abilities that aren't available in PvE. So I think we should wait and see before judging either way.

  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALPosts: 1,242Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZizouX
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Originally posted by Xiaoki

     


    Originally posted by drivendawn
    Please prove this. You claim only gear matters in this game when I have played with random players that sucked because they either don't know how to play their class, don't have a good rotation, or cant keep a good rotation going while dodging AOE"s. Also you can't compare WoW's PvP to XIV's PvP when XIV's isn't out yet, plus PvP will have seperate skills from PvE. You compare this game in all your posts to WoW so you come off a little like a fan boy yourself. The rest of your post is opinion and to each his own on that.

    Reading comprehension fail.

     


    He said the disparity between good and amazing players is less than other MMOs so you counter with an anecdote of bad players?


    Bad players will always will be bad.

    Whatever dude reason a lot of people can't make it through Coil is not because they are bad but because it requires some skill.

     

    BC 1-5 has been done with PUG's. I don't think I ever heard of a PUG getting very far doing heroic progression raiding in WoW and we all know WoW is the easiest game to ever exist. 

    Well I know there have been but not many and if you have proof wow heroic raids have never been beat by pugs produce it until then your just making assumptions. 

     

    BC 1-4 gets done by PUG groups regularly on Behemoth and probably every other server. I'm not assuming anything. I can promise you that not a single PUG did ICC heroic mode raiding when it was progression. I promise not a single PUG did Yogg 0 when it was considered progression lol.

    Twintania pre-nerf was supposed to be extremely unforgiving and hard which is how it should have been. All but the extremely dedicated should have been banging their heads against that encounter for months. Instead, SE decided in their infinite wisdom to nerf it to the point that it can now be cleared by good PUG groups.

    This is not to mention the fact that there is literally zero progression beyond BC for the next several months. So, we're left with a game that has six somewhat challenging encounters with three more (presumably) on the way. 99% of the game is ridiculously easy. 

     

    This is Monday morning quarterbacking at its best... and hindsight is 20/20.

     

    If this was so easy, why did it take 2 months for the first free company to complete Coil?  Yes, the content has become easier  only because the mythology cap has allowed people to do said content in i90 gear to get i90 gear.

     

    Titan hardmode took the average person at least 20-30 attempts before downing, assuming they were not carried by people or didn't pay for a win.

     

    AK for a pug, is a hard dungeon.  Yes AK is easy when you overgear the instance.  If you're doing AK with i70 gear+ and it is tuned for i55... then you see why it's easy.

     

    We're 3.5 months into FFXIV... it's easy now  but it wasn't for the first 2 months.. that seems about right in terms of difficulty curve.

    This ^^ thankyou

  • NurvusNurvus Costa de CaparicaPosts: 18Member

    FFXIV:ARR's difficulty is deceptful.

    Class mechanics are so simple that it wouldn't surprise me if the development team was able to design encounters so tightly tuned that when you do beat them you're left with 1 HP.

    There's no room for an exceptional player to stand out.

    Your performance is as good as your gear and knowledge of the game mechanics.

     

    Those claiming WoW is the easiest MMO in history, I have to say I didn't lol'd, I actually laughed.

    Alot of encounters in WoW are undertuned, specially in the last 2 expansions, but throughout the history of WoW, alot of hard modes, and even some normal modes, have been the most interesting and challenging encounters I've seen out of any MMO, specially Ulduar and Ice Crown Citadel.

    To me, a gear check isn't challenge.

    A 30 minute endurance with average mechanics where the only real difficulty is avoiding making a single mistake is still not challenge. It's yet another gearcheck.

    Vanilla WoW had alot of boring, frustrating gearchecks.

    But Burning Crusade and Lich King had amazing encounters.

  • dreamscaperdreamscaper Somewhere, NCPosts: 1,582Member Uncommon

    The current combat system just feels broken to me. It's like somebody took WoW's combat system, removed the pieces that made it work well, then glued it back together.

     

    I'm personally in the minority that feels that they should have taken 1.0's original combat system and fixed it instead of the kneejerk reaction replacement we received. Yes, it was spammy, but that would have been relatively easy to fix compared to the complete rewrite they replaced it with.

     

    I wanted to stick with this game, but I can't do it. I'm so tired of these uninspired, GCD-based gear-treadmills chomping after a piece of the WoW pie. Sub cancelled, reinstalled Eve Online and Wakfu.

    <3

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    The current combat system just feels broken to me. It's like somebody took WoW's combat system, removed the pieces that made it work well, then glued it back together.

     

    I'm personally in the minority that feels that they should have taken 1.0's original combat system and fixed it instead of the kneejerk reaction replacement we received. Yes, it was spammy, but that would have been relatively easy to fix compared to the complete rewrite they replaced it with.

     

    I wanted to stick with this game, but I can't do it. I'm so tired of these uninspired, GCD-based gear-treadmills chomping after a piece of the WoW pie. Sub cancelled, reinstalled Eve Online and Wakfu.

    They should have just used FFXI's combat.(before abyssea) FFXI may have lost sight of what it once was, but its still up and running and hasn't been forced to go f2p yet. If they made FFXIV an updated and improved version of what FFXI USED to be, you wouldn't seen many people complaining. But what we got was a flawed WoW clone dressed up in FF clothing.

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  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Somewhere, CAPosts: 627Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by dreamscaper

    The current combat system just feels broken to me. It's like somebody took WoW's combat system, removed the pieces that made it work well, then glued it back together.

     

    I'm personally in the minority that feels that they should have taken 1.0's original combat system and fixed it instead of the kneejerk reaction replacement we received. Yes, it was spammy, but that would have been relatively easy to fix compared to the complete rewrite they replaced it with.

     

    I wanted to stick with this game, but I can't do it. I'm so tired of these uninspired, GCD-based gear-treadmills chomping after a piece of the WoW pie. Sub cancelled, reinstalled Eve Online and Wakfu.

     

    I'm not sure I'd call it broken. It's just extremely shallow by comparison. I don't know where they went looking for inspiration for class design, but it feels very dated and uninspired to me. Also, having almost zero choice in talents or something similar hurts the game IMO. I personally like looking through talent trees and seeing the various combinations. Even if there is a build that does 3% more DPS and becomes the "best" spec, the illusion of choice is a powerful one. 

    Here, you get a choice of five abilities from other classes, but sometimes they are totally useless like having an accuracy and dexterity boost on a job that has absolutely no use for dexterity. Other times they are so obviously the best choice that there's no room to choose anything else. The other "choice" you get to make is stat allocation, which is class specific, so you really just end up pumping all of them into your main stat. They don't even pretend to let players make a choice in this game. 

     

  • NurvusNurvus Costa de CaparicaPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Here, you get a choice of five abilities from other classes, but sometimes they are totally useless like having an accuracy and dexterity boost on a job that has absolutely no use for dexterity. Other times they are so obviously the best choice that there's no room to choose anything else. The other "choice" you get to make is stat allocation, which is class specific, so you really just end up pumping all of them into your main stat. They don't even pretend to let players make a choice in this game. 

     

    The choice for cross-class abiltiies is indeed a fallacy - you always take a specific combination for each class.

    I made my document well before the launch. Way before.

    I kept updating it for at least 2 months, but the forums were filled with white knights saying the gameplay is fine, and just wait for launch. Jobs and end game will fix it.

    The irony, is that  those same white knights would say WoW's combat system sucks - despite ARR's combat system being a photoshop'd WoW ripoff!

  • ZizouXZizouX Burbank, CAPosts: 670Member
    Originally posted by Nurvus
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Here, you get a choice of five abilities from other classes, but sometimes they are totally useless like having an accuracy and dexterity boost on a job that has absolutely no use for dexterity. Other times they are so obviously the best choice that there's no room to choose anything else. The other "choice" you get to make is stat allocation, which is class specific, so you really just end up pumping all of them into your main stat. They don't even pretend to let players make a choice in this game. 

     

    The choice for cross-class abiltiies is indeed a fallacy - you always take a specific combination for each class.

    I made my document well before the launch. Way before.

    I kept updating it for at least 2 months, but the forums were filled with white knights saying the gameplay is fine, and just wait for launch. Jobs and end game will fix it.

    The irony, is that  those same white knights would say WoW's combat system sucks - despite ARR's combat system being a photoshop'd WoW ripoff!

    Choice comes in when you go from job to job on the same character.  Your "specs" are jobs.  If I want to tank, I can be Warrior or Paladin.  If I want ot heal, I have Scholar and White mage... if I want to dps I can Dragoon, Monk, Smn, or Bard... all of which are DRASTICALLY different.  Monk and SMN have their own special mechanics... (Greeased lightning vs. Aetherflow).

     

    In other games you picked one class and had 1-3 roles you could fill... the jobs system in FFXIV does that.  However, now you don't have to redo the entire story... or you have to do is level up.  

     

    It's ot a perfect system, but many people love it.  I am one of them.   I'm tired of talent trees, I don't need a WoW clone.  FFXIV may have many similaties to other mmos, but a Wow clone it is not.

     

  • SephirosoSephiroso Marietta, GAPosts: 1,160Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZizouX
    Originally posted by Nurvus
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Here, you get a choice of five abilities from other classes, but sometimes they are totally useless like having an accuracy and dexterity boost on a job that has absolutely no use for dexterity. Other times they are so obviously the best choice that there's no room to choose anything else. The other "choice" you get to make is stat allocation, which is class specific, so you really just end up pumping all of them into your main stat. They don't even pretend to let players make a choice in this game. 

     

    The choice for cross-class abiltiies is indeed a fallacy - you always take a specific combination for each class.

    I made my document well before the launch. Way before.

    I kept updating it for at least 2 months, but the forums were filled with white knights saying the gameplay is fine, and just wait for launch. Jobs and end game will fix it.

    The irony, is that  those same white knights would say WoW's combat system sucks - despite ARR's combat system being a photoshop'd WoW ripoff!

    Choice comes in when you go from job to job on the same character.  Your "specs" are jobs.  If I want to tank, I can be Warrior or Paladin.  If I want ot heal, I have Scholar and White mage... if I want to dps I can Dragoon, Monk, Smn, or Bard... all of which are DRASTICALLY different.  Monk and SMN have their own special mechanics... (Greeased lightning vs. Aetherflow).

     

    In other games you picked one class and had 1-3 roles you could fill... the jobs system in FFXIV does that.  However, now you don't have to redo the entire story... or you have to do is level up.  

     

    It's ot a perfect system, but many people love it.  I am one of them.   I'm tired of talent trees, I don't need a WoW clone.  FFXIV may have many similaties to other mmos, but a Wow clone it is not.

     

    That's not choice, that's called a class system. You're getting the two confused. Whether you can be all classes on 1 character or have to make alts to be other classes doesn't have anything to do with choice(in the context that we're using the word).

     

    For example look at the game Eden Eternal, a f2p game made by aeria games. They have the same class system, all classes on 1 character. Except they at least expanded on that with character customization(this is what we mean when we say choice) by allowing you to choose different "talents" for each class. Some made some skills stronger, some made others faster, some just made the class harder to kill. But the person had a CHOICE in how they built their character.

     

    Find yourself pvp'ing alot and want more survivability? You could get a talent that boosted your defensive abilities. Find yourself mvp'ing alot and need more firepower? You could get a talent that boosted your offensive abilities. Find yourself using 1 or 2 abilities almost all the time? You could get a talent that boosted those abilities.

     

    FFXIV ARR has none of the above. There is no choice. There barely even a semblance of choice.

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  • monochrome19monochrome19 Chicago, ILPosts: 453Member Uncommon

    All of you seem to think...

    Strategic Combat =/= Action Combat

    Strategic Combat = Slow & Repetitive

    Neither of these are true however. An action combat game can require just as much strategic thinking if not more because you have to think faster in real time. When I was in the FF beta I was incredibly annoyed at how slow the combat was, it put me to sleep. But, after the game released I grudgingly trudged through it nonetheless. And now? I rather like it. I does get quicker as you rise in level and can become quite complex.

  • simsalabim77simsalabim77 Somewhere, CAPosts: 627Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by ZizouX
    Originally posted by Nurvus
    Originally posted by simsalabim77
    Here, you get a choice of five abilities from other classes, but sometimes they are totally useless like having an accuracy and dexterity boost on a job that has absolutely no use for dexterity. Other times they are so obviously the best choice that there's no room to choose anything else. The other "choice" you get to make is stat allocation, which is class specific, so you really just end up pumping all of them into your main stat. They don't even pretend to let players make a choice in this game. 

     

    The choice for cross-class abiltiies is indeed a fallacy - you always take a specific combination for each class.

    I made my document well before the launch. Way before.

    I kept updating it for at least 2 months, but the forums were filled with white knights saying the gameplay is fine, and just wait for launch. Jobs and end game will fix it.

    The irony, is that  those same white knights would say WoW's combat system sucks - despite ARR's combat system being a photoshop'd WoW ripoff!

    Choice comes in when you go from job to job on the same character.  Your "specs" are jobs.  If I want to tank, I can be Warrior or Paladin.  If I want ot heal, I have Scholar and White mage... if I want to dps I can Dragoon, Monk, Smn, or Bard... all of which are DRASTICALLY different.  Monk and SMN have their own special mechanics... (Greeased lightning vs. Aetherflow).

     

    In other games you picked one class and had 1-3 roles you could fill... the jobs system in FFXIV does that.  However, now you don't have to redo the entire story... or you have to do is level up.  

     

    It's ot a perfect system, but many people love it.  I am one of them.   I'm tired of talent trees, I don't need a WoW clone.  FFXIV may have many similaties to other mmos, but a Wow clone it is not.

     

     

    Yeah, good luck gearing more than one at endgame due to the character wide lockouts and caps. It's faster to gear up a fresh character than it is to gear a second job on one character. The character wide lockouts and caps basically spits in the face of the armory system IMO. A single class in WoW has more complexity and depth than every job in XIV. I haven't ever played a more boring tank than XIV's version of Paladin lol...

  • NurvusNurvus Costa de CaparicaPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by ZizouX

    Choice comes in when you go from job to job on the same character.  Your "specs" are jobs.  If I want to tank, I can be Warrior or Paladin.  If I want ot heal, I have Scholar and White mage... if I want to dps I can Dragoon, Monk, Smn, or Bard... all of which are DRASTICALLY different.  Monk and SMN have their own special mechanics... (Greeased lightning vs. Aetherflow).

     

    In other games you picked one class and had 1-3 roles you could fill... the jobs system in FFXIV does that.  However, now you don't have to redo the entire story... or you have to do is level up.  

     

    It's ot a perfect system, but many people love it.  I am one of them.   I'm tired of talent trees, I don't need a WoW clone.  FFXIV may have many similaties to other mmos, but a Wow clone it is not.

     

    As Sephiroso indicated, having all classes on one character or having one character per class has nothing to do with choice.

    Choice is having various ways to play each class.

     

    WoW launched with 9 classes and now has 11 classes; and each Class has 3 specs (4 as druid).

    So WoW launched with 27 specs and now has 34 specs.

    WoW also launched with Talents and now also has Glyphs, both of which are Class-wide tools to customize your Spec, allowing a single Spec to be played in many different EFFICIENT ways.

    Furthermore, most Talents and Glyphs in WoW are meaningful choices.

     

    The following may come as a surprise, but FFXIV:ARR isn't competing with Vanilla WoW, it's competing with Mists of Pandaria.

    If you design a game to compete with the past, you'll be outdated at launch.

     

    ARR? It launched with 8 classes; and each Class has only 1 job (2 as Arcanist).

    So ARR has 9 jobs (and that's fine).

    Then, you have Cross-Class Skills and Stat Allocation, which are tools to customize your Class/Job.

    Unfortunately, Cross-Class Skills and Stat Allocation aren't meaningful choices, as each Class/Job pretty much has a clear optimal combination.

    Variations of your Cross-Class Skill choices only occur (if at all) depending on the content you are running, not your playstyle.

     

    If you want to add Gathering and Crafting Classes to the mix, both ARR and WoW have 3 Gathering and 8 Production, but WoW also has 4 Secondary (one of them with a pretty cool Hot & Cold minigame, something that SquareSoft did 10x better in FFIX but didn't bother porting it to FFXIV:ARR).

     

    Add to all of the above the fact that in WoW you have plenty of intertwined class mechanics, often disrupting repetitive rotation with events that require quick thinking (don't mistake this for twitch or reflexes), and it becomes clear that ARR has absolutely nothing on WoW regarding combat system.

    ARR has less classes, less specs per class, and less depth per spec.

    ---

    And note, I'm not here preaching about how great WoW is or how bad FFXIV:ARR is.

    I'm just giving you guys a dose of reality. Stop placing FFXIV:ARR on a pedestal.

    SE had over 10 years worth of examples out there to learn from!

    One would think they could come up with a deeper combat system.

  • HyanmenHyanmen KolkkalaPosts: 5,354Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nurvus

    As Sephiroso indicated, having all classes on one character or having one character per class has nothing to do with choice.

    Choice is having various ways to play each class.

    It has nothing to do with the choice to be able to play all classes on one character? This is indeed a choice that FFXIV:ARR offers to the player and something that WoW has never been able to accomplish. You can speak lowly of said choice but that is nothing but a personal opinion of yours.

    You can tout about giving us a dose of reality (and in the case of classes and specs in the two games, you are correct) but what you don't get to do is claim that your definition of choice is the only real definition.

    Amusingly you also combine class system and combat system like the two are one and the same. FFXIV:ARR's combat system is not just a stripped down version of WoW's combat, it is a different style of combat altogether.

    Anyone can look up the classes and specs of ARR and compare it to WoW but nobody can just copy and paste WoW's combat to FFXIV's iteration without getting way off the track in the process.

    "Housing is standard in most mmo's."
    - yolteotl79

  • drivendawndrivendawn montgomery, ALPosts: 1,242Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Hyanmen
    Originally posted by Nurvus

    As Sephiroso indicated, having all classes on one character or having one character per class has nothing to do with choice.

    Choice is having various ways to play each class.

    It has nothing to do with the choice to be able to play all classes on one character? This is indeed a choice that FFXIV:ARR offers to the player and something that WoW has never been able to accomplish. You can speak lowly of said choice but that is nothing but a personal opinion of yours.

    You can tout about giving us a dose of reality (and in the case of classes and specs in the two games, you are correct) but what you don't get to do is claim that your definition of choice is the only real definition.

    Amusingly you also combine class system and combat system like the two are one and the same. FFXIV:ARR's combat system is not just a stripped down version of WoW's combat, it is a different style of combat altogether.

    Anyone can look up the classes and specs of ARR and compare it to WoW but nobody can just copy and paste WoW's combat to FFXIV's iteration without getting way off the track in the process.

    Exactly, not to mention each class will eventually be like arcanist and have 2 job branch offs. I noticed they bring up PvP comparisons as well yet we don't know enough about XIV'S PvP skills to make any.

    Oh and with more expansions comes more lvls , skills and more ways to play. WoW has had much more time to do this, and given time XIV will do the same.

  • NurvusNurvus Costa de CaparicaPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by Hyanmen
    Originally posted by Nurvus

    As Sephiroso indicated, having all classes on one character or having one character per class has nothing to do with choice.

    Choice is having various ways to play each class.

    It has nothing to do with the choice to be able to play all classes on one character? This is indeed a choice that FFXIV:ARR offers to the player and something that WoW has never been able to accomplish. You can speak lowly of said choice but that is nothing but a personal opinion of yours.

    You can tout about giving us a dose of reality (and in the case of classes and specs in the two games, you are correct) but what you don't get to do is claim that your definition of choice is the only real definition.

    Amusingly you also combine class system and combat system like the two are one and the same. FFXIV:ARR's combat system is not just a stripped down version of WoW's combat, it is a different style of combat altogether.

    Anyone can look up the classes and specs of ARR and compare it to WoW but nobody can just copy and paste WoW's combat to FFXIV's iteration without getting way off the track in the process.

    If you take my statements within their original context, they make alot more sense.

    From a Character Creation perspective, the ability to have all Classes on one character is certainly an additional choice compared to WoW - you can dedicate yourself to a single character and still have access to all Classes, or have a different character per class, and that is great.

    But when I mentioned choice, that's not what I was talking about.

    I was talking about class and combat system depth, so it pertained to the fact that having all classes on one character doesn't add choices in variety of gameplay, when compared to WoW.

     

    And your statement that FFXIV:ARR's combat system is a different style of combat altogether, compared to WoW, simply baffles me.

    If you're talking from a visual point of view, you're absolutely correct.

    But apart from characteristic FF visual cues like aggro lines, or skill impact effects, the core of the combat is a carbon copy of WoW.

    From Tab Targetting, to Auto-Attacks and Skills occurring simultaneously, to Cooldown driven Skills - the only real exception, is the Limit Break system...

    Despite having two resources: MP and TP, most classes/jobs only use one.

    In WoW, most classes actually use two resources heavily, one of them usually being Mana or Energy, while also having several mechanics that involve interaction with procs, buffs, debuffs, and/or stacks, which translates into a great deal of meaningful decision-making in the heat of combat, offering plenty of skillful play opportunities that help distinguish a good from a great player.

    By contrast, in FFXIV:ARR, everything regarding strategy is set pre-combat.

    When you engage, you already know exactly how your Rotation will play out, as there's really no meaningful decision-making regarding ability usage during an encounter.

    Even when encounter mechanics call for specific behaviors, those are settled before engaging.

     

    A few very important points to consider:

    - For each 1 system meant to offer combat/class/job customization in ARR, WoW has 3...

    Build: ARR has Cross-Class Skills, WoW has Talents, Glyphs and Gathering/Crafting Profession Combat Perks.

    Gear: ARR has Materia; WoW has Gems, Enchants and Reforging

    - To make it worse, in ARR, the systems meant to offer combat/class/job customization offer little to no customization in practice because there is a clear optimal setup for each job

    - So it's less customization systems, less options per system, and less depth per option.

     

    What I'm saying in all of this, is that despite FFXIV:ARR having potential to surpass WoW, it's terribly behind it in class system, combat mechanics and overall feel of progression, and having white knights saying it's fine, won't help SE snap out of its daydreaming.

  • rykim86rykim86 winnipeg, MBPosts: 236Member

    Combats fine.  And it's really just one part of the equation for the title.

    And please don't try and push the garbage that there's some sort of standard for combat mechanics.  I liked FFXIs combat, I liked WoWs combat, I liked GW2s combat, I liked DCUOs combat, I liked EVEs "combat" etc...  

    One isn't better than the other, it's just different way to approach the same end game.

  • NurvusNurvus Costa de CaparicaPosts: 18Member
    Originally posted by rykim86

    Combats fine.  And it's really just one part of the equation for the title.

    And please don't try and push the garbage that there's some sort of standard for combat mechanics.  I liked FFXIs combat, I liked WoWs combat, I liked GW2s combat, I liked DCUOs combat, I liked EVEs "combat" etc...  

    One isn't better than the other, it's just different way to approach the same end game.

    Fair enough, and while I agree with you on all the examples you provided - and I'd add Tera Online to your examples -  I think FFXIV:ARR, SWTOR and Rift all have a combat style far too similar to WoW to be considered a unique style.

    That is the sole reason I'm insisting so much comparing FFXIV:ARR to WoW.

    Mind you I've stopped playing WoW as well, but for different reasons.

    So many tab target/auto-attack games came to "de-throne" WoW, and all of them failed horrible in everything except graphics.

    But alas, it's my opinion.

  • HyanmenHyanmen KolkkalaPosts: 5,354Member Uncommon
    Originally posted by Nurvus

    If you take my statements within their original context, they make alot more sense.

    From a Character Creation perspective, the ability to have all Classes on one character is certainly an additional choice compared to WoW - you can dedicate yourself to a single character and still have access to all Classes, or have a different character per class, and that is great.

    But when I mentioned choice, that's not what I was talking about.

    I was talking about class and combat system depth, so it pertained to the fact that having all classes on one character doesn't add choices in variety of gameplay, when compared to WoW.

     

    And your statement that FFXIV:ARR's combat system is a different style of combat altogether, compared to WoW, simply baffles me.

    If you're talking from a visual point of view, you're absolutely correct.

    But apart from characteristic FF visual cues like aggro lines, or skill impact effects, the core of the combat is a carbon copy of WoW.

    From Tab Targetting, to Auto-Attacks and Skills occurring simultaneously, to Cooldown driven Skills - the only real exception, is the Limit Break system...

    Despite having two resources: MP and TP, most classes/jobs only use one.

    In WoW, most classes actually use two resources heavily, one of them usually being Mana or Energy, while also having several mechanics that involve interaction with procs, buffs, debuffs, and/or stacks, which translates into a great deal of meaningful decision-making in the heat of combat, offering plenty of skillful play opportunities that help distinguish a good from a great player.

    By contrast, in FFXIV:ARR, everything regarding strategy is set pre-combat.

    When you engage, you already know exactly how your Rotation will play out, as there's really no meaningful decision-making regarding ability usage during an encounter.

    Even when encounter mechanics call for specific behaviors, those are settled before engaging.

     

    A few very important points to consider:

    - For each 1 system meant to offer combat/class/job customization in ARR, WoW has 3...

    Build: ARR has Cross-Class Skills, WoW has Talents, Glyphs and Gathering/Crafting Profession Combat Perks.

    Gear: ARR has Materia; WoW has Gems, Enchants and Reforging

    - To make it worse, in ARR, the systems meant to offer combat/class/job customization offer little to no customization in practice because there is a clear optimal setup for each job

    - So it's less customization systems, less options per system, and less depth per option.

     

    What I'm saying in all of this, is that despite FFXIV:ARR having potential to surpass WoW, it's terribly behind it in class system, combat mechanics and overall feel of progression, and having white knights saying it's fine, won't help SE snap out of its daydreaming.

    The point is that both are legitimate choices to make, and I still feel that you failed to get this point across. If you think that one is more meaningful than the other then that's okay but personal opinions aside, it's a tough argument to sell.

    Every system and mechanic can be stripped of it's "meat and potatoes" leaving only a core behind that is extremely similar across games in general. You may as well state now that FFXIV:ARR is all about swords and magics and thus a carbon copy of WoW. We can indeed go this far but the farther we go the sillier the comparison becomes.

    ARR has cooldown driven skills but most skills are not cooldown driven. Most skills are locked in GCD but other than that they can be used at will and have no individual cooldowns. If this is the way WoW works today then the comparison is just. If WoW is different then I don't see the similarity. Moreover either tab-targeting makes the game a carbon copy of WoW or it makes the game an MMORPG. Perhaps every turn based JRPG is a Final Fantasy clone too, instead of a game of the JRPG genre? You can think that way, but let's not act like this mindset is much more than an interpretation. When does a gameplay mechanic become a part of the genre instead of being the exclusive property of a single game in the genre? I would say just coming out and stating that the mechanic feels boring to you perhaps due to having a lot of experience of MMO's would result in a much better understanding of the issue on both sides.

    As far as decision making in the heat of combat I would be surprised if it boils down to more than X happens = react with Y and to say that this doesn't happen in ARR's combat scenarios especially considering the lack of individual cooldowns makes me doubtful whether you have experienced ARR's combat on the level that you speak of WoW's combat (endgame).

    Since you keep mentioning crafting/gathering in your class system comparison but then for some reason fail to continue the debate to include the crafting/gathering gameplay scenario like you do with the combat classes then I guess I must make the comparisons. WoW's crafting/gathering gameplay and/or depth has nothing on ARR's gameplay and the choices you have to make during the crafting process. Even something as simple as a meaningful storyline for each profession is too much to ask for. It certainly helps that money has more value in this game than it does in WoW, further contributing to making the professions more relevant.

    Lastly since you are not mentioning it in your posts choices are irrelevant if they are not meaningful choices. This boils down to preserving class balance which is easier to accomplish with less variables (classes and specs) especially initially. Meaningful choices also tend to boil down to aesthetical differences between the classes (in WoW's case the "homogenization syndrome") and if we start discussing the aesthetics side of the class system then WoW falls flat on its face due to it's age. Of course WoW should still manage to offer more mechanically meaningful class choices to the player than ARR but when many of the "choices" you listed (as simply a class/spec comparison between the two) come down to aesthetical differences then the difference is hardly as big as you are making it out to be. WoW has more (uglier) trinkets to play with but mechanically not as much as you make it sound like.

    "Housing is standard in most mmo's."
    - yolteotl79

  • RaquisRaquis hartenbosPosts: 536Member Common

    it took final fhantacy 10 years just to get rid of turn based combat.

    they are riged but cause they have millions of players they think their games are good just like world of warcraft.

    WOW send me a mail that said you can get wow for discount and I replied that I am not going to sub. to a old game and why cant I jump directly into the new expantions. they replied do you want to unsubscribe to our news letter.

    also riged old farts just get me TITAN and no subscriptiom fee please.

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